Link, or it's just hearsay. What I do see them saying is that they want to invest heavily into enhancing the story, that's why all these posters in this thread - like you - are riled up about, not about the "phat lewt".
Sigh. And when I find it and post, 1/2 a dozen posters wil say"I don't care". Like you are saying right now. You don't care about the truth.
So, to hell with that. Let one of the experts post it - after they compose some excuse to go along with it.
Oh, don't be a pussy by backing out. Your argument "Bioware is all about the phat lewt" was irrelevant to this discussion, and you know it. It was nothing more than a weak trick to prove that "people like me" don't care about the truth, and that you do.
To hell with that. If you don't like where Bioware is going with ToR and want to go on ranting how "wrong they're doing things" even without giving them any benefit of the doubt, then why don't you just give up on ToR and move on? Clearly you don't like the game even while it's not even out yet. You've been saying in other posts that people shouldn't buy into any hype but wait when the game or beta arrives, but you've been doing exactly the same, only from the other side: condemning and scorning games before even a beta has arrived.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
2. Players should be PLAYING as much of the story as possible, not reading or listening to it.
reference: Games Developers Conference, San Fransisco, CA May 2010 - Rob Pardo.
Apparently 2 different egos, but this one already made the hit, let's see if all those on line players are paying to watch movies like Bioware thinks.
I agree, let's wait and see how Bioware's game turns out. Everything before the game or beta are being played is just idle speculation, we don't know yet at the moment how things will play out.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Link, or it's just hearsay. What I do see them saying is that they want to invest heavily into enhancing the story, that's why all these posters in this thread - like you - are riled up about, not about the "phat lewt".
Sigh. And when I find it and post, 1/2 a dozen posters wil say"I don't care". Like you are saying right now. You don't care about the truth.
So, to hell with that. Let one of the experts post it - after they compose some excuse to go along with it.
Oh, don't be a pussy by backing out. Your argument "Bioware is all about the phat lewt" was irrelevant to this discussion, and you know it. It was nothing more than a weak trick to prove that "people like me" don't care about the truth, and that you do.
To hell with that. If you don't like where Bioware is going with ToR and want to go on ranting how "wrong they're doing things" even without giving them any benefit of the doubt, then why don't you just give up on ToR and move on? Clearly you don't like the game even while it's not even out yet.
C. as much as you give them the benifit of the doubt, I ask you in all honesty ...
When a new MMO launches the developpers behind it come with with a focused selling point... !
I said it before: War had RvR (and PvP) as a focus point, AoC had the realistic graphics and non fantasy setting, Lotro had Middle Earth, TR was going to be a space shooter/adventure.
After reading (yet again the same comments in this reference) what do you see as their main focus ?
Are they talking about big space battles? are they talking about huge PvP mechanics between planets? are they talking about raiding the Death Star?
You see those are BIG SW themes...
No they talk about their big budget and how simply everything will be story telling to individual players and voice over recording and in game movies ...like they did in a complete different sector of gameplay: solo adventures.
So how would you describe their MAIN focus point ... a few months away before Beta opens?
And after 5 years of ... getting ... "what we had", isn't it normal people react ?
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Oh, don't be a pussy by backing out. Your argument "Bioware is all about the phat lewt" was irrelevant to this discussion,
I did not say that, so don't you dare put it in quotes. I said one of the devs said the game was about phat lewt.
You made a claim that Bioware was going away from the typical MMO design. I posted something that indicates that that claim was mistaken.
and you know it. It was nothing more than a weak trick to prove that "people like me" don't care about the truth, and that you do.
To hell with that. If you don't like where Bioware is going with ToR and want to go on ranting how "wrong they're doing things" even without giving them any benefit of the doubt, then why don't you just give up on ToR and move on? Clearly you don't like the game even while it's not even out yet. You've been saying in other posts that people shouldn't buy into any hype but wait when the game or beta arrives, but you've been doing exactly the same, only from the other side: condemning and scorning games before even a beta has arrived.
I judge based on the information available. If I see something I like, then I will comment on that, as well.
Everyone here is judging the game. One way or the other.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Link, or it's just hearsay. What I do see them saying is that they want to invest heavily into enhancing the story, that's why all these posters in this thread - like you - are riled up about, not about the "phat lewt".
Sigh. And when I find it and post, 1/2 a dozen posters wil say"I don't care". Like you are saying right now. You don't care about the truth.
So, to hell with that. Let one of the experts post it - after they compose some excuse to go along with it.
Oh, don't be a pussy by backing out. Your argument "Bioware is all about the phat lewt" was irrelevant to this discussion, and you know it. It was nothing more than a weak trick to prove that "people like me" don't care about the truth, and that you do.
To hell with that. If you don't like where Bioware is going with ToR and want to go on ranting how "wrong they're doing things" even without giving them any benefit of the doubt, then why don't you just give up on ToR and move on? Clearly you don't like the game even while it's not even out yet.
C. as much as you give them the benifit of the doubt, I ask you in all honesty ...
When a new MMO launches the developpers behind it come with with a focused selling point... !
I said it before: War had RvR (and PvP) as a focus point, AoC had the realistic graphics and non fantasy setting, Lotro had Middle Earth, TR was going to be a space shooter/adventure.
After reading (yet again the same comments in this reference) what do you see as their main focus ?
Are they talking about big space battles? are they talking about huge PvP mechanics between planets? are they talking about raiding the Death Star? (WTF?)
You see those are BIG SW themes...
No they talk about their big budget and how simply everything will be story telling to individual players and voice over recording and in game movies ...like they did in a complete different sector of gameplay: solo adventures.
So how would you describe their MAIN focus point ... a few months away before Beta opens?
And after 5 years of ... getting ... "what we had", isn't it normal people react ?
The fact that you don't understand why they're doing all this is starting to amaze me, even after all the explinations.
This is so silly. A MMO needs to be a world, it needs to be something real. At the very least, it needs to have content that is not a linear storyline. This is where Bioware is going wrong, I think.
Do not misunderstand me. Bioware has made some of the best single-player RPGs I have ever played. But it seems apparent now that they are trying to translate that concept into a MMO. I do not think it will work. I am, however, trying to reserve my judgement.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I agree, let's wait and see how Bioware's game turns out. Everything before the game or beta are being played is just idle speculation, we don't know yet at the moment how things will play out.
If idle speculation bothers you, then why are you here? If it bothers you, then stop talking and reading about it.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
C. as much as you give them the benifit of the doubt, I ask you in all honesty ...
When a new MMO launches the developpers behind it come with with a focused selling point... !
I said it before: War had RvR (and PvP) as a focus point, AoC had the realistic graphics and non fantasy setting, Lotro had Middle Earth, TR was going to be a space shooter/adventure.
After reading (yet again the same comments in this reference) what do you see as their main focus ?
Are they talking about big space battles? are they talking about huge PvP mechanics between planets? are they talking about raiding the Death Star?
You see those are BIG SW themes...
No they talk about their big budget and how simply everything will be story telling to individual players and voice over recording and in game movies ...like they did in a complete different sector of gameplay: solo adventures.
So how would you describe their MAIN focus point ... a few months away before Beta opens?
And after 5 years of ... getting ... "what we had", isn't it normal people react ?
Hey, I already said I was underwhelmed by the released information about ToR by Bioware
But let's take a look at the AoC and WAR launches for examples: big hype beforehand, big unique selling points, and what was the end result when they launched? Very different from what people believed it to be before launch or beta.
All I'm saying is that speculate away, everyone, but crying a river and calling doom and despair on a game, as well as hyping it up to the sky before a MMO has even reached beta is too premature. Sure, people may do all they like; it's just unrealistic when you haven't even experienced the gameplay yet.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree, let's wait and see how Bioware's game turns out. Everything before the game or beta are being played is just idle speculation, we don't know yet at the moment how things will play out.
If idle speculation bothers you, then why are you here? If it bothers you, then stop talking and reading about it.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Do not misunderstand me. Bioware has made some of the best single-player RPGs I have ever played. But it seems apparent now that they are trying to translate that concept into a MMO. I do not think it will work. I am, however, trying to reserve my judgement.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Other than Guild Wars (CORPG) and perhaps WoW (which has a bunch of small stories ) I don't see an overall story to most mmos either. All you do is level up and grind for gear most of the time for $15.00 a month.
Hey, I already said I was underwhelmed by the released information about ToR by Bioware
But let's take a look at the AoC and WAR launches for examples: big hype beforehand, big unique selling points, and what was the end result when they launched? Very different from what people believed it to be before launch or beta.
All I'm saying is that speculate away, everyone, but crying a river and calling doom and despair on a game, as well as hyping it up to the sky before a MMO has even reached beta is too premature. Sure, people may do all they like; it's just unrealistic when you haven't even experienced the gameplay yet.
I fully agree, but this thread was in response to Bioware stating the other MMo's are not as good because of lack of story telling.
And this constructive discussion (for the most part) was all about what is the gameplay of an MMO and why people keep up subs for years in these games they like. And from a lot of reactions we can conclude that story telling is not the main focus of any prolonged MMO succes. For some people it could work, but even then the question remains how long they play these kind of story driven games and will pay subscriptions.
Bioware thinks it is elemental. They invest quite big amounts in that pre recording story telling. So indeed we will see.
But until then, that designer showed a lot of disrespect in a game branche (on line play) in which he didn't prove a thing yet.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
Oh, don't be a pussy by backing out. Your argument "Bioware is all about the phat lewt" was irrelevant to this discussion,
I did not say that, so don't you dare put it in quotes. I said one of the devs said the game was about phat lewt.
You made a claim that Bioware was going away from the typical MMO design. I posted something that indicates that that claim was mistaken.
You're right, I misinterpreted that statement you made. In the same way, don't you dare claim to pose me as someone that doesn't care about the truth, you don't know anything about me else you'd know how far from the truth that statement is.
and you know it. It was nothing more than a weak trick to prove that "people like me" don't care about the truth, and that you do.
I judge based on the information available. If I see something I like, then I will comment on that, as well.
Everyone here is judging the game. One way or the other.
True, everyone judges one way or the other. I'm on the side of seeing things in grey values not black&white, and trying to reserve judgement, over excitement or over-dislike when I don't know all the facts yet.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You're right, I misinterpreted that statement you made. In the same way, don't you dare claim to pose me as someone that doesn't care about the truth, you don't know anything about me else you'd know how far from the truth that statement is.
Then be more careful about your quotes.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
And this constructive discussion (for the most part) was all about what is the gameplay of an MMO and why people keep up subs for years in these games they like. And from a lot of reactions we can conclude that story telling is not the main focus of any prolonged MMO succes. For some people it could work, but even then the question remains how long they play these kind of story driven games and will pay subscriptions.
Yep. The best MMO I think would have it all, the freedom of a virtual world like you see glimpses of in sandbox type games, immersive stories that you can explore and addictive gameplay. Of those, I believe too that gameplay is the most important in the long run.
That's why I'm interested though in the approaches ANet, Bioware and Funcom are taking with their vision for their upcoming MMO: to see if they can prove that belief wrong, and if they can prove that enhanced storytelling and added immersion by it matters as much as gameplay in the long run.
To me, it'll be a win if they can show that there are other successful ways in MMO gameplay style than the current ones. I don't think that all their experimentations will be successful, but it'll be interesting experimentations nonetheless of these upcoming MMO's.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Yep. The best MMO I think would have it all, the freedom of a virtual world like you see glimpses of in sandbox type games, immersive stories that you can explore and addictive gameplay. Of those, I believe too that gameplay is the most important in the long run.
See to me, I think a sure way for an MMO to fail is to try and have it all, all at once. I am not saying they can't have a strong start, take some risks and offer a point-of-view that we haven't seen from MMO's yet, but there is such thing as trying to do too much and failing on all fronts. I would rather them be realistic, and most importantly, realistic with us, and deliver a solid product with ample content and room to grow. As for Bioware story telling, in the gaming industry, yes they do pretty well, and I enjoy them. They are not, however, on par with a lot of novels or even movies. Most of it is predictable, albeit not necessarily in a bad way. DA had enough depth to warrant it's praise, but Bioware storytelling is certainly not enough to keep a gaming going on it's own. I am also concerned about how companions will work in an MMO world... but i am willing to see what they do with it. It would be pretty intersting if players had companions that could interact with each other in some way or at least with other players maybe. I am also wondering how much this story-telling will equate to instances.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Yep. The best MMO I think would have it all, the freedom of a virtual world like you see glimpses of in sandbox type games, immersive stories that you can explore and addictive gameplay. Of those, I believe too that gameplay is the most important in the long run.
See to me, I think a sure way for an MMO to fail is to try and have it all, all at once. I am not saying they can't have a strong start, take some risks and offer a point-of-view that we haven't seen from MMO's yet, but there is such thing as trying to do too much and failing on all fronts. I would rather them be realistic, and most importantly, realistic with us, and deliver a solid product with ample content and room to grow. As for Bioware story telling, in the gaming industry, yes they do pretty well, and I enjoy them. They are not, however, on par with a lot of novels or even movies. Most of it is predictable, albeit not necessarily in a bad way. DA had enough depth to warrant it's praise, but Bioware storytelling is certainly not enough to keep a gaming going on it's own.
Uh huh. For people who actually read novels - game stories are not exceptional by any means. That is not to say they can't be outstanding within their own medium.
I have made a similar point in the past about console games' music. Some of it is is quite good - for game music. Very little of it would I listen to out-of-game.
I am also concerned about how companions will work in an MMO world... but i am willing to see what they do with it. It would be pretty intersting if players had companions that could interact with each other in some way or at least with other players maybe. I am also wondering how much this story-telling will equate to instances.
I think the companions are going to cause issues in anything but solo play.
What do you think about them not being renamable? How will it affect immersion if you and your friend who is grouped with you have the same person as a companion?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Uh huh. For people who actually read novels - game stories are not exceptional by any means. That is not to say they can't be outstanding within their own medium.
I have made a similar point in the past about console games' music. Some of it is is quite good - for game music. Very little of it would I listen to out-of-game.
Right, which of course is not a complaint necessarily. I enjoy a good story, and some of the ideas in DA were fairly new and a intersting take on what is usually considered traditional. Then again, I am not sure how much creative license they are going to have with Star Wars which can be a handicap when using an established IP. And I would agree with you on the music, although I've heard some very good music on occasion, but I am partial to musical soundtracks from games and movies and television. Some of the JRPGs have fairly well known musicians backing their track too.
I think the companions are going to cause issues in anything but solo play.
What do you think about them not being renamable? How will it affect immersion if you and your friend who is grouped with you have the same person as a companion?
I am not sure about the companions. On the one hand, I mostly like them in the single-player experience, still have some gripes about the switching out bits but that's me. Anyway, like other people have said, MMOs are largely driven by player interaction so a bunch of NPCs could hinder that or make the game so soloable it's not really worth it. I know I gave you a hard time on your grouping idea, but that isn't because I dislike grouping. I miss the earlier days of MMORPGs where you would join a bunch of random groups, and after awhile wind up playing with the same people over and over again you became friends and then maybe created a guild or something. Heck I would spend some weekends just shifting from one camp to another all night with the same group. Games like LOTRO (which i generally like) you'd be lucky if you can keep a group together past one 20 minute quest.
Anyway I digress. Pet's have been a part of MMORPG's for awhile now. For me mostly nameless or rotating name tools. So if their goal is to make the idea of a pet or henchmen more personal, more meaningingful... maybe that could work. If their goal is to give you a mini army to play with solo... eehhh. Hopeful it doesn't slow things down though if we wind up with a companions all over the screen talking at once.
The same person would be weird. Maybe they could have names and sort of attributes or something that make even the same kind of person a different person somehow.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I havn't exactly read anything inspiring about ToR either. I mean the philosphy of do it once, never again that seems to have initially been brought up by the devs is a bit..naive on the whole, don't you think.
Maybe they changed their minds but the last I read they wanted repetition to be as minimal as possible which to me smacks of a lack polish on the content as lot of it is going to have to be knocked out pretty quickly. For example look at how ravenous for more content the wow community is. They eat it up lovingly and that is stuff designed for a few weeks of work even for top teams.
Seems to me like (from what I read, devs may have smartened up to how mmos actually work by now) that a lot of stuff isn;t meant to take that long, there is going to be a raiding based end game, and yet it's also not going to be very sandboxy. And the devs think they can make enough content for it not to get boring while keeping the quality high too.
If anything star wars fans are going to be more hungry for content than wow fans are. I just don't see them keeping up under the design philophies they have. It also just doesn't seem like much of an mmo, more of a single player online game. Hot dang a couple of years ago I hated that phrase but it seems pretty natural here.
Again you know *disclaimer* that is based off of interviews I read with the devs around announcement time, things may have changed. It was pretty clearly naive tho, I hope they have.
Do not misunderstand me. Bioware has made some of the best single-player RPGs I have ever played. But it seems apparent now that they are trying to translate that concept into a MMO. I do not think it will work. I am, however, trying to reserve my judgement.
All Bioware has done is replaced generic Quest text boxes with full fledged voice acting and cinematic sequences. They are changing the way the game presents questing(and thus the storyline/lore) to you. Are you happy with a little text box coming up and shoving walls of texts with quests/storylines at you, do you not want to improve this obviously lame-ass system that games use to push storylines?
I don't see how you can believe this is a negative thing, or think it won't translate perfectly fine in an MMO. Take a look atTortuga in AoC to get an idea how well it translates, and then imagine that instead of your character just standing there looking at the person he is talking to... you actually watch a cinematic sequence. How is that a bad thing? How is that worse than what happens in WoW/Aion/etc?
I'm not understanding how anyone can think this is a bad thing. I just don't fucking get it.
MMO devs are incredibly stupid. People play games for gameplay. They read books or watch movies for story.
I hate to agree with MMO_Doubter but I agree with him on this one.
Story-emphasis is death for persistent online worlds. What does "persistent" mean? It basically means "never-ending".. And what defines a story? A beginning and an end.
So the whole crap with mmos being bad because they lack story-driven content is completely misguided. The quality that defines MMOs as a medium is their persistence (what makes you pay that sub for years on end). Since stories require an ending they are at direct conflict with this basic quality that defines the mmo genre. Less stories the better imo. A mmo should rely on a completely different paradigm than your story-driven single player rpg.
MMOs that have the longevity, and that's what truly counts in this genre, all do so by actively shying away from this story paradigm. WOW is not played for years because of the story, but because of something else. Players don't play GW for years because of the story but because of something else. There is no story at all in EVE and yet it is a very long-term game.. Other mmos who relied on rich stories as the mainstay of their content fizzled out after a month of two of subbing - consume the story and what are you left with?
A story in mmo is nothing more than fluff. It is not inherently part of the medium. It is even potentially harmful for the game because it detracts from the persistence, the quality that defines the genre. Why is Farmville the most popular MMO right now, even though it is crap? Because it is all about persistence - you have your garden and you grow stuff in it. It is a mmo about nothing else but housing - the ultimate persistence-feature of mmos... which is something AAA devs consistently shy away from as "irrelevant". This just shows you how the vast majority of big-studio devs simply do not understand the nature of the medium they're working in, being still stuck in single-player story-driven paradigm they cut their dev teeth on.
I'm sad to say but I sense epic fail in SWToR at a very basic conceptual level. Millions of box sales and then massive subscription cancellations, just like with other games that over-relied on story part of mmos.
MMO_Doubter is wrong. Mass Effect had different kinds of cutscenes. All the mini cutscenes of your character walking up to this door, or punching someone in a conversation, or voicing your chosen dialogue. That's part of what made Mass Effect so amazing. But I think Bioware isn't showing their full hand. WoW is partly successful because of the way they arrange the quests in quest hubs. Most players don't read the quest text, they just grab all the quests they can, look at objectives and go complete them. That is fun them and Bioware most likely has a way to satisfy those players, even while they say the features of their game will be story and cinematics.
Comments
Oh, don't be a pussy by backing out. Your argument "Bioware is all about the phat lewt" was irrelevant to this discussion, and you know it. It was nothing more than a weak trick to prove that "people like me" don't care about the truth, and that you do.
To hell with that. If you don't like where Bioware is going with ToR and want to go on ranting how "wrong they're doing things" even without giving them any benefit of the doubt, then why don't you just give up on ToR and move on? Clearly you don't like the game even while it's not even out yet. You've been saying in other posts that people shouldn't buy into any hype but wait when the game or beta arrives, but you've been doing exactly the same, only from the other side: condemning and scorning games before even a beta has arrived.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree, let's wait and see how Bioware's game turns out. Everything before the game or beta are being played is just idle speculation, we don't know yet at the moment how things will play out.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
C. as much as you give them the benifit of the doubt, I ask you in all honesty ...
When a new MMO launches the developpers behind it come with with a focused selling point... !
I said it before: War had RvR (and PvP) as a focus point, AoC had the realistic graphics and non fantasy setting, Lotro had Middle Earth, TR was going to be a space shooter/adventure.
After reading (yet again the same comments in this reference) what do you see as their main focus ?
Are they talking about big space battles? are they talking about huge PvP mechanics between planets? are they talking about raiding the Death Star?
You see those are BIG SW themes...
No they talk about their big budget and how simply everything will be story telling to individual players and voice over recording and in game movies ...like they did in a complete different sector of gameplay: solo adventures.
So how would you describe their MAIN focus point ... a few months away before Beta opens?
And after 5 years of ... getting ... "what we had", isn't it normal people react ?
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
I judge based on the information available. If I see something I like, then I will comment on that, as well.
Everyone here is judging the game. One way or the other.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The fact that you don't understand why they're doing all this is starting to amaze me, even after all the explinations.
This is so silly. A MMO needs to be a world, it needs to be something real. At the very least, it needs to have content that is not a linear storyline. This is where Bioware is going wrong, I think.
Do not misunderstand me. Bioware has made some of the best single-player RPGs I have ever played. But it seems apparent now that they are trying to translate that concept into a MMO. I do not think it will work. I am, however, trying to reserve my judgement.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
If idle speculation bothers you, then why are you here? If it bothers you, then stop talking and reading about it.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Hey, I already said I was underwhelmed by the released information about ToR by Bioware
But let's take a look at the AoC and WAR launches for examples: big hype beforehand, big unique selling points, and what was the end result when they launched? Very different from what people believed it to be before launch or beta.
All I'm saying is that speculate away, everyone, but crying a river and calling doom and despair on a game, as well as hyping it up to the sky before a MMO has even reached beta is too premature. Sure, people may do all they like; it's just unrealistic when you haven't even experienced the gameplay yet.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
See my other post before this one.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
+1
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I did. You are changing your story with every other post. You tell people to stop with the speculation, then you say it's okay. Make up your mind.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Other than Guild Wars (CORPG) and perhaps WoW (which has a bunch of small stories ) I don't see an overall story to most mmos either. All you do is level up and grind for gear most of the time for $15.00 a month.
I fully agree, but this thread was in response to Bioware stating the other MMo's are not as good because of lack of story telling.
And this constructive discussion (for the most part) was all about what is the gameplay of an MMO and why people keep up subs for years in these games they like. And from a lot of reactions we can conclude that story telling is not the main focus of any prolonged MMO succes. For some people it could work, but even then the question remains how long they play these kind of story driven games and will pay subscriptions.
Bioware thinks it is elemental. They invest quite big amounts in that pre recording story telling. So indeed we will see.
But until then, that designer showed a lot of disrespect in a game branche (on line play) in which he didn't prove a thing yet.
Its embarrassing when an NPC compliments you in an MMo, the only relevant, cool and epic things come from players whispering you Grtz, mate, we did it. copyright Pilnkplonk
In blue.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Yep. The best MMO I think would have it all, the freedom of a virtual world like you see glimpses of in sandbox type games, immersive stories that you can explore and addictive gameplay. Of those, I believe too that gameplay is the most important in the long run.
That's why I'm interested though in the approaches ANet, Bioware and Funcom are taking with their vision for their upcoming MMO: to see if they can prove that belief wrong, and if they can prove that enhanced storytelling and added immersion by it matters as much as gameplay in the long run.
To me, it'll be a win if they can show that there are other successful ways in MMO gameplay style than the current ones. I don't think that all their experimentations will be successful, but it'll be interesting experimentations nonetheless of these upcoming MMO's.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
See to me, I think a sure way for an MMO to fail is to try and have it all, all at once. I am not saying they can't have a strong start, take some risks and offer a point-of-view that we haven't seen from MMO's yet, but there is such thing as trying to do too much and failing on all fronts. I would rather them be realistic, and most importantly, realistic with us, and deliver a solid product with ample content and room to grow. As for Bioware story telling, in the gaming industry, yes they do pretty well, and I enjoy them. They are not, however, on par with a lot of novels or even movies. Most of it is predictable, albeit not necessarily in a bad way. DA had enough depth to warrant it's praise, but Bioware storytelling is certainly not enough to keep a gaming going on it's own. I am also concerned about how companions will work in an MMO world... but i am willing to see what they do with it. It would be pretty intersting if players had companions that could interact with each other in some way or at least with other players maybe. I am also wondering how much this story-telling will equate to instances.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
I think the companions are going to cause issues in anything but solo play.
What do you think about them not being renamable? How will it affect immersion if you and your friend who is grouped with you have the same person as a companion?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Quantitatively he is right in each case; look at the list; no point to 95% of the games on it.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
*controversial first post incoming!*
I havn't exactly read anything inspiring about ToR either. I mean the philosphy of do it once, never again that seems to have initially been brought up by the devs is a bit..naive on the whole, don't you think.
Maybe they changed their minds but the last I read they wanted repetition to be as minimal as possible which to me smacks of a lack polish on the content as lot of it is going to have to be knocked out pretty quickly. For example look at how ravenous for more content the wow community is. They eat it up lovingly and that is stuff designed for a few weeks of work even for top teams.
Seems to me like (from what I read, devs may have smartened up to how mmos actually work by now) that a lot of stuff isn;t meant to take that long, there is going to be a raiding based end game, and yet it's also not going to be very sandboxy. And the devs think they can make enough content for it not to get boring while keeping the quality high too.
If anything star wars fans are going to be more hungry for content than wow fans are. I just don't see them keeping up under the design philophies they have. It also just doesn't seem like much of an mmo, more of a single player online game. Hot dang a couple of years ago I hated that phrase but it seems pretty natural here.
Again you know *disclaimer* that is based off of interviews I read with the devs around announcement time, things may have changed. It was pretty clearly naive tho, I hope they have.
So whats the point of TOR going to be then?
Find all "over 50 novels-worth' of voice-over content" ? and roll alt after alt to find it?
If i want to play a visual novel i play one, im not really interested in an MMOVN
All Bioware has done is replaced generic Quest text boxes with full fledged voice acting and cinematic sequences. They are changing the way the game presents questing(and thus the storyline/lore) to you. Are you happy with a little text box coming up and shoving walls of texts with quests/storylines at you, do you not want to improve this obviously lame-ass system that games use to push storylines?
I don't see how you can believe this is a negative thing, or think it won't translate perfectly fine in an MMO. Take a look atTortuga in AoC to get an idea how well it translates, and then imagine that instead of your character just standing there looking at the person he is talking to... you actually watch a cinematic sequence. How is that a bad thing? How is that worse than what happens in WoW/Aion/etc?
I'm not understanding how anyone can think this is a bad thing. I just don't fucking get it.
I hate to agree with MMO_Doubter but I agree with him on this one.
Story-emphasis is death for persistent online worlds. What does "persistent" mean? It basically means "never-ending".. And what defines a story? A beginning and an end.
So the whole crap with mmos being bad because they lack story-driven content is completely misguided. The quality that defines MMOs as a medium is their persistence (what makes you pay that sub for years on end). Since stories require an ending they are at direct conflict with this basic quality that defines the mmo genre. Less stories the better imo. A mmo should rely on a completely different paradigm than your story-driven single player rpg.
MMOs that have the longevity, and that's what truly counts in this genre, all do so by actively shying away from this story paradigm. WOW is not played for years because of the story, but because of something else. Players don't play GW for years because of the story but because of something else. There is no story at all in EVE and yet it is a very long-term game.. Other mmos who relied on rich stories as the mainstay of their content fizzled out after a month of two of subbing - consume the story and what are you left with?
A story in mmo is nothing more than fluff. It is not inherently part of the medium. It is even potentially harmful for the game because it detracts from the persistence, the quality that defines the genre. Why is Farmville the most popular MMO right now, even though it is crap? Because it is all about persistence - you have your garden and you grow stuff in it. It is a mmo about nothing else but housing - the ultimate persistence-feature of mmos... which is something AAA devs consistently shy away from as "irrelevant". This just shows you how the vast majority of big-studio devs simply do not understand the nature of the medium they're working in, being still stuck in single-player story-driven paradigm they cut their dev teeth on.
I'm sad to say but I sense epic fail in SWToR at a very basic conceptual level. Millions of box sales and then massive subscription cancellations, just like with other games that over-relied on story part of mmos.
MMO_Doubter is wrong. Mass Effect had different kinds of cutscenes. All the mini cutscenes of your character walking up to this door, or punching someone in a conversation, or voicing your chosen dialogue. That's part of what made Mass Effect so amazing. But I think Bioware isn't showing their full hand. WoW is partly successful because of the way they arrange the quests in quest hubs. Most players don't read the quest text, they just grab all the quests they can, look at objectives and go complete them. That is fun them and Bioware most likely has a way to satisfy those players, even while they say the features of their game will be story and cinematics.