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When are you forced to group? Honest question.
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
When are you forced to group?
What is forced grouping in an MMORPG? My definition is Everquest, and Dark Age of Camelot.
You can solo to the cap in both of those games, and many players did, so obviously "forced grouping" does not mean you cannot solo.
At what point do you feel "forced" to group?
If you have never played EQ or DAoC, then what are you measuring against, when you say you'd never play a forced grouping game?
Would you feel "forced" to group if you didn't make xp as fast solo as in WoW?
Or would you possibly play a game if you made xp slower solo than in WoW? How much slower, if any?
I'm not trying to start a group versus solo thread. If you think "forced grouping" is a horrible evil thing, and all games with "forced grouping" are destined to fail, that's fine.
But what do you mean by that?
Some Developers are designing a game. And they tell you, we dont' want to make a "forced grouping game" because we know that would be terrible and it would fail. So they ask you, what do we have to do so you won't think this game is "forced grouping"? Or, when would you feel we ARE forcing you to group?
What do you tell them?
Do you say, I have to make xp just as fast solo as in a group, or I'll feel like I'm forced to group!
Do you say, I have to make the level cap solo just as fast as I do in WoW, or I'm forced to group!
Do you say, if it takes as long to the level cap solo as in EQ, then I"m forced to group! (and if you say that, have you played EQ to the level cap?)
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I've said it before, lemme say it again - nobody forces anyone to do anything.
You just either have a faster rate of progression while grouped, or not, and if that's the choice - players are going to force themselves to group with randoms and blame it on the game. Granted, you could play a game that lets you solo all the way to the end... where the group instances for gear starts... so if you hate grouping to begin with, why would you attempt for that goal?
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It's still the same question no matter how you frame it.
How fast do you have to level solo, for the game to be fun for you? As fast as a group? Almost as fast? What does "almost" as fast mean to you?
Not as fast? A lot slower would be ok? how much slower?
That can only be questioned with another question - how many people are simply *not* going to group if solo-play is 'as fast' or 'faster than' group play to progress with?
There is a reason it is the way it is.
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Again, I have to insist that the lineage 2 ways was the right way.
There were areas were one could solo and areas that required a group.
The areas that required a group were dangerous but the chance for good drops were higher. There is no bind on acquire or equip so players could sell what they got to anyone.
There was no need to slow down xp.
So....
having said that, "forced grouping" to me means that I cannot continue evolving my character unless I do missions or something that requires a group. Same with gear. If I can only get decent gear through grouping then that is forced grouping.
Now, I'm not talking about the idea of pvp gear or raid gear. Though my opinion is that there should be no such thing and there should just be "gear".
In Lineage 2 all gear with the exception of some rare raid stuff could be crafted. They also came as drops in raids. And sometimes from certain mobs that were soloable.
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Honestly I don't think this forced group is the right question. It's the ease of grouping. Do you know what discourages grouping for the majority of people? Time.
So for you EQ and DAoC would not be considered "forced grouping" since you can solo to the cap in those games? Or you would only consider the raiding "end game" to be forced grouping in those games?
I think that's an extreme minority position, and that the majority of people would say EQ was a forced grouping game, even though you COULD solo to the cap. It wasn't fast or easy, but you could certainly do it.
Honestly I've never played any game that forced me to group and I started back with EQ. Grouping has been an option in every MMO I've played, sometimes it's an encouraged option (EQ), sometimes it's a discouraged option (AoC/WoW), but there has always been an option to progress via soloing or grouping. Even games like EQ allowed soloers to level faster than groupers. My cleric was fun to solo vs undead and I could rake in experience like mad if I chose to, but grouping was much more enjoyable to me.
And yes, I've played a necro, enchanter, warrior, cleric, wizard, and beserker to cap over the years. Some of them I mainly grouped, others I mainly soloed, but the option was always there to play anyway I wanted.
Well, that's exactly what leads to people feeling grouping is "forced", the amount of time it takes to reach the level cap solo versus group.
Let's look at an extreme example.
Let's say that playing solo it will take you a year to get to the level cap.
but playing in groups it will take about a month of game play.
There's nothing to stop you from soloing all the way to the level cap. But most people will be discouraged, knowing they could group and go so much faster.
So they will group in that game, feeling "forced" to do so, because solo play is so slow by comparison.
If it's just "time" then why would you feel "forced to group" in that game? You'd just play solo, enjoy your solo game, and what the group was doing wouldn't matter to you at all.
encouraged option = forced grouping
If that's not the case, then there is no such thing as a game that has forced grouping, because in every MMORPG you can solo to the cap, it just takes longer in some than in others.
And if there was no such thing as "forced grouping" there wouldn't be lots of discussions about it, I dont' think.
People generally call EQ a "forced grouping" game.
The don't mean you're not allowed to solo in the game, because there is no such game that doesnt' allow you to solo.
They mean that they level so much slower solo than in a group, they feel "forced" to group to keep up with everyone else.
Actually I wasn't thinking about leveling or xp gain in regards to my time comment at all. More like how diffiicult it can be to put together a group and then on top of that the amount of time required to complete group activities. I've played in games where my session has been about 3 hours playtime and I have looked for group the whole time. Waiting for 15 minutes to get a group together? That's perfectly acceptable. Waiting 2+ hours? No thank you.
For me, as long as I can evolve my character and get decent (but doesn't have to be god like) gear so that I'm not turned away when I want to group, then I dont' consider that forced grouping.
If however it takes a person in groups 6 months to get to cap and it would take me solo to get to cap 3 years then I would say that wasn't forced grouping but I wouldn't play the game as that pretty much leaves out the person who mostly solos.
If however it took a player, the same play time, 6 months in groups and me solo about 8 or 9 months then that is acceptable.
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yes, but why would you wait and not play the game? Why not just solo?
"leaves out the person who mostly solos" is pretty much the definition of "forced grouping".
Again, no game I know of stops players from playing the game solo, so "forced grouping" isn't some game where you log on and you're automatically put in a group, and you can't get out of it.
People have never used the term "forced grouping" to mean that as far as I know.
they have always used "forced grouping" to mean "leaves out the person who mostly solos".
The point of this post is, when do you feel left out?
For you it was 6 months versus 3 years? THAT is when you would feel "forced to group" or to put it in your terms, "left out if you mostly solo"?
So 6 months grouped versus 9 months solo would be ok, and NOT feel like forced grouping?
I think, but I'm not absolutely positive, that this is more of a ration than WoW has.
I don't think it takes an extra 3 months to make it to the cap if you don't group in WoW.
To me, i feel "forced" to group when a game is not really designed from the ground up as a group oriented game overall (such as FFXI) but instead places false barriers/handicaps on soloers.
Basically what i mean by that is, if the game is designed in such a way that all (or most) of the content CAN be soloed by the average player, but then turns around and puts in things such as lowered xp, drop rates, etc for the soloer (or the opposite, giving bonuses to groups) as their method of "encouraging" grouping, then it feels forced to me.
My reason for this is because IMO, if a solo player is capable of essentially handling the same content/mobs as a group of 8 players, they should be rewarded for being powerful, smart, and/or skilled enough to do so, after all they are doing all of the work as 1 player, rather than relying on others to carry most of the weight. As I said though, if there is a game (or a lot of content within a game) which is basically designed around group play, then that is simply the game design and 1 of the mechanics/features of the game, rather than trying to force players into doing something that the dev didn't properly design the game for.
It pretty much comes down to, does it (the grouping) feel natural as a part of the core design of the game, or is it pretty much just a tacked on fake wall/barrier to discourage soloers in an environment that allows easy solo play. A great example is games which allow individual players to be able to herd up and take down multiple foes with ease, but gives bonuses to xp/loot for being in a party vs designing content challenging enough to make you want/need a group to begin with.
In what game can a solo player kill the same mob that would be challenging for 8 players in a group? I don't think I've seen such a game.
A game where a solo player can kill a mob, that 8 players together can barely kill? How is that even possible?
If a solo player can kill it, then why would it take 8 players to kill it? that makes no sense.
Actually it's possible.
Lineage 2.
There were these mini bosses that took several people but if a player was high enough and had decent gear, lots of heal pots, etc, they could do it. This is assuming that the player wasn't waaaaaay over the mini boss which of course would be a no brainer. usuall tanks or destroyers could do this. It's been a while.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
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It's because a lot of people now that cry about that are only going on what the marketing spin of new games put into their pitch.
I had a solo character in EQ1, at least spent 80% on that character just soloing, and the 20% only because I felt like grouping. Was my Wood Elf Ranger, pretty good at soloing, yet a challenge... "Ranger Down!" lol. My Drui about 50% solo, was just a great char for groups and for soloing. Then my Cleric, geez, could relentlessly smash undead solo, but spent 80% in groups because that was the most fun.
Oh they will say they played the games, but long after they changed them you find out as they describe features that didn't exist until bad expansions that resulted in low player populations. Games get newbified, vets go away and newbies are stuck in the ghost town as they come in. Then they hear the marketing spin and think no one liked those games, but it wasn’t that at all.
The thing was, you could do either solo or group. When the carrot is for group, there will always be an option to solo. But if you put that carrot on anything else or equal it out, the groups die beyond quick pick-up groups that disband quickly. It's why game communities are suffering, lost the group orientation and social aspects of these games.
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I never said it was challenging for either of them, i was looking more at games that do as i mentioned later in the post and allow a solo player to be able to kill multiple foes with ease, but yet reward a full party of people with bonuses for killing the exact same stuff that the solo player was. And theres quite a few games where depending on the player, gear, class, skill, etc a solo player can take on as much as or more than a full party of equal level people. I've done it plenty of times myself on games such as RoM, Rohan, RF Online. In those and other games ive been capable of doing things such as soloing boss/elite mobs that other groups of people recently wiped on or are standing there asking for more help with, and i just run up to it, take it out in a matter of a few seconds, and walk away laughing at them being unable to do it with their party. In others I can go solo aoe farm large crowds (dozens at once) of mobs while nearby parties of 4-8 players of equal level to me are only capable of handing 1-5 of that same mob or else they wipe. But rather than being rewarded for being capable of doing so much, i was instead punished by things like not receiving group party bonuses to my XP.
On the other hand, youve got games like FFXI where if i went out trying to solo some of the stuff, especially later in the game, i would just get my ass handed to me unless i came with at least a little bit of backup. To me, that isn't "forced" that's simply the way the game is designed, without having to basically trick/entice/force you into grouping when it's not really needed like many other games do.
I guess it's a matter of actual working group mechanics being put into the game and making it challenging enough to need groups, as opposed to sticking in imaginary mechanics to hinder a soloer (the +/- xp, loot, etc thing) while still allowing them to be capable of soloing it anyway.
If you only group in WoW, it will take a lot longer to hit cap. That`s going to be a lot of sitting around waiting for a group - even with the LFD tool.
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I think what the issue is is that you keep using the example of games that "you" know.
In lineage 2 there are several instances where not only do you need a group to advance your character, but in some cases a raid. yes a raid. Three in fact.
In Aion, there is gear that can only be gotten in a group based areas, one of them is done by collecting these "hair" things in a certain group only area and in one instance that I know of, a very powerful skill that can only be gotten when doing group based quests. Also, in Aion, in orderr to access a secluded area (forbidden library or some such thing on the asmo side, I believe Elyos have their version) you need to complete a quest chain that has several group only quests.
In LOTRO you need a group in order to do the instances where you can get the tokens for your radiance gear. One could say that radiance gear is not required but it does have the best stats regardless of whether you need the radiance.
So again, any of these things can be a bottle neck for the solo player.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Aye, it is much faster to solo quest grind in WoW. You do get a nice chuck of exp from doing group/dungeon quests, but every group quest I've ever run in WoW had numerous solo quests prereqs.
I dont' think so, but in any case the point is, when would you feel forced to group?
Ok, I do understand your point, but I wasn't really so much concerned with "bottlenecks" but rather the majority of the game to the level cap.
I understand you that if you can't go past Zone A until you do this group dungeon, that for that tiny little part of the game, you are "forced to group".
But my question is about the general game play, not just a particular bottle neck in the game.
When would you feel "forced to group" for the entire game?
If you only solo with your toon, is there a need for you to have radiance gear? Is there solo content in the game that cannot not be accomplished without this radiance gear?
I think thats the biggest problem people have with understanding different tiers of gear. Soloing should give you all the gear you need in order to accomplish all the solo content. Grouping should give you all the gear you need to accomplish group content, and the same for raiding.
If you never plan on grouping why is it so important to have gear designed to help you progress through group or raid content?