Believe the original question was "When are you forced to group?" Think firstly I want to say that "Forced Group" is a rather broad term, and I think in it's relation to MMORPGs rather moot.
Regardless of that, I will answer the question. I believe someone has said something similar in principle before, but I feel "forced to group" when the game's structure is such that soloing is a viable option, while grouping is a slightly better viable option. One of my largest grievances with the mmorpgs of today is the slow migration away from the "MMO." The increasing ease to solo, seems to drain the life away from the social aspects of the game. When a person has a viable solo option, it gives them a root for comparison. Thus once they snag a group, they start to compare their productivity between solo and group. Expectations are increased, patience reduced, social plesantries often discarded. It is at this point, I feel a group is forced.
I don't play MMOs for the fine, stellar gaming experience they offer(cough sarcasm) I play MMOs to have a good time with my friends, guild mates, meet new people. With most new games I just cant find that anymore. I will admit, grouping can be frustrating yes, but I feel on the whole, a "natural" *grouping based game structure (As opposed to a **Solo/Group structure) leads to, a better community, player base, game loyalty, and overall enjoyment.
* "Natural" grouping based games: Games designed around social aspects like; Asheron's Call, FFXI, Everquest etc etc
** "Solo/Group" Structure: Games like: Aion, WoW, EvE etc etc
for ME "forced grouping" means -the best stat-ed gear is only obtainable via explicit formal grouping (as opposed to defacto grouping which is awesome and im glad gw2 seemingly gets it) -lack of soloable mobs at every player character level that give enough xp that soloers are not in effect harshly punished for soloing (the speed it takes to reach the level cap in wow is a good example of "unpunished" solo leveling speed)
Why is it fun to group? to overcome an obstacle. How is it an obstacle if you can solo around it? It's not. So then it's just a a pointless activity, and therefore, at least for me, not near as fun or satisfying.
But then why play an MMultiplayerORPG?
I just cant understand this ongoing discussions here on mmorpg about grouping, if you dont want to group there are way better single rpg's on the market then an solo friendly "mmo"
I want to group when there's a reason to group. If you can solo around the content, then why are you grouping? What's the point?
None.
I will give you a candy bar if you write a poem.
I will also give you the same candy bar if you write 10 poems.
Why would you write the other 9 poems? You wouldn't because it would be pointless.
I will ONLY give you a candy bar if you write 10 poems. And no one that writes less will get a candy bar!
Aha! a challenge! Now I want t write all 10 poems, and it will be fun!
I feel forced to do somethign in a game when the game either does not allow me to continue without doing something or when all the alternatives are unaccetable.
For grouping in a MMO, I feel forced to do it when I find the amount of grind playing solo is unacceptable. What I mean by that is if I have to grind for 12 hours to get a level solo while I have to grind for only six in a group then I will see soloing as a nonviable option because 12 hours for a level is too long.
But it isn't about the difference in time rather if I find the amount of grind accetable or not. For example if you had to invest 6 hours to level in solo and only 3 in group, then I do not feel I am being forced to group because both 6 and 3 hours are acceptable. So I do not feel forced to do something if all the options are within a tolerable amount of grind. When one option exceeds the tolerable grind level and the other does not then I feel forced to do the one that I find more tolerable. Of course if all options exceed the tolerance level then I just don't play the game.
Low Grind Group
High Grind Group
Low Grind Solo
No Forced Gameplay
Forced Solo
High Grind Solo
Forced Group
Bad Game
I could sum it up in this chart. Of course high and low grind are subjective. But this is what I mean when I say forced.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Well, at last it looks like you read one of my posts. Yay!
To answer, for me a game has "forced-grouping" when there is no content designed to be done without a group.
In such a game, you log in, look for a group and if you don't find one, you log out.
If EQ2 eliminated all content aside from max level instances, I would consider it to be a forced-grouping game because they are all designed for groups of 3-6. Sure, some people solo them and I have done a bit of soloing, but it's not rewarding and not designed for it. These instances still exist in the game now and they're designed for groups. But aside from going into them, there are open dungeons, overland quests and other activities some (not all) of which were designed to be done solo and this gives me a choice of whether i want to participate in "forced grouping gameplay" or "solo gameplay". Both of which exist in the same game.
To answer you theoretical question about chocolate and poems, I would say it depends on whether my goal is to get chocolate or to be remembered for writing poems.
Personally, if you were willing to read them, I'd write you 10 poems for the same chocolate. For example: answering your posts has yielded me very little reward - I've certainly not convinced you of anything - yet I continue doing it because I enjoy MMO discussions and as long as others partake in them, I'm not particularly concerned that I haven't "won the argument" or whatnot.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Why is it fun to group? to overcome an obstacle. How is it an obstacle if you can solo around it? It's not. So then it's just a a pointless activity, and therefore, at least for me, not near as fun or satisfying.
But then why play an MMultiplayerORPG?
I just cant understand this ongoing discussions here on mmorpg about grouping, if you dont want to group there are way better single rpg's on the market then an solo friendly "mmo"
I want to group when there's a reason to group. If you can solo around the content, then why are you grouping? What's the point?
None.
I will give you a candy bar if you write a poem.
I will also give you the same candy bar if you write 10 poems.
Why would you write the other 9 poems? You wouldn't because it would be pointless.
I will ONLY give you a candy bar if you write 10 poems. And no one that writes less will get a candy bar!
Aha! a challenge! Now I want t write all 10 poems, and it will be fun!
Maybe you like engaging in pointless activities.
I don't.
I would write the other 9 poems because I like writing poetry and I find it fun. If I really like writing poetry I would write all 10 even if I got no candy for it. If I do not like writing poems then I might write one for a candy just to 'get it over with' but I would not write 10 for a candy bar.
My problem with your arguments on this issue is that you seem to be a person who advocates grouping but hardly seems to have fun grouping and only seems to to it for the rewards. Personally, I will do solo or grouping activities based on whether they are fun at the moment and will care less if the rewards are big or small.
In old school days, you are mostly forced to group to level up, and forced to group & raid at endgame. Back in EQ1/DAOC days, there were only a few classes that were able to solo level. Rest of the classes depended on groups to exp. Things have changed over the years of course, and these days in EQ1, all classes can solo due to the introduction of mercenaries 2 expansions ago. But forced grouping was the norm in the early 2000's, only game that didn't really follow that concept was AC1.
In today's age, games mostly allow you to solo level, while only forcing you to group at endgame. Some games are more popular today because they not only offer solo content for leveling, but they also offer solo content at endgame (like WoW for an example).
As an ex-EQ1 enthusiast I prefer this style today because I don't have the patience to be forced to group like the old days. All I really ask for is that there's enough content I can do solo/duo to occupy my time. I don't mind grouping every once in awhile, but make it my choice to group. The reason WoW is so popular is because it does offer the choices. I do probably 1 or 2 instances a day to complete my dailies, rest of the time I'm out pvping, doing BG's, leveling up alts, or crafting. I don't feel that I'm forced to group, which is probably why I'm still playing the game.
Why is it fun to group? to overcome an obstacle. How is it an obstacle if you can solo around it? It's not. So then it's just a a pointless activity, and therefore, at least for me, not near as fun or satisfying.
But then why play an MMultiplayerORPG?
I just cant understand this ongoing discussions here on mmorpg about grouping, if you dont want to group there are way better single rpg's on the market then an solo friendly "mmo"
Then you clearly do not understand all the dimensions of MMORPGs. Grouping is NOT the only mode of interaction between players. Here are some other examples:
- economy .. buying & selling on a common AH .. NOT available in a single player game.
- PvP .. in small or large battles .. NOT available in a single player game.
- bragging rights .. showing off stuff to other .. NOT available in a single player game.
Grouping is NOT the only activity you need others for.
I've felt "forced" to group in games like DAOC with certain classes, (healers, pure DPS etc) that could not solo efficiently (as opposed to Necromancers who could easily powerlevel the other classes).
But in fact, classes like Necro's were released in the SI expansion to combat complaints that outside of Theurigists and a few others, most classes could not really solo quickly and people had to group too much.
So it does come down to a comparision between progression speed between soloer's and groupers.
I'm currently leveling up a healer in Aion, and solo leveling is pretty slow and tedious. I feel strongly encouraged to group for faster experience and to obtain gear which seems to be absent anywhere else except the group based dungeons these days.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When a encounter/boss requires team work and totally impossible to defeat solo (rightfully so), it still be a option to do the encounter or kill the boss regardless, so forced grouping doesn't have to be a negative.
What is forced grouping in an MMORPG? My definition is Everquest, and Dark Age of Camelot.
Those games had more group oriented content, which was as you say below was still a option. But you "can" see "forced grouping" in about any MMORPG ever made, even the fully solo friendly games, but the thing is many players ignore this, often outlvl the group content and then begin to complain about the lack of challenge, where again it seems those type of players need their hands hold cause they have forgotten how to challenge themselfs within this genre, they totally ignore they could have a go at group content at the right or even well below the lvl the group content is designed for.
You can solo to the cap in both of those games, and many players did, so obviously "forced grouping" does not mean you cannot solo.
At what point do you feel "forced" to group?
Kinda explained in my first reply sentence. Which again doesn't have to be a negative
If you have never played EQ or DAoC, then what are you measuring against, when you say you'd never play a forced grouping game?
It's seems you only look at the negative or "forced grouping", as said many times in many topics "it will always be the player themselfs forcing what ever"
But to get into the negative is when there are no other means then forced grouping to do any type of activity within this genre, else we might aswell choose to play mulitplayer games if we would be so set on forced grouping.
Would you feel "forced" to group if you didn't make xp as fast solo as in WoW?
I don't care about XP, I care about having a fun time with a group of people trying to kill that boss or over come what ever encounter, XP is the least on my mind.
Or would you possibly play a game if you made xp slower solo than in WoW? How much slower, if any?
It's is one of the reasons I often play solo, due to many in this rush, where grouping makes more XP meaning faster progress, I just don't see why I should progress quickly in this genre, I take my time, sort of smell the roses. And yes I know I am a minority among the current rush to cap lvl crowed.
I'm not trying to start a group versus solo thread. If you think "forced grouping" is a horrible evil thing, and all games with "forced grouping" are destined to fail, that's fine.
I still stand by what I said a full forced grouping game will not work (which means excactly what I said a FULL forced grouping game, with no means to do things solo as said before in your other topics "MOST players are not able to play 24/7" there for I don't believe a full forced grouing game would work, which you kept misunderstanding. Never said a game with a the option of forced grouping would fail
But what do you mean by that?
Some Developers are designing a game. And they tell you, we dont' want to make a "forced grouping game" because we know that would be terrible and it would fail. So they ask you, what do we have to do so you won't think this game is "forced grouping"? Or, when would you feel we ARE forcing you to group?
What do you tell them?
Do you say, I have to make xp just as fast solo as in a group, or I'll feel like I'm forced to group!
Nope as said I try to take my time and XP is totally not in my mind when I play this genre, it just comes naturally, with no focus on the XP part. So my answer is I do not want to gain XP as fast as people who group, let grouping have their benifiths, for it seems most people that counts, to me as also said it's about having fun with other people, doing that encounter in team work.
Do you say, I have to make the level cap solo just as fast as I do in WoW, or I'm forced to group!
Again hard for me to answer cause as said I take my time, where some players might take a few weeks to lvl cap I try to make my journey as long as possible, I like the social part of this genre, which seems better achieved playing solo and socializing with others then group wich often feels more solo then actually playing solo, kinda like playing with NPC companions, as with the majority of the PUG's I still feel alone even though I try to speak, often with little to no responses back other the,Ready, KK, Thanks and Bye.
Do you say, if it takes as long to the level cap solo as in EQ, then I"m forced to group! (and if you say that, have you played EQ to the level cap?)
Seems your only focus is cap lvl or XP gain in most of your topics about forced grouping, I know I am a minority in why I would group but never thought I would be that nichy as to why I group, which seems to never crossed you mind, unfortunaly.
Again, I have to insist that the lineage 2 ways was the right way.
There were areas were one could solo and areas that required a group.
The areas that required a group were dangerous but the chance for good drops were higher. There is no bind on acquire or equip so players could sell what they got to anyone.
There was no need to slow down xp.
So....
having said that, "forced grouping" to me means that I cannot continue evolving my character unless I do missions or something that requires a group. Same with gear. If I can only get decent gear through grouping then that is forced grouping.
Now, I'm not talking about the idea of pvp gear or raid gear. Though my opinion is that there should be no such thing and there should just be "gear".
In Lineage 2 all gear with the exception of some rare raid stuff could be crafted. They also came as drops in raids. And sometimes from certain mobs that were soloable.
There are a lot of similarities between L2 and EVE. This is one of them, and it's one of the reasons that both games have done as well as they have.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Why is it fun to group? to overcome an obstacle. How is it an obstacle if you can solo around it? It's not. So then it's just a a pointless activity, and therefore, at least for me, not near as fun or satisfying.
But then why play an MMultiplayerORPG?
I just cant understand this ongoing discussions here on mmorpg about grouping, if you dont want to group there are way better single rpg's on the market then an solo friendly "mmo"
I want to group when there's a reason to group. If you can solo around the content, then why are you grouping? What's the point?
None.
I will give you a candy bar if you write a poem.
I will also give you the same candy bar if you write 10 poems.
Why would you write the other 9 poems? You wouldn't because it would be pointless.
I will ONLY give you a candy bar if you write 10 poems. And no one that writes less will get a candy bar!
Aha! a challenge! Now I want t write all 10 poems, and it will be fun!
Maybe you like engaging in pointless activities.
I don't.
I think this is where the crux of the argument falls.
Because to the "average" person the 1 poem is the no brainer decision.
But to a poet, he would do the 10 poems and might give you 5 more. Because the candy bar is just the impetus to get him/her writing poems.
the problem here is that many people who are pro group are basially in it for the experience but they are just as equally in it for the "loot". And it seems that loot and xp always wins out.
I have said time and time again that when I group I don't expect loot nor do I expect xp. at least great xp. I turn that part off and short of having to group for some specific quest objective, I just do it to have fun. Or to help someone out.
I also solo this way as well. If there is a quest that seems fun or interesting I do it regardless of xp or rewards. heck, I've done several quests with my llv 65 guardinan that could have been soloed with a lvl 20 character.
but there are a large number of players who are always eye on the prize. It is this demographic that seems to color the current mmo experience.
this is not to say that I don't enjoy a decent xp run or an equipment upgrade. But that is, for me, only part of the experience because I play these games for the adventure.
Much like the poet who will give you 15 poems for one candy bar. Better be a good one though.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Again, I have to insist that the lineage 2 ways was the right way.
There were areas were one could solo and areas that required a group.
The areas that required a group were dangerous but the chance for good drops were higher. There is no bind on acquire or equip so players could sell what they got to anyone.
There was no need to slow down xp.
So....
having said that, "forced grouping" to me means that I cannot continue evolving my character unless I do missions or something that requires a group. Same with gear. If I can only get decent gear through grouping then that is forced grouping.
Now, I'm not talking about the idea of pvp gear or raid gear. Though my opinion is that there should be no such thing and there should just be "gear".
In Lineage 2 all gear with the exception of some rare raid stuff could be crafted. They also came as drops in raids. And sometimes from certain mobs that were soloable.
There are a lot of similarities between L2 and EVE. This is one of them, and it's one of the reasons that both games have done as well as they have.
in my opinion this is really the only way to have an mmo.
It makes gear somethign that anyone and everyone can acquire, regardless of playstyle. It fosters an economy and gives reason for crafting. keep in mind I hate crafting but I love adventuring and have no problem with selling my measly drops for money, saving up, and buying something of great value.
It inspires player interaction on a vareity of differnet levels.
for me it's a good thing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
forced (fôrst, frst) adj.1. Imposed by force; involuntary
See this? This is what forced means, the option of being able to do something be it a bit tougher solo verses doing it in a group for an easier go at it is not forced. It is either do it simple or do it more difficult, neither of which are blocked off forcing you to do the other. People may be encouraged to do something to make it easier but that is far from forced.
forced (fôrst, frst) adj.1. Imposed by force; involuntary
See this? This is what forced means, the option of being able to do something be it a bit tougher solo verses doing it in a group for an easier go at it is not forced. It is either do it simple or do it more difficult, neither of which are blocked off forcing you to do the other. People may be encouraged to do something to make it easier but that is far from forced.
END OF LINE_
~V
Perhaps reading the title and the OP through the eyes of bunny ears ("content") would help your POV.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Grouping is forced when it is required to attain skills, or to progess at a reasonable pace, or to finish a story line. LOTRO does this on two accounts, and I dislike it.
I have grouped with kinmates, but always feel guilty because my game time is so sparodic. I realize it is largely my issue, but I hate that the game makes me feel guilty. If I ask for help on one of the forced grouping quests, when will I be able to return the favor? Will I be able to? If I only have time to log on for a half hour, and people are looking for group members, I feel guilty in needing to decline.
When I played EQ, I think I reached 43rd level Paladin (just after LoD) before I canceled my sub...logging on for two hours only to see my xp bar creep up a bulb or fraction was lame game play at best, and waste of time at worst. So EQ failed in two of the three areas as well for me.
I can tolerate perhaps one of the grouping requirements, but beyond that it feels forced.
Especially when the best content is often locked behind the 'grouping gate'.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
I have grouped with kinmates, but always feel guilty because my game time is so sparodic. I realize it is largely my issue, but I hate that the game makes me feel guilty. If I ask for help on one of the forced grouping quests, when will I be able to return the favor? Will I be able to? If I only have time to log on for a half hour, and people are looking for group members, I feel guilty in needing to decline.
Why are you in a guild (which is what a kinship is, yes?) if you can't be functioning member?
Why are people who can't put in time, and don't want to group playing MMORPGs?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Sadly I am forced to group when I want to take down one of the strongest beings in the game world's lore and get phat loot to show off my awesomeness with.
Why devs, why!?! *sniffle*
"If all you can say is... "It's awful, it's not innovative, it's ugly, it's blah.." Then you're an unimaginative and unpolished excuse for human life" -eburn
I have grouped with kinmates, but always feel guilty because my game time is so sparodic. I realize it is largely my issue, but I hate that the game makes me feel guilty. If I ask for help on one of the forced grouping quests, when will I be able to return the favor? Will I be able to? If I only have time to log on for a half hour, and people are looking for group members, I feel guilty in needing to decline.
Why are you in a guild (which is what a kinship is, yes?) if you can't be functioning member?
Why are people who can't put in time, and don't want to group playing MMORPGs?
I've been wondering the same thing for a long time. It's not like people don't have many different options when it comes to video games.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
We can't have online multiplayer games that "force" players to work together to take on challenges that are simply too deadly for a single hero to combat alone?!?!
Just keep giving us more free gear and increased stats so we can eventually solo everything in the game without the help of others!
My bubble is very soft and I would hate to have it burst when another naughty player rolls for MY new epics!
In fact give me a game where MY character can take on anything on the server, including other players, so I have NO chance of ever losing and NO chance of ever dying!
It'll be great!
Because I enjoy playing online multiplayer games just to have other people to see and ignore and get angry at when they get in my way or ask me to help them!
I mean, I NEED Chinese gold farmers in my game in order to buy gold with my hard earned allowance so I can have the best epics!
While you are at it, let's go to Pizza Hut because apparently their commercials are teaching our generation that "winning" and being "better" and "competition" aren't good things and even if we lose we'll still get over-priced pizza! YAY FREEBIES!
Not like I already don't weigh 250 pounds despite being 5'2".
Comments
Believe the original question was "When are you forced to group?" Think firstly I want to say that "Forced Group" is a rather broad term, and I think in it's relation to MMORPGs rather moot.
Regardless of that, I will answer the question. I believe someone has said something similar in principle before, but I feel "forced to group" when the game's structure is such that soloing is a viable option, while grouping is a slightly better viable option. One of my largest grievances with the mmorpgs of today is the slow migration away from the "MMO." The increasing ease to solo, seems to drain the life away from the social aspects of the game. When a person has a viable solo option, it gives them a root for comparison. Thus once they snag a group, they start to compare their productivity between solo and group. Expectations are increased, patience reduced, social plesantries often discarded. It is at this point, I feel a group is forced.
I don't play MMOs for the fine, stellar gaming experience they offer(cough sarcasm) I play MMOs to have a good time with my friends, guild mates, meet new people. With most new games I just cant find that anymore. I will admit, grouping can be frustrating yes, but I feel on the whole, a "natural" *grouping based game structure (As opposed to a **Solo/Group structure) leads to, a better community, player base, game loyalty, and overall enjoyment.
* "Natural" grouping based games: Games designed around social aspects like; Asheron's Call, FFXI, Everquest etc etc
** "Solo/Group" Structure: Games like: Aion, WoW, EvE etc etc
for ME
"forced grouping" means
-the best stat-ed gear is only obtainable via explicit formal grouping (as opposed to defacto grouping which is awesome and im glad gw2 seemingly gets it)
-lack of soloable mobs at every player character level that give enough xp that soloers are not in effect harshly punished for soloing (the speed it takes to reach the level cap in wow is a good example of "unpunished" solo leveling speed)
Guild Wars 2 is my religion
I want to group when there's a reason to group. If you can solo around the content, then why are you grouping? What's the point?
None.
I will give you a candy bar if you write a poem.
I will also give you the same candy bar if you write 10 poems.
Why would you write the other 9 poems? You wouldn't because it would be pointless.
I will ONLY give you a candy bar if you write 10 poems. And no one that writes less will get a candy bar!
Aha! a challenge! Now I want t write all 10 poems, and it will be fun!
Maybe you like engaging in pointless activities.
I don't.
I feel forced to do somethign in a game when the game either does not allow me to continue without doing something or when all the alternatives are unaccetable.
For grouping in a MMO, I feel forced to do it when I find the amount of grind playing solo is unacceptable. What I mean by that is if I have to grind for 12 hours to get a level solo while I have to grind for only six in a group then I will see soloing as a nonviable option because 12 hours for a level is too long.
But it isn't about the difference in time rather if I find the amount of grind accetable or not. For example if you had to invest 6 hours to level in solo and only 3 in group, then I do not feel I am being forced to group because both 6 and 3 hours are acceptable. So I do not feel forced to do something if all the options are within a tolerable amount of grind. When one option exceeds the tolerable grind level and the other does not then I feel forced to do the one that I find more tolerable. Of course if all options exceed the tolerance level then I just don't play the game.
Low Grind Group
High Grind Group
Low Grind Solo
No Forced Gameplay
Forced Solo
High Grind Solo
Forced Group
Bad Game
I could sum it up in this chart. Of course high and low grind are subjective. But this is what I mean when I say forced.
All men think they're fascinating. In my case, it's justified
Well, at last it looks like you read one of my posts. Yay!
To answer, for me a game has "forced-grouping" when there is no content designed to be done without a group.
In such a game, you log in, look for a group and if you don't find one, you log out.
If EQ2 eliminated all content aside from max level instances, I would consider it to be a forced-grouping game because they are all designed for groups of 3-6. Sure, some people solo them and I have done a bit of soloing, but it's not rewarding and not designed for it. These instances still exist in the game now and they're designed for groups. But aside from going into them, there are open dungeons, overland quests and other activities some (not all) of which were designed to be done solo and this gives me a choice of whether i want to participate in "forced grouping gameplay" or "solo gameplay". Both of which exist in the same game.
To answer you theoretical question about chocolate and poems, I would say it depends on whether my goal is to get chocolate or to be remembered for writing poems.
Personally, if you were willing to read them, I'd write you 10 poems for the same chocolate. For example: answering your posts has yielded me very little reward - I've certainly not convinced you of anything - yet I continue doing it because I enjoy MMO discussions and as long as others partake in them, I'm not particularly concerned that I haven't "won the argument" or whatnot.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
If I want to do group content; I'm usually forced to group
!
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I would write the other 9 poems because I like writing poetry and I find it fun. If I really like writing poetry I would write all 10 even if I got no candy for it. If I do not like writing poems then I might write one for a candy just to 'get it over with' but I would not write 10 for a candy bar.
My problem with your arguments on this issue is that you seem to be a person who advocates grouping but hardly seems to have fun grouping and only seems to to it for the rewards. Personally, I will do solo or grouping activities based on whether they are fun at the moment and will care less if the rewards are big or small.
Are you the one who always starts these threads? They are all very similar.
In old school days, you are mostly forced to group to level up, and forced to group & raid at endgame. Back in EQ1/DAOC days, there were only a few classes that were able to solo level. Rest of the classes depended on groups to exp. Things have changed over the years of course, and these days in EQ1, all classes can solo due to the introduction of mercenaries 2 expansions ago. But forced grouping was the norm in the early 2000's, only game that didn't really follow that concept was AC1.
In today's age, games mostly allow you to solo level, while only forcing you to group at endgame. Some games are more popular today because they not only offer solo content for leveling, but they also offer solo content at endgame (like WoW for an example).
As an ex-EQ1 enthusiast I prefer this style today because I don't have the patience to be forced to group like the old days. All I really ask for is that there's enough content I can do solo/duo to occupy my time. I don't mind grouping every once in awhile, but make it my choice to group. The reason WoW is so popular is because it does offer the choices. I do probably 1 or 2 instances a day to complete my dailies, rest of the time I'm out pvping, doing BG's, leveling up alts, or crafting. I don't feel that I'm forced to group, which is probably why I'm still playing the game.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Then you clearly do not understand all the dimensions of MMORPGs. Grouping is NOT the only mode of interaction between players. Here are some other examples:
- economy .. buying & selling on a common AH .. NOT available in a single player game.
- PvP .. in small or large battles .. NOT available in a single player game.
- bragging rights .. showing off stuff to other .. NOT available in a single player game.
Grouping is NOT the only activity you need others for.
I've felt "forced" to group in games like DAOC with certain classes, (healers, pure DPS etc) that could not solo efficiently (as opposed to Necromancers who could easily powerlevel the other classes).
But in fact, classes like Necro's were released in the SI expansion to combat complaints that outside of Theurigists and a few others, most classes could not really solo quickly and people had to group too much.
So it does come down to a comparision between progression speed between soloer's and groupers.
I'm currently leveling up a healer in Aion, and solo leveling is pretty slow and tedious. I feel strongly encouraged to group for faster experience and to obtain gear which seems to be absent anywhere else except the group based dungeons these days.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There are a lot of similarities between L2 and EVE. This is one of them, and it's one of the reasons that both games have done as well as they have.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think this is where the crux of the argument falls.
Because to the "average" person the 1 poem is the no brainer decision.
But to a poet, he would do the 10 poems and might give you 5 more. Because the candy bar is just the impetus to get him/her writing poems.
the problem here is that many people who are pro group are basially in it for the experience but they are just as equally in it for the "loot". And it seems that loot and xp always wins out.
I have said time and time again that when I group I don't expect loot nor do I expect xp. at least great xp. I turn that part off and short of having to group for some specific quest objective, I just do it to have fun. Or to help someone out.
I also solo this way as well. If there is a quest that seems fun or interesting I do it regardless of xp or rewards. heck, I've done several quests with my llv 65 guardinan that could have been soloed with a lvl 20 character.
but there are a large number of players who are always eye on the prize. It is this demographic that seems to color the current mmo experience.
this is not to say that I don't enjoy a decent xp run or an equipment upgrade. But that is, for me, only part of the experience because I play these games for the adventure.
Much like the poet who will give you 15 poems for one candy bar. Better be a good one though.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Analogies really ought to be a bannable offense on this site.
I admit I am to blame as well.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
in my opinion this is really the only way to have an mmo.
It makes gear somethign that anyone and everyone can acquire, regardless of playstyle. It fosters an economy and gives reason for crafting. keep in mind I hate crafting but I love adventuring and have no problem with selling my measly drops for money, saving up, and buying something of great value.
It inspires player interaction on a vareity of differnet levels.
for me it's a good thing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That's it buddy,
on the ground and give me 20!
POEMS!
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Levelling in FFXI past 20.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
forced (fôrst, f
rst) adj.1. Imposed by force; involuntary
See this? This is what forced means, the option of being able to do something be it a bit tougher solo verses doing it in a group for an easier go at it is not forced. It is either do it simple or do it more difficult, neither of which are blocked off forcing you to do the other. People may be encouraged to do something to make it easier but that is far from forced.
END OF LINE_
~V
Perhaps reading the title and the OP through the eyes of bunny ears ("content") would help your POV.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
Grouping is forced when it is required to attain skills, or to progess at a reasonable pace, or to finish a story line. LOTRO does this on two accounts, and I dislike it.
I have grouped with kinmates, but always feel guilty because my game time is so sparodic. I realize it is largely my issue, but I hate that the game makes me feel guilty. If I ask for help on one of the forced grouping quests, when will I be able to return the favor? Will I be able to? If I only have time to log on for a half hour, and people are looking for group members, I feel guilty in needing to decline.
When I played EQ, I think I reached 43rd level Paladin (just after LoD) before I canceled my sub...logging on for two hours only to see my xp bar creep up a bulb or fraction was lame game play at best, and waste of time at worst. So EQ failed in two of the three areas as well for me.
I can tolerate perhaps one of the grouping requirements, but beyond that it feels forced.
Especially when the best content is often locked behind the 'grouping gate'.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Sadly I am forced to group when I want to take down one of the strongest beings in the game world's lore and get phat loot to show off my awesomeness with.
Why devs, why!?! *sniffle*
"If all you can say is... "It's awful, it's not innovative, it's ugly, it's blah.." Then you're an unimaginative and unpolished excuse for human life" -eburn
I've been wondering the same thing for a long time. It's not like people don't have many different options when it comes to video games.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Dear God no!
We can't have online multiplayer games that "force" players to work together to take on challenges that are simply too deadly for a single hero to combat alone?!?!
Just keep giving us more free gear and increased stats so we can eventually solo everything in the game without the help of others!
My bubble is very soft and I would hate to have it burst when another naughty player rolls for MY new epics!
In fact give me a game where MY character can take on anything on the server, including other players, so I have NO chance of ever losing and NO chance of ever dying!
It'll be great!
Because I enjoy playing online multiplayer games just to have other people to see and ignore and get angry at when they get in my way or ask me to help them!
I mean, I NEED Chinese gold farmers in my game in order to buy gold with my hard earned allowance so I can have the best epics!
While you are at it, let's go to Pizza Hut because apparently their commercials are teaching our generation that "winning" and being "better" and "competition" aren't good things and even if we lose we'll still get over-priced pizza! YAY FREEBIES!
Not like I already don't weigh 250 pounds despite being 5'2".
I love MMOs!