You cannot lump Sandbox and PvP together on the opposite side of PvE. It is Sandbox vs. repetitive limited AI Themeparks. When people want a Sandbox, some do include PvP there - why not? All of us that grew up playing PnP games are used to PvP - because it took place in every gaming session. Sure, with the advent of computer and console gaming - we started the PvE, but in general that works. PvE works pretty well for single player and small co-op gaming, but the heart of PnP RPGs exists in PvP.
People want more than the repetitive grind - they want what they do to matter - they want to be able to follow non-linear storylines so they feel like they are driving the outcome instead of just a passenger along for the ride.
Wow....you just dont have a pulse on what is working in games do ya?
The themeparks lately have been too narrow for my liking.....but it still doesnt detract from the fact the average person is a consumer. They are not builders.
You are correct....sandboxes appeal to the folks that used to sit home on friday nights playing DnD back in high school. It was a niche then, and still is. You may see FFA PVP like rolling against a DM....I see some needle-dick whose only way to feel better about themselves is by engaging in auto-win scenarios(noob ganking) while spouting off "carebear" on brds. You wanna do something impressive, then be the tops in a game where everyone has the same chance. Any advantage is based only upon knowledge/skill. Not gear/lvls/skills.
What is working in MMO gaming is give folks mobs(content) to plow thru(solo/grp/raid), and give them rewards(loot) for doing so. The gear-carrot so to speak. Throw them some PVP areas, and the majority of folks are gtg.
It is the PnP folks wanting a virtual reality, like they used to have on Friday nights, that are making the biggest amount of noise. Folks didnt wanna hang out with the nerds on friday nights, and they dont want the sims online either. Thus we have an endless barrage here of what is essentally the same post being spewed daily.
Anyways past my bed time....not meaning to come off rude but you guys just dont get it, and beyond tired of board being filled with this non-sense. Even among others your age/educational equivalent, what you see as fun we just see as work/boring.
And to be clear....I am not saying there is anything wrong with what you enjoy. To each their own. Just geez....can you guys quit re-gurgitating it ad-nauseum? As indicated....the repetitive threads are akin to the SWG vets over the past 4 yrs.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I mirror the frustrations of the OP, but I think those days are long gone. MMO's were a niche genre until WoW. It was the fluke that changed the industry and is why others try to copy their success. I do remain hopeful that one day an MMO will capture all the features that we all clamour for. Until then I'll stick to the Hype -> Interest -> Lifted NDA -> Crushing Disappointment. But hey, maybe Curt Schilling will save us all...haha j/k.
Good post with a lot of nostalgia. I am one of those old DAoC players and loved it at the time but there were major annoyances in those old games that in my opinion were mistakes in the overall design. The risk Vs reward systems you mentioned while great on paper very often turned into no more than frustrations and time sinks ( Ao's rez timer springs to mind ). I mean wtf was that rez timer about? a game mechanic that forced you to sit around doing sweet f.a for ten minutes just because you got killed. Okay it gave you time to make a coffee or stretch your legs but that is about all it was useful for.
Losing xp or levels due to being killed is another major mistake which has now been recognised as such by the industry and done away with. You call that risk and in an ideal utopian world it would work that way but it didn't did it? Tell me where the fun was in watching a huge wad of xp that had taken you almost a week to achieve vanish due to death by lag? Hey! if it was your fault and stupidity that got you killed fair comment but more times than not that death was caused by lag or some other asshat who had no idea how to play the damn game and caused a party wipe. How many old Ao players here have suffered death by exploding chest of uber roller rat because some nitwit opened the damn thing when the group were on the last dreggs of health after a hard boss fight?
The problem with the MMO industry today isn't the theme park / sandbox argument as I honestly think there is plenty room for both. The problem is greed, pure and simple. The old games were developed by small companies that were passionate about what they were making; They cared about the game and it showed. Today all they care about is balance sheets and profit. WoW does have to shoulder it's share of blame for this because it is a victim of it's own success but for the OP to lay all the blame at that door is wrong. Blizzard and WoW did nothing that other MMO's hadn't done before them. What they did do was to make the game simplistic in design so that one, it would run fine on low end machines and two, it was easy to pick up and play. On top of this they advertised the holy crap out of it and are still doing so today, a lesson that still has not been learned by other MMO producers.
There is a lot of talk about WoW killers on these and other forums and every other game that comes down the pipe has at least one thread titled 'is this the WoW killer'. Allow me to answer that question 'NO'. To be a WoW killer the new game ( whichever it is ) would have to be just as approachable as WoW to the masses and the company producing it would have to spend millions of dollars on global advertising for the entirity of the games projected life; and this is not something that looks good on a balance sheet. So how do we get better MMO's? Shoot the suits and give the creative power back to the guys that want to make them, but of course this will never happen. A much more likely scenario is an environment where all the indy developers have been swallowed up by EA, SoE, Activision who wage a constant threeway war for dominance. That should give them a clue about PvP as well come to think of it, THREE SIDES YOU DUMMIES, TWO JUST DON'T WORK
And the old farts will rally around Ghost and reminisce about the good ol' days while yelling at the stupid new kids to get off their lawns. Enjoy yourselves!
Wow....you just dont have a pulse on what is working in games do ya?
I think I have mentioned that MMORPGs cater to the casual because that is where the money is. That does not change that MMORPGs have been polluted by that mentality. It should be a separate genre. They are MMOs, but they are MMO grindfests. Then again, are they really even MMOs? You have smallish groups that are constantly sitting in instances, groups sitting in cities waiting to do something, and then a few people here and there doing other things. How is this any different than something akin to a lobby for a console game? That is basically what WoW is, and it is probably one of the reasons it is doing so well - you do the tutorial, and then sit around in a game lobby waiting to Arena/BG or do Heroics/Raids. It fits the casual mentality of quick pickup games quite well...which is fine for those kind of genres, but knowing that does not prevent one from pointing out how that has ruined MMORPGs.
The themeparks lately have been too narrow for my liking.....but it still doesnt detract from the fact the average person is a consumer. They are not builders.
And there are plenty of games out there for those average consumers. MMORPGs were not about the average consumers, and by making it about them - they have made the games...average, if that.
You are correct....sandboxes appeal to the folks that used to sit home on friday nights playing DnD back in high school. It was a niche then, and still is. You may see FFA PVP like rolling against a DM....I see some needle-dick whose only way to feel better about themselves is by engaging in auto-win scenarios(noob ganking) while spouting off "carebear" on brds. You wanna do something impressive, then be the tops in a game where everyone has the same chance. Any advantage is based only upon knowledge/skill. Not gear/lvls/skills.
There has never been that actual same chance thing. Even if you equalized the character, there were still issues with hardware and connection. The closest you could come to things like that were organized LAN events where everybody was on the same network and had the same hardware. Being the best at that is indeed impressive, but that would not be the only thing I would call impressive. Back in UO (way back before the Tram/Fel split), we used to hunt gankers. Winning with fewer numbers, setting folks up, and taking them down a notch was impressive. Back in Shadowbane, turning disadvantages into advantages to overcome the enemy was impressive. We had to think, the opponent did not follow some script. It was not a case of being able to watch videos on YouTube, read various wikis, look at maps so we knew where to stand, or having addons that told us what was about to happen...
What is working in MMO gaming is give folks mobs(content) to plow thru(solo/grp/raid), and give them rewards(loot) for doing so. The gear-carrot so to speak. Throw them some PVP areas, and the majority of folks are gtg.
So they might as well go play Yahoo! Games, MSN Zone, or any of those other foofoo fluffy meaningless games. Heck, look at how well Farmville is doing over on Facebook. Is that a good thing though? So what is wrong with pointing out that it is not?
It is the PnP folks wanting a virtual reality, like they used to have on Friday nights, that are making the biggest amount of noise. Folks didnt wanna hang out with the nerds on friday nights, and they dont want the sims online either. Thus we have an endless barrage here of what is essentally the same post being spewed daily.
Perhaps somebody will listen to all the noise, eh?
Anyways past my bed time....not meaning to come off rude but you guys just dont get it, and beyond tired of board being filled with this non-sense. Even among others your age/educational equivalent, what you see as fun we just see as work/boring.
We realize that you see it as work and boring. We understand that you want everything easy and handed to you. We want a challenge - you do not. But just because you do not want that, does not mean we should just grab our ankles and say thank you for something we do not consider to be fun.
And to be clear....I am not saying there is anything wrong with what you enjoy. To each their own. Just geez....can you guys quit re-gurgitating it ad-nauseum? As indicated....the repetitive threads are akin to the SWG vets over the past 4 yrs.
I actually quit SWG before NGE. I had not fought anything in about three months. I logged in each day to check on my houses, vendors, harvesters, and to do some crafting. I stopped playing because I realized that it had become a job where I paid somebody instead of getting paid. I never went back to the game after that, though pretty much every other game I have played I have done the resub shuffle. Still, the NGE thing is pretty much accepted as the biggest kick to the groin in the industry by most players. Personally though, I prefer to complain about Earth and Beyond or Auto Assault myself...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
And the old farts will rally around Ghost and reminisce about the good ol' days while yelling at the stupid new kids to get off their lawns. Enjoy yourselves!
At least you admit the new kids are stupid...
Your generation raised us....
Lies! Our generation did not want nor did we like you and left you to be raised by mass marketing... our bad.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
And the old farts will rally around Ghost and reminisce about the good ol' days while yelling at the stupid new kids to get off their lawns. Enjoy yourselves!
At least you admit the new kids are stupid...
Your generation raised us....
Yup. We spent hour after hour getting you to walk and talk and as soon as you did we told you to sit down and shut up. From that point on the TV raised you hehe
After all this, the OP should realize why developer stop making games for him.
The OP should ask himself how many games he have quit to play another instead.
Lineage 1 was release in 1998, and after 10 yeras, in 2008, it still have 1 million subscriber. I can still go to Taiwaness lineage 1 forum and see 2000 post counts in 1 day. And there's only 2 million people in my country.
5 years later after Wow's initial release, wow is still staying strong. Not only that, alot of them have played from beginnin and stayed.
The OP says he have so much fun with AC(yet he quit after 2 years for DAOC)...
He have fun with DAOC(yet he went to play wow instead, which he dont' even like)...
And the truth is DAOC's subscriber quickly falled dramatically 2 years after. And most likely due to new competition.
What I'm talking about here isn't the subscription number. It's about how long a MMO last. FFXI's subscribtion number is never huge, but it's always steady. And after all this years it's still steady.
My theory is people stimulated by exploration, advanture, excitement, danger, risk vs rewards, are more likely to quit their current MMO and move on to the next. Since when the stimulation run out, they quit. While the people that just want bigger swords to fight bigger dragon for bigger swods for bigger dragon tends to stay with their current MMO.
That theory may go too far. But really, all those fun game you said only have 2 years life spain. Tell me why the developer should bother to make another one just so you can quit in 2 years.
Five years later, and “modern” MMO's are still a disgrace. This is a RANT POST, so if you people dont want to read....(but you should read! You might find it insightful.)
Five years later, and “modern” MMO's are still a disgrace. This is a RANT POST, so if you people dont want to read....(but you should read! You might find it insightful.)
Once upon a time....
MMO's were complex and exciting.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
HA.... HA.... HA.........
......AAAAAHHH.....
Oh wait......
You were serious?
Well, actually, I'll bet he was.
SWG's crafting was a lot more in depth, DAOC's combat mechanics and interaction between classes was quite a bit more complicated than most games today. You used to be able to add specific stats to your character that actually had an impact on his career focus and abilities that most newer MMO's lack.
I think earlier MMO's were certainly more complex (take a look at EVE for example) however its probably debatable whetther or not the complexity actually made them exciting or fun. (apparently only for a select few of us, more casual players obviously don't care for them)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Five years later, and “modern” MMO's are still a disgrace. This is a RANT POST, so if you people dont want to read....(but you should read! You might find it insightful.)
Once upon a time....
MMO's were complex and exciting.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
HA.... HA.... HA.........
......AAAAAHHH.....
Oh wait......
You were serious?
Well, actually, I'll bet he was.
SWG's crafting was a lot more in depth, DAOC's combat mechanics and interaction between classes was quite a bit more complicated than most games today. You used to be able to add specific stats to your character that actually had an impact on his career focus and abilities that most newer MMO's lack.
I think earlier MMO's were certainly more complex (take a look at EVE for example) however its probably debatable whetther or not the complexity actually made them exciting or fun. (apparently only for a select few of us, more casual players obviously don't care for them)
Yes, but it's only complex if you take the time to figure it all out yourself. In practice, one nerd would chart everything out with Microsoft Excel, all RPGs are reall just spreadsheets under the hood, and then post it on Stratics and then everyone else would just tab in and out of the game to read said spreadsheet. When it's all laid out for you, the game is reduced to some rather simple and boring stat accounting.
Five years later, and “modern” MMO's are still a disgrace. This is a RANT POST, so if you people dont want to read....(but you should read! You might find it insightful.)
Once upon a time....
MMO's were complex and exciting.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
HA.... HA.... HA.........
......AAAAAHHH.....
Oh wait......
You were serious?
It's possible that you started playing at the time of WOW and stuck to mainstream MMOs thereafter. If that was the case, I can see how you'd hold that contention. However ATITD (2006 but I'll include it), UO, AC, SWG and even Puzzle Pirates were some of the earlier MMOs that fit the bill. They focused on player interaction (do not confuse that with 'grouping') and had what many consider to be deeper, more engaging gameplay.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It's possible that you started playing at the time of WOW and stuck to mainstream MMOs thereafter. If that was the case, I can see how you'd hold that contention. However ATITD (2006 but I'll include it), UO, AC, SWG and even Puzzle Pirates were some of the earlier MMOs that fit the bill. They focused on player interaction (do not confuse that with 'grouping') and had what many consider to be deeper, more engaging gameplay.
Old farts also believe that everything was better in their youth.
This is like the mini-version of it.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Five years later, and “modern” MMO's are still a disgrace. This is a RANT POST, so if you people dont want to read....(but you should read! You might find it insightful.)
Once upon a time....
MMO's were complex and exciting.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
HA.... HA.... HA.........
......AAAAAHHH.....
Oh wait......
You were serious?
It's possible that you started playing at the time of WOW and stuck to mainstream MMOs thereafter. If that was the case, I can see how you'd hold that contention. However ATITD (2006 but I'll include it), UO, AC, SWG and even Puzzle Pirates were some of the earlier MMOs that fit the bill. They focused on player interaction (do not confuse that with 'grouping') and had what many consider to be deeper, more engaging gameplay.
Started in MUDs back in '93. Later I played the free trail of Meridian 59 and was less than impressed. Then, by a friend's request, I picked up UO after the first expansion and played for about 3 months. Again, I thought it was incredibly boring. The user interface didn't help either. Then I did AC for about 3 months and was bored out of my mind. About the only MMO that I really liked was Guild Wars and it isn't even an MMO.
I've always been at a loss as to why I don't like this genre. Yes, I come from a flight sim and arcade gaming background, but I also like Roguelikes and seriously old school dungeon crawls like Etrian Odyssey where you have to draw your own map. I'm totally fine with a huge empty world and a complete lack of storyline, but something about MMORPGs just rubs me the wrong way. It isn't the complexity, because MMORPGs aren't complex to me. I mastered addition and subtraction in grade school.
My theory is people stimulated by exploration, advanture, excitement, danger, risk vs rewards, are more likely to quit their current MMO and move on to the next. Since when the stimulation run out, they quit. While the people that just want bigger swords to fight bigger dragon for bigger swods for bigger dragon tends to stay with their current MMO.
That theory may go too far. But really, all those fun game you said only have 2 years life spain. Tell me why the developer should bother to make another one just so you can quit in 2 years.
I pretty much agree with this. I also think that the extreme casuals stay in one game longer as well. I myself am very much on the explorer edge of the spectrum hence I have played just about every mmo out there from beginning to end (at the time) and several I go back to here and there for content expansions (ie WoW, skipped Burning Crusade and came back for wotlk, close to cancelling now and might skip cataclysm until the expansion after that :P).
As a gamer playing any game for two years is a feat in and of itself. There is only so much you can do in any game. I think the only games that I play continually for years and years are things like Civilization etc. There is enough different from each game I play that it keeps me interested. And when I look back at my mmo career the one that I stuck with the longest was Ultima Online and thats because I was a player gm. WoW, SWG, AC, WHO, DAOC, EQ2, etc etc etc all lose their entertainment value within 3-6 months some faster like Aion and CoH, for me.
While i agree with that theory, it's really not always true.
I would say i know around 30 people personally that play WoW, but none of them really 'play", if that makes sense. They log in twice a week for raids and that's it. They don't become immersed in the world or do anything meaningful to the world or economy. Yet they continue to keep their subs active and play other games.
Personally i think they're cheating themselves out of what an MMO is supposed to be. It's their right to do so of course, but i couldn't do it and think it's silly.
Five years later, and “modern” MMO's are still a disgrace. This is a RANT POST, so if you people dont want to read....(but you should read! You might find it insightful.)
Once upon a time....
MMO's were complex and exciting.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
HA.... HA.... HA.........
......AAAAAHHH.....
Oh wait......
You were serious?
It's possible that you started playing at the time of WOW and stuck to mainstream MMOs thereafter. If that was the case, I can see how you'd hold that contention. However ATITD (2006 but I'll include it), UO, AC, SWG and even Puzzle Pirates were some of the earlier MMOs that fit the bill. They focused on player interaction (do not confuse that with 'grouping') and had what many consider to be deeper, more engaging gameplay.
Nah .. i started with UO, EQ ... and i still have the same contention. UO does not have deeper gameplay. Its game mechanics was simple (just look at the spell designs) and really not better than modern MMOs (clicking on rock to mine, anyone?). The only difference is that it allows player griefing, and other bad behavior (like house ghettos) unchecked.
EQ got rid of a lot of those unwanted pvp but still it has too much camping and its mechanics wasn't that complex either. As i remember, there isn't any interesting CD or proc abilities in spell dps, and resource management is limited in variation (no rage, no energy, no runes ....). I was playing a wiz then and i remember the only mechanics are root, and damage spells with a casting time. There aren't instances with CD, temporarily boost spells, proc that you have to react to ....
While i agree with that theory, it's really not always true.
I would say i know around 30 people personally that play WoW, but none of them really 'play", if that makes sense. They log in twice a week for raids and that's it. They don't become immersed in the world or do anything meaningful to the world or economy. Yet they continue to keep their subs active and play other games.
Personally i think they're cheating themselves out of what an MMO is supposed to be. It's their right to do so of course, but i couldn't do it and think it's silly.
That is the kind of elitist attitude that i think is extremely silly. What make you the one who decide who a MMO "supposed" to be? There is no such thing. WOW is a game and all the players can play it anyway they see fit.
There is no "right' way.
In fact, sometimes i do what your frds did too. If i am a bit burned out, i just do one or two raids. If i feel up to it, i run some quests, or farm some stuff ... all depending on my mood. And god forbid sometimes i will just chat with guildmate & friends.
It is condenscending to think everyone needs to "immerse" or "do something meaningful" in a GAME. It is meaningful for me if i got a purple item for a nite. It is meaningful for me if i have 30 min to kill and have fun do a quick raid. It is meaningful for me if i go with my guildmates and fight the lich king.
I don't have time, and i don't want to "live" in WOW and play it like a job or my life.
While i agree with that theory, it's really not always true.
I would say i know around 30 people personally that play WoW, but none of them really 'play", if that makes sense. They log in twice a week for raids and that's it. They don't become immersed in the world or do anything meaningful to the world or economy. Yet they continue to keep their subs active and play other games.
Personally i think they're cheating themselves out of what an MMO is supposed to be. It's their right to do so of course, but i couldn't do it and think it's silly.
That is the kind of elitist attitude that i think is extremely silly. What make you the one who decide who a MMO "supposed" to be?
Because that's what happens when you put things in genres. You wouldn't call a third person action RPG a first person shooter would you? No. When MMORPGs came out, the term represented a specific style of game. The "MMOs" we're getting now are almost nothing like that specific style, so many think that they should not be called MMORPGs. Very few of them are even as massive as games were in 1999 and that's just pathetic, considering the tech back then, and the DIAL UP.
But MMO is a buzz word now, they won't make their own more appropriate genre name, or people will get confused.
Original MMOs had an entirely different scope, design, and focus than these new ones, and thus, many who grew up with what real MMORPGs were feel the title doesn't apply to the new ones. Simple as that, nothing elitist about it.
And the old farts will rally around Ghost and reminisce about the good ol' days while yelling at the stupid new kids to get off their lawns. Enjoy yourselves!
Not all the older gamers feel this way trust me. I cringe when I read most so called Vet posts.
Bravo OP i agree with all i have to say, I've never seen a industry regress so bad like this before, but i cant even seeing this changeing over the next few years.
Agree about AC. I've never had the fun / excitement again in any MMO that I had in AC:) But it had it's dark moments too in ym memory....unnattended macro's:( It was no fun being in a 8 man fellowship in 2006 and I was the only "live" person actually typing and fighting. It got lonely and I wandered over to Azeroth..
And they tried to make a game like the old school games and it didn't do well- Vanguard. Maybe it would have done well if the PC specs req. weren't so darn high at the time? I hope another developer gives it a shot in the future and makes the req. more moderate.
I've read up on Guild Wars 2. The Classes sound really good with hundreds of Trait set variations. It sounds old schoolish to me and I'm gonna give it a try. Read up on it!
Just remember though that playing ANY game is better than sitting on the couch watching TV:) I've been playing LoTRO for the last few yrs and the light-weight-ness of the game suits me now. I love the faster leveling pace and the plethora of solo quests because I don't want to devote 1000's of hours to grinding XP, like we had to in AC. I've evolved along with the games and I would try a sand box game if it came out, but I am VERY happy with the casual -mode games out now. I'm too old to grind for hours anyways LOL! I don't want to play a toon that takes 3 years to max out either
our dissappointment in how generic and boring and repetetive everything has become
Lol did you actually play any "old school" MMORPGs?
We all have, or we wouldn't be posting here. They were all quite different from one another, each had their own innovative and unique gameplay mechanics so that each time you played a new game, there was an exciting new feeling.
Now, I can bounce from WoW to WAR to AoC to LotRO and each will play exactly the same in almost every way. And they ALL start with a solo quest grind that bores me to tears. I've never gotten bored of a new MMO within 5 minutes until the new ones started coming out. There isn't even a redeeming social element because why would anyone group?
And the old farts will rally around Ghost and reminisce about the good ol' days while yelling at the stupid new kids to get off their lawns. Enjoy yourselves!
Not all the older gamers feel this way trust me. I cringe when I read most so called Vet posts.
Same here. Personally, I think MMOs are getting better.
Comments
Wow....you just dont have a pulse on what is working in games do ya?
The themeparks lately have been too narrow for my liking.....but it still doesnt detract from the fact the average person is a consumer. They are not builders.
You are correct....sandboxes appeal to the folks that used to sit home on friday nights playing DnD back in high school. It was a niche then, and still is. You may see FFA PVP like rolling against a DM....I see some needle-dick whose only way to feel better about themselves is by engaging in auto-win scenarios(noob ganking) while spouting off "carebear" on brds. You wanna do something impressive, then be the tops in a game where everyone has the same chance. Any advantage is based only upon knowledge/skill. Not gear/lvls/skills.
What is working in MMO gaming is give folks mobs(content) to plow thru(solo/grp/raid), and give them rewards(loot) for doing so. The gear-carrot so to speak. Throw them some PVP areas, and the majority of folks are gtg.
It is the PnP folks wanting a virtual reality, like they used to have on Friday nights, that are making the biggest amount of noise. Folks didnt wanna hang out with the nerds on friday nights, and they dont want the sims online either. Thus we have an endless barrage here of what is essentally the same post being spewed daily.
Anyways past my bed time....not meaning to come off rude but you guys just dont get it, and beyond tired of board being filled with this non-sense. Even among others your age/educational equivalent, what you see as fun we just see as work/boring.
And to be clear....I am not saying there is anything wrong with what you enjoy. To each their own. Just geez....can you guys quit re-gurgitating it ad-nauseum? As indicated....the repetitive threads are akin to the SWG vets over the past 4 yrs.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I mirror the frustrations of the OP, but I think those days are long gone. MMO's were a niche genre until WoW. It was the fluke that changed the industry and is why others try to copy their success. I do remain hopeful that one day an MMO will capture all the features that we all clamour for. Until then I'll stick to the Hype -> Interest -> Lifted NDA -> Crushing Disappointment. But hey, maybe Curt Schilling will save us all...haha j/k.
Good post with a lot of nostalgia. I am one of those old DAoC players and loved it at the time but there were major annoyances in those old games that in my opinion were mistakes in the overall design. The risk Vs reward systems you mentioned while great on paper very often turned into no more than frustrations and time sinks ( Ao's rez timer springs to mind ). I mean wtf was that rez timer about? a game mechanic that forced you to sit around doing sweet f.a for ten minutes just because you got killed. Okay it gave you time to make a coffee or stretch your legs but that is about all it was useful for.
Losing xp or levels due to being killed is another major mistake which has now been recognised as such by the industry and done away with. You call that risk and in an ideal utopian world it would work that way but it didn't did it? Tell me where the fun was in watching a huge wad of xp that had taken you almost a week to achieve vanish due to death by lag? Hey! if it was your fault and stupidity that got you killed fair comment but more times than not that death was caused by lag or some other asshat who had no idea how to play the damn game and caused a party wipe. How many old Ao players here have suffered death by exploding chest of uber roller rat because some nitwit opened the damn thing when the group were on the last dreggs of health after a hard boss fight?
The problem with the MMO industry today isn't the theme park / sandbox argument as I honestly think there is plenty room for both. The problem is greed, pure and simple. The old games were developed by small companies that were passionate about what they were making; They cared about the game and it showed. Today all they care about is balance sheets and profit. WoW does have to shoulder it's share of blame for this because it is a victim of it's own success but for the OP to lay all the blame at that door is wrong. Blizzard and WoW did nothing that other MMO's hadn't done before them. What they did do was to make the game simplistic in design so that one, it would run fine on low end machines and two, it was easy to pick up and play. On top of this they advertised the holy crap out of it and are still doing so today, a lesson that still has not been learned by other MMO producers.
There is a lot of talk about WoW killers on these and other forums and every other game that comes down the pipe has at least one thread titled 'is this the WoW killer'. Allow me to answer that question 'NO'. To be a WoW killer the new game ( whichever it is ) would have to be just as approachable as WoW to the masses and the company producing it would have to spend millions of dollars on global advertising for the entirity of the games projected life; and this is not something that looks good on a balance sheet. So how do we get better MMO's? Shoot the suits and give the creative power back to the guys that want to make them, but of course this will never happen. A much more likely scenario is an environment where all the indy developers have been swallowed up by EA, SoE, Activision who wage a constant threeway war for dominance. That should give them a clue about PvP as well come to think of it, THREE SIDES YOU DUMMIES, TWO JUST DON'T WORK
Your generation raised us....
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Lies! Our generation did not want nor did we like you and left you to be raised by mass marketing... our bad.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Yup. We spent hour after hour getting you to walk and talk and as soon as you did we told you to sit down and shut up. From that point on the TV raised you hehe
After all this, the OP should realize why developer stop making games for him.
The OP should ask himself how many games he have quit to play another instead.
Lineage 1 was release in 1998, and after 10 yeras, in 2008, it still have 1 million subscriber. I can still go to Taiwaness lineage 1 forum and see 2000 post counts in 1 day. And there's only 2 million people in my country.
5 years later after Wow's initial release, wow is still staying strong. Not only that, alot of them have played from beginnin and stayed.
The OP says he have so much fun with AC(yet he quit after 2 years for DAOC)...
He have fun with DAOC(yet he went to play wow instead, which he dont' even like)...
And the truth is DAOC's subscriber quickly falled dramatically 2 years after. And most likely due to new competition.
What I'm talking about here isn't the subscription number. It's about how long a MMO last. FFXI's subscribtion number is never huge, but it's always steady. And after all this years it's still steady.
My theory is people stimulated by exploration, advanture, excitement, danger, risk vs rewards, are more likely to quit their current MMO and move on to the next. Since when the stimulation run out, they quit. While the people that just want bigger swords to fight bigger dragon for bigger swods for bigger dragon tends to stay with their current MMO.
That theory may go too far. But really, all those fun game you said only have 2 years life spain. Tell me why the developer should bother to make another one just so you can quit in 2 years.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
HA.... HA.... HA.........
......AAAAAHHH.....
Oh wait......
You were serious?
Well, actually, I'll bet he was.
SWG's crafting was a lot more in depth, DAOC's combat mechanics and interaction between classes was quite a bit more complicated than most games today. You used to be able to add specific stats to your character that actually had an impact on his career focus and abilities that most newer MMO's lack.
I think earlier MMO's were certainly more complex (take a look at EVE for example) however its probably debatable whetther or not the complexity actually made them exciting or fun. (apparently only for a select few of us, more casual players obviously don't care for them)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Yes, but it's only complex if you take the time to figure it all out yourself. In practice, one nerd would chart everything out with Microsoft Excel, all RPGs are reall just spreadsheets under the hood, and then post it on Stratics and then everyone else would just tab in and out of the game to read said spreadsheet. When it's all laid out for you, the game is reduced to some rather simple and boring stat accounting.
It's possible that you started playing at the time of WOW and stuck to mainstream MMOs thereafter. If that was the case, I can see how you'd hold that contention. However ATITD (2006 but I'll include it), UO, AC, SWG and even Puzzle Pirates were some of the earlier MMOs that fit the bill. They focused on player interaction (do not confuse that with 'grouping') and had what many consider to be deeper, more engaging gameplay.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Old farts also believe that everything was better in their youth.
This is like the mini-version of it.
Started in MUDs back in '93. Later I played the free trail of Meridian 59 and was less than impressed. Then, by a friend's request, I picked up UO after the first expansion and played for about 3 months. Again, I thought it was incredibly boring. The user interface didn't help either. Then I did AC for about 3 months and was bored out of my mind. About the only MMO that I really liked was Guild Wars and it isn't even an MMO.
I've always been at a loss as to why I don't like this genre. Yes, I come from a flight sim and arcade gaming background, but I also like Roguelikes and seriously old school dungeon crawls like Etrian Odyssey where you have to draw your own map. I'm totally fine with a huge empty world and a complete lack of storyline, but something about MMORPGs just rubs me the wrong way. It isn't the complexity, because MMORPGs aren't complex to me. I mastered addition and subtraction in grade school.
I pretty much agree with this. I also think that the extreme casuals stay in one game longer as well. I myself am very much on the explorer edge of the spectrum hence I have played just about every mmo out there from beginning to end (at the time) and several I go back to here and there for content expansions (ie WoW, skipped Burning Crusade and came back for wotlk, close to cancelling now and might skip cataclysm until the expansion after that :P).
As a gamer playing any game for two years is a feat in and of itself. There is only so much you can do in any game. I think the only games that I play continually for years and years are things like Civilization etc. There is enough different from each game I play that it keeps me interested. And when I look back at my mmo career the one that I stuck with the longest was Ultima Online and thats because I was a player gm. WoW, SWG, AC, WHO, DAOC, EQ2, etc etc etc all lose their entertainment value within 3-6 months some faster like Aion and CoH, for me.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
While i agree with that theory, it's really not always true.
I would say i know around 30 people personally that play WoW, but none of them really 'play", if that makes sense. They log in twice a week for raids and that's it. They don't become immersed in the world or do anything meaningful to the world or economy. Yet they continue to keep their subs active and play other games.
Personally i think they're cheating themselves out of what an MMO is supposed to be. It's their right to do so of course, but i couldn't do it and think it's silly.
Nah .. i started with UO, EQ ... and i still have the same contention. UO does not have deeper gameplay. Its game mechanics was simple (just look at the spell designs) and really not better than modern MMOs (clicking on rock to mine, anyone?). The only difference is that it allows player griefing, and other bad behavior (like house ghettos) unchecked.
EQ got rid of a lot of those unwanted pvp but still it has too much camping and its mechanics wasn't that complex either. As i remember, there isn't any interesting CD or proc abilities in spell dps, and resource management is limited in variation (no rage, no energy, no runes ....). I was playing a wiz then and i remember the only mechanics are root, and damage spells with a casting time. There aren't instances with CD, temporarily boost spells, proc that you have to react to ....
That is the kind of elitist attitude that i think is extremely silly. What make you the one who decide who a MMO "supposed" to be? There is no such thing. WOW is a game and all the players can play it anyway they see fit.
There is no "right' way.
In fact, sometimes i do what your frds did too. If i am a bit burned out, i just do one or two raids. If i feel up to it, i run some quests, or farm some stuff ... all depending on my mood. And god forbid sometimes i will just chat with guildmate & friends.
It is condenscending to think everyone needs to "immerse" or "do something meaningful" in a GAME. It is meaningful for me if i got a purple item for a nite. It is meaningful for me if i have 30 min to kill and have fun do a quick raid. It is meaningful for me if i go with my guildmates and fight the lich king.
I don't have time, and i don't want to "live" in WOW and play it like a job or my life.
Because that's what happens when you put things in genres. You wouldn't call a third person action RPG a first person shooter would you? No. When MMORPGs came out, the term represented a specific style of game. The "MMOs" we're getting now are almost nothing like that specific style, so many think that they should not be called MMORPGs. Very few of them are even as massive as games were in 1999 and that's just pathetic, considering the tech back then, and the DIAL UP.
But MMO is a buzz word now, they won't make their own more appropriate genre name, or people will get confused.
Original MMOs had an entirely different scope, design, and focus than these new ones, and thus, many who grew up with what real MMORPGs were feel the title doesn't apply to the new ones. Simple as that, nothing elitist about it.
Not all the older gamers feel this way trust me. I cringe when I read most so called Vet posts.
Bravo OP i agree with all i have to say, I've never seen a industry regress so bad like this before, but i cant even seeing this changeing over the next few years.
SAD
Ghost,
Agree about AC. I've never had the fun / excitement again in any MMO that I had in AC:) But it had it's dark moments too in ym memory....unnattended macro's:( It was no fun being in a 8 man fellowship in 2006 and I was the only "live" person actually typing and fighting. It got lonely and I wandered over to Azeroth..
And they tried to make a game like the old school games and it didn't do well- Vanguard. Maybe it would have done well if the PC specs req. weren't so darn high at the time? I hope another developer gives it a shot in the future and makes the req. more moderate.
I've read up on Guild Wars 2. The Classes sound really good with hundreds of Trait set variations. It sounds old schoolish to me and I'm gonna give it a try. Read up on it!
Just remember though that playing ANY game is better than sitting on the couch watching TV:) I've been playing LoTRO for the last few yrs and the light-weight-ness of the game suits me now. I love the faster leveling pace and the plethora of solo quests because I don't want to devote 1000's of hours to grinding XP, like we had to in AC. I've evolved along with the games and I would try a sand box game if it came out, but I am VERY happy with the casual -mode games out now. I'm too old to grind for hours anyways LOL! I don't want to play a toon that takes 3 years to max out either
Lori
Lol did you actually play any "old school" MMORPGs?
We all have, or we wouldn't be posting here. They were all quite different from one another, each had their own innovative and unique gameplay mechanics so that each time you played a new game, there was an exciting new feeling.
Now, I can bounce from WoW to WAR to AoC to LotRO and each will play exactly the same in almost every way. And they ALL start with a solo quest grind that bores me to tears. I've never gotten bored of a new MMO within 5 minutes until the new ones started coming out. There isn't even a redeeming social element because why would anyone group?
Same here. Personally, I think MMOs are getting better.