Let's take a stab at an exercise in debate, since you conveniently sidestepped the biggest obstacle to your reasoning:
- You will counter the validity of Project 1999
- I will support the assertion of 'people'.
Only once we have both done our half will we pursue further. We will wait, as it were, for the other to finish.
I'll start:
'People'. I could put down a claim of 20 screen names offhand I've seen make this direct proposition on MMORPG. More if I cared to consider other sites with which I've had extensive history (EJ, FFXI guild, several WoW guilds...). This is 1 man's sample. A proper industry poll would obviously yield far great numbers. But to 'what extent'?
1. We will never know, until it is actually done. Reference 'models changing only when finances go red'. It won't be done, until the existing model fails.
2. It's already happening. Reference again: Project 1999. The time, as well as personal cash, and the community's role (not necessarily directly financial in nature) all represent more than a simple 15/mo. Well beyond it, if all the experts involved were billed at industry wages, and the community directly partook in the financial system.
3. Free trade. This is my catch-all. Premiums. Is there a need for a cross-stitched white wifebeater marked at $120 a pop? Nope! But wait! After that Twilight poster came out, I personally can vouch for a distributor operating out of her home that has shipped more than 30 authentic units (exact replicas) worldwide. Do people want a 'niche game'? Absolutely. Can it be made 'financially viable' through markups? Absolutely. Apple does it compared to PCs. Lambo does it compared to Honda. And the MMORPG industry is different in what way? That last one was a rhetoric.
So there we have it. 'People' has been supported. I'll kindly wait for your refute of 'Project 1999'.
Worldserver Name:
Project 1999 - Classic Legit PVE Progression
Server Version:
0.8.0
Server Status:
UP
Players Online:
508
Average Players:
412
Max Players:
776
Congrats to all 776 of you. That is actually quite impressive for a free 3rd party server I'm not lying or joking. But it's not like this is being developed by a dev studio. And it's not like they are funded by anything other then donations or volunteer programming work at the hands of a few.
And UO has had free private shards for 10 years. WoW has had them for 4-5. Many other games like Lineage 2 have had free shards for a while.
So your point is? I could probably find you 10 UO and WoW and L2 free shards with higher populations.
Though I'll say again I'm GLAD this project exists and can help support the MMO needs of a segment of the community.
We need a small company of skilled devs that are smart enough to aim for the 500k subs number instead of the 3 million.
I agree completely.
I'm waiting too, trust me.
Oh I agree there as well. Problem is, pretty much every skilled smart enough developer out there is more concerend right now with getting a paycheck to keep their houses and feed their families than they are about revolutionizing the MMO industry.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
We need a small company of skilled devs that are smart enough to aim for the 500k subs number instead of the 3 million.
I agree completely.
I'm waiting too, trust me.
Oh I agree there as well. Problem is, pretty much every skilled smart enough developer out there is more concerend right now with getting a paycheck to keep their houses and feed their families than they are about revolutionizing the MMO industry.
I can't blame em though, these are hard times for many people.
Usually it's the ones with the most talent and natural "flare" the programmers and artists and QA testers etc. that are first on the chopping block when the budget crunches come.
To each his own. I'm sorry you can't seem to find what you want in MMOs today, but not all MMOs should be the way you say either.
More diversified classes? Sure, sign me up for that. As long as each and every one of them is viable in PvE.
PvP - Don't care for it in the slightest. This goes for RvR or any kind of battlegrounds you can think of. I have always and will continue to ignore every "duel?" that's offered me. If pvp is not in an MMO I'm playing, I'll never miss it. And if it is, keep it the hell away from interfering with my PvE experience in every way; no class changes, no ganking, no killing NPCs I need, etc.
Story? I love story. Story is the number 1 reason I'll be playing Bioware's new game.
Harsh penalties? Yawn. When I die in an single player game, I reload at the last save, as fully intact as I was when I saved. I like that. I'd like to have the same feature in an MMO, but a minor to non-existant penalty is as close as I can hope for. I see harsh penalties as nothing more than a timesink.
Is my opinion more right than yours? No, it's just right for me. The only thing that's "wrong" with your post is saying that MMO's suck if they don't meet your definition. Good luck in your search.
To each his own. I'm sorry you can't seem to find what you want in MMOs today, but not all MMOs should be the way you say either.
More diversified classes? Sure, sign me up for that. As long as each and every one of them is viable in PvE.
PvP - Don't care for it in the slightest. This goes for RvR or any kind of battlegrounds you can think of. I have always and will continue to ignore every "duel?" that's offered me. If pvp is not in an MMO I'm playing, I'll never miss it. And if it is, keep it the hell away from interfering with my PvE experience in every way; no class changes, no ganking, no killing NPCs I need, etc.
Story? I love story. Story is the number 1 reason I'll be playing Bioware's new game.
Harsh penalties? Yawn. When I die in an single player game, I reload at the last save, as fully intact as I was when I saved. I like that. I'd like to have the same feature in an MMO, but a minor to non-existant penalty is as close as I can hope for. I see harsh penalties as nothing more than a timesink.
Is my opinion more right than yours? No, it's just right for me. The only thing that's "wrong" with your post is saying that MMO's suck if they don't meet your definition. Good luck in your search.
Be careful, you'll probably be called a "noob" or a "carebear" or an "idiot" and be told to go back to WoW and stick to console games and then something about single player chat rooms etc. etc. etc.
To each his own. I'm sorry you can't seem to find what you want in MMOs today, but not all MMOs should be the way you say either.
More diversified classes? Sure, sign me up for that. As long as each and every one of them is viable in PvE.
PvP - Don't care for it in the slightest. This goes for RvR or any kind of battlegrounds you can think of. I have always and will continue to ignore every "duel?" that's offered me. If pvp is not in an MMO I'm playing, I'll never miss it. And if it is, keep it the hell away from interfering with my PvE experience in every way; no class changes, no ganking, no killing NPCs I need, etc.
Story? I love story. Story is the number 1 reason I'll be playing Bioware's new game.
Harsh penalties? Yawn. When I die in an single player game, I reload at the last save, as fully intact as I was when I saved. I like that. I'd like to have the same feature in an MMO, but a minor to non-existant penalty is as close as I can hope for. I see harsh penalties as nothing more than a timesink.
Is my opinion more right than yours? No, it's just right for me. The only thing that's "wrong" with your post is saying that MMO's suck if they don't meet your definition. Good luck in your search.
100% agreed. In Guild Wars, death penalties eventually make quests unconquerable. My play hours are weird, so I'm commonly stuck running heroes and henchies nowadays, and once you're up to 40-60% DP, forget it. Back to the outpost to start over. Complete timesink.
First there is clearly a demand for an old school MMO. Your right , not in the numbers like WOW has but there is a demand. Your "friend" and his team did a very poor job of research if they came to the conclusion that their is no demand.
I really don't think that this is true.
Not when one actually casts ones mind back to what the old-school players preferences were. There's a rose-tinted tendancy to lump all "old school" players into one happy little family that is at odds with the "post-WoW players". It's not true at all.
If you were to make an "old school" game; what type of one would you make?
An EQ style group PVE grind/camp/raid game?
An UO style (pre-trammel) FFA-PvP sandbox with full loot?
A DAOC style 3-faction RvR focused game?
An SWG style (pre-CU) PVE sandbox focused on crafting and non-combat skills?
The "my game is better than your game" debate raged back then just as much as it does now, and developers simply won't be able to cater to every "old school" player at once. Too many conflicting playstyles.
Then what would you do; spend untold millions making AAA versions of all 4 games?
There's just not enough financial incentive in it for the moneymen. Sad, but true.
Is my opinion more right than yours? No, it's just right for me. The only thing that's "wrong" with your post is saying that MMO's suck if they don't meet your definition. Good luck in your search.
Again you missed the point, the OP is not saying MMOs suck, the OP is saying the MMOs suck for him/her and his/her type of gamer. Is that really that hard to understand?
Listen, there are gamers out there that hate the way the current state of the MMO genre is and we expect that we are the minority, we accept that casauls and instant gradification have taken over the market and are now the driving force behind the changes. We accept that we are not longer catered to but what we do not accept and will never accept is being ignored as a group and made to change what we want IN OUR GAMES.
First there is clearly a demand for an old school MMO. Your right , not in the numbers like WOW has but there is a demand. Your "friend" and his team did a very poor job of research if they came to the conclusion that their is no demand.
I really don't think that this is true.
Not when one actually casts ones mind back to what the old-school players preferences were. There's a rose-tinted tendancy to lump all "old school" players into one happy little family that is at odds with the "post-WoW players". It's not true at all.
If you were to make an "old school" game; what type of one would you make?
An EQ style group PVE grind/camp/raid game?
An UO style (pre-trammel) FFA-PvP sandbox with full loot?
A DAOC style 3-faction RvR focused game?
An SWG style (pre-CU) PVE sandbox focused on crafting and non-combat skills?
The "my game is better than your game" debate raged back then just as much as it does now, and developers simply won't be able to cater to every "old school" player at once. Too many conflicting playstyles.
Then what would you do; spend untold millions making AAA versions of all 4 games?
There's just not enough financial incentive in it for the moneymen. Sad, but true.
All of the above would be fine, thank you and come again.
A group style sandbox PvE game with an indepth crafting system and RvR PvP system which could allow non PvPs to avoid PvP. One server with a full loot rule set. Boom Done, thank you. (Think EvE on the Ground)
Not that hard really if you think about it. EvEs depths in a Fantasy setting. It would be a good niche game with a good population.
All of the above would be fine, thank you and come again.
A group style sandbox PvE game with an indepth crafting system and RvR PvP system with limit rule set to allow non PvPs to avoid PvP. (Think EvE on the Ground)
Not that hard really if you think about it. EvEs depths in a Fantasy setting. It would be a good niche game with a good population.
Mmmmmmm, EVE on the ground. Build it, and they will come.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Is my opinion more right than yours? No, it's just right for me. The only thing that's "wrong" with your post is saying that MMO's suck if they don't meet your definition. Good luck in your search.
Again you missed the point, the OP is not saying MMOs suck, the OP is saying the MMOs suck for him/her and his/her type of gamer. Is that really that hard to understand?
Listen, there are gamers out there that hate the way the current state of the MMO genre is and we expect that we are the minority, we accept that casauls and instant gradification have taken over the market and are now the driving force behind the changes. We accept that we are not longer catered to but what we do not accept and will never accept is being ignored as a group and made to change what we want IN OUR GAMES.
IMO
And there are companies trying to make games for that crowd; the problem time and time again boils down to production quality, rampant hacks, missing/bugged content, etc.. etc.. The list just goes on.
I too feel the pain.. I'd LOVE a sandbox game with the prouction quality seen in some good theme park games. I'd eat it up so much I'd probably lose my job playing it because I forgot to go into the office for a week..
But the reality is, it simply isn't going to happen anytime soon.. I'd love to see that statement proven wrong though. Any big dev is more than welcome to step up to the plate and drop $100 million to make a liar out of me. Blizzard?? BioWare?? Anyone... Hell.. Microsoft?? Somebody.. ANYBODY... hello... ello... llo... lo... o.....
/sniffle
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
In Anarchy Online you used to lose your xp if you died. Later, they made it less harsh. Your lost xp went in a pool and you gained it back gradually. Pretty neat. But if someone comes along and smacks a mob you're fighting and kills it, they take your stuff and walk away, scott free. You can't hit them. What the hell is with that BS? But to give credit where credit is due, Anarchy Online was relatively quest free (not grind free, mind you, but quest free). The mobs are also none too bright and very predictable.
WoW is full of kids that you want to hit in real life, talking racist garbage in trade chat, and yes, on the pvp servers, running around killing questers with their level 80 deathknights. Boring and annoying. Plus, too many quests. But they got the dungeon finder idea spot on, it's a good system, and you can solo pretty easily. Much smarter AI than Anarchy Online boasts, too.
Eve Online. Hm. I love sci-fi, and I don't have to quest (or run missions if I don't want to, ever). But...it could be more immersive. The reason I would never want to be a mission runner in Eve is, staring at a bunch of blinky red crosses all day gets boring. Skilling up while I sleep, okay, that's nice, but I'm hard pressed to figure out why I should even log in for a month or so, seeing as everyone who has been playing for years will just stomp me the minute I try any pvp activity, and what else is there to do? Play .01 wars in stations? Mine? Something is missing.
Thanks for mentioning Dark Age of Camelot, guess what, it's still around! I'm downloading it for the free 14 day trial, just for giggles and why not?
And so I ask you, why don't you just go back to playing these old games that are so much better than WoW and its clones? Vote with your wallets, people. If the old games are really better than the new ones, stop playing the new ones and go back to any old ones that are still around. I promise you, that will get game designer's attention in a way that no forum post on the topic ever will.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
All of the above would be fine, thank you and come again.
A group style sandbox PvE game with an indepth crafting system and RvR PvP system with limit rule set to allow non PvPs to avoid PvP. (Think EvE on the Ground)
Not that hard really if you think about it. EvEs depths in a Fantasy setting. It would be a good niche game with a good population.
Mmmmmmm, EVE on the ground. Build it, and they will come.
I think they are, and it will probably be released under the name World of Darkness.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Like someone wrote in his, her blog a real cataclysm. The last 5 years been horrible for a MMORPG player. Vanguard - our savior - got sabotaged by Sony. At this point its really time for a cataclysm flushing away all the big greedy studios releasing one "wowtype" and other negatives we are cursed with since 2005.
In a more specific manner:
remove the braindead quest-driven gameplay
remove auto-maps
remove minimaps
let the so called "publishers" know that 500k is an impressive success
getting rid of limited character-customization
return of deep and impressive gameplay
making sure you have to eat, drink while resting in order to regain health, mana if you aren't a healer
having to read the spellbook to load your spells
bring back the 72men raids
return of risk vs reward: more challenge and risk -> better reward
no effort no reward, no gain remove instances remove officially forums most are just filled with spoiled whinners so useless brinb back xp lost in combination with corpse runs remove: bind of equip/pickup remove fast paced combat be honest with your audience and stick with them! bring back intense crafting rewared group players instead of egomaniac soloers the more classes the better: tank, healer, dd, supporter, scout, pet classes (hybrid) bring back life events remove autostats: I want to decide where I'M putting my points
[quote]
[i]Ghost12 wrote[/i]
And WAR...the successor to DAOC, was a complete and utter joke. Mythic's handling of WAR was and still is shameful. I spent 8 weeks, 8 excruciating weeks in that game before quitting out of utter boredom. What a terrible disappointment to the company that created DAOC.
Even Bioware. Even you. All they can offer me is story. Ho ho ho! You Bioware, you have the same classes, the same 4 to 5 classes with two sides - let me guess, youre going to offer me some BG's on Correllia and Naboo, man, that sounds fun! Dying only to be respawned good as new 15 seconds later – man that sounds exciting. The never ending Jedi – Sith war, man, that sounds fun. I should feel special being a Jedi – oh wait, everyone is gonna be running around with a lightsaber – guess not.
[/quote]
WAR is coming...I remember that slogan its such a shame how Mythic handled this IP and somehow managed to fuck up big time. Think it takes lots of skill to ruin a game with everything in please: $, worldwide famous IP and a working former skinset (Daoc). Way of wasting 80 - 100 million $.
Still can't believe Bioware is going that route. I mentioned it somewhere else, yaaay! story and fully voiced as an USP will not be enough to meet their owners unrealistically expectations. It will be very interesting what they are showing us at the E3 although I wouldn't count on anything innovative. BW you guys are having a budget of 100 million +, Star Wars IP and yet refuse to take the Baldurs Gate route instead focusing on a shooter called Mass Effect (yeah its not a RPG).
As for voting with my wallet I already did though can't go back to Everquest 1 because its not even a shallow of a former oustanding game its streamlined, dumbed down, RMT filled and ruined forever.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Like someone wrote in his, her blog a real cataclysm. The last 5 years been horrible for a MMORPG player. Vanguard - our savior - got sabotaged by Sony. At this point its really time for a cataclysm flushing away all the big greedy studios releasing one "wowtype" and other negatives we are cursed with since 2005.
In a more specific manner:
remove the braindead quest-driven gameplay
remove auto-maps
remove minimaps
let the so called "publishers" know that 500k is an impressive success
getting rid of limited character-customization
return of deep and impressive gameplay
making sure you have to eat, drink while resting in order to regain health, mana if you aren't a healer
having to read the spellbook to load your spells
bring back the 72men raids
return of risk vs reward: more challenge and risk -> better reward
no effort no reward, no gain
remove instances
remove officially forums most are just filled with spoiled whinners so useless
brinb back xp lost in combination with corpse runs
remove: bind of equip/pickup
remove fast paced combat
be honest with your audience and stick with them!
bring back intense crafting
rewared group players instead of egomaniac soloers
the more classes the better: tank, healer, dd, supporter, scout, pet classes (hybrid)
bring back life events
remove autostats: I want to decide where I'M putting my points
It already exists -- it's called EQ1. Plays largely the same it did 8 years ago. Have at it.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Like someone wrote in his, her blog a real cataclysm. The last 5 years been horrible for a MMORPG player. Vanguard - our savior - got sabotaged by Sony. At this point its really time for a cataclysm flushing away all the big greedy studios releasing one "wowtype" and other negatives we are cursed with since 2005.
In a more specific manner:
remove the braindead quest-driven gameplay
remove auto-maps
remove minimaps
let the so called "publishers" know that 500k is an impressive success
getting rid of limited character-customization
return of deep and impressive gameplay
making sure you have to eat, drink while resting in order to regain health, mana if you aren't a healer
having to read the spellbook to load your spells
bring back the 72men raids
return of risk vs reward: more challenge and risk -> better reward
no effort no reward, no gain
remove instances
remove officially forums most are just filled with spoiled whinners so useless
brinb back xp lost in combination with corpse runs
remove: bind of equip/pickup
remove fast paced combat
be honest with your audience and stick with them!
bring back intense crafting
rewared group players instead of egomaniac soloers
the more classes the better: tank, healer, dd, supporter, scout, pet classes (hybrid)
bring back life events
remove autostats: I want to decide where I'M putting my points
It already exists -- it's called EQ1. Plays largely the same it did 8 years ago. Have at it.
Sadly its dumbed down endlessly
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Far as I know, DAOC, EQ1, AC haven't shut down yet....servers are still up. Go play them. Easy solution rather than ranting.
_____________________________ Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Far as I know, DAOC, EQ1, AC haven't shut down yet....servers are still up. Go play them. Easy solution rather than ranting.
Thank you so much for making a fool of yourself. Why both coming into a thread like this with absolutely no knowledge of the subject? If we could go back to those games, we would.
I endorse the OP's rant. But I do think there are a few cool games in the works that might be fun and a bit different. World of Darkness and The Secret World, being two.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I played MMORPG's back then too(I even played on Darktide for two years!), and though they were fun for their time, they were limited in scope and game mechanics - UO was the exception but it was top down isometric and sadly it needed to upgrade to better graphics to stay competitive.
I did love the time I spent playing those old MMORPG's like UO, AC and DAoC, but even I can admit that they lacked a lot of things.
I still say there is room for an awesome sandbox game. One with more open character development, better game mechanics that are deeper and more challenging than what we see today...the problem is a lot of gamers just don't want to mess with things that require them to think or to use their imaginations(EvE and other sandbox players excluded).
I remember people bitching and moaning about the complexity of AC's skill system and how attributes worked. All one had to do to learn what DEX did was RTFM! Did they bother? No.
I am still a proponent of skill based games, but with that I would love to see actual skill based games and not point and click games. I love how TaleWorlds character progression works and how it plays into the way your character performs. Why more MMORPG's do not use this style is beyond me.
Is my opinion more right than yours? No, it's just right for me. The only thing that's "wrong" with your post is saying that MMO's suck if they don't meet your definition. Good luck in your search.
Again you missed the point, the OP is not saying MMOs suck, the OP is saying the MMOs suck for him/her and his/her type of gamer. Is that really that hard to understand?
Listen, there are gamers out there that hate the way the current state of the MMO genre is and we expect that we are the minority, we accept that casauls and instant gradification have taken over the market and are now the driving force behind the changes. We accept that we are not longer catered to but what we do not accept and will never accept is being ignored as a group and made to change what we want IN OUR GAMES.
IMO
Let see, the title of the thread is "Five years later, and MMO's are still a joke. What a disgrace" .. it does not say .. ."MMOs are still a joke for me".
It sounds like the OP is saying MMOs suck. Isn't it so hard to understand that he is left behind by the market and ranting? Which probably will result into nothing but more bitterness and ranting on internet forums.
Even Bioware. Even you. All they can offer me is story. Ho ho ho! You Bioware, you have the same classes, the same 4 to 5 classes with two sides - let me guess, youre going to offer me some BG's on Correllia and Naboo, man, that sounds fun! Dying only to be respawned good as new 15 seconds later – man that sounds exciting. The never ending Jedi – Sith war, man, that sounds fun. I should feel special being a Jedi – oh wait, everyone is gonna be running around with a lightsaber – guess not.
All I can do when I see a new ad for a MMO is roll my eyes and laugh.
What a joke.
I agree with some of the original posters points, but actually I do think TOR will be fun.
It might not be, but what I've seen so far looks like a lot of ef you en.
I want to get in groups and do missions with multiplayer dialog. I'm seriously looking forward to trying this, and I'm going to be quite disappointed if it turns out to be a piece of crap.
I certainly don't want to be "special" in an MMORPG. I want to play a fun character, not be "special". What's wrong with everyone having a a light saber? IN the Old Republic there were a lot of Jedi and Sith.
Far as I know, DAOC, EQ1, AC haven't shut down yet....servers are still up. Go play them. Easy solution rather than ranting.
Thank you so much for making a fool of yourself. Why both coming into a thread like this with absolutely no knowledge of the subject? If we could go back to those games, we would.
I dont' know why you think it's a fool comment. I can go to the lineage 1 forum in my small country Taiwan of 2million people and see 2000 post counts a day. And as far as I know lineage 1 have been out for 12 years.
I dont' deny I'm trying to make a somewhat sarcastic comment. But you guys don't really see the problem. It's the life span of the MMO.
All you guys wants is for developer to keep making "new" and fun games for you. But you forget how fast you guys desert your current game to move to the next game.
Games like Wow, Lineage, Eve, FFonline, Lotro is a success. Because after all this year, it isn't affect much by other competition.
The only thing the OP see is AC and DAOC is fun. What he don't see is how fast he quit those games for other games.
Far as I know, DAOC, EQ1, AC haven't shut down yet....servers are still up. Go play them. Easy solution rather than ranting.
Thank you so much for making a fool of yourself. Why both coming into a thread like this with absolutely no knowledge of the subject? If we could go back to those games, we would.
I dont' know why you think it's a fool comment. I can go to the lineage 1 forum in my small country Taiwan of 2million people and see 2000 post counts a day. And as far as I know lineage 1 have been out for 12 years.
I dont' deny I'm trying to make a somewhat sarcastic comment. But you guys don't really see the problem. It's the life span of the MMO.
All you guys wants is for developer to keep making "new" and fun games for you. But you forget how fast you guys desert your current game to move to the next game.
The only thing the OP see is AC and DAOC is fun. What he don't see is how fast he quit those games for other games.
I stayed with Dark Age of Camelot for 5 years. I've tried multiple times to go back, but it isn't the same game at all. I can't go back to DAoC, just like people can't go back to pre NGE SWG, or pre Trammel Ultima Online. The games NO LONGER EXIST. That's why its a fool comment. The games in their current state are unsupported/changed from what they once were. That's why people left DAoC, because it stopped being the same game that 250 thousand people were subscribed to. Once it totally changed focus into a PvE grinding game, everyone left. We can't go back. How is this hard to understand?
Comments
Worldserver Name:
Project 1999 - Classic Legit PVE Progression
Server Version:
0.8.0
Server Status:
UP
Players Online:
508
Average Players:
412
Max Players:
776
Congrats to all 776 of you. That is actually quite impressive for a free 3rd party server I'm not lying or joking. But it's not like this is being developed by a dev studio. And it's not like they are funded by anything other then donations or volunteer programming work at the hands of a few.
And UO has had free private shards for 10 years. WoW has had them for 4-5. Many other games like Lineage 2 have had free shards for a while.
So your point is? I could probably find you 10 UO and WoW and L2 free shards with higher populations.
Though I'll say again I'm GLAD this project exists and can help support the MMO needs of a segment of the community.
Worldserver Name:
Project 1999 - Classic Legit PVE Progression
Server Version:
0.8.0
Server Status:
UP
Players Online:
508
Average Players:
412
Max Players:
776
I hope so too bud I really do. I love WH universe and WAR was OK for a while but really left a bad taste.
40k MMO could be amazing if done right.
Oh I agree there as well. Problem is, pretty much every skilled smart enough developer out there is more concerend right now with getting a paycheck to keep their houses and feed their families than they are about revolutionizing the MMO industry.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
I can't blame em though, these are hard times for many people.
Usually it's the ones with the most talent and natural "flare" the programmers and artists and QA testers etc. that are first on the chopping block when the budget crunches come.
To each his own. I'm sorry you can't seem to find what you want in MMOs today, but not all MMOs should be the way you say either.
More diversified classes? Sure, sign me up for that. As long as each and every one of them is viable in PvE.
PvP - Don't care for it in the slightest. This goes for RvR or any kind of battlegrounds you can think of. I have always and will continue to ignore every "duel?" that's offered me. If pvp is not in an MMO I'm playing, I'll never miss it. And if it is, keep it the hell away from interfering with my PvE experience in every way; no class changes, no ganking, no killing NPCs I need, etc.
Story? I love story. Story is the number 1 reason I'll be playing Bioware's new game.
Harsh penalties? Yawn. When I die in an single player game, I reload at the last save, as fully intact as I was when I saved. I like that. I'd like to have the same feature in an MMO, but a minor to non-existant penalty is as close as I can hope for. I see harsh penalties as nothing more than a timesink.
Is my opinion more right than yours? No, it's just right for me. The only thing that's "wrong" with your post is saying that MMO's suck if they don't meet your definition. Good luck in your search.
Be careful, you'll probably be called a "noob" or a "carebear" or an "idiot" and be told to go back to WoW and stick to console games and then something about single player chat rooms etc. etc. etc.
Dissenting opinion is not tolerated!
100% agreed. In Guild Wars, death penalties eventually make quests unconquerable. My play hours are weird, so I'm commonly stuck running heroes and henchies nowadays, and once you're up to 40-60% DP, forget it. Back to the outpost to start over. Complete timesink.
I really don't think that this is true.
Not when one actually casts ones mind back to what the old-school players preferences were. There's a rose-tinted tendancy to lump all "old school" players into one happy little family that is at odds with the "post-WoW players". It's not true at all.
If you were to make an "old school" game; what type of one would you make?
An EQ style group PVE grind/camp/raid game?
An UO style (pre-trammel) FFA-PvP sandbox with full loot?
A DAOC style 3-faction RvR focused game?
An SWG style (pre-CU) PVE sandbox focused on crafting and non-combat skills?
The "my game is better than your game" debate raged back then just as much as it does now, and developers simply won't be able to cater to every "old school" player at once. Too many conflicting playstyles.
Then what would you do; spend untold millions making AAA versions of all 4 games?
There's just not enough financial incentive in it for the moneymen. Sad, but true.
Again you missed the point, the OP is not saying MMOs suck, the OP is saying the MMOs suck for him/her and his/her type of gamer. Is that really that hard to understand?
Listen, there are gamers out there that hate the way the current state of the MMO genre is and we expect that we are the minority, we accept that casauls and instant gradification have taken over the market and are now the driving force behind the changes. We accept that we are not longer catered to but what we do not accept and will never accept is being ignored as a group and made to change what we want IN OUR GAMES.
IMO
Sooner or Later
All of the above would be fine, thank you and come again.
A group style sandbox PvE game with an indepth crafting system and RvR PvP system which could allow non PvPs to avoid PvP. One server with a full loot rule set. Boom Done, thank you. (Think EvE on the Ground)
Not that hard really if you think about it. EvEs depths in a Fantasy setting. It would be a good niche game with a good population.
Sooner or Later
Mmmmmmm, EVE on the ground. Build it, and they will come.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
And there are companies trying to make games for that crowd; the problem time and time again boils down to production quality, rampant hacks, missing/bugged content, etc.. etc.. The list just goes on.
I too feel the pain.. I'd LOVE a sandbox game with the prouction quality seen in some good theme park games. I'd eat it up so much I'd probably lose my job playing it because I forgot to go into the office for a week..
But the reality is, it simply isn't going to happen anytime soon.. I'd love to see that statement proven wrong though. Any big dev is more than welcome to step up to the plate and drop $100 million to make a liar out of me. Blizzard?? BioWare?? Anyone... Hell.. Microsoft?? Somebody.. ANYBODY... hello... ello... llo... lo... o.....
/sniffle
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
In Anarchy Online you used to lose your xp if you died. Later, they made it less harsh. Your lost xp went in a pool and you gained it back gradually. Pretty neat. But if someone comes along and smacks a mob you're fighting and kills it, they take your stuff and walk away, scott free. You can't hit them. What the hell is with that BS? But to give credit where credit is due, Anarchy Online was relatively quest free (not grind free, mind you, but quest free). The mobs are also none too bright and very predictable.
WoW is full of kids that you want to hit in real life, talking racist garbage in trade chat, and yes, on the pvp servers, running around killing questers with their level 80 deathknights. Boring and annoying. Plus, too many quests. But they got the dungeon finder idea spot on, it's a good system, and you can solo pretty easily. Much smarter AI than Anarchy Online boasts, too.
Eve Online. Hm. I love sci-fi, and I don't have to quest (or run missions if I don't want to, ever). But...it could be more immersive. The reason I would never want to be a mission runner in Eve is, staring at a bunch of blinky red crosses all day gets boring. Skilling up while I sleep, okay, that's nice, but I'm hard pressed to figure out why I should even log in for a month or so, seeing as everyone who has been playing for years will just stomp me the minute I try any pvp activity, and what else is there to do? Play .01 wars in stations? Mine? Something is missing.
Thanks for mentioning Dark Age of Camelot, guess what, it's still around! I'm downloading it for the free 14 day trial, just for giggles and why not?
And so I ask you, why don't you just go back to playing these old games that are so much better than WoW and its clones? Vote with your wallets, people. If the old games are really better than the new ones, stop playing the new ones and go back to any old ones that are still around. I promise you, that will get game designer's attention in a way that no forum post on the topic ever will.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I think they are, and it will probably be released under the name World of Darkness.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Like someone wrote in his, her blog a real cataclysm. The last 5 years been horrible for a MMORPG player. Vanguard - our savior - got sabotaged by Sony. At this point its really time for a cataclysm flushing away all the big greedy studios releasing one "wowtype" and other negatives we are cursed with since 2005.
In a more specific manner:
remove the braindead quest-driven gameplay
remove auto-maps
remove minimaps
let the so called "publishers" know that 500k is an impressive success
getting rid of limited character-customization
return of deep and impressive gameplay
making sure you have to eat, drink while resting in order to regain health, mana if you aren't a healer
having to read the spellbook to load your spells
bring back the 72men raids
return of risk vs reward: more challenge and risk -> better reward
no effort no reward, no gain remove instances remove officially forums most are just filled with spoiled whinners so useless brinb back xp lost in combination with corpse runs remove: bind of equip/pickup remove fast paced combat be honest with your audience and stick with them! bring back intense crafting rewared group players instead of egomaniac soloers the more classes the better: tank, healer, dd, supporter, scout, pet classes (hybrid) bring back life events remove autostats: I want to decide where I'M putting my points
[quote]
[i]Ghost12 wrote[/i]
And WAR...the successor to DAOC, was a complete and utter joke. Mythic's handling of WAR was and still is shameful. I spent 8 weeks, 8 excruciating weeks in that game before quitting out of utter boredom. What a terrible disappointment to the company that created DAOC.
Even Bioware. Even you. All they can offer me is story. Ho ho ho! You Bioware, you have the same classes, the same 4 to 5 classes with two sides - let me guess, youre going to offer me some BG's on Correllia and Naboo, man, that sounds fun! Dying only to be respawned good as new 15 seconds later – man that sounds exciting. The never ending Jedi – Sith war, man, that sounds fun. I should feel special being a Jedi – oh wait, everyone is gonna be running around with a lightsaber – guess not.
[/quote]
WAR is coming...I remember that slogan its such a shame how Mythic handled this IP and somehow managed to fuck up big time. Think it takes lots of skill to ruin a game with everything in please: $, worldwide famous IP and a working former skinset (Daoc). Way of wasting 80 - 100 million $.
Still can't believe Bioware is going that route. I mentioned it somewhere else, yaaay! story and fully voiced as an USP will not be enough to meet their owners unrealistically expectations. It will be very interesting what they are showing us at the E3 although I wouldn't count on anything innovative. BW you guys are having a budget of 100 million +, Star Wars IP and yet refuse to take the Baldurs Gate route instead focusing on a shooter called Mass Effect (yeah its not a RPG).
As for voting with my wallet I already did though can't go back to Everquest 1 because its not even a shallow of a former oustanding game its streamlined, dumbed down, RMT filled and ruined forever.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
It already exists -- it's called EQ1. Plays largely the same it did 8 years ago. Have at it.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
Sadly its dumbed down endlessly
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Far as I know, DAOC, EQ1, AC haven't shut down yet....servers are still up. Go play them. Easy solution rather than ranting.
_____________________________
Currently Playing: LOTRO; DDO
Played: AC2, AO, Auto Assault, CoX, DAoC, DDO, Earth&Beyond, EQ1, EQ2, EVE, Fallen Earth, Jumpgate, Roma Victor, Second Life, SWG, V:SoH, WoW, World War II Online.
Games I'm watching: Infinity: The Quest for Earth, Force of Arms.
Find the Truth: http://www.factcheck.org/
Thank you so much for making a fool of yourself. Why both coming into a thread like this with absolutely no knowledge of the subject? If we could go back to those games, we would.
I endorse the OP's rant. But I do think there are a few cool games in the works that might be fun and a bit different. World of Darkness and The Secret World, being two.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I played MMORPG's back then too(I even played on Darktide for two years!), and though they were fun for their time, they were limited in scope and game mechanics - UO was the exception but it was top down isometric and sadly it needed to upgrade to better graphics to stay competitive.
I did love the time I spent playing those old MMORPG's like UO, AC and DAoC, but even I can admit that they lacked a lot of things.
I still say there is room for an awesome sandbox game. One with more open character development, better game mechanics that are deeper and more challenging than what we see today...the problem is a lot of gamers just don't want to mess with things that require them to think or to use their imaginations(EvE and other sandbox players excluded).
I remember people bitching and moaning about the complexity of AC's skill system and how attributes worked. All one had to do to learn what DEX did was RTFM! Did they bother? No.
I am still a proponent of skill based games, but with that I would love to see actual skill based games and not point and click games. I love how TaleWorlds character progression works and how it plays into the way your character performs. Why more MMORPG's do not use this style is beyond me.
Anyway, nice post.
Let see, the title of the thread is "Five years later, and MMO's are still a joke. What a disgrace" .. it does not say .. ."MMOs are still a joke for me".
It sounds like the OP is saying MMOs suck. Isn't it so hard to understand that he is left behind by the market and ranting? Which probably will result into nothing but more bitterness and ranting on internet forums.
I agree with some of the original posters points, but actually I do think TOR will be fun.
It might not be, but what I've seen so far looks like a lot of ef you en.
I want to get in groups and do missions with multiplayer dialog. I'm seriously looking forward to trying this, and I'm going to be quite disappointed if it turns out to be a piece of crap.
I certainly don't want to be "special" in an MMORPG. I want to play a fun character, not be "special". What's wrong with everyone having a a light saber? IN the Old Republic there were a lot of Jedi and Sith.
I got no problem with it.
I dont' know why you think it's a fool comment. I can go to the lineage 1 forum in my small country Taiwan of 2million people and see 2000 post counts a day. And as far as I know lineage 1 have been out for 12 years.
I dont' deny I'm trying to make a somewhat sarcastic comment. But you guys don't really see the problem. It's the life span of the MMO.
All you guys wants is for developer to keep making "new" and fun games for you. But you forget how fast you guys desert your current game to move to the next game.
Games like Wow, Lineage, Eve, FFonline, Lotro is a success. Because after all this year, it isn't affect much by other competition.
The only thing the OP see is AC and DAOC is fun. What he don't see is how fast he quit those games for other games.
I stayed with Dark Age of Camelot for 5 years. I've tried multiple times to go back, but it isn't the same game at all. I can't go back to DAoC, just like people can't go back to pre NGE SWG, or pre Trammel Ultima Online. The games NO LONGER EXIST. That's why its a fool comment. The games in their current state are unsupported/changed from what they once were. That's why people left DAoC, because it stopped being the same game that 250 thousand people were subscribed to. Once it totally changed focus into a PvE grinding game, everyone left. We can't go back. How is this hard to understand?