Geez Justin, no wonder the f2p movement has issues, it employess people like you who don't have one iota of a clue what issues players have with f2p. Take this quote:
"I can’t think of a single F2P MMO (although I’m sure there are some) that allows players to buy awesome gear with real money. And I can think of dozens that don’t. These elusive Über items are exactly that – extremely elusive. Elusive to the point of virtually not existing.
Let that sink in for a while.
F2P games hardly ever sell items that directly increase player power."
You can't think of any f2p games that do that? How about every major one except DDO, tale Runes of Magic for example, you have to buy items from the item shop for decent end game equipment, you can't compete otherwise! They all seem to sell items that increase player power, it is a rare game that doesn't. Again DDO is the exception here rather than the rule.
Next time you decide to write an article on a subject you obviously don't know much about, think twice.
Your example is not true. The Runes of Magic cash shop doesn't sell Uber gear (weapons or armor). in RoM, you can upgrade your gear using jewels, and other methods. Here is an except from the Comprehensive Guide to Upgrading Equipment form the game's offical US forums:
B. Method:
i. Vendor Jewels: Jewels bought from refinement vendors can be used to refine your equipment to +6, theoretically, but due to the high chance of failure and downgrade, they will typically only be used to reach +2. On average, equipment can be refined to +1 by using ~10 vendor jewels and refined to +2 by using ~30 vendor jewels.
ii. Item Shop Diamond Jewels: Jewels bought with Diamonds via the Item Shop have a higher probability of success, and less chance to downgrade upon failure. Typically, an item can be brought from +2 to +5 with ~15 jewels.
iii. Item Shop Ruby Jewels: Jewels bought with Rubies via the Item Shop grant a 100% chance of upgrade.
NOTE: Your success rate may vary; these are simply what the rates have been in my experience. It is unknown whether anything can be done to increase your probability of success.
In addition to the "better" cash-shop jewels (types ii and iii above), there are also other jewels available to buy in-game from NPC vendors using ingame currency (type i above), albeit they have a high failure rate.
What RoM sells are "better" jewels that "reduce the chance of bad things happening" (i.e upgrade failure), which is an example of a type of cash-store item that I explicitly stated in my article.
So, to summarize, Runes of Magic does NOT sell uber gear. And upgrading gear can be accomplished without visiting the cash shop.
So, I still stand by my statement. and the premise of the article.
Justin, seriously, play the game for a month or two and you'll see what we're saying here. The cash shop jewels are the only way to seriously over charge your in game gear, the in game stuff fails far too often to get to level 8+ and some players have spent 8K on such charge ups and it has turned them into walking gods in the game.
Toss in the fact you pay rent for extra inventory space on your character and in your vault, you can't really buy any decent furniture except through the cash shop, and probably a host of other goodies since I left the game, and you'll see ROM's cash shop has to be one of the worst examples you could have chosen if trying to alay peoples suspicions.
I played RoM for a year and Justin is absolutely correct.
YOU might want to play it for "a month or two" before you start regurgitating that anti-FTP verbal diarrhea. Your post sounds like you yanked sentences right out of other RoM criticism posts. I highly doubt you have ever played the game. Seriously, how many posts did you have to read to patch together THAT response?
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -Winston Churchill
I hate saying things like "I'll never play a F2P" or "I'll never play P2P again!" Because I know it's not true.
Seriously while I don't like the feeling of having to play since I'm paying for it. I also tend to not have any connection to games where I don't have to pay regularly. It's like "why bother it cost me nothing."
Do I care if others get a "leg up" by buying stuff. No. Why? Because people always have advantages and disadvantages, and if you can get some by paying for them go for it. I'm not going to begrudge someone for paying more for a Rever Titan when all I have is my Hive Tyrant. Seriously we've had "Pay to Win" systems throughout entertainment and sorry to say it guys life ain't fair.
So basically I care less. You make a game I want to play I'll pay or not depending on your model. Would I like to see more DDO and LotR style games? Yeah. Do I care if I don't? Nope.
Current Game: Asssasins Creed 2(PS3, Gamer Tag: Happy_Hubby) Current MMO: World of Warcraft and World of Tanks Former Subscribed MMO: Star Trek Online, Aion, WoW, Guild Wars, Eve Online, DAoC, City of Heroes, Shattered Galaxy, 10six. Tried: Too many to list
You gotta be wondering if some of these pro pay to win guys are payed for for their virtual bullshit called viral markeeting? Otherwise I really can't believe this.
I know a lot of people that rather quit the genre before havigng to deal with pay to win games. Personally I'm having a hard time taking people who are spending real money and virtual goods such as potions seriously and I for one know I don't want to play with them, thats why I chose P2P. There are just too many community and mindset differences.
Well first off the phrase "pay to win" has implications that apply to both time and money. People in P2P games "pay to win" with their time. In some F2P games people "pay to win" with time and money. But thats only some F2P games. But I seriously doubt that there is any conspiracy involved here. I've always stated that F2P is simply a different business model. Yes, it can and is abused by some companies. But thats true of just about any market sector.
As for those who quit, well I hope they find another hobby that they enjoy. When all is said and done, that is what this is all about after all. But I doubt that many will.
I don't like F2P + Cash Shop games at all.. they always feel dirty, like they're trying to nickel and dime me to death.
They attract a horde of people who I don't want in my game, gold spammers included.
They seem unfair... like 'real life" the person with the most gold wins. - Takes the challenge and the fun away from being a skilled player when daddy can buy you the best.
I'd rather pay a higher monthly sub price ($20 - 30) and have everything included (cosmetic items too) in the game i'm paying for. Let me work for additional fluff with in game currency I've earned by playing, not by swiping my credit card.
I'm hoping this is not a gaming trend we adopt here in the West.
i welcome all F2p games and cash shops if they have a system like perfect world. Then having a cash shop is great!. why? well when u can buy all item mall items ingame using game money via other players or buy the gold (item mall money) from ah from others players and get what you need. id say this is 100% fair to all players and gives every1 a even playing ground to get all the goodies they want and those who dont spend still get the same as those who do spend.
I played Perfect World for a year. I got all the way to level 94. The Auction house for trading in game currency for gold was very good and balanced. But then they released the anniversary packs (lottery tickets). They contained the Uber Gear he was talking about and inflated the game with too much in game currency. If I went on my old server now I would find one faction ruling all of the PvP and Territory maps I'm sure. Actually I heard that PvP is dead in Perfect World because all the rich uber geared all go to one faction and no one stands a chance.
Ftp has a lot of potential. Just watch out for those damn lottery tickets in the cash shops. The lottery tickets mark the end for all ftp mmos. I really did enjoy Perfect World until they released the Anniversary pack. Another thing is that they said it would only stay in the cash shop for that month (August 2009) and to this day it is still in there but they change its name. I am seeing a change in most ftp mmos though. A change for the better. Ftp will probably grow as large as p2p but I think they will both stay for the long run. They are all mmos and they all have potential.
I played many F2P games, never liked it and thought I was the target of jobbery. Never had a problem with money, in the last F2P game I played, was beta player so I stayed a while, I tried to resist buying things in item mall, but after some months I could not resist, I found myself getting behinde at the other players that were bought items and they had distinct advantage. I think I spent about $40 every month to have a strong char, thus arrived at the 2th place of the strongest in my class. And did not have much time to play, only injections of money that gave me an advantage over others. When the other players knew that I usually bought items asked me to give them things, I have offered many things to some, they played in my guild and considered them my friends. But when everything started to become anoying, I said enufe and I moved to subscription games without item mall. It was like being reborn again and loved the change despite being accustomed to buying shortcuts in the F2P games. Not to mention the money I save on subscription games, $14 is not the same for $40. For all this I always pick subscription only, I think F2P a lie, a word to cover up another business.
There is one extremely simple reason why I avoid "F2P" like a plague, because the revenue model is inherently flawed with regards to making an enjoyable game.
Think about it. For a F2P game to make money, the game development needs to be focused around creating a game that promotes players to pay them. How do they do this? By punishing those who do not, and rewarding those who do. Now you can argue the semantics of "oh that item isn't really necessary", or "that item doesn't really give too much of an advantage", but the fact remains that the game's development is centric to the idea that their main goal is to get you to buy from their item mall.
(Pure) Subscription MMOs are the opposite side of the spectrum. The focus in design is to make the game fun and enjopyable for players as long as possible. Why? Because the longer the players are happy and interested, the longer they play, and the more they pay. This revenue model is much more conducive to spawning games that are, well, good and fun.
And that is why I outright avoid anything that is "F2P".
For me... P2P has always been a better overall experience. Every time they have. Its all about the game and the gameplay.
F2P can not focus on fun to be successful. I am a type 1 player and find F2P to generally be far more simplistic, limited, time-consuming and unbalanced.
The Uber items may not exist in the way thats being described. But many F2P games offer items that provide clear and distinct advantages that they are basically uber. And so far nearly all of the F2P game forums that I read about talk about how X cash shop item is required to complete Y.
I'd rather pay a sub and progress through a game that wants me to enjoy the game rather than play a game freely that will urge me to buy items.
I am sick of all this pro F2P propaganda. I will never play a "pay to win" game. End of story.
All this recent pro F2P promoted on this site is really causing me to find a new MMO site.
Enough pushing the F2P market scam.
Its more a matter of following trends. The trend currently is towards F2P. If that changes(it doesn't look like it at this point) I'm certain that MMORPG's coverage will as well. You are mistaking the pointing finger for the moon.
I'm also involved with Massively, as well as Ten Ton Hammer. I recommend both sites, but both have also been reporting on more F2P news.
There's a rather obvious difference between reporting the news and weighing in on the news (editorializing). MMORPG.com has for quite some time now forgone the former and focused on the latter (clearly for profit/ad revenue reasons).
So? Are you under the impression that game sites are only about news? Of course they are going to focus on trends, and also act as a forum for game companies to display their wares. The idea that they must be some disinterested party, above and beyond, such crass concepts as profit is absurd.
MMORPG has given some games poor reviews. It has given others average and good reviews. From what I've seen they do try to be fair. They are also in this BUSINESS to make money. From all indications that I've seen, they do quite a good job of covering games, technology and the personalities that create them.
Thanks well MMORPG aren't my main hobby first its girlfriend and gym then MMORPG's. At the moment I don't think we - the F2P haters - have to quit there are still enough games without cash shops avaiable (since yesterday Mortal Online) and with Guild Wars 2 another one will come. Though I'm 100% certain ToR will have an IS because of the publisher + LA.
I would really really wish, MMORPG.com would split up the sections into F2P and P2P like
Game Forums:
- Pay to Play:
-- A - Z
Free to Play:
-- A - Z
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Geez Justin, no wonder the f2p movement has issues, it employess people like you who don't have one iota of a clue what issues players have with f2p. Take this quote:
"I can’t think of a single F2P MMO (although I’m sure there are some) that allows players to buy awesome gear with real money. And I can think of dozens that don’t. These elusive Über items are exactly that – extremely elusive. Elusive to the point of virtually not existing.
Let that sink in for a while.
F2P games hardly ever sell items that directly increase player power."
You can't think of any f2p games that do that? How about every major one except DDO, tale Runes of Magic for example, you have to buy items from the item shop for decent end game equipment, you can't compete otherwise! They all seem to sell items that increase player power, it is a rare game that doesn't. Again DDO is the exception here rather than the rule.
Next time you decide to write an article on a subject you obviously don't know much about, think twice.
Your example is not true. The Runes of Magic cash shop doesn't sell Uber gear (weapons or armor). in RoM, you can upgrade your gear using jewels, and other methods. Here is an except from the Comprehensive Guide to Upgrading Equipment form the game's offical US forums:
B. Method:
i. Vendor Jewels: Jewels bought from refinement vendors can be used to refine your equipment to +6, theoretically, but due to the high chance of failure and downgrade, they will typically only be used to reach +2. On average, equipment can be refined to +1 by using ~10 vendor jewels and refined to +2 by using ~30 vendor jewels.
ii. Item Shop Diamond Jewels: Jewels bought with Diamonds via the Item Shop have a higher probability of success, and less chance to downgrade upon failure. Typically, an item can be brought from +2 to +5 with ~15 jewels.
iii. Item Shop Ruby Jewels: Jewels bought with Rubies via the Item Shop grant a 100% chance of upgrade.
NOTE: Your success rate may vary; these are simply what the rates have been in my experience. It is unknown whether anything can be done to increase your probability of success.
In addition to the "better" cash-shop jewels (types ii and iii above), there are also other jewels available to buy in-game from NPC vendors using ingame currency (type i above), albeit they have a high failure rate.
What RoM sells are "better" jewels that "reduce the chance of bad things happening" (i.e upgrade failure), which is an example of a type of cash-store item that I explicitly stated in my article.
So, to summarize, Runes of Magic does NOT sell uber gear. And upgrading gear can be accomplished without visiting the cash shop.
So, I still stand by my statement. and the premise of the article.
Justin, seriously, play the game for a month or two and you'll see what we're saying here. The cash shop jewels are the only way to seriously over charge your in game gear, the in game stuff fails far too often to get to level 8+ and some players have spent 8K on such charge ups and it has turned them into walking gods in the game.
Toss in the fact you pay rent for extra inventory space on your character and in your vault, you can't really buy any decent furniture except through the cash shop, and probably a host of other goodies since I left the game, and you'll see ROM's cash shop has to be one of the worst examples you could have chosen if trying to alay peoples suspicions.
I played RoM for a year and Justin is absolutely correct.
YOU might want to play it for "a month or two" before you start regurgitating that anti-FTP verbal diarrhea. Your post sounds like you yanked sentences right out of other RoM criticism posts. I highly doubt you have ever played the game. Seriously, how many posts did you have to read to patch together THAT response?
ER, I played it for 3 months actually, spent about 100 bucks in diamonds, spent it on mounts, bag space, inventory space, gear upgrades etc.
Kind of wondering what game you played or if you were on the PVP server like I was. I'm thinking the answer to that is no.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't think F2P games are "evil" or that f2p gamers aren't real gamers....however I VERY STRONGLY personaly dislike the model.
When I play a game I want to relax and forget about the real world and about real world issues like spending real cash. I don't want to have to be constantly reminded of it. As long as I know I can afford the fixed entry fee for the game....then I REALLY LIKE the fact that I can enjoy it as little or as much as I like with zero impact on my wallet ...and no need to even think about any of those issues.
Now some people don't mind the pay as you go method....just like some people love gambling with real money.. that's thier idea of fun.....that's fine...but it's not mine.
F2P games feel like going to see a movie and having to put a coin in the arm rest to see each scene. That's no fun for me.
I'm the type of guy that likes the "all-inclusive" vacation deal.... you pay one fee up front....then you relax and don't need to worry about what you can afford to do when your there.
What really chaps me is when I game I like and have played for years (since closed beta) decides to up and change it's model on me in mid-stream. It triple chaps me when I know that it's used the resources that it's earned from my subscription fees to fund this change on me....on the sly....when it SHOULD have been using those same resources to put more content in the game and provide better service....something that many of us paying customers have been complaining about for some time now. I'm sorry...but that's pissing on your loyal customers.
It also irritates me to no end to see this F2P, cash shop model hyped to the sky....and brain dead execs falling all over themselves to jump on the bandwagon. It's the DOT com bubble thing all over again. Certainly F2P models, micro-transactions and alternative revenue streams CAN be successfull under the right circumstances. However that doesn't mean that they WILL be successfull in your game....or that simply putting them in your game WILL make it a success.
That's the REAL problem with the MMO market today....and frankly business in general. Too many people who are in decision making positions don't actualy understand the dynamics of the product THEY are selling or the particular market they are selling to. They fall all over themselves trying to find the "magic recipie for success" and jump at any flashy bit of hype they hear....or any success that anyone else has without really understanding why it worked in THAT particular circumstance.....and what thier own circumstances happen to be.
Ultimately, there are no shortcuts....You make a good product that provides real value to people and you WILL be successfull... whats more you'll STAY successfull in the long haul. If you are selling games then you have to understand what makes games FUN for people. No business degree, no marketing plan, no revenue model and no hyped bit of industry news will do that for you. That's the REAL problem with the game market today.... Too few people sitting in the corner offices of the companies that produce these games have the first clue about what actualy makes games FUN to play.
Geez Justin, no wonder the f2p movement has issues, it employess people like you who don't have one iota of a clue what issues players have with f2p. Take this quote:
"I can’t think of a single F2P MMO (although I’m sure there are some) that allows players to buy awesome gear with real money. And I can think of dozens that don’t. These elusive Über items are exactly that – extremely elusive. Elusive to the point of virtually not existing.
Let that sink in for a while.
F2P games hardly ever sell items that directly increase player power."
You can't think of any f2p games that do that? How about every major one except DDO, tale Runes of Magic for example, you have to buy items from the item shop for decent end game equipment, you can't compete otherwise! They all seem to sell items that increase player power, it is a rare game that doesn't. Again DDO is the exception here rather than the rule.
Next time you decide to write an article on a subject you obviously don't know much about, think twice.
Your example is not true. The Runes of Magic cash shop doesn't sell Uber gear (weapons or armor). in RoM, you can upgrade your gear using jewels, and other methods. Here is an except from the Comprehensive Guide to Upgrading Equipment form the game's offical US forums:
B. Method:
i. Vendor Jewels: Jewels bought from refinement vendors can be used to refine your equipment to +6, theoretically, but due to the high chance of failure and downgrade, they will typically only be used to reach +2. On average, equipment can be refined to +1 by using ~10 vendor jewels and refined to +2 by using ~30 vendor jewels.
ii. Item Shop Diamond Jewels: Jewels bought with Diamonds via the Item Shop have a higher probability of success, and less chance to downgrade upon failure. Typically, an item can be brought from +2 to +5 with ~15 jewels.
iii. Item Shop Ruby Jewels: Jewels bought with Rubies via the Item Shop grant a 100% chance of upgrade.
NOTE: Your success rate may vary; these are simply what the rates have been in my experience. It is unknown whether anything can be done to increase your probability of success.
In addition to the "better" cash-shop jewels (types ii and iii above), there are also other jewels available to buy in-game from NPC vendors using ingame currency (type i above), albeit they have a high failure rate.
What RoM sells are "better" jewels that "reduce the chance of bad things happening" (i.e upgrade failure), which is an example of a type of cash-store item that I explicitly stated in my article.
So, to summarize, Runes of Magic does NOT sell uber gear. And upgrading gear can be accomplished without visiting the cash shop.
So, I still stand by my statement. and the premise of the article.
Justin, seriously, play the game for a month or two and you'll see what we're saying here. The cash shop jewels are the only way to seriously over charge your in game gear, the in game stuff fails far too often to get to level 8+ and some players have spent 8K on such charge ups and it has turned them into walking gods in the game.
Toss in the fact you pay rent for extra inventory space on your character and in your vault, you can't really buy any decent furniture except through the cash shop, and probably a host of other goodies since I left the game, and you'll see ROM's cash shop has to be one of the worst examples you could have chosen if trying to alay peoples suspicions.
I played RoM for a year and Justin is absolutely correct.
YOU might want to play it for "a month or two" before you start regurgitating that anti-FTP verbal diarrhea. Your post sounds like you yanked sentences right out of other RoM criticism posts. I highly doubt you have ever played the game. Seriously, how many posts did you have to read to patch together THAT response?
ER, I played it for 3 months actually, spent about 100 bucks in diamonds, spent it on mounts, bag space, inventory space, gear upgrades etc.
Kind of wondering what game you played or if you were on the PVP server like I was. I'm thinking the answer to that is no.
Sorry, wrong again. I play on Grimdal.
But, yeah, those 3 months must have given you a wealth of experience.
As for the $100 you spent on diamonds? I have only one thing to say: sucker! ROTFLMAO!!!
In a year, I think I may have spent $10 on a few cosmetic items.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -Winston Churchill
There is one extremely simple reason why I avoid "F2P" like a plague, because the revenue model is inherently flawed with regards to making an enjoyable game.
Think about it. For a F2P game to make money, the game development needs to be focused around creating a game that promotes players to pay them. How do they do this? By punishing those who do not, and rewarding those who do. Now you can argue the semantics of "oh that item isn't really necessary", or "that item doesn't really give too much of an advantage", but the fact remains that the game's development is centric to the idea that their main goal is to get you to buy from their item mall.
(Pure) Subscription MMOs are the opposite side of the spectrum. The focus in design is to make the game fun and enjopyable for players as long as possible. Why? Because the longer the players are happy and interested, the longer they play, and the more they pay. This revenue model is much more conducive to spawning games that are, well, good and fun.
And that is why I outright avoid anything that is "F2P".
I'm sorry, but as much as this website and the industry in general wants me to enjoy FTP, I simply refuse.
Call me a dinosaur, but I want to pay my $15 a month, have access to everything I am willing to actually work for, and call it a day. Being nickled and dimed to death by a gready-ass publisher is not my idea of entertainment.
I may be forced to utilize this business model if I choose to continue to play LOTRO, but the milisecond an item that I NEED is only available in an item shop, I will never log in again.
For me the news Lotro is going F2P was a huge disappointment. I'm still playing but hugely let down by Turbine. MoM was a real expansion pack. One year later they released Mirkwood which was mislabeled an expansion pack (but was really more like a map). Now one year after that (with none of the old quarterly updates either) they are going to be releasing F2P, a bunch of cosmetic garbage and sounds like one lousy zone with probably no level increases. The game feels like it is dieing a slow death.
I dislike F2P (especially in Lotro's case) because if forces some of the development staff to work on sales items (i.e. fluff) to earn money. In the case of Lotro, Turbine probably have most of their development staff working on there new MMO (i.e. the "next best thing"). Now what minor resources they are going to give to Lotro will probably be items that long term main players (or the ones that made it the minor success it is) won't be as interested in.
I agree that P2P development focuses more on the game, real items and game mechanics. F2P is split between the game and cash store junk. To me F2P focuses more on the short term hop around player then long term population.
In the case of Lotro I think it's just plain sad to see something that good wither away. I feel bad for the existing long term players who are going to be stuck with that minor bite-sized release called mirkwood for another six months only to get another baby map released.
I'm sorry, but as much as this website and the industry in general wants me to enjoy FTP, I simply refuse.
Call me a dinosaur, but I want to pay my $15 a month, have access to everything I am willing to actually work for, and call it a day. Being nickled and dimed to death by a gready-ass publisher is not my idea of entertainment.
I may be forced to utilize this business model if I choose to continue to play LOTRO, but the milisecond an item that I NEED is only available in an item shop, I will never log in again.
Why be sorry? Its a matter of personal taste. If you don't like F2P games, by all means don't play them.
As for LOTRO, "need" is rather subjective. If you really object that much to F2P games, you might be better served to find another game that doesn't use that business model.
I personally do not care if a game is P2P, F2P or some hybrid, just so long as I enjoy it. This is taking on aspects of a religious war, with some people. Which is foolish, as these are games after all.
Vesa, no it didn't need to be said. From my experience over the years MMORPG has done a pretty good job of covering MMO's, and the related technology and personalities involved. They have never made any pretense of being a pure "news" site.
You are mistaking the pointing finger for the moon.
Of course they follow the various trends in the industry. Currently thats F2P. Of course, they are a show place for the various game companies. But that hasn't prevented them from giving some games low scores(if it was warranted). This IS a business after all. But from my experience they have done a good job of being fair.
Everyone has an agenda and their own bias. Thats as true of the real "news" sites(Drudge, CNN, Fox) as it is anywhere else. Its up to each individual to make their own determination about what they are presented.
F2P - "If you spend enough, we will make you a god!" - that's the motto of the actual asian grinders that we have experience with and assimilate f2p to. Thats what we dont like, the "God" players who have tons of time and tons of money (thousands to tens of thousands of dollars, whoever played a f2p close to the "cap" level knows i'm not exaggerating). The Type3 players in Justin's list. They may be very very rare but they end up dominating every "competition" designed in game (pve or pvp) and the game becomes designed around them, the primary interest being not to lose them. At any point of development of the game, these guys MUST have a major advantage (while pumping the money ofc) or they might change their home, that's the major idea of the f2p's that we are used to.
As soon as we understood that, most of us being educated intelligent people, we cannot approve with this model and we will not follow it. Fortunately, LOTRO is not like that, and hopefully it will never be, as it started on a p2p business model. That's what matters to me and i bet that it matters to others also, to be able to be competitive in the endgame without having to sell our cars.
The sad part is that there are some really really nice ideas in some of today's f2p's (see Atlantica, or the PWI games) which will go to the trash bin because of the economic concept on which these games are based.
P.S. I dont understand the analogies to the real life. If someone's an abused employee in RL and he is poor, should he have the same status in game just because he cannot afford the latest CS goodies? Lots of people play games just because they offer something fundamentally different from the RL...
I dont know why you even bothered to try and explain it to them Justin.They think F2P player saren't real gamers/
:rolls eyes:
People who buy items using real life cash are cheaters. Just like if you bought gold, or bought a power leveling system. There is no difference. Earn your items/levels in game by gaming. Not purchasing rewards.
I will relax and breathe when f2p proponents admits its cheating.
I dont know why you even bothered to try and explain it to them Justin.They think F2P player saren't real gamers/
:rolls eyes:
People who buy items using real life cash are cheaters. Just like if you bought gold, or bought a power leveling system. There is no difference. Earn your items/levels in game by gaming. Not purchasing rewards.
I will relax and breathe when f2p proponents admits its cheating.
NO. You do not get to make the definitions for other peoples games. If the Dev's of a game have established certain dynamics within their games, then by definition that is NOT cheating within their game. End of story. The most you can legitimately say is that you don't approve and will not take part.
F2P is simply a different business model. Bottom line, if you don't like F2P, don't play them. Its really that simple.
I dont know why you even bothered to try and explain it to them Justin.They think F2P player saren't real gamers/ :rolls eyes:
People who buy items using real life cash are cheaters. Just like if you bought gold, or bought a power leveling system. There is no difference. Earn your items/levels in game by gaming. Not purchasing rewards. I will relax and breathe when f2p proponents admits its cheating.
lol, Nerd-rage is the funniest rage.
If game designers allow it in the game it's not cheating. It may or may not be horrid game design, but "cheating" just like "exploiting" is way overused. If you install Linmate in Lineage you're cheating. If you install <WoW-Bot-HackProg> you're cheating. If you find an actual game exploit and continually use it to your advantage you're cheating. Everything else is just the game. Love it or leave it.
You call his response Nerd Rage? Perhaps, if so I am guilty as well.
But if that's Nerd Rage, then what do you call some People demanding more MMOs go free to play and then attacking those of us that just want the MMO genre to slow down and breathe itself... and remain as MMOs have been... a subscription funded hobby?
I call it a form Rage as well, maybe not Nerd Rage but more selfish than what we subscription supporters want. We want MMOs to remain as they are (subscription funded with no cash shop features), while others seek to change the Hobby for no other reason than they just don't want to pay a subscription and/or they want to throw their real life money at a MMO to gain an advantage others do not have.
The change of MMOs from P2P to F2P is being fueled not by the Developers and Publishers, but by Players too cheap to pay for their hobby, and by Players wanting to buy their way into success in a MMO. There is enough of both in the real life... MMOs are just games yes, but they are in the virtual and is why many Players enjoy them... as an escape from the foolishness and selfish greedy ways of the real world. In a MMO traditionally a Player earned, crafted, or was gifted by other Players what they acquired and now the new Players (and some old ones as well) want to change this to replicate the real life rat race? I call that selfish and I call it lazy.
If this offends some Players so be it. I am increasingly offended that you are entering the MMO hobby and seeking to change it, even though many of us see no need for the change. If you want a different kind of Online game then go enjoy another sector of Online Entertainment.
And as for the Developers and Publishers seeking to attract a new and different group of people to play your games, thanks a lot for forgetting the Players that in fact helped you build this genre, and thanks for dumping us in the trash just because you have become convinced that you have no choice but make your games free to play. You Developers and Publishers want us MMO Gamers to hype your games, help you bug test them, and be loyal customers, but changing the hobby to seek another group of customers is the wrong way to gain my loyalty, I assure you. Sure I have enjoyed you build the genre in my own tiny way, but that does not entitle you to my undying and steadfast loyalty as a customer when you stray from you first love so to speak.
If you want to change MMOs, and you want a different group of customers, then at least have the courtesy to call the Online Games you market something other than a MMO. Be respectful and call it something else... for it is something else.
Some say MMOs must change... like change is something to be embraced and worshipped... I say there is no justifiable reason for the radical changes taking place in the MMO genre other than laziness and greed. Both have no place in MMO Gaming, even IF "it is only a game".
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
Comments
I played RoM for a year and Justin is absolutely correct.
YOU might want to play it for "a month or two" before you start regurgitating that anti-FTP verbal diarrhea. Your post sounds like you yanked sentences right out of other RoM criticism posts. I highly doubt you have ever played the game. Seriously, how many posts did you have to read to patch together THAT response?
*Shrugs*
I hate saying things like "I'll never play a F2P" or "I'll never play P2P again!" Because I know it's not true.
Seriously while I don't like the feeling of having to play since I'm paying for it. I also tend to not have any connection to games where I don't have to pay regularly. It's like "why bother it cost me nothing."
Do I care if others get a "leg up" by buying stuff. No. Why? Because people always have advantages and disadvantages, and if you can get some by paying for them go for it. I'm not going to begrudge someone for paying more for a Rever Titan when all I have is my Hive Tyrant. Seriously we've had "Pay to Win" systems throughout entertainment and sorry to say it guys life ain't fair.
So basically I care less. You make a game I want to play I'll pay or not depending on your model. Would I like to see more DDO and LotR style games? Yeah. Do I care if I don't? Nope.
Current Game: Asssasins Creed 2(PS3, Gamer Tag: Happy_Hubby)
Current MMO: World of Warcraft and World of Tanks
Former Subscribed MMO: Star Trek Online, Aion, WoW, Guild Wars, Eve Online, DAoC, City of Heroes, Shattered Galaxy, 10six.
Tried: Too many to list
Well first off the phrase "pay to win" has implications that apply to both time and money. People in P2P games "pay to win" with their time. In some F2P games people "pay to win" with time and money. But thats only some F2P games. But I seriously doubt that there is any conspiracy involved here. I've always stated that F2P is simply a different business model. Yes, it can and is abused by some companies. But thats true of just about any market sector.
As for those who quit, well I hope they find another hobby that they enjoy. When all is said and done, that is what this is all about after all. But I doubt that many will.
I don't like F2P + Cash Shop games at all.. they always feel dirty, like they're trying to nickel and dime me to death.
They attract a horde of people who I don't want in my game, gold spammers included.
They seem unfair... like 'real life" the person with the most gold wins. - Takes the challenge and the fun away from being a skilled player when daddy can buy you the best.
I'd rather pay a higher monthly sub price ($20 - 30) and have everything included (cosmetic items too) in the game i'm paying for. Let me work for additional fluff with in game currency I've earned by playing, not by swiping my credit card.
I'm hoping this is not a gaming trend we adopt here in the West.
No bitchers.
I played Perfect World for a year. I got all the way to level 94. The Auction house for trading in game currency for gold was very good and balanced. But then they released the anniversary packs (lottery tickets). They contained the Uber Gear he was talking about and inflated the game with too much in game currency. If I went on my old server now I would find one faction ruling all of the PvP and Territory maps I'm sure. Actually I heard that PvP is dead in Perfect World because all the rich uber geared all go to one faction and no one stands a chance.
Ftp has a lot of potential. Just watch out for those damn lottery tickets in the cash shops. The lottery tickets mark the end for all ftp mmos. I really did enjoy Perfect World until they released the Anniversary pack. Another thing is that they said it would only stay in the cash shop for that month (August 2009) and to this day it is still in there but they change its name. I am seeing a change in most ftp mmos though. A change for the better. Ftp will probably grow as large as p2p but I think they will both stay for the long run. They are all mmos and they all have potential.
I played many F2P games, never liked it and thought I was the target of jobbery. Never had a problem with money, in the last F2P game I played, was beta player so I stayed a while, I tried to resist buying things in item mall, but after some months I could not resist, I found myself getting behinde at the other players that were bought items and they had distinct advantage. I think I spent about $40 every month to have a strong char, thus arrived at the 2th place of the strongest in my class. And did not have much time to play, only injections of money that gave me an advantage over others. When the other players knew that I usually bought items asked me to give them things, I have offered many things to some, they played in my guild and considered them my friends.
But when everything started to become anoying, I said enufe and I moved to subscription games without item mall.
It was like being reborn again and loved the change despite being accustomed to buying shortcuts in the F2P games.
Not to mention the money I save on subscription games, $14 is not the same for $40.
For all this I always pick subscription only, I think F2P a lie, a word to cover up another business.
There is one extremely simple reason why I avoid "F2P" like a plague, because the revenue model is inherently flawed with regards to making an enjoyable game.
Think about it. For a F2P game to make money, the game development needs to be focused around creating a game that promotes players to pay them. How do they do this? By punishing those who do not, and rewarding those who do. Now you can argue the semantics of "oh that item isn't really necessary", or "that item doesn't really give too much of an advantage", but the fact remains that the game's development is centric to the idea that their main goal is to get you to buy from their item mall.
(Pure) Subscription MMOs are the opposite side of the spectrum. The focus in design is to make the game fun and enjopyable for players as long as possible. Why? Because the longer the players are happy and interested, the longer they play, and the more they pay. This revenue model is much more conducive to spawning games that are, well, good and fun.
And that is why I outright avoid anything that is "F2P".
I've played many F2P MMOs and a few P2P.
For me... P2P has always been a better overall experience. Every time they have. Its all about the game and the gameplay.
F2P can not focus on fun to be successful. I am a type 1 player and find F2P to generally be far more simplistic, limited, time-consuming and unbalanced.
The Uber items may not exist in the way thats being described. But many F2P games offer items that provide clear and distinct advantages that they are basically uber. And so far nearly all of the F2P game forums that I read about talk about how X cash shop item is required to complete Y.
I'd rather pay a sub and progress through a game that wants me to enjoy the game rather than play a game freely that will urge me to buy items.
Thanks
well MMORPG aren't my main hobby first its girlfriend and gym then MMORPG's. At the moment I don't think we - the F2P haters - have to quit there are still enough games without cash shops avaiable (since yesterday Mortal Online) and with Guild Wars 2 another one will come. Though I'm 100% certain ToR will have an IS because of the publisher + LA.
I would really really wish, MMORPG.com would split up the sections into F2P and P2P like
Game Forums:
- Pay to Play:
-- A - Z
Free to Play:
-- A - Z
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
ER, I played it for 3 months actually, spent about 100 bucks in diamonds, spent it on mounts, bag space, inventory space, gear upgrades etc.
Kind of wondering what game you played or if you were on the PVP server like I was. I'm thinking the answer to that is no.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't think F2P games are "evil" or that f2p gamers aren't real gamers....however I VERY STRONGLY personaly dislike the model.
When I play a game I want to relax and forget about the real world and about real world issues like spending real cash. I don't want to have to be constantly reminded of it. As long as I know I can afford the fixed entry fee for the game....then I REALLY LIKE the fact that I can enjoy it as little or as much as I like with zero impact on my wallet ...and no need to even think about any of those issues.
Now some people don't mind the pay as you go method....just like some people love gambling with real money.. that's thier idea of fun.....that's fine...but it's not mine.
F2P games feel like going to see a movie and having to put a coin in the arm rest to see each scene. That's no fun for me.
I'm the type of guy that likes the "all-inclusive" vacation deal.... you pay one fee up front....then you relax and don't need to worry about what you can afford to do when your there.
What really chaps me is when I game I like and have played for years (since closed beta) decides to up and change it's model on me in mid-stream. It triple chaps me when I know that it's used the resources that it's earned from my subscription fees to fund this change on me....on the sly....when it SHOULD have been using those same resources to put more content in the game and provide better service....something that many of us paying customers have been complaining about for some time now. I'm sorry...but that's pissing on your loyal customers.
It also irritates me to no end to see this F2P, cash shop model hyped to the sky....and brain dead execs falling all over themselves to jump on the bandwagon. It's the DOT com bubble thing all over again. Certainly F2P models, micro-transactions and alternative revenue streams CAN be successfull under the right circumstances. However that doesn't mean that they WILL be successfull in your game....or that simply putting them in your game WILL make it a success.
That's the REAL problem with the MMO market today....and frankly business in general. Too many people who are in decision making positions don't actualy understand the dynamics of the product THEY are selling or the particular market they are selling to. They fall all over themselves trying to find the "magic recipie for success" and jump at any flashy bit of hype they hear....or any success that anyone else has without really understanding why it worked in THAT particular circumstance.....and what thier own circumstances happen to be.
Ultimately, there are no shortcuts....You make a good product that provides real value to people and you WILL be successfull... whats more you'll STAY successfull in the long haul. If you are selling games then you have to understand what makes games FUN for people. No business degree, no marketing plan, no revenue model and no hyped bit of industry news will do that for you. That's the REAL problem with the game market today.... Too few people sitting in the corner offices of the companies that produce these games have the first clue about what actualy makes games FUN to play.
Sorry, wrong again. I play on Grimdal.
But, yeah, those 3 months must have given you a wealth of experience.
As for the $100 you spent on diamonds? I have only one thing to say: sucker! ROTFLMAO!!!
In a year, I think I may have spent $10 on a few cosmetic items.
I'll go back and read everything but first, I
you, Justin, for the grok.
QFT.
I'm sorry, but as much as this website and the industry in general wants me to enjoy FTP, I simply refuse.
Call me a dinosaur, but I want to pay my $15 a month, have access to everything I am willing to actually work for, and call it a day. Being nickled and dimed to death by a gready-ass publisher is not my idea of entertainment.
I may be forced to utilize this business model if I choose to continue to play LOTRO, but the milisecond an item that I NEED is only available in an item shop, I will never log in again.
For me the news Lotro is going F2P was a huge disappointment. I'm still playing but hugely let down by Turbine. MoM was a real expansion pack. One year later they released Mirkwood which was mislabeled an expansion pack (but was really more like a map). Now one year after that (with none of the old quarterly updates either) they are going to be releasing F2P, a bunch of cosmetic garbage and sounds like one lousy zone with probably no level increases. The game feels like it is dieing a slow death.
I dislike F2P (especially in Lotro's case) because if forces some of the development staff to work on sales items (i.e. fluff) to earn money. In the case of Lotro, Turbine probably have most of their development staff working on there new MMO (i.e. the "next best thing"). Now what minor resources they are going to give to Lotro will probably be items that long term main players (or the ones that made it the minor success it is) won't be as interested in.
I agree that P2P development focuses more on the game, real items and game mechanics. F2P is split between the game and cash store junk. To me F2P focuses more on the short term hop around player then long term population.
In the case of Lotro I think it's just plain sad to see something that good wither away. I feel bad for the existing long term players who are going to be stuck with that minor bite-sized release called mirkwood for another six months only to get another baby map released.
Why be sorry? Its a matter of personal taste. If you don't like F2P games, by all means don't play them.
As for LOTRO, "need" is rather subjective. If you really object that much to F2P games, you might be better served to find another game that doesn't use that business model.
I personally do not care if a game is P2P, F2P or some hybrid, just so long as I enjoy it. This is taking on aspects of a religious war, with some people. Which is foolish, as these are games after all.
Vesa, no it didn't need to be said. From my experience over the years MMORPG has done a pretty good job of covering MMO's, and the related technology and personalities involved. They have never made any pretense of being a pure "news" site.
You are mistaking the pointing finger for the moon.
Of course they follow the various trends in the industry. Currently thats F2P. Of course, they are a show place for the various game companies. But that hasn't prevented them from giving some games low scores(if it was warranted). This IS a business after all. But from my experience they have done a good job of being fair.
Everyone has an agenda and their own bias. Thats as true of the real "news" sites(Drudge, CNN, Fox) as it is anywhere else. Its up to each individual to make their own determination about what they are presented.
F2P - "If you spend enough, we will make you a god!" - that's the motto of the actual asian grinders that we have experience with and assimilate f2p to. Thats what we dont like, the "God" players who have tons of time and tons of money (thousands to tens of thousands of dollars, whoever played a f2p close to the "cap" level knows i'm not exaggerating). The Type3 players in Justin's list. They may be very very rare but they end up dominating every "competition" designed in game (pve or pvp) and the game becomes designed around them, the primary interest being not to lose them. At any point of development of the game, these guys MUST have a major advantage (while pumping the money ofc) or they might change their home, that's the major idea of the f2p's that we are used to.
As soon as we understood that, most of us being educated intelligent people, we cannot approve with this model and we will not follow it. Fortunately, LOTRO is not like that, and hopefully it will never be, as it started on a p2p business model. That's what matters to me and i bet that it matters to others also, to be able to be competitive in the endgame without having to sell our cars.
The sad part is that there are some really really nice ideas in some of today's f2p's (see Atlantica, or the PWI games) which will go to the trash bin because of the economic concept on which these games are based.
P.S. I dont understand the analogies to the real life. If someone's an abused employee in RL and he is poor, should he have the same status in game just because he cannot afford the latest CS goodies? Lots of people play games just because they offer something fundamentally different from the RL...
People who buy items using real life cash are cheaters. Just like if you bought gold, or bought a power leveling system. There is no difference. Earn your items/levels in game by gaming. Not purchasing rewards.
I will relax and breathe when f2p proponents admits its cheating.
NO. You do not get to make the definitions for other peoples games. If the Dev's of a game have established certain dynamics within their games, then by definition that is NOT cheating within their game. End of story. The most you can legitimately say is that you don't approve and will not take part.
F2P is simply a different business model. Bottom line, if you don't like F2P, don't play them. Its really that simple.
Ya i hate F2P but i dont play them problem fixed,but if "your" game goes f2p there are other quality p2p games to sub to
so no need to panic yet. Until/if they all go f2p you have a choice, make it with your wallet, iknow i will.
The following statement is false
The previous statement is true
You call his response Nerd Rage? Perhaps, if so I am guilty as well.
But if that's Nerd Rage, then what do you call some People demanding more MMOs go free to play and then attacking those of us that just want the MMO genre to slow down and breathe itself... and remain as MMOs have been... a subscription funded hobby?
I call it a form Rage as well, maybe not Nerd Rage but more selfish than what we subscription supporters want. We want MMOs to remain as they are (subscription funded with no cash shop features), while others seek to change the Hobby for no other reason than they just don't want to pay a subscription and/or they want to throw their real life money at a MMO to gain an advantage others do not have.
The change of MMOs from P2P to F2P is being fueled not by the Developers and Publishers, but by Players too cheap to pay for their hobby, and by Players wanting to buy their way into success in a MMO. There is enough of both in the real life... MMOs are just games yes, but they are in the virtual and is why many Players enjoy them... as an escape from the foolishness and selfish greedy ways of the real world. In a MMO traditionally a Player earned, crafted, or was gifted by other Players what they acquired and now the new Players (and some old ones as well) want to change this to replicate the real life rat race? I call that selfish and I call it lazy.
If this offends some Players so be it. I am increasingly offended that you are entering the MMO hobby and seeking to change it, even though many of us see no need for the change. If you want a different kind of Online game then go enjoy another sector of Online Entertainment.
And as for the Developers and Publishers seeking to attract a new and different group of people to play your games, thanks a lot for forgetting the Players that in fact helped you build this genre, and thanks for dumping us in the trash just because you have become convinced that you have no choice but make your games free to play. You Developers and Publishers want us MMO Gamers to hype your games, help you bug test them, and be loyal customers, but changing the hobby to seek another group of customers is the wrong way to gain my loyalty, I assure you. Sure I have enjoyed you build the genre in my own tiny way, but that does not entitle you to my undying and steadfast loyalty as a customer when you stray from you first love so to speak.
If you want to change MMOs, and you want a different group of customers, then at least have the courtesy to call the Online Games you market something other than a MMO. Be respectful and call it something else... for it is something else.
Some say MMOs must change... like change is something to be embraced and worshipped... I say there is no justifiable reason for the radical changes taking place in the MMO genre other than laziness and greed. Both have no place in MMO Gaming, even IF "it is only a game".
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...