I've gotta laugh at the claim that no cash shops sell 'uber items'... Almost all of the eastern F2P MMOs have systems for upgrading equipment that operate on a chance for success, failure of which usually damages or destroys the item. The cash shop will then sell an item that guarantees success... it might not be a direct sale of an uber item but the cash shop definitely facilitates paying players to acquire superior equipment.
I'm not even going to get into the fact that most F2P games are much lower quality than subscription based games or that the developers often make the game slow or boring unless you pay.
Having said that it's becoming increasingly apparent that the subscription model has its own flaws with time sinks and other devices used to prolong the game to extend subscriptions beyond the point that a player is no longer having fun. I don't really think either model is going to have much of a future in the long run... Hopefully A-Net's B2P model may prove to be a great alternative.
God, I wish I could discuss these topics with a myriad of users like you. Despite being on opposite sides of the fence, I'm more willing to read and pay attention to what someone has to say when they're decent and respectful of opinions, like you are. Thanks again.
Well thanks that's very nice of you.
As far as game companies going the "bad" route and starting to nickel and dime for everything that is a very real concern and I have no doubt that game companies will do this.
But look, businesses are always trying to push add ons.
I used to be manager of a deparment in the store that sold high end merchandise.
One thing I learned was that having a store is not about getting merchandise and just putting it on shelves. It's about how much floor space is your merchandise taking in relatoin to its price and how fast it moves. It's about putting items at the register that might tempt people into purchasing them as impulse items. Especially items for kids where the kids are bothering their parents and the parents just want to get out of there and they acquiesce in order to get their good purchased and move on.
As I've mentioned cable TV before, you have your sub but you now have pay per view. The free movies are usually the movies that really didn't do well or that were released a long time ago. But the pay movies are the better quality movies, the new releases. And special events such as sports and arts events.
There used to be a lack of advertising on public television but now the messages indicating who supported a particular show are getting longer and sure do seem like advertisments.
And what about movies? ugh. I go to a movie now and not only do refreshments cost as muh as the movie or more but we then sit down and get advertising that has nothing to do with the movie or movies but everything to do with coke or cars or whatever. We are essentially paying to be advertised to.
So I'm under no illusions that any company is in business just "for the love of".
but me as a consumer has a choice to pick and choose my battles. Unlike some, I try to buy most of my products locally if possible to support my local economy. I try not to buy products from companies that seem unscrupulous. And in the end I balance money for for value and make my decisions based on that.
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It's simple: the gaming companies want to use the F2P model to soak us, the gamers, of every last penny they can get from us. Their maximizing of profits (not "profits," which of course is important to every business entity, but their "maximizing of profits") is now clearly more important to F2P game developers than the quality of their games and the consumer experience. I don't like being treated like that, therefore I won't play a F2P game. Like I said, it's simple.
So the company you work for doesn't try to maximize profits in any way?
Nope. I work for a state non-profit. Thanks for making my point for me.
And to boot, clearly you don't see the difference between making profits and giving your consumers the best experience you can, and sucking them dry and maximizing profits regardless of the consumer experience. It's because of people like you who fail to recognize this disctincation that game (and other) companies are allowed to walk all over us (the consumers).
Interesting. That would tend to explain your perspective in terms of the profit motive. One of the reasons that public operations tend to be less effective, is because they are not subject to market forces. Until game companies have government support, they remain subject to market forces. That is one of the reasons for different business models. The market will determine what models are a success.
I find it interesting that you do not believe that its possible for a company to maximize its profits, while still providing quality goods and/or services to their customers. After all, keeping ones customers happy with one is the key to long term success and profit. Granted it is not possible to please everyone, but as long as the majority are, then ones profits will continue. Of course, some will fail to do so, and thus will either change, or go out of business.
F2p is simply another business model. If you do not agree with it, don't play games that are F2P. Its really that simple.
Great artical Justin. Unfortunatly 'GROK' seems to be the mindset with many.
I for one could care less what some onther group of pixels is doing ( aside from Gold Seller/ Buyers who can disrupt game economy) . I play if I enjoy the game. I have both time and money and will spend money even without a cash shop.....I always donated to MUDS when I played them. The attitude that I may not have the time but don't mind being behind the curve is just BS! Why are people with this mindset bothered by people who spent thier time earning $$$ ? Its the same thing and having time seldom mixed with having enough funds to buy items.
Along with the "UBER items being, for the most part being a figment of someones imagination there are people who claim to 'know' someone spending over $200/month in a cash shop is also BS.
Play the game for the game and don't worry about people who may, in addition to being able or willing to buy mostly cosmetic items or has a wealthy family that sent them to a better school or can help them get a better job. Thats life folks..ya gonna live in a cave because life ain't fair??
Bottom line is a FTP/Cashshop in a game can be played without ever spending dime one ...as long as you are happy with the game itself.
Meh, I understand how F2P works and Justin should go play ROM on the PVP server as it pretty much broke all the rules he laid out about what they shouldn't do. When released you could trade in game gold for diamonds (since removed), you most certainly can buy items that let you over power your gear to ridiculous levels (i.e. my level 37 Paladin had 1000 ewer HP's than a level 25 cash shop Rogue) and the best player in the game (type 3 for sure) had spent over 8K bucks on his gear, and that was before the first expansion.
Also, don't forget, needs some more bag space, pay a monthly fee in diamonds, need more inventory space, yet another monthly fee, want to outfit your 'free' house, you guessed it, more diamonds.
They even added in items that could only be bought with a combination of rubies and diamonds, and you could only get rubies by purchasing diamonds, that way those who were trading for diamonds in game could never buy them.
Maybe all cash shop games don't work this way, but ROM did (and likely still does) so I have a bad taste in my mouth.
Its true, there are better F2P models, such as DDO's, and then some that are reportedly much, much worse like Entropa Universe (whatever its called these days)
With models like this, is it any wonder the mere mention of the word F2P (or Pay to Win) evokes such hatred on these forums?
Maybe once the market settles down to some of the less onerous F2P models we'll all feel a bit better about it, but when our P2P games start adding cash shops and blending the models don't expect us to like it.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I find it funny that the sh**-storm that Turbine kicked off kind of led to this article, one that when i first read it i was expecting a defence of turbine.
Maybe we are headed downt that path that most mmo's are going and if thats the case there going to be a lot of long time players go do soemthing else. I had already prety much gave up on turbine, I will wait and see what really happens next.
I have to say it was an interesting article, one that I don't realy agree with but oh well at least I can do respectfully.
It's simple: the gaming companies want to use the F2P model to soak us, the gamers, of every last penny they can get from us. Their maximizing of profits (not "profits," which of course is important to every business entity, but their "maximizing of profits") is now clearly more important to F2P game developers than the quality of their games and the consumer experience. I don't like being treated like that, therefore I won't play a F2P game. Like I said, it's simple.
So the company you work for doesn't try to maximize profits in any way?
Nope. I work for a state non-profit. Thanks for making my point for me.
And to boot, clearly you don't see the difference between making profits and giving your consumers the best experience you can, and sucking them dry and maximizing profits regardless of the consumer experience. It's because of people like you who fail to recognize this disctincation that game (and other) companies are allowed to walk all over us (the consumers).
"oh please" (where is the rolls eyes emote when one needs it)
Well, first of all congratulations for working for a non-profit. I've worked with some non-profits that did great work and were some of the nicest companies that I've seen.
But don't expect everyone to work for a non-profit corporation or business. Not saying you do but the reality is that some areas thrive on for profit businesses and they keep these areas alive.
As far as my not seeing the difference between making profits and giving the consumers the best experience you are barking up the wrong tree with that one.
anecdote:
I sold a woman some high end items for her wedding and to give to her brides maids. They were being imported but had not arrived. I kept telling her that I had never had a shipment "not" come so they would be delivered in time for her wedding. One week before her wedding they did not come.
She was frantic. So I told her that I could guarantee her some better items the next day and I would only charge her for what I would have charged her for her initial order. I did this because I didn't want to seem like I was forcing her to pay more money than she initially would have wanted to and I wanted her to have a great customer service experience.
Items came, she was beyond happy and I retained a customer, insured a good bit of word of mouth and was yelled at by the vice president.
was still worth it.
So don't go pointing your little "you dont' know anything about value regardless of consumer experience" finger. I've lived that. It still doesn't mean that every game that offers a more a la carte service is going to fleece their customers.
You see, you have to prove to me that a game developer (or any company for that matter) is doing that. not with speculation but with actual proof. and I suspect that you will be able to come up with some that will do this and I also suspect that you will find some that still want to retain their customers and won't make it so that these customers feel like they are being robbed.
I'm going on a case by case basis here. I just can't get behind the idea that one company is bad therefore every company must also be bad.
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Geez Justin, no wonder the f2p movement has issues, it employess people like you who don't have one iota of a clue what issues players have with f2p. Take this quote:
"I can’t think of a single F2P MMO (although I’m sure there are some) that allows players to buy awesome gear with real money. And I can think of dozens that don’t. These elusive Über items are exactly that – extremely elusive. Elusive to the point of virtually not existing.
Let that sink in for a while.
F2P games hardly ever sell items that directly increase player power."
You can't think of any f2p games that do that? How about every major one except DDO, tale Runes of Magic for example, you have to buy items from the item shop for decent end game equipment, you can't compete otherwise! They all seem to sell items that increase player power, it is a rare game that doesn't. Again DDO is the exception here rather than the rule.
Next time you decide to write an article on a subject you obviously don't know much about, think twice.
Geez Justin, no wonder the f2p movement has issues, it employess people like you who don't have one iota of a clue what issues players have with f2p. Take this quote:
"I can’t think of a single F2P MMO (although I’m sure there are some) that allows players to buy awesome gear with real money. And I can think of dozens that don’t. These elusive Über items are exactly that – extremely elusive. Elusive to the point of virtually not existing.
Let that sink in for a while.
F2P games hardly ever sell items that directly increase player power."
You can't think of any f2p games that do that? How about every major one except DDO, tale Runes of Magic for example, you have to buy items from the item shop for decent end game equipment, you can't compete otherwise! They all seem to sell items that increase player power, it is a rare game that doesn't. Again DDO is the exception here rather than the rule.
Next time you decide to write an article on a subject you obviously don't know much about, think twice.
Thats pretty much it. F2P games dont usually sell the items DIRECTLY in order to maintain their plausable deniability. They, however, tend to sell enhancement items that allow you to make every item 10 times as powerful as a vanilla version. Atlantica Online for example is extremely guilty of this very common F2P trick. They dont sell weapons or armor on their item mall, they sell 'Atlas' stones which allow players to pay to 'power enhance' their weapons and armor. A non-enhanced set is almost worthless unless it is the best set in the game (currently 'Dragon God set')
Geez Justin, no wonder the f2p movement has issues, it employess people like you who don't have one iota of a clue what issues players have with f2p. Take this quote:
"I can’t think of a single F2P MMO (although I’m sure there are some) that allows players to buy awesome gear with real money. And I can think of dozens that don’t. These elusive Über items are exactly that – extremely elusive. Elusive to the point of virtually not existing.
Let that sink in for a while.
F2P games hardly ever sell items that directly increase player power."
You can't think of any f2p games that do that? How about every major one except DDO, tale Runes of Magic for example, you have to buy items from the item shop for decent end game equipment, you can't compete otherwise! They all seem to sell items that increase player power, it is a rare game that doesn't. Again DDO is the exception here rather than the rule.
Next time you decide to write an article on a subject you obviously don't know much about, think twice.
Have to agree here. Its unresearched articles like this that end up hurting the perception more then helping.
Personally i can't wait. I am a LS and am looking forwar do tthis, LOTRO was dying before this annoucement.
Why do people keep saying this when it was widely agreed that LOTRO was in the top 5 western pay to play mmos? They made this switch because they got greedy and wanted more money, the game by all official reports was doing quite well.
DDO and Lotro are being compared here to pure f2p item shop games, while they are actually hybrid models. They still have subscriptions which are still worth the same as before. In fact the f2p part is severely limited and more like an unlimited trial. So if you really want to play the game to the fullest, subscription is the only way. Hybrid f2p model just enables people to start small and cherrypick to unlock specific content that they want (for example, you can pay a small fee to unlock the warden class without purchasing the Mines of Moria expansion). I also want to believe that Turbine will not make shop items matter too much, just something for convenience and fluff mostly, no end-game gear. So they've assured us at least.
An interesting article, but pointless, rather, there is no substance being delivered. It is funny that the author mentions Nolan Bushnell, someone who is on the board of advisors for a film school in Los Angeles, the person behind Chucky Cheese and Uwink (restaurants) and also known for creating Atari way back in the day. Bushness is more of a business man rather than an individual who actively participates or understands modern game development. Business men getting involved in the creative process have ruined many great products, mostly seen in film, tv and games.
That said, here is the huge problem with free to play, of which the author conveniently ignored. It effects the design of the game. Meaning, origininally a game would be designed to be fun, the maximum amount of enjoyment and special features would be the hook which keeps people playing the game. The moment you add free to play, you essentially design the game around business, not "fun". This results in creativity, general design mechanics, being put on the back burner. It is then the designer's job, or the "business mans" job to try and manipulate the player, to coerce them into spending. It is no longer about "how to keep a player entertained for as long as possible" but rather it becomes "how to keep players spending money through out the entire game". This is very important, and greatly effects, and in my opinion, damages the approach regarding game design.
I have yet to play a f2p game that I personally consider to be both high quality and fair. Now...my OPINION of high quality is probably different than some other peoples' opinion. AND...my opinion of fair...may also be different.
Having said that...my problem is not with ALL item shops. Probably most people around here know that, while not necessarily being a huge fan of SoE, I am a huge fan of EQ2. EQ2 is a p2p game with an item shop, so obviously...the item shop IN THAT GAME is one I don't have any issues with. But I have to say...there are a lot of REASONS that I don't have issues with that item shop specifically, and there are also many reasons why EQ2 is the singular game that I will, thus far anyway, PAY a monthly sub for, and also not be bothered with THEIR item shop. The way a f2p game runs their item shop, imo, shouldn't differ from the way a p2p does....BUT.....that usually is NOT the case, AND....like I said, imo there is generally a MASSIVE quality difference between most free to play games and their paid subscriber based counterparts.
Probably for me....a bigger "offender" of the DLC type games would be Dragon Age: Origins. I loved the game. However....was it worth the over 100 dollars it cost me to play it (even though it is re-playable a couple of times from different race perspectives)? NO. Single player RPGs, imo, should never have DLC. When I play a single player game....I expect it to ALL BE THERE for one price...the price I pay when I purchase a game, and frankly, more than 100 bucks to play an SPRPG...is just WAY too much.
MMOs, to me, are a bit different. They are perpetually changing worlds (or should be) and they are persistent, living, breathing bastions of gamer-life. I expect for this NON-STATIC playground....to cost me more in the long run. That is only logical, as far as I'm concerned. I have spent FAR far far more than 100 dollars in total on MMOs, but it is spread out over months and YEARS of play. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with those games offering the OPTION of fun items in their store, IF....I am also able to obtain those items OR BETTER ITEMS by simply investing TIME playing the game, AS LONG AS those items do not allow an unfair advantage in PvP, WHICH....as a competitive type of e-sport....should NEVER be compromised with a system that allows people with more MONEY to have an advantage over people without money, or with less money.
To me....that's pretty simple.
As soon as there is a free to play game, that has the QUALITY of EQ2, WoW (yes even WoW is far higher quality than any f2p I have ever played, even though it's become an over-simplified pile of rubbish in many regards IMO), LotRO (we'll see how that turns out), DAoC, etc....that can have an item shop that doesn't charge me for larger bags (which crafters should be able to MAKE), extra bank space (because they give you such a ludicrously small amount to begin with), and doesn't offer gear with stats, weapons with stats, and potions that can be used (even in PvP) that increase a players HP or mana regen, take away debuffs, eliminate the repercussions of death, or provide stat or skill boosts.....then I might reconsider and play it. (I'm looking at YOU Perfect World and Allods, among others.) But I have yet to see ANY f2p game that has both quality content and combat paired with a FAIR RMT system.
And don't tell me "DDO, DDO, DDO!" because THAT game is nothing but 100s of strung together instances. Most of the game is played inside instanced buildings that miraculously become dungeons when you step inside the door, and assorted other instanced areas. Gross. I'm talking about a REAL open world MMO. If LotRO does a good job of this....it will be the first, imo, absolute AAA MMO to go f2p. But I can already see item shop things (such as DLC un-lockable quest lines) that I don't like at ALL. Basically it sounds more like a never-ending free trial that allows you to play levels 1-20 and in those areas for free all you like, but beyond that....you have to pay. So why not just pay a monthly sub. AND....that is how they will build their player base back up. Luring people in with "free to play," and hoping they will just go...."well I want more quests, so why not just pay a monthly sub and have it all?"
The forum posters are saavy enough to understand f2p.
F2p developers aren't saavy enough to understand that traditional mmo players don't want cash shops that allow shortcuts or excessively powerful items to be bought with real cash. It ruins the fairness of the playing field.
That said, here is the huge problem with free to play, of which the author conveniently ignored. It effects the design of the game. Meaning, origininally a game would be designed to be fun, the maximum amount of enjoyment and special features would be the hook which keeps people playing the game. The moment you add free to play, you essentially design the game around business, not "fun".
It's interesting you say that.
TranceJeremy posted two links in the LOTRO forum, one of them a powerpoint of Turbine's system and another from the point of view of a chinese f2p game designer.
Here is the link for the chinese game developer and I think you will find it very interesting when the word "fun" is mentioned.
Geez Justin, no wonder the f2p movement has issues, it employess people like you who don't have one iota of a clue what issues players have with f2p. Take this quote:
"I can’t think of a single F2P MMO (although I’m sure there are some) that allows players to buy awesome gear with real money. And I can think of dozens that don’t. These elusive Über items are exactly that – extremely elusive. Elusive to the point of virtually not existing.
Let that sink in for a while.
F2P games hardly ever sell items that directly increase player power."
You can't think of any f2p games that do that? How about every major one except DDO, tale Runes of Magic for example, you have to buy items from the item shop for decent end game equipment, you can't compete otherwise! They all seem to sell items that increase player power, it is a rare game that doesn't. Again DDO is the exception here rather than the rule.
Next time you decide to write an article on a subject you obviously don't know much about, think twice.
Your example is not true. The Runes of Magic cash shop doesn't sell Uber gear (weapons or armor). in RoM, you can upgrade your gear using jewels, and other methods. Here is an except from the Comprehensive Guide to Upgrading Equipment form the game's offical US forums:
B. Method:
i. Vendor Jewels: Jewels bought from refinement vendors can be used to refine your equipment to +6, theoretically, but due to the high chance of failure and downgrade, they will typically only be used to reach +2. On average, equipment can be refined to +1 by using ~10 vendor jewels and refined to +2 by using ~30 vendor jewels.
ii. Item Shop Diamond Jewels: Jewels bought with Diamonds via the Item Shop have a higher probability of success, and less chance to downgrade upon failure. Typically, an item can be brought from +2 to +5 with ~15 jewels.
iii. Item Shop Ruby Jewels: Jewels bought with Rubies via the Item Shop grant a 100% chance of upgrade.
NOTE: Your success rate may vary; these are simply what the rates have been in my experience. It is unknown whether anything can be done to increase your probability of success.
In addition to the "better" cash-shop jewels (types ii and iii above), there are also other jewels available to buy in-game from NPC vendors using ingame currency (type i above), albeit they have a high failure rate.
What RoM sells are "better" jewels that "reduce the chance of bad things happening" (i.e upgrade failure), which is an example of a type of cash-store item that I explicitly stated in my article.
So, to summarize, Runes of Magic does NOT sell uber gear. And upgrading gear can be accomplished without visiting the cash shop.
So, I still stand by my statement. and the premise of the article.
I think at the start allot of the F2P were kinda cheesy, but they they have come along way.
Turbine brought DDO back from the dead more or less, and it turned out to be the big money maker for Turbine, which is cool, let us not forget these compaines do not make these games out of the goodness of thier hearts, they are for profit companies, and they are going to take the avenue of profit, DDO turned out to be a cash cow, lets add another cow to the pasture, LOTRO.
I have no problems with them because they offer me options, I can sub like a standard mmo, and I can buy some extra stuff in the store if I CHOOSE to.or if I am an extreme casual player, and can't see paying the sub fees, I can puchase my content as I go, options for every one.
I really think that the day of the standard billing mmo, is coming to an end, to much money to be made with the micro-transaction, I know to me it is to a point if you can't adapt might be time to look for another form of entertainment..
Micro-Transactions and F2p games are here and I doubt they will be going away anytime soon..
With free trial, P2P = F2P + PAYing for more play time and content.
See if anyone can prove this equation wrong.
Another challenge to naysayers.....
Show me a single P2P that gives a free trial player unlimited playing time and unlimited access to all content, including ALL future expansions.
If you want to talk about fairness, lets see how fair P2P is to a free player like myself.
To remind you, all players in F2P are essentially unlimited free trial players with free access to all expansions.
P2P is selling content, F2P is selling tools. That's the only difference between the two.
Hate to point this out, but free players of LOTRO will not, in fact, have access to either Moria or Mirkwood without paying, so yeah. . .
I know, and I probably won't bother with LOTR. But if they want to compare fairness of models, they need to do so with FREE players in mind, since free trial players are the only common denominator between the two models.
Need to see it from free trial players' perspective, in another word.
Why isn't it okay for someone to just not like F2P? Why the constant push of the writer to justify F2Ps existance? For the record, I have played tons of F2Ps and some of them are fun, and some of them (most of the ones I played) just suck. Isn't it ok to just NOT like something?
It seems that around here if you don't like an item shop you are labeled as a reactionary and a trouble maker. Well you can place that label on me. I dont like this trend, I never will, and I dont care what you call me or how many blogs from MMORPG support it.
Why isn't it okay for someone to just not like F2P? Why the constant push of the writer to justify F2Ps existance? For the record, I have played tons of F2Ps and some of them are fun, and some of them (most of the ones I played) just suck. Isn't it ok to just NOT like something?
It seems that around here if you don't like an item shop you are labeled as a reactionary and a trouble maker. Well you can place that label on me. I dont like this trend, I never will, and I dont care what you call me or how many blogs from MMORPG support it.
I prefer to call it "blowing smoke out one's ass".
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Comments
You had me up to the 'next step' where players will be treating 'gold' as a moveable in game currency. I like the seperation.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
I've gotta laugh at the claim that no cash shops sell 'uber items'... Almost all of the eastern F2P MMOs have systems for upgrading equipment that operate on a chance for success, failure of which usually damages or destroys the item. The cash shop will then sell an item that guarantees success... it might not be a direct sale of an uber item but the cash shop definitely facilitates paying players to acquire superior equipment.
I'm not even going to get into the fact that most F2P games are much lower quality than subscription based games or that the developers often make the game slow or boring unless you pay.
Having said that it's becoming increasingly apparent that the subscription model has its own flaws with time sinks and other devices used to prolong the game to extend subscriptions beyond the point that a player is no longer having fun. I don't really think either model is going to have much of a future in the long run... Hopefully A-Net's B2P model may prove to be a great alternative.
Well thanks that's very nice of you.
As far as game companies going the "bad" route and starting to nickel and dime for everything that is a very real concern and I have no doubt that game companies will do this.
But look, businesses are always trying to push add ons.
I used to be manager of a deparment in the store that sold high end merchandise.
One thing I learned was that having a store is not about getting merchandise and just putting it on shelves. It's about how much floor space is your merchandise taking in relatoin to its price and how fast it moves. It's about putting items at the register that might tempt people into purchasing them as impulse items. Especially items for kids where the kids are bothering their parents and the parents just want to get out of there and they acquiesce in order to get their good purchased and move on.
As I've mentioned cable TV before, you have your sub but you now have pay per view. The free movies are usually the movies that really didn't do well or that were released a long time ago. But the pay movies are the better quality movies, the new releases. And special events such as sports and arts events.
There used to be a lack of advertising on public television but now the messages indicating who supported a particular show are getting longer and sure do seem like advertisments.
And what about movies? ugh. I go to a movie now and not only do refreshments cost as muh as the movie or more but we then sit down and get advertising that has nothing to do with the movie or movies but everything to do with coke or cars or whatever. We are essentially paying to be advertised to.
So I'm under no illusions that any company is in business just "for the love of".
but me as a consumer has a choice to pick and choose my battles. Unlike some, I try to buy most of my products locally if possible to support my local economy. I try not to buy products from companies that seem unscrupulous. And in the end I balance money for for value and make my decisions based on that.
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Interesting. That would tend to explain your perspective in terms of the profit motive. One of the reasons that public operations tend to be less effective, is because they are not subject to market forces. Until game companies have government support, they remain subject to market forces. That is one of the reasons for different business models. The market will determine what models are a success.
I find it interesting that you do not believe that its possible for a company to maximize its profits, while still providing quality goods and/or services to their customers. After all, keeping ones customers happy with one is the key to long term success and profit. Granted it is not possible to please everyone, but as long as the majority are, then ones profits will continue. Of course, some will fail to do so, and thus will either change, or go out of business.
F2p is simply another business model. If you do not agree with it, don't play games that are F2P. Its really that simple.
Great artical Justin. Unfortunatly 'GROK' seems to be the mindset with many.
I for one could care less what some onther group of pixels is doing ( aside from Gold Seller/ Buyers who can disrupt game economy) . I play if I enjoy the game. I have both time and money and will spend money even without a cash shop.....I always donated to MUDS when I played them. The attitude that I may not have the time but don't mind being behind the curve is just BS! Why are people with this mindset bothered by people who spent thier time earning $$$ ? Its the same thing and having time seldom mixed with having enough funds to buy items.
Along with the "UBER items being, for the most part being a figment of someones imagination there are people who claim to 'know' someone spending over $200/month in a cash shop is also BS.
Play the game for the game and don't worry about people who may, in addition to being able or willing to buy mostly cosmetic items or has a wealthy family that sent them to a better school or can help them get a better job. Thats life folks..ya gonna live in a cave because life ain't fair??
Bottom line is a FTP/Cashshop in a game can be played without ever spending dime one ...as long as you are happy with the game itself.
Meh, I understand how F2P works and Justin should go play ROM on the PVP server as it pretty much broke all the rules he laid out about what they shouldn't do. When released you could trade in game gold for diamonds (since removed), you most certainly can buy items that let you over power your gear to ridiculous levels (i.e. my level 37 Paladin had 1000 ewer HP's than a level 25 cash shop Rogue) and the best player in the game (type 3 for sure) had spent over 8K bucks on his gear, and that was before the first expansion.
Also, don't forget, needs some more bag space, pay a monthly fee in diamonds, need more inventory space, yet another monthly fee, want to outfit your 'free' house, you guessed it, more diamonds.
They even added in items that could only be bought with a combination of rubies and diamonds, and you could only get rubies by purchasing diamonds, that way those who were trading for diamonds in game could never buy them.
Maybe all cash shop games don't work this way, but ROM did (and likely still does) so I have a bad taste in my mouth.
Its true, there are better F2P models, such as DDO's, and then some that are reportedly much, much worse like Entropa Universe (whatever its called these days)
With models like this, is it any wonder the mere mention of the word F2P (or Pay to Win) evokes such hatred on these forums?
Maybe once the market settles down to some of the less onerous F2P models we'll all feel a bit better about it, but when our P2P games start adding cash shops and blending the models don't expect us to like it.
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I got to say all this in retrospec.
I find it funny that the sh**-storm that Turbine kicked off kind of led to this article, one that when i first read it i was expecting a defence of turbine.
Maybe we are headed downt that path that most mmo's are going and if thats the case there going to be a lot of long time players go do soemthing else. I had already prety much gave up on turbine, I will wait and see what really happens next.
I have to say it was an interesting article, one that I don't realy agree with but oh well at least I can do respectfully.
"oh please" (where is the rolls eyes emote when one needs it)
Well, first of all congratulations for working for a non-profit. I've worked with some non-profits that did great work and were some of the nicest companies that I've seen.
But don't expect everyone to work for a non-profit corporation or business. Not saying you do but the reality is that some areas thrive on for profit businesses and they keep these areas alive.
As far as my not seeing the difference between making profits and giving the consumers the best experience you are barking up the wrong tree with that one.
anecdote:
I sold a woman some high end items for her wedding and to give to her brides maids. They were being imported but had not arrived. I kept telling her that I had never had a shipment "not" come so they would be delivered in time for her wedding. One week before her wedding they did not come.
She was frantic. So I told her that I could guarantee her some better items the next day and I would only charge her for what I would have charged her for her initial order. I did this because I didn't want to seem like I was forcing her to pay more money than she initially would have wanted to and I wanted her to have a great customer service experience.
Items came, she was beyond happy and I retained a customer, insured a good bit of word of mouth and was yelled at by the vice president.
was still worth it.
So don't go pointing your little "you dont' know anything about value regardless of consumer experience" finger. I've lived that. It still doesn't mean that every game that offers a more a la carte service is going to fleece their customers.
You see, you have to prove to me that a game developer (or any company for that matter) is doing that. not with speculation but with actual proof. and I suspect that you will be able to come up with some that will do this and I also suspect that you will find some that still want to retain their customers and won't make it so that these customers feel like they are being robbed.
I'm going on a case by case basis here. I just can't get behind the idea that one company is bad therefore every company must also be bad.
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Geez Justin, no wonder the f2p movement has issues, it employess people like you who don't have one iota of a clue what issues players have with f2p. Take this quote:
"I can’t think of a single F2P MMO (although I’m sure there are some) that allows players to buy awesome gear with real money. And I can think of dozens that don’t. These elusive Über items are exactly that – extremely elusive. Elusive to the point of virtually not existing.
Let that sink in for a while.
F2P games hardly ever sell items that directly increase player power."
You can't think of any f2p games that do that? How about every major one except DDO, tale Runes of Magic for example, you have to buy items from the item shop for decent end game equipment, you can't compete otherwise! They all seem to sell items that increase player power, it is a rare game that doesn't. Again DDO is the exception here rather than the rule.
Next time you decide to write an article on a subject you obviously don't know much about, think twice.
Thats pretty much it. F2P games dont usually sell the items DIRECTLY in order to maintain their plausable deniability. They, however, tend to sell enhancement items that allow you to make every item 10 times as powerful as a vanilla version. Atlantica Online for example is extremely guilty of this very common F2P trick. They dont sell weapons or armor on their item mall, they sell 'Atlas' stones which allow players to pay to 'power enhance' their weapons and armor. A non-enhanced set is almost worthless unless it is the best set in the game (currently 'Dragon God set')
Personally i can't wait. I am a LS and am looking forwar do tthis, LOTRO was dying before this annoucement.
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Have to agree here. Its unresearched articles like this that end up hurting the perception more then helping.
Why do people keep saying this when it was widely agreed that LOTRO was in the top 5 western pay to play mmos? They made this switch because they got greedy and wanted more money, the game by all official reports was doing quite well.
DDO and Lotro are being compared here to pure f2p item shop games, while they are actually hybrid models. They still have subscriptions which are still worth the same as before. In fact the f2p part is severely limited and more like an unlimited trial. So if you really want to play the game to the fullest, subscription is the only way. Hybrid f2p model just enables people to start small and cherrypick to unlock specific content that they want (for example, you can pay a small fee to unlock the warden class without purchasing the Mines of Moria expansion). I also want to believe that Turbine will not make shop items matter too much, just something for convenience and fluff mostly, no end-game gear. So they've assured us at least.
An interesting article, but pointless, rather, there is no substance being delivered. It is funny that the author mentions Nolan Bushnell, someone who is on the board of advisors for a film school in Los Angeles, the person behind Chucky Cheese and Uwink (restaurants) and also known for creating Atari way back in the day. Bushness is more of a business man rather than an individual who actively participates or understands modern game development. Business men getting involved in the creative process have ruined many great products, mostly seen in film, tv and games.
That said, here is the huge problem with free to play, of which the author conveniently ignored. It effects the design of the game. Meaning, origininally a game would be designed to be fun, the maximum amount of enjoyment and special features would be the hook which keeps people playing the game. The moment you add free to play, you essentially design the game around business, not "fun". This results in creativity, general design mechanics, being put on the back burner. It is then the designer's job, or the "business mans" job to try and manipulate the player, to coerce them into spending. It is no longer about "how to keep a player entertained for as long as possible" but rather it becomes "how to keep players spending money through out the entire game". This is very important, and greatly effects, and in my opinion, damages the approach regarding game design.
My stand on f2p is this:
I have yet to play a f2p game that I personally consider to be both high quality and fair. Now...my OPINION of high quality is probably different than some other peoples' opinion. AND...my opinion of fair...may also be different.
Having said that...my problem is not with ALL item shops. Probably most people around here know that, while not necessarily being a huge fan of SoE, I am a huge fan of EQ2. EQ2 is a p2p game with an item shop, so obviously...the item shop IN THAT GAME is one I don't have any issues with. But I have to say...there are a lot of REASONS that I don't have issues with that item shop specifically, and there are also many reasons why EQ2 is the singular game that I will, thus far anyway, PAY a monthly sub for, and also not be bothered with THEIR item shop. The way a f2p game runs their item shop, imo, shouldn't differ from the way a p2p does....BUT.....that usually is NOT the case, AND....like I said, imo there is generally a MASSIVE quality difference between most free to play games and their paid subscriber based counterparts.
Probably for me....a bigger "offender" of the DLC type games would be Dragon Age: Origins. I loved the game. However....was it worth the over 100 dollars it cost me to play it (even though it is re-playable a couple of times from different race perspectives)? NO. Single player RPGs, imo, should never have DLC. When I play a single player game....I expect it to ALL BE THERE for one price...the price I pay when I purchase a game, and frankly, more than 100 bucks to play an SPRPG...is just WAY too much.
MMOs, to me, are a bit different. They are perpetually changing worlds (or should be) and they are persistent, living, breathing bastions of gamer-life. I expect for this NON-STATIC playground....to cost me more in the long run. That is only logical, as far as I'm concerned. I have spent FAR far far more than 100 dollars in total on MMOs, but it is spread out over months and YEARS of play. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with those games offering the OPTION of fun items in their store, IF....I am also able to obtain those items OR BETTER ITEMS by simply investing TIME playing the game, AS LONG AS those items do not allow an unfair advantage in PvP, WHICH....as a competitive type of e-sport....should NEVER be compromised with a system that allows people with more MONEY to have an advantage over people without money, or with less money.
To me....that's pretty simple.
As soon as there is a free to play game, that has the QUALITY of EQ2, WoW (yes even WoW is far higher quality than any f2p I have ever played, even though it's become an over-simplified pile of rubbish in many regards IMO), LotRO (we'll see how that turns out), DAoC, etc....that can have an item shop that doesn't charge me for larger bags (which crafters should be able to MAKE), extra bank space (because they give you such a ludicrously small amount to begin with), and doesn't offer gear with stats, weapons with stats, and potions that can be used (even in PvP) that increase a players HP or mana regen, take away debuffs, eliminate the repercussions of death, or provide stat or skill boosts.....then I might reconsider and play it. (I'm looking at YOU Perfect World and Allods, among others.) But I have yet to see ANY f2p game that has both quality content and combat paired with a FAIR RMT system.
And don't tell me "DDO, DDO, DDO!" because THAT game is nothing but 100s of strung together instances. Most of the game is played inside instanced buildings that miraculously become dungeons when you step inside the door, and assorted other instanced areas. Gross. I'm talking about a REAL open world MMO. If LotRO does a good job of this....it will be the first, imo, absolute AAA MMO to go f2p. But I can already see item shop things (such as DLC un-lockable quest lines) that I don't like at ALL. Basically it sounds more like a never-ending free trial that allows you to play levels 1-20 and in those areas for free all you like, but beyond that....you have to pay. So why not just pay a monthly sub. AND....that is how they will build their player base back up. Luring people in with "free to play," and hoping they will just go...."well I want more quests, so why not just pay a monthly sub and have it all?"
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The forum posters are saavy enough to understand f2p.
F2p developers aren't saavy enough to understand that traditional mmo players don't want cash shops that allow shortcuts or excessively powerful items to be bought with real cash. It ruins the fairness of the playing field.
It's interesting you say that.
TranceJeremy posted two links in the LOTRO forum, one of them a powerpoint of Turbine's system and another from the point of view of a chinese f2p game designer.
Here is the link for the chinese game developer and I think you will find it very interesting when the word "fun" is mentioned.
http://www.slideshare.net/vgsummit/zhan-ye-what-us-game-developers-need-to-know-about-freetoplay-in-china-2408412
Here is the link to T.Jeremy's post:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/280649/An-insight-into-how-F2P-games-are-designed.html
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
With free trial, P2P = F2P + PAYing for more play time and content.
See if anyone can prove this equation wrong.
Another challenge to naysayers.....
Show me a single P2P that gives a free trial player unlimited playing time and unlimited access to all content, including ALL future expansions.
If you want to talk about fairness, lets see how fair P2P is to a free player like myself.
To remind you, all players in F2P are essentially unlimited free trial players with free access to all expansions.
P2P is selling content, F2P is selling tools. That's the only difference between the two.
Your example is not true. The Runes of Magic cash shop doesn't sell Uber gear (weapons or armor). in RoM, you can upgrade your gear using jewels, and other methods. Here is an except from the Comprehensive Guide to Upgrading Equipment form the game's offical US forums:
B. Method:
i. Vendor Jewels: Jewels bought from refinement vendors can be used to refine your equipment to +6, theoretically, but due to the high chance of failure and downgrade, they will typically only be used to reach +2. On average, equipment can be refined to +1 by using ~10 vendor jewels and refined to +2 by using ~30 vendor jewels.
ii. Item Shop Diamond Jewels: Jewels bought with Diamonds via the Item Shop have a higher probability of success, and less chance to downgrade upon failure. Typically, an item can be brought from +2 to +5 with ~15 jewels.
iii. Item Shop Ruby Jewels: Jewels bought with Rubies via the Item Shop grant a 100% chance of upgrade.
NOTE: Your success rate may vary; these are simply what the rates have been in my experience. It is unknown whether anything can be done to increase your probability of success.
In addition to the "better" cash-shop jewels (types ii and iii above), there are also other jewels available to buy in-game from NPC vendors using ingame currency (type i above), albeit they have a high failure rate.
What RoM sells are "better" jewels that "reduce the chance of bad things happening" (i.e upgrade failure), which is an example of a type of cash-store item that I explicitly stated in my article.
So, to summarize, Runes of Magic does NOT sell uber gear. And upgrading gear can be accomplished without visiting the cash shop.
So, I still stand by my statement. and the premise of the article.
Hate to point this out, but free players of LOTRO will not, in fact, have access to either Moria or Mirkwood without paying, so yeah. . .
I think at the start allot of the F2P were kinda cheesy, but they they have come along way.
Turbine brought DDO back from the dead more or less, and it turned out to be the big money maker for Turbine, which is cool, let us not forget these compaines do not make these games out of the goodness of thier hearts, they are for profit companies, and they are going to take the avenue of profit, DDO turned out to be a cash cow, lets add another cow to the pasture, LOTRO.
I have no problems with them because they offer me options, I can sub like a standard mmo, and I can buy some extra stuff in the store if I CHOOSE to.or if I am an extreme casual player, and can't see paying the sub fees, I can puchase my content as I go, options for every one.
I really think that the day of the standard billing mmo, is coming to an end, to much money to be made with the micro-transaction, I know to me it is to a point if you can't adapt might be time to look for another form of entertainment..
Micro-Transactions and F2p games are here and I doubt they will be going away anytime soon..
I know, and I probably won't bother with LOTR. But if they want to compare fairness of models, they need to do so with FREE players in mind, since free trial players are the only common denominator between the two models.
Need to see it from free trial players' perspective, in another word.
It seems that around here if you don't like an item shop you are labeled as a reactionary and a trouble maker. Well you can place that label on me. I dont like this trend, I never will, and I dont care what you call me or how many blogs from MMORPG support it.
I prefer to call it "blowing smoke out one's ass".
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