It's hilarious when people start throwing around phrases like 'real gamer' as if it means anything. Playing a game, any game, makes someone a real gamer just like breathing air makes them a real air-breather.
If there's some kind of approved guidelines that isn't someone's personal opinion I've yet to see it.
If you can't feel the difference between buying something, and winning or earning something, then it can't be explained to you.
I feel like this sums up the thread. F2P games allow you to earn things by using real money, that is ridiculous. Why not just rob a bank rather than get a real job?
Cheating FEELS like cheating, buying things rather than earning them? FEELS like cheating.
Recent history has demonstrated that the best way to rob a bank is to own one.(especially if it is Too Big to Fail)
The hysteria over F2P is really entertaining, and demonstrates that all too many people have not bothered to think things through. F2P is simply a different business model. If you don't like it, don't play games that use it. Its no more "unfair" than games that reward those who have little life outside of the game. If something has been established by the Dev's themselves, then by definition it is not cheating. Once more, if you don't like F2P games, don't play them.
This mentality works fine for a game that starts as F2P - do not like F2P, do not play it. For a game that you have been playing that converts...guess what - you get to complain.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Interesting article, and one of the few that pull me from 'lurk' mode. I play a variety of f2p and sub based games, but I really have an issue with the LOTRO move. I have a lifetime sub for LOTRO, and while I normally would be enthused about the move towards f2p, I think they are handling it badly in this case. Making lifetime players cough up additional money for pay-only classes seems like double dipping. I realize it should be the same as buying an expansion, but I don't have to buy an expansion for each character on my account.
I think Lords of Ultima and GuildWars are doing it right. If you don't pay, you don't lose anything that was promised. LOTRO promised, then changed their mind.
In my opinion, the xbox dlc is the best model. You buy a complete game. You can then occasionally buy some extra toys or content. I'm fine with this, and never felt like I was getting ripped off, while with LOTRO, I do.
My probelm with cash shops is not the items they can offer but that most of the time that type of games are far far more expensive then those only with subscription.
This is a statement I agree with. I've heard F2P fans say that they're in fact cheaper, but I have yet to see any proof, especially when I'm breaking down a subscription by the amount of time I've played vs. the price of the subscription. As someone else already pointed out, if I spend a fiften dollar flat fee a month for a game, and play at least a couple hours a week, I'm getting more than fifteen dollars out of the product (compared to other forms of entertainment, such as movies or books). I'm just completely baffled that people would choose to pay more for less.
I understand that people want to play free games, but these games are not free. They aren't even remotely free, despite being advertised as such, which, alone, should make us question these companies credibility. We should be calling these "F2A", or free to access, because that's all you're guaranteed. You can download it, make an account, and login, but you better be prepared to spend some money or you're going to feel like a kid in an amusement park without any tickets to ride, and not just any amusement park, we're talking open-for-the-weekend, carnies-all-upons, over-priced-fair-food, here.
But then the issue here is that players are trying to "one size fits all" these games. Or, every free to play game is going to be exactly like every other free to play game.
One might argue that if you pay fifteen dollars per month and play only two hours per week that there are games out there where you wouldn't have to pay a dime for those 2 hours per week.
The issue is not whether one has the option to pay for content but whether one needs to pay for content in order to have a chance at playing competitivley.
As the article states, and I agree, the players who don't pay a cent fill up the game world and make it more alive. Whether they are quality people or not is yet another discussion. I don't assume that just because someone can pony up fifteen dollars per month that they are any better than anyone else.
I will assume that some of the people who can't come up with the credit card info might be young and might still be learning how to behave in socieity. But you know, there are people who are 50 years old and don't know how to behave so there it is.
In the end "free to play games" are as much about making money as any other online game. Or business for that matter.
In many ways it's a marketing tool that gets people in the door. Like Las Vegas, people are given free drinks, low cost rooms, etc not because the hotels want to be nice but it is rather inviting for people who want a cheap vacation. Of course, how one comports themselves on the gambling floor could mean the difference between a cheap vacation and running the deed of your house through the credit card machine.
What I like about the Turbine option is that it gets more people in the game, will create incentive for Turbine to make more content, it will a la carte for people who like the game but not enough to pay a sub or for people who just don't have the time to sink into a game and don't need to have all the content available.
The danger is that they could add items that seem a bit overpowered in the store. but as far as buff and xp buffs I can get all that by just playing the game. an armor buff for 45 minutes costs me 3000 destiny points. a rough equivalent in the ddo store is about $1.42 for their highest lvl armor buff though I don't know how long that is.
That is just looking at the 420 points for $6.50
So essentially, players who actively play lOTRO will get buffs like speed buffs, removing bad effects to xp buffs in the course of play regardless of the store.
essentially the Turbine store becomes nothing more than an a la carte method of playing and in some ways might be looked at as "pay as you go".
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Then offer us some good bit of "informative" journalism: articles with the pros and cons of various systems. Different views of the incoming future from the insides of the industry. Alternatives, options and viewpoints from different heads with different ideas, however unconventional or unheard-of. Something, that is, that MMORPG.com has been doing exceptioanlly well and with balanced wisdom for quite some time and that, for this damned-f2p-thing, you've been putting aside delivering us a single-minded, incessant propaganda. I think Mmorpg crossed a line here.
I'm a fan of yours, Jon, not a griefer or a conspiracy theorist and no one, now, is sadder than me writing these words...
Really, in full honesty and with my full respect and regards.
Honestly, I haven't spoken to a single person within the MMO industry who doesn't feel the same way about F2P. it's coming, whether we like it or not.
I honestly thought that this article was something a bit different, offering real insight into why this is happening. it's not askign anyone to like it, it's just saying that there's a reason it's happening and that it probably isn't the end of the world. Something that is a fact.
It's not single-minded propoganda. Do you realize that I don't actually see the columnists' subjects until the day they submit their articles to me? This is done to make sure that the editorial staff isn't unduly affecting what the independent columnists want to write about. Right now, people seem to want to address this issue, probably because, from their perspective, they see a lot of people responding with complete venom and want to explain why they feel that might be an overreaction.
As for covering the LotRO news, of course it's going to get a lot of play... it's a HUGE story and one that a great many people in the industry see as a positive one.
That said, next week's list is going to be a list of reasons people might want to be leery. There's an overall balance here, no need to worry.
Thanks for your kind answer and for some insight in your editorial choices. I'll be waiting for the next articles.
It's hilarious when people start throwing around phrases like 'real gamer' as if it means anything. Playing a game, any game, makes someone a real gamer just like breathing air makes them a real air-breather.
If there's some kind of approved guidelines that isn't someone's personal opinion I've yet to see it.
If you can't feel the difference between buying something, and winning or earning something, then it can't be explained to you.
Interesting... In P2P games, you are buying things with your time investment. That is also how many people gain their money. Some people are willing to trade some money rather than larger amounts of their time in games. Why do you insist that they not have that option? It all comes down to the choices involved.
In p2p he is buying things with his time investment playing the game. That playing the game part is important. Advancing in a game without playing it doesn't make too much sense.
As was stated, I've seldom seen games that sell epic gear. What I have seen is items that add leverage time wise. EXP potions(but why rush to the end of the game??) health and mana potions and fluff. I suspect at least part of the hysteria has to do with people not wanting to compete on a different playing field than one they are used to. I have no problem rewarding the Dev's of a game that I find entertaining. P2P, F2P or hybrid. All that matters is that I find it entertaining.
Then offer us some good bit of "informative" journalism: articles with the pros and cons of various systems. Different views of the incoming future from the insides of the industry. Alternatives, options and viewpoints from different heads with different ideas, however unconventional or unheard-of. Something, that is, that MMORPG.com has been doing exceptioanlly well and with balanced wisdom for quite some time and that, for this damned-f2p-thing, you've been putting aside delivering us a single-minded, incessant propaganda. I think Mmorpg crossed a line here.
I'm a fan of yours, Jon, not a griefer or a conspiracy theorist and no one, now, is sadder than me writing these words...
Really, in full honesty and with my full respect and regards.
Honestly, I haven't spoken to a single person within the MMO industry who doesn't feel the same way about F2P. it's coming, whether we like it or not.
I honestly thought that this article was something a bit different, offering real insight into why this is happening. it's not askign anyone to like it, it's just saying that there's a reason it's happening and that it probably isn't the end of the world. Something that is a fact.
It's not single-minded propoganda. Do you realize that I don't actually see the columnists' subjects until the day they submit their articles to me? This is done to make sure that the editorial staff isn't unduly affecting what the independent columnists want to write about. Right now, people seem to want to address this issue, probably because, from their perspective, they see a lot of people responding with complete venom and want to explain why they feel that might be an overreaction.
As for covering the LotRO news, of course it's going to get a lot of play... it's a HUGE story and one that a great many people in the industry see as a positive one.
That said, next week's list is going to be a list of reasons people might want to be leery. There's an overall balance here, no need to worry.
The article was informative, but it really hits a sour note at the end when it says "Relax ... breathe."
That is an extremely condescending thing to say to your readers. It completely setup this thread for epic flaming.
What about if your readers are idiots? I mean, have you actually read these forums?
"Relax... breathe" is the perfect thing to say to 99% of posters on this site.
"F2P seems to be a dirty word in our forums; the mere utterance of which evokes violent palpitations amongst many readers."
F2P isn't a dirty word. What it is however is a flag that many peoples have seen change the game significantly. Here's how;
People can buy items for real money and then sell those for in game money to become very wealthy. Oftentimes the items bought for real money have no limit to how many you can buy, can be traded, and cannot be found otherwise in the game. This doesn't just impact the cost of real money items, but also other in game items. The person who wants to sell extremely valuable items wants to sell them for insane amounts of money and will look for people who buy items with real money.
There are often no money sinks. It boils down to the have and the have nots. Do you have disposable income where you can buy lots of stuff, or not? If you don't, then don't expect to succeed. The haves have a position then where there is nothing that they cannot buy and so most in game items are cheap as dirt. Players who buy rl money items can always go to the well and buy more. This ruins the economy.
There is often no auction house. In any economy you want people able to exchange what they need for what they have. It's why ebay is popular. If people whom buy real life money had items in game (common crafting items) that they need to buy, the excess of money is traded for in game items for items that are dirt cheap. It becomes a money sink, especially for items that have random successes. Without an auction house then the money sink occurs very slowly and the economy is often broken. Everyone expects to sell to a rich player. There is no guide to prices based on generic supply and demand. Players must try and sell across districts and zones to lure that right player into buying the item. This means it is easier for players that buy items with real life money, then those who don't in the game.
These are the three biggest problems with F2P games along with developers who get 'greedy' and cut their development staff and content just to make money for their stockholders. The temptation of 'corrupting' a game is much easier when it's F2P. The developers hope for quantity over quality. This is why F2P often is viewed as bad, or dirty, or wrong.
Then offer us some good bit of "informative" journalism: articles with the pros and cons of various systems. Different views of the incoming future from the insides of the industry. Alternatives, options and viewpoints from different heads with different ideas, however unconventional or unheard-of. Something, that is, that MMORPG.com has been doing exceptioanlly well and with balanced wisdom for quite some time and that, for this damned-f2p-thing, you've been putting aside delivering us a single-minded, incessant propaganda. I think Mmorpg crossed a line here.
I'm a fan of yours, Jon, not a griefer or a conspiracy theorist and no one, now, is sadder than me writing these words...
Really, in full honesty and with my full respect and regards.
Honestly, I haven't spoken to a single person within the MMO industry who doesn't feel the same way about F2P. it's coming, whether we like it or not.
I honestly thought that this article was something a bit different, offering real insight into why this is happening. it's not askign anyone to like it, it's just saying that there's a reason it's happening and that it probably isn't the end of the world. Something that is a fact.
It's not single-minded propoganda. Do you realize that I don't actually see the columnists' subjects until the day they submit their articles to me? This is done to make sure that the editorial staff isn't unduly affecting what the independent columnists want to write about. Right now, people seem to want to address this issue, probably because, from their perspective, they see a lot of people responding with complete venom and want to explain why they feel that might be an overreaction.
As for covering the LotRO news, of course it's going to get a lot of play... it's a HUGE story and one that a great many people in the industry see as a positive one.
That said, next week's list is going to be a list of reasons people might want to be leery. There's an overall balance here, no need to worry.
The article was informative, but it really hits a sour note at the end when it says "Relax ... breathe."
That is an extremely condescending thing to say to your readers. It completely setup this thread for epic flaming.
What about if your readers are idiots? I mean, have you actually read these forums?
"Relax... breathe" is the perfect thing to say to 99% of posters on this site.
Well... Then you need to pretend that they aren't ^^ Conflict drives page views, and page views drive ad rates. Ad rates allow sites to stay in business and/or expand. MMORPG has been doing a good job of balancing the tension dynamics for years now. F2P is simply one of the current hot button issues that many people feel strongly about. Market trends change over time, and it appears that F2P's time in the western markets is arriving. How that will work out, is anyones guess at this point.
Interesting article, and one of the few that pull me from 'lurk' mode. I play a variety of f2p and sub based games, but I really have an issue with the LOTRO move. I have a lifetime sub for LOTRO, and while I normally would be enthused about the move towards f2p, I think they are handling it badly in this case. Making lifetime players cough up additional money for pay-only classes seems like double dipping. I realize it should be the same as buying an expansion, but I don't have to buy an expansion for each character on my account. I think Lords of Ultima and GuildWars are doing it right. If you don't pay, you don't lose anything that was promised. LOTRO promised, then changed their mind. In my opinion, the xbox dlc is the best model. You buy a complete game. You can then occasionally buy some extra toys or content. I'm fine with this, and never felt like I was getting ripped off, while with LOTRO, I do.
Actually it appears lifetime members got a great deal with Turbine. The only premium classes came out with Moria expansion and all folks even lifetimers have to buy the expansions, so the only reason you would not have access to a class is if you did not buy the expansion. So yes I guess, have a lifetime and want to play those classes you will have to buy the expansions, but that is nothing out of the ordinary. That is standard pay2play operating procedure. Their main boards have a freetoplay group. It has a pretty good faq.
The way I understand it as a lifetime member, you have your subscription covered for as long as the game is open plus 500 pts to spend in the cash shop every month. (same benefit anyone subscribing to the game has) just no monthly bill. Not sure how that is not a great deal.
My probelm with cash shops is not the items they can offer but that most of the time that type of games are far far more expensive then those only with subscription.
This is a statement I agree with. I've heard F2P fans say that they're in fact cheaper, but I have yet to see any proof, especially when I'm breaking down a subscription by the amount of time I've played vs. the price of the subscription. As someone else already pointed out, if I spend a fiften dollar flat fee a month for a game, and play at least a couple hours a week, I'm getting more than fifteen dollars out of the product (compared to other forms of entertainment, such as movies or books). I'm just completely baffled that people would choose to pay more for less.
I understand that people want to play free games, but these games are not free. They aren't even remotely free, despite being advertised as such, which, alone, should make us question these companies credibility. We should be calling these "F2A", or free to access, because that's all you're guaranteed. You can download it, make an account, and login, but you better be prepared to spend some money or you're going to feel like a kid in an amusement park without any tickets to ride, and not just any amusement park, we're talking open-for-the-weekend, carnies-all-upons, over-priced-fair-food, here.
But then the issue here is that players are trying to "one size fits all" these games. Or, every free to play game is going to be exactly like every other free to play game.
One might argue that if you pay fifteen dollars per month and play only two hours per week that there are games out there where you wouldn't have to pay a dime for those 2 hours per week.
The issue is not whether one has the option to pay for content but whether one needs to pay for content in order to have a chance at playing competitivley.
As the article states, and I agree, the players who don't pay a cent fill up the game world and make it more alive. Whether they are quality people or not is yet another discussion. I don't assume that just because someone can pony up fifteen dollars per month that they are any better than anyone else.
I will assume that some of the people who can't come up with the credit card info might be young and might still be learning how to behave in socieity. But you know, there are people who are 50 years old and don't know how to behave so there it is.
In the end "free to play games" are as much about making money as any other online game. Or business for that matter.
In many ways it's a marketing tool that gets people in the door. Like Las Vegas, people are given free drinks, low cost rooms, etc not because the hotels want to be nice but it is rather inviting for people who want a cheap vacation. Of course, how one comports themselves on the gambling floor could mean the difference between a cheap vacation and running the deed of your house through the credit card machine.
What I like about the Turbine option is that it gets more people in the game, will create incentive for Turbine to make more content, it will a la carte for people who like the game but not enough to pay a sub or for people who just don't have the time to sink into a game and don't need to have all the content available.
The danger is that they could add items that seem a bit overpowered in the store. but as far as buff and xp buffs I can get all that by just playing the game. an armor buff for 45 minutes costs me 3000 destiny points. a rough equivalent in the ddo store is about $1.42 for their highest lvl armor buff though I don't know how long that is.
That is just looking at the 420 points for $6.50
So essentially, players who actively play lOTRO will get buffs like speed buffs, removing bad effects to xp buffs in the course of play regardless of the store.
essentially the Turbine store becomes nothing more than an a la carte method of playing and in some ways might be looked at as "pay as you go".
Take me for my word when I say this: you lost me after the first sentence. I read through some of your post, skimmed here and there, but couldn't find much in relation to the point I was trying to get across. I applaud you for being civil, at the least, which is something that's hard to find in this dicussion. Thank you for that.
To continue, I'd like to discuss your mention of Las Vegas using similar promotion tools as F2A games. The difference between the two is that at no point in time is anyone, anywhere in that city telling you that your experience will be free of charge, that your room, drinks, food, and entertainment will cost you nothing. F2A advertising does exactly that. People like you and I know better. Hell, most gamers that use the internet, despite being MMO'ers or not, are pretty aware that this is bullshit being spread around to garner hits and created accounts. I can't blame a company for trying to make money, but I can blame a company for using false advertising to draw people in, and I can further blame those companies for turning what I consider to be an art form into mouse-wheels, designed to keep people chasing the proverbial, monetized cheese (MMO's in general are becoming more "mouse-wheel", and the problem extends beyond F2A, to be fair, but the mousewheel is definitely in F2A's best interest). False advertisment is lying, and severly damaging to their credibility.
I'm a purest, and not everyone is going to agree with me. It probably seems a bit harsh, but it's true: if we accept F2A with open arms across the board, MMO developers will abandon the P2P model. That's not a good thing for us. People say it gives developers a reason to make those individual pieces of sold content better, but I disagree. A portion of us are already aware that a very, very large majority of F2A games are garbage, as far as mechanics and quality are concerned, and that's all that matters to developers. We've given them an "in" for creating crappy games and making more money than they would off a project that would actually take a serious dedication of time, skill, and resources to create (think "polish" if that helps). Like I already said, people aren't going to agree, but it's a sad fact. They're not going to ramp development innovation just because everyone suddenly has no option but to pay F2A games, no. They're going to continue selling the same sub-quality fare.
(I'd like to mention that I'm not talking about DDO or LotRO, here, in reference to F2A's)
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
I don't think players are anywhere near as confused about F2P and how it works as you try to make it sound. Those of us who hate it get how it works, we still hate it.
It isn't a matter of needing to relax or anything else. When you prefer subscription MMOs (or in my case that's the only type you'll play) and you see big name MMOs switching over, you realize that your hobby is disappearing. For each big name that switches over and is successful from doing so, more will see that and decide they should try it. The only sub based MMOs that are going to be around in a couple years are going to be Indie games.
I have zero desire to play any game where someone can compensate money for time. This isn't because I have an abundance of free time to play either. These days I really don't and in subscription MMOs I'd tend to always be behind the curve, but I have no issue with someone who puts in more time and effort being ahead of me. However as soon as someone can compensate money for time, I'm out. I don't even like companies having a subscription and then selling cosmetic items. I feel the subscription should allow all players equal access to the same items, no matter how mundane the item is.
So for me, I'm not in a panic or thrashing around wildly. I simply won't play f2p/item mall games. It's no different then the fact I will never lease a car, that option just doesn't make sense to me and seems foolish to get involved with. There are people who love to lease cars and they constantly do, it just isn't something I would do.
My only concern is how this industry copies the hell out of each other. So instead of there leveling out with a good mix of subscription only and f2p games, everyone will switch to the new trend for a few years before switching to something else. That is the part I see happening that I don't like. Look at how many games came out trying to copy WoW because it was the big thing, instead of doing their own unique take on an MMO. Now all the companies want to tap into the f2p/item mall crowd, instead of each finding their own place in the MMO world.
Excellent post. I think MMORPG.com should hire this guy to write columns for thier site, not the clearly condescending and myopic OP.
TPTB have been trying to justify nickling and diming consumers since the early days of the free market economy.
It's simple: the gaming companies want to use the F2P model to soak us, the gamers, of every last penny they can get from us. Their maximizing of profits (not "profits," which of course is important to every business entity, but their "maximizing of profits") is now clearly more important to F2P game developers than the quality of their games and the consumer experience. I don't like being treated like that, therefore I won't play a F2P game. Like I said, it's simple.
In the case of lotro in my opinion is it will only make the game stronger as if what they have said is true
The game for paying ppl (and lifers) wont change (if you still pay) VIP = current game + what the future brings.
The new players get a good no limit TASTER of the game (quests up to around lvl 25?) with no pvmp and some litimed instances, yes they can do all epic book quests but no normal quests past bree. So unless they grind mobs they wont get far (wont be fun eather). You wont be able to buy anything that will win you the game (aka no high lvl weapons, armour)
They will love the game (pay for some extras) and then become VIP’s to get the game we know and love.
+ more money for turbine means better game for everyone
It's simple: the gaming companies want to use the F2P model to soak us, the gamers, of every last penny they can get from us. Their maximizing of profits (not "profits," which of course is important to every business entity, but their "maximizing of profits") is now clearly more important to F2P game developers than the quality of their games and the consumer experience. I don't like being treated like that, therefore I won't play a F2P game. Like I said, it's simple.
So the company you work for doesn't try to maximize profits in any way?
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
As I pointed out in another column LOTRO going free to play is not something surprising or revolutionary. This will be the 3rd title Turbine has had to make free to play to keep alive. And it is their 4th failed game. They screwed up Asheron's Call 2 so badly their only option was to outright kill the game.
So can we please stop acting like this is a shocking new trend for Turbine, or worse some brilliant new buisiness strategy, when it is simply business as usual?
3rd title Turbine made free to play? It's the second title they've made F2P, might want to get your own facts straight before "enlightening" the rest of the community. Also LotRo, depending on the source of the info, was anywhere from 4th to 2nd most played Western MMO, doubt they "needed to keep it alive".
DOH! Correct. My apologies. For some reason I kept thinking they had published Anarchy Online as well.
LOTRO doing great as is? Sorry, we will have to have a gentleman's disagreement on that one. I know too many lifers (myself included) that became disenchanted after the last expansion, and keep bitching there is no point logging in because there just isn't much population.
Now with the exception of my little 2 vs 3 snafu, Turbine still doesn't have a great track record. Asheron's Call 2, canceled for lack of subscriptions. D&D Online, nose dived out of the starting gate and languished until they made it free to play. And personally I still don't find the game worth playing even for free. LOTRO, stayed true to the lore and avoided adding many of the features the younger generation of MMO players feel are required to have a good game. Unfortunately by doing this they made LOTRO more of a niche game and failed to draw in a large portion of main streamers. I do agree that LOTRO was the best out of these three games Turbine published but it has been going down hill in population since the last expansion. And honestly it never had that large of a subscription base to start with. Even if it was truly the 4th or 2nd most played MMO after Wow it still had the subscription base of the pre-Wow games. And these days that isn't a lot of money. Turbine's solution? Make LOTRO FTP as well. I feel this is not a brilliant new business strategy, but a desperate attempt to resuscitate a dying game.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I think the majority is relaxed about this. It is just a handful of forum dwellers, the kind of people who post every 5 minutes into a thread and whose names are visible in threads like this 20 times as often as anyone else. It is ok to say your thing. But some people are just obsessed with "being right about doomsaying". It is more a mania than anything else, and it is wise to just ignore their postings. I just learned those handful of maniac posters can't be argued with.
F2P + shop combinations are the future. End of story. So you can be relaxed as I am or go to a emotional tantrum, but it won't change heck, and I am just fed up of some people playing "the gamer's spokesmen", behaving as if they spoke in the interest of "us".
Yes I am looking at you MMO_Doubter.
You can always say, I don't play F2P MMos with shops. But saying your personal preferrence is THE interest of all gamers is just bollocks. Every gamer can speak for himself, and it is pointless to litter every thread with the same critique over and over and over 50 times.
It's simple: the gaming companies want to use the F2P model to soak us, the gamers, of every last penny they can get from us. Their maximizing of profits (not "profits," which of course is important to every business entity, but their "maximizing of profits") is now clearly more important to F2P game developers than the quality of their games and the consumer experience. I don't like being treated like that, therefore I won't play a F2P game. Like I said, it's simple.
So the company you work for doesn't try to maximize profits in any way?
Nope. I work for a state non-profit. Thanks for making my point for me.
And to boot, clearly you don't see the difference between making profits and giving your consumers the best experience you can, and sucking them dry and maximizing profits regardless of the consumer experience. It's because of people like you who fail to recognize this disctincation that game (and other) companies are allowed to walk all over us (the consumers).
MMORPG.com's Justin Webb, a developer who has worked for both F2P and P2P studios, uses his column inches this week to talk about why F2P exists and how it operates as a system.
There was lots of F2P news this week. First, Sony announced a kiddie Star Wars game, and then Turbine decided to make LoTRO free to play. In this article, I’m going to hopefully give some insight into this ever-expanding subgenre, and talk about some things that F2P games “do” and some things that they “don’t” do. In the spirit of full disclosure, before I begin, I should mention that I work for studio that specializes in F2P games and microtransactions. And, conversely, that I’ve also worked for a studio that made subscription-based MMOs. I’ve designed on both sides of the fence. Let’s begin…
F2P seems to be a dirty word in our forums; the mere utterance of which evokes violent palpitations amongst many readers. This is understandable. Compared to subscription-based MMOs, not that many people play them. There is an awful lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there. And many players think they understand how they work, when really they only partially grok the nuances.
"However, in Eastern countries, with Chinabeing a prime example, there’s an additional hurdle to overcome:
(2) It’s almost impossible to sell a game at retail in China.
Piracy is rampant there. You simply just can’t release a game and expect to make any money from box sales. You don’t mosey down to a Gamestop store in Shanghaiand plonk down a stack of RMB when you want to buy a game – you copy it from a friend, or a friend of a friend, instead. This means that publishers can’t get that initial $50 million in sales when they release a game. So, this left Eastern developers in a bit of a quandary. They need that $50 million to pay for the game’s development. How else are they going to turn a profit? The answer: make them free to play … and then use microtransactions to (hopefully) cover costs. This is the main reason for the recent glut of F2P games in the East."
Perhaps you could introduce the fact that no subscription = worthless client, whether legit or pirated to these poor eastern developers who don't seem to have much cognitive reasoning the way you portray them here?
Seriously, you're going to use piracy as a reason they can't have subscription games? Gee, can you tell me how many people are playing subscription games on official servers for free because they pirated the client? lol
I'm sorry, but that was the most glaring piece of hogwash I've seen in a long time, man.
No pay = no key = no subscription = no play. And don't try throwing in "key generators" to save face on this one, as even the most simple server monkey can design the system to use only pre-authorized keys. Otherwise, you'd be able to show me the numbers of people playing subscription games for free on official servers with pirated clients. And since free to play games in the east are through digital download only , they don't need to sell boxes anyway.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
I think the majority is relaxed about this. It is just a handful of forum dwellers, the kind of people who post every 5 minutes into a thread and whose names are visible in threads like this 20 times as often as anyone else. It is ok to say your thing. But some people are just obsessed with "being right about doomsaying". It is more a mania than anything else, and it is wise to just ignore their postings. I just learned those handful of maniac posters can't be argued with.
F2P + shop combinations are the future. End of story. So you can be relaxed as I am or go to a emotional tantrum, but it won't change heck, and I am just fed up of some people playing "the gamer's spokesmen", behaving as if they spoke in the interest of "us".
Yes I am looking at you MMO_Doubter.
You can always say, I don't play F2P MMos with shops. But saying your personal preferrence is THE interest of all gamers is just bollocks. Every gamer can speak for himself, and it is pointless to litter every thread with the same critique over and over and over 50 times.
Whoa, whoa. Wait a second.
As consumers, the only way we're able to change anything is by voicing opinions. While I agree these opinions might not need to be voiced every five minutes, it is our only recourse. We can argue what good this really does, but I have a feeling we'll disagree, likely on principle alone. It's fine that you've accepted the F2A Overlord, many people have, but there are still some of us who would like others to read a post here and there that might make them reconsider their perspective, and some of us really do believe it's for the good of the genre to do so.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Take me for my word when I say this: you lost me after the first sentence. I read through some of your post, skimmed here and there, but couldn't find much in relation to the point I was trying to get across. I applaud you for being civil, at the least, which is something that's hard to find in this dicussion. Thank you for that.
Well the point is that there are games that really don't cost much if anyting to just play.
And depending on the game, you can get to high lvl without payign a dime unless you want to get there with everyone else.
The fifteen dollars you pay to play 2 hours per week could be considered a lot in comparison to someone who plays 2 hours per week but pays nothing.
Unless there is gating to keep someone from high lvl or from content, the f2p games can work out to be "free" as long as you don't mind getting there at a slower rate.
I've played several free to play games where I didn't pay one thin dime. Not a thing. I also didn't expect to be competitive with power players or players who purchased a lot but played simply for my own enjoyment.
So my point is that it is more than possible to play these games for free, that in comparison, monthly fees when you aren't putting in a lot of hours can seem like you are paying more, even if it is only 15 dollars.
Saying they are free to play really means free to access, true.
As long as a player doesn't mind taking a long time to get to top lvl and as long as the game allows for this then one can play without paying.
What the game company is relying upon is that people won't be so patient and won't mind droppign a bit here and a bit there. It's the games that make it too hard for players to rise without spending a lot of money that are the problem games.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I've had my share of pay to win... I mean free to play ~snork~ MMOs. If subscription based MMOs die out, so does my interest in this hobby. Im not ignorant, I've played many ftp games. Never again.
I've re-written this post about 5 times the first of which was 5 pages so you should all thank me for not posting. I've decided I can't really comment as I just don't feel it's possible to convey the sentiment and meaning of my point of view with words alone. Needless to say people need to think about the motives and reality behind this move to f2p at all.
No seriously Bliz, SOE, NC, all of them they agree with you all, they also feel there are just millions and millions of extra mmo players waiting out there for this mew model to come along so they can start playing mmo's and pumping their money out.
See actions for what they are, this isn't about numbers, they are looking to fleece the same people they always have. Only the awsome shortsightedness of so many people has them seeing dollar signs in their sleep.
Even when I try to say nothing I can't.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Take me for my word when I say this: you lost me after the first sentence. I read through some of your post, skimmed here and there, but couldn't find much in relation to the point I was trying to get across. I applaud you for being civil, at the least, which is something that's hard to find in this dicussion. Thank you for that.
Well the point is that there are games that really don't cost much if anyting to just play.
And depending on the game, you can get to high lvl without payign a dime unless you want to get there with everyone else.
The fifteen dollars you pay to play 2 hours per week could be considered a lot in comparison to someone who plays 2 hours per week but pays nothing.
Unless there is gating to keep someone from high lvl or from content, the f2p games can work out to be "free" as long as you don't mind getting there at a slower rate.
I've played several free to play games where I didn't pay one thin dime. Not a thing. I also didn't expect to be competitive with power players or players who purchased a lot but played simply for my own enjoyment.
So my point is that it is more than possible to play these games for free, that in comparison, monthly fees when you aren't putting in a lot of hours can seem like you are paying more, even if it is only 15 dollars.
Saying they are free to play really means free to access, true.
As long as a player doesn't mind taking a long time to get to top lvl and as long as the game allows for this then one can play without paying.
What the game company is relying upon is that people won't be so patient and won't mind droppign a bit here and a bit there. It's the games that make it too hard for players to rise without spending a lot of money that are the problem games.
God, I wish I could discuss these topics with a myriad of users like you. Despite being on opposite sides of the fence, I'm more willing to read and pay attention to what someone has to say when they're decent and respectful of opinions, like you are. Thanks again.
I think your last two sentences are what caught my eye more than anything, though. Those are the very specific titles I'm speaking about, maybe all F2A's games don't do this, but they give enough of a bad name to the others that it leaves a foul taste in my mouth; bad enough to refrain from as many as possible. What I'm scared of is that those bad-apple F2A's are going to take over, because frankly, those sectioned-off, game-mech-created-walls are technically able to charge for more, and thusly make more money than those F2A's who are taking a more cordial and player appreciative approach. As far as developers and studios are concerned, I don't give any of them the benefit of the doubt. They're all looking to screw us out of as much money as possible, as far as I'm concerned, and F2A gives them a great way to charge for the smallest things. Afterall, they wouldn't be looking to jump to another payment model if they weren't trying to entirely maximize their profits, and when the bottom-line is money, creativity and innovation take a back seat.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
He's right guys it's true. Basically there are these new devs out there right and they want you to play their game and like use their bandwidth and they do it because they just love mmo's and they love the people that play mmo's, That's us, man these people are just coolest.
Honestly, you're a nice guy I always read you're posts and you put arguements across politely and well but how deluded does one have to write this without pissing themselves?
I still appreciate the post and would like to reply. I don't take it as an insult if that is the issue.
In no way, shape or form and I implying that game companies are doing this because they love mmo's. I also dont' think any company goes into business just because they love what they do. They want to make a profit.
and "yes' you can play some of these free to play games without spending a cent. I did this with archlord which is the free to play game that I spent the most time in.
However, I also didnt' expect to rise along the same rate as anyone else.
As I've said, these game companies are relying upon the idea that players won't want to push through slower content and that they will want to drop some money. I am not under any illusions regarding that.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
This mentality works fine for a game that starts as F2P - do not like F2P, do not play it. For a game that you have been playing that converts...guess what - you get to complain.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I play a variety of f2p and sub based games, but I really have an issue with the LOTRO move. I have a lifetime sub for LOTRO, and while I normally would be enthused about the move towards f2p, I think they are handling it badly in this case. Making lifetime players cough up additional money for pay-only classes seems like double dipping. I realize it should be the same as buying an expansion, but I don't have to buy an expansion for each character on my account.
I think Lords of Ultima and GuildWars are doing it right. If you don't pay, you don't lose anything that was promised. LOTRO promised, then changed their mind.
In my opinion, the xbox dlc is the best model. You buy a complete game. You can then occasionally buy some extra toys or content. I'm fine with this, and never felt like I was getting ripped off, while with LOTRO, I do.
But then the issue here is that players are trying to "one size fits all" these games. Or, every free to play game is going to be exactly like every other free to play game.
One might argue that if you pay fifteen dollars per month and play only two hours per week that there are games out there where you wouldn't have to pay a dime for those 2 hours per week.
The issue is not whether one has the option to pay for content but whether one needs to pay for content in order to have a chance at playing competitivley.
As the article states, and I agree, the players who don't pay a cent fill up the game world and make it more alive. Whether they are quality people or not is yet another discussion. I don't assume that just because someone can pony up fifteen dollars per month that they are any better than anyone else.
I will assume that some of the people who can't come up with the credit card info might be young and might still be learning how to behave in socieity. But you know, there are people who are 50 years old and don't know how to behave so there it is.
In the end "free to play games" are as much about making money as any other online game. Or business for that matter.
In many ways it's a marketing tool that gets people in the door. Like Las Vegas, people are given free drinks, low cost rooms, etc not because the hotels want to be nice but it is rather inviting for people who want a cheap vacation. Of course, how one comports themselves on the gambling floor could mean the difference between a cheap vacation and running the deed of your house through the credit card machine.
What I like about the Turbine option is that it gets more people in the game, will create incentive for Turbine to make more content, it will a la carte for people who like the game but not enough to pay a sub or for people who just don't have the time to sink into a game and don't need to have all the content available.
The danger is that they could add items that seem a bit overpowered in the store. but as far as buff and xp buffs I can get all that by just playing the game. an armor buff for 45 minutes costs me 3000 destiny points. a rough equivalent in the ddo store is about $1.42 for their highest lvl armor buff though I don't know how long that is.
That is just looking at the 420 points for $6.50
So essentially, players who actively play lOTRO will get buffs like speed buffs, removing bad effects to xp buffs in the course of play regardless of the store.
essentially the Turbine store becomes nothing more than an a la carte method of playing and in some ways might be looked at as "pay as you go".
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Thanks for your kind answer and for some insight in your editorial choices. I'll be waiting for the next articles.
It was a hot day...
My sincere respects again.
Relax ... breathe.
"F2P seems to be a dirty word in our forums; the mere utterance of which evokes violent palpitations amongst many readers."
F2P isn't a dirty word. What it is however is a flag that many peoples have seen change the game significantly. Here's how;
People can buy items for real money and then sell those for in game money to become very wealthy. Oftentimes the items bought for real money have no limit to how many you can buy, can be traded, and cannot be found otherwise in the game. This doesn't just impact the cost of real money items, but also other in game items. The person who wants to sell extremely valuable items wants to sell them for insane amounts of money and will look for people who buy items with real money.
There are often no money sinks. It boils down to the have and the have nots. Do you have disposable income where you can buy lots of stuff, or not? If you don't, then don't expect to succeed. The haves have a position then where there is nothing that they cannot buy and so most in game items are cheap as dirt. Players who buy rl money items can always go to the well and buy more. This ruins the economy.
There is often no auction house. In any economy you want people able to exchange what they need for what they have. It's why ebay is popular. If people whom buy real life money had items in game (common crafting items) that they need to buy, the excess of money is traded for in game items for items that are dirt cheap. It becomes a money sink, especially for items that have random successes. Without an auction house then the money sink occurs very slowly and the economy is often broken. Everyone expects to sell to a rich player. There is no guide to prices based on generic supply and demand. Players must try and sell across districts and zones to lure that right player into buying the item. This means it is easier for players that buy items with real life money, then those who don't in the game.
These are the three biggest problems with F2P games along with developers who get 'greedy' and cut their development staff and content just to make money for their stockholders. The temptation of 'corrupting' a game is much easier when it's F2P. The developers hope for quantity over quality. This is why F2P often is viewed as bad, or dirty, or wrong.
Well... Then you need to pretend that they aren't ^^ Conflict drives page views, and page views drive ad rates. Ad rates allow sites to stay in business and/or expand. MMORPG has been doing a good job of balancing the tension dynamics for years now. F2P is simply one of the current hot button issues that many people feel strongly about. Market trends change over time, and it appears that F2P's time in the western markets is arriving. How that will work out, is anyones guess at this point.
Actually it appears lifetime members got a great deal with Turbine. The only premium classes came out with Moria expansion and all folks even lifetimers have to buy the expansions, so the only reason you would not have access to a class is if you did not buy the expansion. So yes I guess, have a lifetime and want to play those classes you will have to buy the expansions, but that is nothing out of the ordinary. That is standard pay2play operating procedure. Their main boards have a freetoplay group. It has a pretty good faq.
The way I understand it as a lifetime member, you have your subscription covered for as long as the game is open plus 500 pts to spend in the cash shop every month. (same benefit anyone subscribing to the game has) just no monthly bill. Not sure how that is not a great deal.
Take me for my word when I say this: you lost me after the first sentence. I read through some of your post, skimmed here and there, but couldn't find much in relation to the point I was trying to get across. I applaud you for being civil, at the least, which is something that's hard to find in this dicussion. Thank you for that.
To continue, I'd like to discuss your mention of Las Vegas using similar promotion tools as F2A games. The difference between the two is that at no point in time is anyone, anywhere in that city telling you that your experience will be free of charge, that your room, drinks, food, and entertainment will cost you nothing. F2A advertising does exactly that. People like you and I know better. Hell, most gamers that use the internet, despite being MMO'ers or not, are pretty aware that this is bullshit being spread around to garner hits and created accounts. I can't blame a company for trying to make money, but I can blame a company for using false advertising to draw people in, and I can further blame those companies for turning what I consider to be an art form into mouse-wheels, designed to keep people chasing the proverbial, monetized cheese (MMO's in general are becoming more "mouse-wheel", and the problem extends beyond F2A, to be fair, but the mousewheel is definitely in F2A's best interest). False advertisment is lying, and severly damaging to their credibility.
I'm a purest, and not everyone is going to agree with me. It probably seems a bit harsh, but it's true: if we accept F2A with open arms across the board, MMO developers will abandon the P2P model. That's not a good thing for us. People say it gives developers a reason to make those individual pieces of sold content better, but I disagree. A portion of us are already aware that a very, very large majority of F2A games are garbage, as far as mechanics and quality are concerned, and that's all that matters to developers. We've given them an "in" for creating crappy games and making more money than they would off a project that would actually take a serious dedication of time, skill, and resources to create (think "polish" if that helps). Like I already said, people aren't going to agree, but it's a sad fact. They're not going to ramp development innovation just because everyone suddenly has no option but to pay F2A games, no. They're going to continue selling the same sub-quality fare.
(I'd like to mention that I'm not talking about DDO or LotRO, here, in reference to F2A's)
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Excellent post. I think MMORPG.com should hire this guy to write columns for thier site, not the clearly condescending and myopic OP.
TPTB have been trying to justify nickling and diming consumers since the early days of the free market economy.
It's simple: the gaming companies want to use the F2P model to soak us, the gamers, of every last penny they can get from us. Their maximizing of profits (not "profits," which of course is important to every business entity, but their "maximizing of profits") is now clearly more important to F2P game developers than the quality of their games and the consumer experience. I don't like being treated like that, therefore I won't play a F2P game. Like I said, it's simple.
In the case of lotro in my opinion is it will only make the game stronger as if what they have said is true
The game for paying ppl (and lifers) wont change (if you still pay) VIP = current game + what the future brings.
The new players get a good no limit TASTER of the game (quests up to around lvl 25?) with no pvmp and some litimed instances, yes they can do all epic book quests but no normal quests past bree. So unless they grind mobs they wont get far (wont be fun eather). You wont be able to buy anything that will win you the game (aka no high lvl weapons, armour)
They will love the game (pay for some extras) and then become VIP’s to get the game we know and love.
+ more money for turbine means better game for everyone
So the company you work for doesn't try to maximize profits in any way?
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
DOH! Correct. My apologies. For some reason I kept thinking they had published Anarchy Online as well.
LOTRO doing great as is? Sorry, we will have to have a gentleman's disagreement on that one. I know too many lifers (myself included) that became disenchanted after the last expansion, and keep bitching there is no point logging in because there just isn't much population.
Now with the exception of my little 2 vs 3 snafu, Turbine still doesn't have a great track record. Asheron's Call 2, canceled for lack of subscriptions. D&D Online, nose dived out of the starting gate and languished until they made it free to play. And personally I still don't find the game worth playing even for free. LOTRO, stayed true to the lore and avoided adding many of the features the younger generation of MMO players feel are required to have a good game. Unfortunately by doing this they made LOTRO more of a niche game and failed to draw in a large portion of main streamers. I do agree that LOTRO was the best out of these three games Turbine published but it has been going down hill in population since the last expansion. And honestly it never had that large of a subscription base to start with. Even if it was truly the 4th or 2nd most played MMO after Wow it still had the subscription base of the pre-Wow games. And these days that isn't a lot of money. Turbine's solution? Make LOTRO FTP as well. I feel this is not a brilliant new business strategy, but a desperate attempt to resuscitate a dying game.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I think the majority is relaxed about this. It is just a handful of forum dwellers, the kind of people who post every 5 minutes into a thread and whose names are visible in threads like this 20 times as often as anyone else. It is ok to say your thing. But some people are just obsessed with "being right about doomsaying". It is more a mania than anything else, and it is wise to just ignore their postings. I just learned those handful of maniac posters can't be argued with.
F2P + shop combinations are the future. End of story. So you can be relaxed as I am or go to a emotional tantrum, but it won't change heck, and I am just fed up of some people playing "the gamer's spokesmen", behaving as if they spoke in the interest of "us".
Yes I am looking at you MMO_Doubter.
You can always say, I don't play F2P MMos with shops. But saying your personal preferrence is THE interest of all gamers is just bollocks. Every gamer can speak for himself, and it is pointless to litter every thread with the same critique over and over and over 50 times.
Nope. I work for a state non-profit. Thanks for making my point for me.
And to boot, clearly you don't see the difference between making profits and giving your consumers the best experience you can, and sucking them dry and maximizing profits regardless of the consumer experience. It's because of people like you who fail to recognize this disctincation that game (and other) companies are allowed to walk all over us (the consumers).
"However, in Eastern countries, with Chinabeing a prime example, there’s an additional hurdle to overcome:
(2) It’s almost impossible to sell a game at retail in China.
Piracy is rampant there. You simply just can’t release a game and expect to make any money from box sales. You don’t mosey down to a Gamestop store in Shanghaiand plonk down a stack of RMB when you want to buy a game – you copy it from a friend, or a friend of a friend, instead. This means that publishers can’t get that initial $50 million in sales when they release a game. So, this left Eastern developers in a bit of a quandary. They need that $50 million to pay for the game’s development. How else are they going to turn a profit? The answer: make them free to play … and then use microtransactions to (hopefully) cover costs. This is the main reason for the recent glut of F2P games in the East."
Perhaps you could introduce the fact that no subscription = worthless client, whether legit or pirated to these poor eastern developers who don't seem to have much cognitive reasoning the way you portray them here?
Seriously, you're going to use piracy as a reason they can't have subscription games? Gee, can you tell me how many people are playing subscription games on official servers for free because they pirated the client? lol
I'm sorry, but that was the most glaring piece of hogwash I've seen in a long time, man.
No pay = no key = no subscription = no play. And don't try throwing in "key generators" to save face on this one, as even the most simple server monkey can design the system to use only pre-authorized keys. Otherwise, you'd be able to show me the numbers of people playing subscription games for free on official servers with pirated clients. And since free to play games in the east are through digital download only , they don't need to sell boxes anyway.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Whoa, whoa. Wait a second.
As consumers, the only way we're able to change anything is by voicing opinions. While I agree these opinions might not need to be voiced every five minutes, it is our only recourse. We can argue what good this really does, but I have a feeling we'll disagree, likely on principle alone. It's fine that you've accepted the F2A Overlord, many people have, but there are still some of us who would like others to read a post here and there that might make them reconsider their perspective, and some of us really do believe it's for the good of the genre to do so.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Your future, maybe. Not mine.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Well the point is that there are games that really don't cost much if anyting to just play.
And depending on the game, you can get to high lvl without payign a dime unless you want to get there with everyone else.
The fifteen dollars you pay to play 2 hours per week could be considered a lot in comparison to someone who plays 2 hours per week but pays nothing.
Unless there is gating to keep someone from high lvl or from content, the f2p games can work out to be "free" as long as you don't mind getting there at a slower rate.
I've played several free to play games where I didn't pay one thin dime. Not a thing. I also didn't expect to be competitive with power players or players who purchased a lot but played simply for my own enjoyment.
So my point is that it is more than possible to play these games for free, that in comparison, monthly fees when you aren't putting in a lot of hours can seem like you are paying more, even if it is only 15 dollars.
Saying they are free to play really means free to access, true.
As long as a player doesn't mind taking a long time to get to top lvl and as long as the game allows for this then one can play without paying.
What the game company is relying upon is that people won't be so patient and won't mind droppign a bit here and a bit there. It's the games that make it too hard for players to rise without spending a lot of money that are the problem games.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I've had my share of pay to win... I mean free to play ~snork~ MMOs. If subscription based MMOs die out, so does my interest in this hobby. Im not ignorant, I've played many ftp games. Never again.
I've re-written this post about 5 times the first of which was 5 pages so you should all thank me for not posting. I've decided I can't really comment as I just don't feel it's possible to convey the sentiment and meaning of my point of view with words alone. Needless to say people need to think about the motives and reality behind this move to f2p at all.
No seriously Bliz, SOE, NC, all of them they agree with you all, they also feel there are just millions and millions of extra mmo players waiting out there for this mew model to come along so they can start playing mmo's and pumping their money out.
See actions for what they are, this isn't about numbers, they are looking to fleece the same people they always have. Only the awsome shortsightedness of so many people has them seeing dollar signs in their sleep.
Even when I try to say nothing I can't.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
btw where did Doubter go?
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
God, I wish I could discuss these topics with a myriad of users like you. Despite being on opposite sides of the fence, I'm more willing to read and pay attention to what someone has to say when they're decent and respectful of opinions, like you are. Thanks again.
I think your last two sentences are what caught my eye more than anything, though. Those are the very specific titles I'm speaking about, maybe all F2A's games don't do this, but they give enough of a bad name to the others that it leaves a foul taste in my mouth; bad enough to refrain from as many as possible. What I'm scared of is that those bad-apple F2A's are going to take over, because frankly, those sectioned-off, game-mech-created-walls are technically able to charge for more, and thusly make more money than those F2A's who are taking a more cordial and player appreciative approach. As far as developers and studios are concerned, I don't give any of them the benefit of the doubt. They're all looking to screw us out of as much money as possible, as far as I'm concerned, and F2A gives them a great way to charge for the smallest things. Afterall, they wouldn't be looking to jump to another payment model if they weren't trying to entirely maximize their profits, and when the bottom-line is money, creativity and innovation take a back seat.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
He's right guys it's true. Basically there are these new devs out there right and they want you to play their game and like use their bandwidth and they do it because they just love mmo's and they love the people that play mmo's, That's us, man these people are just coolest.
Honestly, you're a nice guy I always read you're posts and you put arguements across politely and well but how deluded does one have to write this without pissing themselves?
I still appreciate the post and would like to reply. I don't take it as an insult if that is the issue.
In no way, shape or form and I implying that game companies are doing this because they love mmo's. I also dont' think any company goes into business just because they love what they do. They want to make a profit.
and "yes' you can play some of these free to play games without spending a cent. I did this with archlord which is the free to play game that I spent the most time in.
However, I also didnt' expect to rise along the same rate as anyone else.
As I've said, these game companies are relying upon the idea that players won't want to push through slower content and that they will want to drop some money. I am not under any illusions regarding that.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo