While going through FFXI, WoW, EVE and a few other subbed MMO's, all I ever used to hear was the massive communities in game or on forums come crashing down on F2P as if they were witch hunting.
I made a plunge 3 years ago to finally try F2P (while still playing my subbed games) to look for myself and see just how the games faired and to test out the waters of everyones accusations.
1). The communities: While not the no. 1 gripe people have, but this does pop up a lot on forums and sub games I play. Many argue that the communities are unstable, ignorant, childish, on and on and on. I found many of these communities to be rather helpful, and more mature than most, no not all, but most of the subbed MMO's I play. Like any P2P or other MMO there was the one person, who would annoy the masses out loud now and then, but then again, thats why there is block lists.
2). Content: I'll agree with everyone on this. F2P games just lack in content. Sure, there are the gems out there with enough to satisfy my wants, but some of those, are not my genre of MMO and I wouldn't last long.
3). The dreaded Item Mall: I was so apprehensive about these, that I never touched them in most of my first year of playing my first F2P. Eventually, I bought a pet to start. After that, it was the odd costume fluff item, few character facial changing items and some consumables such as mana potions and HP potions. It was like this in all the F2P games I had tried. But before anyone QQ's over the fact I bought a stack of 999 potions for MP and HP and most in game stacks are only as high as 20 potions, every F2P game I played, allowed a player to also sell these items in an auction house. You could sell pets in an AH, 999 stacks of potions in an AH, fluffs, costumes etc, etc... I went from spending $20.00 a month/$240.00+ a year on any one MMO (Canadian, so the Amercian $12.99-$14.99 a month turns into nearly $20.00, give or take 30 cents depending on how on par the dollar was, plus exchange rates.) to spending $113.76 in a 3 year period. (Yes an exact number, because I keep track of what I spend on F2P vs Subscription). I even have a drawer in a file cabinet with other receipts tied to gaming.
3). Pay to Win: I love my PvP, and PVE too but Im a PVP lover at heart. I just haven't myself come across this in a F2P MMO just yet. I hear about it everywhere. It's not to say there isn't games out there like this. In todays F2P's, I just haven't come across anyone who forked over the cash for something people claim are unstoppable or "have an advantage" because they paid to beat the snot out of others. If it's bought online its always been sellable in the AH available for everyone from what I have seen.
4). Pk'ing: I still constantly hear people whining Pk'ing in F2P is the worst. Im sorry, but If you make your toon on a server that states, "PK always active" or PVP SERVER or w/e else it may say to state, "if your toon lives here, be prepared" your dead, or will just have to fight. 'Nuff said. Stay on the safe servers. There is no advantages to running around a PVE vs PVP server.
5). "They just want to rip you off": Can't run a game for free. Bandwidth, employees, servers, etc. Money has to come from somewhere. For me, I spent less than half of the money in 3 years playing a F2P MMO, than I did playing a P2P MMO in only one year. Thats just me. I didn't have to have every fluff item and so on. And once you learn to play the AH like any other MMO you end up using your in game currency to purchase the same items many might pay for with real cash. I enjoyed farming in game for most like a lot of my F2P friends, but the other majority of my friends also said screw it, and bought the item through the malls. Special mounts were available as a drop as well as sold online. The drop rate in most games was like .03% i think or less. I would just farm, amount all that in game cash with a smile, and sooner or later BAM, got the drop.
6). F2P ISN'T F2P: Overall, no. It still has its own business model on how to make money. But YES, you can play for free. Heres a little tip some used to throw in my face for something stupid I would always ask. "Do the @%%^%$ research". Just like many of you would tell a nub to RTFM or so on. You can tell looking into a game if your able to get what your after in game or not, through ah, buying from other players etc, etc.. WITHOUT paying real cash. Use the forums, ask questions, and quit being the nub your always insulting.
Overall that was just my experience touching base into a F2P industry.
Many of you will still reserve your convictions on F2P are a blight on gaming, but being on here daily, mostly just reading the posts and taking in the opinions, I can say at least, many of the "haters" Have never even TRIED a F2P. Just because they're assuming on others opinions, and they've stated "Don't like F2P, never touched one, never will).
That was my whole 1.5 cents of babble. I'll still fully stick with subscription MMO's for now though. Content, content, content is what drives me, as well as the option to pursue endgame play. <- Anotherwords.... CONTENT.
Unless a F2P game comes out that fits MY interests, and provides more, I'm not switching 100%, I'll keep it as a secondary casual thing. But I enjoy F2P all the same.
I get that F2P is viable in Eastern markets. In fact you made some good points there. However, I am a western gamer who wants to login to a game where the exact same rules and boundaries apply to everyone. By rules and boundaries, I mean that it takes the same amount of time and effort for every player to achieve results.
I want the guy I am pvping to have spent the same amount of time getting to that point as I have. Despite some who label pvpers as only caring about pwning I want to respect my opponent for what he has accomplished so that a victory is sweeter.
I guess mutual respect is what I see missing from F2P. That's important to me.
I'm sorry, but I'm still not convinced.
you make MMo's sound boring. everyone has to spend the same amount of time doing stuff. why?
But see, there's the rub: Whatever developer wants that "WoW" market in the future has to make a great game. And we all know great games are rare, let alone a great MMORPG. The nickle and dime to play approach lets you put out grinders and make money. But they taint the genre with junk.
This is the whole issue for me. It's what worries me about the F2P genre, and is why I remain steadfast that it's bad for everyone but the companies themselves.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
It's hilarious when people start throwing around phrases like 'real gamer' as if it means anything. Playing a game, any game, makes someone a real gamer just like breathing air makes them a real air-breather.
If there's some kind of approved guidelines that isn't someone's personal opinion I've yet to see it.
If you can't feel the difference between buying something, and winning or earning something, then it can't be explained to you.
You would then have to point out where someone was buying "win" over "winning from playing".
I have to agree with him about the "real gamer" part. I suppose that is just a moniker that carries no weight or value for me but I assume that others enjoy it. To each his own I guess.
As far as the whole "winning as opposed to buying", I believe that is what the article addresses. Also, trancejeremy just posted two slide shows comparing some ideas from a china "free to play" discussion and the Turbine system. It's actually pretty interesting.
The point being, at least in the Turbine system, they state that selling end game items or anything that is "win" is not part of their plan. Since this slide show seems to be aimed at another audience other than gamers (developers? Business partners?) It seems that it is stated not to appease any gamers but to inform another type of audience that would be interested in their model.
The problem I have with the whole f2p/p2p discussion is that people say they are thinking but I see a lot of knee jerk reactions and histrionics.
As consumers we are faced with the problem that any business/commodity that we come in contact with will be trying to sell us value for money and also trying to make a profit.
It is our duty to examine what we are getting for our money and make a decision whether is worth it or not.
I too have wondered about the whole "selling uber items/selling items for win" statement that I see because I actually have never seen anything that I could buy that could outright make me win. I suppose I could turn to a 2nd party and purchase gold as that would surely allow me some measure of "win". And people do that which is why this is big business.
but I've never seen anything in a game cash shop that could suddenly make me uber.
the interesting thing is that the west could of started off with an a la carte system and years later if someone instituted a sub system I could easily imagine players getting all up in arms saying things like "pay systems allow the developers to be lazy as they dont' have to keep developing new content and they also charge me for time I am not using".
Of course the answer would be, well judge it as it comes and make the decioins whether or not good value for money is being offered.
In then end, whether it's games or cable TV or a pakcaged vacation trip, we always have to be weighing that value.
So just because something has the "f2p" moniker doesn't automatically make it evil. If it is abused then "think" and move on. It's just another method of payment.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think it's more that we don't want a coin-operated car.
Except that your car IS coin-operated. You don't just buy a car on the lot and have it run like new forever. Car owners easily get nickel and dimed every month in order to keep their car going-- gas, insurance, maintenance, etc.
Some people can afford nicer cars than others, and can afford better insurance packages, and higher quality maintenance. Others have to stick to what they can afford because it gets them where they need to go, and it gets the job done.
I'll repeat what i said in the LOTRO thread again.
If you think the players at the top of the PTP games aren't spending as much or more with their wallets to stay at the top, as players in FTP's, then you're deluding yourselves.
I personally prefer PTP's, but after seeing how many thousands of dollars players are willing to spend to "be the best", i've lost faith. It's time vs. reward for them and they don't care about which payment model it is.
It's up to the devs to come up with game mechanics to discourage this in both models. Limited cash shops with no gear in FTP's and a way for PTP players to be unable to sell gear that isn't crafted.
You're first mistake Justin is that you are assuming that we don't know nothing about f2p. I played in these games because I was oblivious at the time and the free part got me. I even payed in one. There are peoples who like these type of gameplays, I just don't. So don't think that we hate f2p because we don't know nothing about it. I know how these games work that's why I hate it. It's more about the money than it is about the game. The perfect example is this forum, a game forum where 80% of the posts are about the $$. In every part of the game I was thinking about the money to spend.
Except that your car IS coin-operated. You don't just buy a car on the lot and have it run like new forever. Car owners easily get nickel and dimed every month in order to keep their car going-- gas, insurance, maintenance, etc.
That's not coin-operated, that's a subscription fee.
Coin-operated is "insert 50c for a turn signal", "inesrt $2 to apply the brakes", etc.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
So just because something has the "f2p" moniker doesn't automatically make it evil. If it is abused then "think" and move on. It's just another method of payment.
QFT
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
I'll repeat what i said in the LOTRO thread again.
If you think the players at the top of the PTP games aren't spending as much or more with their wallets to stay at the top, as players in FTP's, then you're deluding yourselves.
How much does it cost to kill Arthas?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
So just because something has the "f2p" moniker doesn't automatically make it evil. If it is abused then "think" and move on. It's just another method of payment.
It is a completely different economic system that motivates the devs to sell more items, rather than make the game better.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I think it's more that we don't want a coin-operated car.
Except that your car IS coin-operated. You don't just buy a car on the lot and have it run like new forever. Car owners easily get nickel and dimed every month in order to keep their car going-- gas, insurance, maintenance, etc.
Some people can afford nicer cars than others, and can afford better insurance packages, and higher quality maintenance. Others have to stick to what they can afford because it gets them where they need to go, and it gets the job done.
EXACTLY!!!!
Which is why I say that some players are not thinking. They are not taking information and making decisions based on that information but imbuing it with all sorts of baggage and reactign on an emotional response.
I had a coworker try to convince me that I should get a car so that my commute to my job would be easier and that I wouldn't have to look for another job closer to where I lived. he said it would make my life better.
I then had to break it down to where he could understand that getting a car would then tack on gas, insurance, repairs, ocassional tickets as I live in the boston area and they love to tickt, shovelign the car out each winter in order to use it, paying for parking, etc.
so suddenly this item that is supposed to make my life easier has also brouth with it tons of expenses and added work that I never had.
Can the f2p model be abused? yes. But a lot of businesses try to nickel and dime you with all sorts of things. It's our duty as consumers to recognize the good companies from the bad and avoid the bad companies.
And once again, I'll bring up cable tv. You used to pay a sub and get everything for that subscription. Now there are all sorts of add ons, pay per view, pay for special events, etc.
Yet I rarely see anyone outriaged over this.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So just because something has the "f2p" moniker doesn't automatically make it evil. If it is abused then "think" and move on. It's just another method of payment.
It is a completely different economic system that motivates the devs to sell more items, rather than make the game better.
Or it's an economic system that encourages the development of content over the complacency encouraged by P2P systems :-)
So just because something has the "f2p" moniker doesn't automatically make it evil. If it is abused then "think" and move on. It's just another method of payment.
It is a completely different economic system that motivates the devs to sell more items, rather than make the game better.
Or when looked at in a glass half full way:
It is a completely different economic system that motivates the devs to add more compelling content to make the game better so that players will purchase. and keep playing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
So just because something has the "f2p" moniker doesn't automatically make it evil. If it is abused then "think" and move on. It's just another method of payment.
It is a completely different economic system that motivates the devs to sell more items, rather than make the game better.
Or it's an economic system that encourages the development of content over the complacency encouraged by P2P systems :-)
LOL! you beat me to it! I owe you a coke.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Except that your car IS coin-operated. You don't just buy a car on the lot and have it run like new forever. Car owners easily get nickel and dimed every month in order to keep their car going-- gas, insurance, maintenance, etc.
That's not coin-operated, that's a subscription fee.
Coin-operated is "insert 50c for a turn signal", "inesrt $2 to apply the brakes", etc.
Based on my experiences, I must disagree as you are assuming that you have to buy necessities in order to play a F2P game. In F2P games (my experience) everything you "need" is provided so, based on your example: The pickup that I bought and pay to keep on the road is like a Sub game. However, when I put slimmed mirrors on it, a bug deflector, Euro lights, lopro tires, 800watt stereo system, ect., THAT is the F2P analogy. I didn't need any of it, but it makes me stand out and, overall, enhances my experience.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
I don't think players are anywhere near as confused about F2P and how it works as you try to make it sound. Those of us who hate it get how it works, we still hate it.
It isn't a matter of needing to relax or anything else. When you prefer subscription MMOs (or in my case that's the only type you'll play) and you see big name MMOs switching over, you realize that your hobby is disappearing.
This is how I feel exactly.
It is not like I have never tried a f2p MMO before or paid for items in a cash shop. It is just that I soundly reject the idea of f2p unfairness after coming to understnad what it means to pay to win. Cash shops are like the difference between going out to play a sport and earning a trophy verses going to a trophy dealer and buying one. The trophies may look the same hanging on your wall but they clearly represent two different realities. One is legit the other is not. But when the industry as a whole decides the two are the same then the MMO industry is dead to me.
I have zero desire to play any game where someone can compensate money for time. This isn't because I have an abundance of free time to play either. These days I really don't and in subscription MMOs I'd tend to always be behind the curve, but I have no issue with someone who puts in more time and effort being ahead of me. However as soon as someone can compensate money for time, I'm out. I don't even like companies having a subscription and then selling cosmetic items. I feel the subscription should allow all players equal access to the same items, no matter how mundane the item is.
Greetings!
First off, I agree with you in principle. I am not a fan of F2P but that may be because I had the experence of the 'first generation' games (as Justin labeled them) where you could buy uberness.
If, as he suggests, the next gen games don't allow that but allow you to 'catch-up', then I don't see a problem and you're argument breaks down. As a person without a lot of time, the P2P only option effectlvely means you are paying for game time that you are not using. Wouldn't that sub money be better served if you used it in the item store to "keep up" with your friends rather than being behind all the time?
You're still behind anyway as you don't get the uber drops your friends get but, at least you can die with them rather than bidding good luck as they go into an instance you don't qualify for.
As for P2P games with item stores, I really lose it! I feel like they're double dipping and breaking the implied contract I signed up for, namely, if I pay a sub, I'll get all the content I care to find or work for. With the added store items, this is no longer the case. I'm one of the 6 people who quit WoW over it! :-P
Some F2P models are not cash crops for companies. Look at Anet's successful Guild Wars Series. You buy the game and thats it...no monthly fees ever. They do have a game store that offers, cosmetic only costumes, inventory upgrades, character renames and cosmetic changes...but its whats absent from the GW shop thats really worth mentioning. There are NO potions, NO best weapons..NO uber armor, NO special available through cash shop only game altering Anything. You want max armor..you earn ingame money to buy it...you want elite armor..earn ingame money and the materials and get it. What the best sword the game offers? Well either get the parts and custom build yourself one , kill the boss taht drops it till you get it..or buy it off another player. Need a buff that reduces critial damage to your party....easy...earn the rep needed to access the consumables crafters in eye of the north, pay them in ingame money and items..and its yours..and guess what..the game is STILL Free to Play!
So yes while I agree that most F2P models out there are nothing more than ways to suck more money from players Some are not. I read somewhere that the average player whom plays F2P spends an average of $25 per month on cash shop items like potions and buffs. So yeah I expect more subscription MMO to go to that model cause it brings in more than subscriptions...BUT...lets remember..not all F2P models are alilke. YOU the gamer have the ultimate decsion on if the game holds your interest enough to shop that cash shop or not.
Me personally....I will stick with GW and the one F2P I do like...and continue to limit myself to no more than 10 a month in that ones shop
As for P2P games with item stores, I really lose it! I feel like they're double dipping and breaking the implied contract I signed up for, namely, if I pay a sub, I'll get all the content I care to find or work for. With the added store items, this is no longer the case. I'm one of the 6 people who quit WoW over it! :-P
Oh, I'm sure there are more than six of us.
I saw very few of my old friends online after that pet store opened.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
So just because something has the "f2p" moniker doesn't automatically make it evil. If it is abused then "think" and move on. It's just another method of payment.
It is a completely different economic system that motivates the devs to sell more items, rather than make the game better.
Or when looked at in a glass half full way:
It is a completely different economic system that motivates the devs to add more compelling content to make the game better so that players will purchase. and keep playing.
But they don't make their money from the game alone. Yes, a nice game (good for f2p) is needed but to make money this game should absolutely make you want to spend cash in cs. While for a p2p the quality of the game is what makes money, for a f2p is how much a player needs cs.
I'll repeat what i said in the LOTRO thread again.
If you think the players at the top of the PTP games aren't spending as much or more with their wallets to stay at the top, as players in FTP's, then you're deluding yourselves.
How much does it cost to kill Arthas?
WoW is the exception to the rule to a certain degree. Guilds do sell those drops also do they not?
In games where currency/gold is actually an important part of the economy, you see it happen more.
I have zero desire to play any game where someone can compensate money for time. This isn't because I have an abundance of free time to play either. These days I really don't and in subscription MMOs I'd tend to always be behind the curve, but I have no issue with someone who puts in more time and effort being ahead of me. However as soon as someone can compensate money for time, I'm out. I don't even like companies having a subscription and then selling cosmetic items. I feel the subscription should allow all players equal access to the same items, no matter how mundane the item is.
Greetings!
First off, I agree with you in principle. I am not a fan of F2P but that may be because I had the experence of the 'first generation' games (as Justin labeled them) where you could buy uberness.
If, as he suggests, the next gen games don't allow that but allow you to 'catch-up', then I don't see a problem and you're argument breaks down. As a person without a lot of time, the P2P only option effectlvely means you are paying for game time that you are not using. Wouldn't that sub money be better served if you used it in the item store to "keep up" with your friends rather than being behind all the time?
You're still behind anyway as you don't get the uber drops your friends get but, at least you can die with them rather than bidding good luck as they go into an instance you don't qualify for.
As for P2P games with item stores, I really lose it! I feel like they're double dipping and breaking the implied contract I signed up for, namely, if I pay a sub, I'll get all the content I care to find or work for. With the added store items, this is no longer the case. I'm one of the 6 people who quit WoW over it! :-P
For what it's worth: I endorse this statement. I didn't quit WoW because of the sparklepony (already was on hiatus), but I don't see myself giving in to double-dipping either. I really like the mini-KT pet, but couldn't bring myself to pay above and beyond my sub. Same with STO. Cash shop didn't drive me away, but I'm not going to spend anymore than I already have on the game.
Sub or shop, my money only goes one way.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
I have zero desire to play any game where someone can compensate money for time. This isn't because I have an abundance of free time to play either. These days I really don't and in subscription MMOs I'd tend to always be behind the curve, but I have no issue with someone who puts in more time and effort being ahead of me. However as soon as someone can compensate money for time, I'm out. I don't even like companies having a subscription and then selling cosmetic items. I feel the subscription should allow all players equal access to the same items, no matter how mundane the item is.
Greetings!
First off, I agree with you in principle. I am not a fan of F2P but that may be because I had the experence of the 'first generation' games (as Justin labeled them) where you could buy uberness.
If, as he suggests, the next gen games don't allow that but allow you to 'catch-up', then I don't see a problem and you're argument breaks down. As a person without a lot of time, the P2P only option effectlvely means you are paying for game time that you are not using. Wouldn't that sub money be better served if you used it in the item store to "keep up" with your friends rather than being behind all the time?
You're still behind anyway as you don't get the uber drops your friends get but, at least you can die with them rather than bidding good luck as they go into an instance you don't qualify for.
As for P2P games with item stores, I really lose it! I feel like they're double dipping and breaking the implied contract I signed up for, namely, if I pay a sub, I'll get all the content I care to find or work for. With the added store items, this is no longer the case. I'm one of the 6 people who quit WoW over it! :-P
That line of logic is abundant yet so incredibly flawed. People have this strange mindset that in order to get their "$15 worth" out of an MMO, they have to play it for hours everyday.
A movie costs $10-11 (if it's not in 3D of IMAX). That is for 1-1/2 to 2 hours of entertainment. So if I get 3 hours of entertainment out of my MMO a month, I've made my $15 worth of it. If I play 16 hours a month, I have far exceeded my $15 worth.
So in fact I ALWAYS get my $15 worth from an MMO. And no I don't ever EVER want to by items from a shop to "keep up". I'm not trying to, nor do I care to keep up with someone who puts in more time then me, and anyone who does has a warped sense of what matters in the world.
Not to mention MMOs are so easy now a days that even with casual play time you can max out your characters in a month. So there is no hurry to catch up with people.
So I don't agree with any of your logic except for the last paragraph which is spot on. I don't play MMOs that have a sub and an item shop, no matter how cosmetic those items are.
Comments
While going through FFXI, WoW, EVE and a few other subbed MMO's, all I ever used to hear was the massive communities in game or on forums come crashing down on F2P as if they were witch hunting.
I made a plunge 3 years ago to finally try F2P (while still playing my subbed games) to look for myself and see just how the games faired and to test out the waters of everyones accusations.
1). The communities: While not the no. 1 gripe people have, but this does pop up a lot on forums and sub games I play. Many argue that the communities are unstable, ignorant, childish, on and on and on. I found many of these communities to be rather helpful, and more mature than most, no not all, but most of the subbed MMO's I play. Like any P2P or other MMO there was the one person, who would annoy the masses out loud now and then, but then again, thats why there is block lists.
2). Content: I'll agree with everyone on this. F2P games just lack in content. Sure, there are the gems out there with enough to satisfy my wants, but some of those, are not my genre of MMO and I wouldn't last long.
3). The dreaded Item Mall: I was so apprehensive about these, that I never touched them in most of my first year of playing my first F2P. Eventually, I bought a pet to start. After that, it was the odd costume fluff item, few character facial changing items and some consumables such as mana potions and HP potions. It was like this in all the F2P games I had tried. But before anyone QQ's over the fact I bought a stack of 999 potions for MP and HP and most in game stacks are only as high as 20 potions, every F2P game I played, allowed a player to also sell these items in an auction house. You could sell pets in an AH, 999 stacks of potions in an AH, fluffs, costumes etc, etc... I went from spending $20.00 a month/$240.00+ a year on any one MMO (Canadian, so the Amercian $12.99-$14.99 a month turns into nearly $20.00, give or take 30 cents depending on how on par the dollar was, plus exchange rates.) to spending $113.76 in a 3 year period. (Yes an exact number, because I keep track of what I spend on F2P vs Subscription). I even have a drawer in a file cabinet with other receipts tied to gaming.
3). Pay to Win: I love my PvP, and PVE too but Im a PVP lover at heart. I just haven't myself come across this in a F2P MMO just yet. I hear about it everywhere. It's not to say there isn't games out there like this. In todays F2P's, I just haven't come across anyone who forked over the cash for something people claim are unstoppable or "have an advantage" because they paid to beat the snot out of others. If it's bought online its always been sellable in the AH available for everyone from what I have seen.
4). Pk'ing: I still constantly hear people whining Pk'ing in F2P is the worst. Im sorry, but If you make your toon on a server that states, "PK always active" or PVP SERVER or w/e else it may say to state, "if your toon lives here, be prepared" your dead, or will just have to fight. 'Nuff said. Stay on the safe servers. There is no advantages to running around a PVE vs PVP server.
5). "They just want to rip you off": Can't run a game for free. Bandwidth, employees, servers, etc. Money has to come from somewhere. For me, I spent less than half of the money in 3 years playing a F2P MMO, than I did playing a P2P MMO in only one year. Thats just me. I didn't have to have every fluff item and so on. And once you learn to play the AH like any other MMO you end up using your in game currency to purchase the same items many might pay for with real cash. I enjoyed farming in game for most like a lot of my F2P friends, but the other majority of my friends also said screw it, and bought the item through the malls. Special mounts were available as a drop as well as sold online. The drop rate in most games was like .03% i think or less. I would just farm, amount all that in game cash with a smile, and sooner or later BAM, got the drop.
6). F2P ISN'T F2P: Overall, no. It still has its own business model on how to make money. But YES, you can play for free. Heres a little tip some used to throw in my face for something stupid I would always ask. "Do the @%%^%$ research". Just like many of you would tell a nub to RTFM or so on. You can tell looking into a game if your able to get what your after in game or not, through ah, buying from other players etc, etc.. WITHOUT paying real cash. Use the forums, ask questions, and quit being the nub your always insulting.
Overall that was just my experience touching base into a F2P industry.
Many of you will still reserve your convictions on F2P are a blight on gaming, but being on here daily, mostly just reading the posts and taking in the opinions, I can say at least, many of the "haters" Have never even TRIED a F2P. Just because they're assuming on others opinions, and they've stated "Don't like F2P, never touched one, never will).
That was my whole 1.5 cents of babble. I'll still fully stick with subscription MMO's for now though. Content, content, content is what drives me, as well as the option to pursue endgame play. <- Anotherwords.... CONTENT.
Unless a F2P game comes out that fits MY interests, and provides more, I'm not switching 100%, I'll keep it as a secondary casual thing. But I enjoy F2P all the same.
you make MMo's sound boring. everyone has to spend the same amount of time doing stuff. why?
This is the whole issue for me. It's what worries me about the F2P genre, and is why I remain steadfast that it's bad for everyone but the companies themselves.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
You would then have to point out where someone was buying "win" over "winning from playing".
I have to agree with him about the "real gamer" part. I suppose that is just a moniker that carries no weight or value for me but I assume that others enjoy it. To each his own I guess.
As far as the whole "winning as opposed to buying", I believe that is what the article addresses. Also, trancejeremy just posted two slide shows comparing some ideas from a china "free to play" discussion and the Turbine system. It's actually pretty interesting.
The point being, at least in the Turbine system, they state that selling end game items or anything that is "win" is not part of their plan. Since this slide show seems to be aimed at another audience other than gamers (developers? Business partners?) It seems that it is stated not to appease any gamers but to inform another type of audience that would be interested in their model.
The problem I have with the whole f2p/p2p discussion is that people say they are thinking but I see a lot of knee jerk reactions and histrionics.
As consumers we are faced with the problem that any business/commodity that we come in contact with will be trying to sell us value for money and also trying to make a profit.
It is our duty to examine what we are getting for our money and make a decision whether is worth it or not.
I too have wondered about the whole "selling uber items/selling items for win" statement that I see because I actually have never seen anything that I could buy that could outright make me win. I suppose I could turn to a 2nd party and purchase gold as that would surely allow me some measure of "win". And people do that which is why this is big business.
but I've never seen anything in a game cash shop that could suddenly make me uber.
the interesting thing is that the west could of started off with an a la carte system and years later if someone instituted a sub system I could easily imagine players getting all up in arms saying things like "pay systems allow the developers to be lazy as they dont' have to keep developing new content and they also charge me for time I am not using".
Of course the answer would be, well judge it as it comes and make the decioins whether or not good value for money is being offered.
In then end, whether it's games or cable TV or a pakcaged vacation trip, we always have to be weighing that value.
So just because something has the "f2p" moniker doesn't automatically make it evil. If it is abused then "think" and move on. It's just another method of payment.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Except that your car IS coin-operated. You don't just buy a car on the lot and have it run like new forever. Car owners easily get nickel and dimed every month in order to keep their car going-- gas, insurance, maintenance, etc.
Some people can afford nicer cars than others, and can afford better insurance packages, and higher quality maintenance. Others have to stick to what they can afford because it gets them where they need to go, and it gets the job done.
I'll repeat what i said in the LOTRO thread again.
If you think the players at the top of the PTP games aren't spending as much or more with their wallets to stay at the top, as players in FTP's, then you're deluding yourselves.
I personally prefer PTP's, but after seeing how many thousands of dollars players are willing to spend to "be the best", i've lost faith. It's time vs. reward for them and they don't care about which payment model it is.
It's up to the devs to come up with game mechanics to discourage this in both models. Limited cash shops with no gear in FTP's and a way for PTP players to be unable to sell gear that isn't crafted.
You're first mistake Justin is that you are assuming that we don't know nothing about f2p. I played in these games because I was oblivious at the time and the free part got me. I even payed in one. There are peoples who like these type of gameplays, I just don't. So don't think that we hate f2p because we don't know nothing about it. I know how these games work that's why I hate it. It's more about the money than it is about the game. The perfect example is this forum, a game forum where 80% of the posts are about the $$. In every part of the game I was thinking about the money to spend.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
QFT
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
It is a completely different economic system that motivates the devs to sell more items, rather than make the game better.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
EXACTLY!!!!
Which is why I say that some players are not thinking. They are not taking information and making decisions based on that information but imbuing it with all sorts of baggage and reactign on an emotional response.
I had a coworker try to convince me that I should get a car so that my commute to my job would be easier and that I wouldn't have to look for another job closer to where I lived. he said it would make my life better.
I then had to break it down to where he could understand that getting a car would then tack on gas, insurance, repairs, ocassional tickets as I live in the boston area and they love to tickt, shovelign the car out each winter in order to use it, paying for parking, etc.
so suddenly this item that is supposed to make my life easier has also brouth with it tons of expenses and added work that I never had.
Can the f2p model be abused? yes. But a lot of businesses try to nickel and dime you with all sorts of things. It's our duty as consumers to recognize the good companies from the bad and avoid the bad companies.
And once again, I'll bring up cable tv. You used to pay a sub and get everything for that subscription. Now there are all sorts of add ons, pay per view, pay for special events, etc.
Yet I rarely see anyone outriaged over this.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Or it's an economic system that encourages the development of content over the complacency encouraged by P2P systems :-)
http://www.themmoquest.com - MMO commentary from an overly angry brit. OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED!
Or when looked at in a glass half full way:
It is a completely different economic system that motivates the devs to add more compelling content to make the game better so that players will purchase. and keep playing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
LOL! you beat me to it! I owe you a coke.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Oh and Jon - do you think you could get your columnists to proof read their work? Or at least hire a better Editor :-) Oh... wait...
http://www.themmoquest.com - MMO commentary from an overly angry brit. OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED!
Based on my experiences, I must disagree as you are assuming that you have to buy necessities in order to play a F2P game. In F2P games (my experience) everything you "need" is provided so, based on your example: The pickup that I bought and pay to keep on the road is like a Sub game. However, when I put slimmed mirrors on it, a bug deflector, Euro lights, lopro tires, 800watt stereo system, ect., THAT is the F2P analogy. I didn't need any of it, but it makes me stand out and, overall, enhances my experience.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
This is how I feel exactly.
It is not like I have never tried a f2p MMO before or paid for items in a cash shop. It is just that I soundly reject the idea of f2p unfairness after coming to understnad what it means to pay to win. Cash shops are like the difference between going out to play a sport and earning a trophy verses going to a trophy dealer and buying one. The trophies may look the same hanging on your wall but they clearly represent two different realities. One is legit the other is not. But when the industry as a whole decides the two are the same then the MMO industry is dead to me.
Greetings!
First off, I agree with you in principle. I am not a fan of F2P but that may be because I had the experence of the 'first generation' games (as Justin labeled them) where you could buy uberness.
If, as he suggests, the next gen games don't allow that but allow you to 'catch-up', then I don't see a problem and you're argument breaks down. As a person without a lot of time, the P2P only option effectlvely means you are paying for game time that you are not using. Wouldn't that sub money be better served if you used it in the item store to "keep up" with your friends rather than being behind all the time?
You're still behind anyway as you don't get the uber drops your friends get but, at least you can die with them rather than bidding good luck as they go into an instance you don't qualify for.
As for P2P games with item stores, I really lose it! I feel like they're double dipping and breaking the implied contract I signed up for, namely, if I pay a sub, I'll get all the content I care to find or work for. With the added store items, this is no longer the case. I'm one of the 6 people who quit WoW over it! :-P
-=[ Gaidin ]=-
Some F2P models are not cash crops for companies. Look at Anet's successful Guild Wars Series. You buy the game and thats it...no monthly fees ever. They do have a game store that offers, cosmetic only costumes, inventory upgrades, character renames and cosmetic changes...but its whats absent from the GW shop thats really worth mentioning. There are NO potions, NO best weapons..NO uber armor, NO special available through cash shop only game altering Anything. You want max armor..you earn ingame money to buy it...you want elite armor..earn ingame money and the materials and get it. What the best sword the game offers? Well either get the parts and custom build yourself one , kill the boss taht drops it till you get it..or buy it off another player. Need a buff that reduces critial damage to your party....easy...earn the rep needed to access the consumables crafters in eye of the north, pay them in ingame money and items..and its yours..and guess what..the game is STILL Free to Play!
So yes while I agree that most F2P models out there are nothing more than ways to suck more money from players Some are not. I read somewhere that the average player whom plays F2P spends an average of $25 per month on cash shop items like potions and buffs. So yeah I expect more subscription MMO to go to that model cause it brings in more than subscriptions...BUT...lets remember..not all F2P models are alilke. YOU the gamer have the ultimate decsion on if the game holds your interest enough to shop that cash shop or not.
Me personally....I will stick with GW and the one F2P I do like...and continue to limit myself to no more than 10 a month in that ones shop
Oh, I'm sure there are more than six of us.
I saw very few of my old friends online after that pet store opened.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
But they don't make their money from the game alone. Yes, a nice game (good for f2p) is needed but to make money this game should absolutely make you want to spend cash in cs. While for a p2p the quality of the game is what makes money, for a f2p is how much a player needs cs.
WoW is the exception to the rule to a certain degree. Guilds do sell those drops also do they not?
In games where currency/gold is actually an important part of the economy, you see it happen more.
For what it's worth: I endorse this statement. I didn't quit WoW because of the sparklepony (already was on hiatus), but I don't see myself giving in to double-dipping either. I really like the mini-KT pet, but couldn't bring myself to pay above and beyond my sub. Same with STO. Cash shop didn't drive me away, but I'm not going to spend anymore than I already have on the game.
Sub or shop, my money only goes one way.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
That line of logic is abundant yet so incredibly flawed. People have this strange mindset that in order to get their "$15 worth" out of an MMO, they have to play it for hours everyday.
A movie costs $10-11 (if it's not in 3D of IMAX). That is for 1-1/2 to 2 hours of entertainment. So if I get 3 hours of entertainment out of my MMO a month, I've made my $15 worth of it. If I play 16 hours a month, I have far exceeded my $15 worth.
So in fact I ALWAYS get my $15 worth from an MMO. And no I don't ever EVER want to by items from a shop to "keep up". I'm not trying to, nor do I care to keep up with someone who puts in more time then me, and anyone who does has a warped sense of what matters in the world.
Not to mention MMOs are so easy now a days that even with casual play time you can max out your characters in a month. So there is no hurry to catch up with people.
So I don't agree with any of your logic except for the last paragraph which is spot on. I don't play MMOs that have a sub and an item shop, no matter how cosmetic those items are.