While I understand you are annoyed that someone might feel your site is using its blogs to promote the games that buy ad space here, it doesn't really sit well with me that you would "Attack" the people who ultimately come here and spend their time perusing these forums because they genuinely like the content here. "I wish I was as smart as you" What kind of snarky bs is that? Is this what I can expect from the managing editor of this website from now on? I am really amazed at your lack of tact and your apparent inability to be diplomatic or mature.
You're right, I did go too far at the end of the post and for that I apologize and have been spoken to internally by our Community Manager.
It is very difficult to come to work every day and to be accused of being unethical in your business practices when you work very hard not to be. it is very difficult to come to work day in and day out and have the same person make the same accusations that you have done your best in the past to politely expain in as open and honest a way as possible.
That's not an excuse. It's true that lashing out is never the answer, and I was wrong to do so. I'll admit that.
My probelm with cash shops is not the items they can offer but that most of the time that type of games are far far more expensive then those only with subscription. It's always so tempting to buy all those 'meaningless' things (you know, character slots, quests, bag slots, special mounts - not really game braking things) yet they're making the gameplay so much nicer.
There are very few businesses that run and don't expect to make money. the few that do run and don't expect to make money at least expect to make enough to break even. Of course, one can't do much if one is always breaking even other than stay in business and do what you have always done.
For the most part, free to play is exactly that "free to play". But what it also does is "pay to have a better experience".
It can essentially be like "one more quarter in the slot machine" before I do other things.
the issue is whether or not the game will make it so that there is no other option other than to pay in order to get anythhign out of the game. Short of a few wealthy individuals or a few players who have dedicated their lives to one game (for whatever reason) most people will just move on.
So that's the bad.
The good is that the developers have an incentive to keep content coming. How many of us have played games where we felt that we had done everything and were waiting months and months for something new? The smart developer can use this as a way to keep the game vibrant and interesting and keep the content coming. The question is whether or not they can find that sweet spot between constant fresh content and nickel and diming their customers for every square foot that they take.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
And then: I'm really wondering what's about all this sort of pro-F2P viral marketing that MMORPG.com is putting up with ever growing enthusiasm. Party Line now is that F2P is beautiful and players are to be indoctrinated for their own sake. This trend is getting more and more annoying. I can read and understand pro-F2P players' ideas even if I don't agree with them but there isn't a day by now that this site send us a F2P Prophet trying to enlighten the ignorant masses (we poor sobs) on the progressive destiny at our doorsteps with the final advent of F2P.
So what's up ? I start seeing the cooked meat beyond your smoke and it smells something unethical for a journalist.
I claim the right to think with my own head and have my own ideas. F2P is unfair and prone to all forms of abuse and money-milking by greedy suits and incompetent developers. And no brain-washing will have me think otherwise.
No one, and I mean no one is telling you that you HAVE TO like F2P MMOs. I'm the one making the decisions about what gets published here and I pesonally don't play F2P MMOs with any regularity. I personally prefer the subscription model. HOwever, it would be completely irresponsible of us to bury our heads in the sand about the issue. Like it or not, F2P is a growing part of the MMORPG industry. That's just how it is. It's also a hot-button issue, so OF COURSE we write about it.
Articles like this one aren't mean to convert P2P players tio the F2P model, this one in particular is here to give an inside explanation of what the F2P model is, and WHY it's growing in popularity.
Look at articles on this site, and anywhere else, for that matter, not as the gospel, but as more information to add to your knowledge. You're free to agree or disagree with any of it. We're not here to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't think. Anyone who mindlessly listens to ANY media in this day and age without adding their own context is in serious trouble.
Then offer us some good bit of "informative" journalism: articles with the pros and cons of various systems. Different views of the incoming future from the insides of the industry. Alternatives, options and viewpoints from different heads with different ideas, however unconventional or unheard-of. Something, that is, that MMORPG.com has been doing exceptioanlly well and with balanced wisdom for quite some time and that, for this damned-f2p-thing, you've been putting aside delivering us a single-minded, incessant propaganda. I think Mmorpg crossed a line here.
I'm a fan of yours, Jon, not a griefer or a conspiracy theorist and no one, now, is sadder than me writing these words...
Really, in full honesty and with my full respect and regards.
I could care less if lotro went F2P as it was the game was in a slow death just like DDO. It was the only way to save it.
My problem comes from no content for the past 6 months, no new content for the next 3-6 months at the end game level. Meanwhile Turbine/wb does evrything they can to get the new kid on the block while taking a dump on its vet players and basicly told us you got to sit there until around december without nothing new to do.
One thing to get new players, another thing to sacrifice almost 90% of your vet player base to do so, is the real problem.
So telling me to be ok while I watch a once great game go down the tubes, and Tubine walk lock step righ behind cryptic is what makes me sick.
I must admit I didn't think from this perspective (didn't play lotro in a year or so). Hmmmm.... in the end it's all for money, so if they can earn a lot more by bringing new players and abandon vets ... well .. simply put you're screwed (at least to the time when they actually start developing more end game content). Anyway, I don't like it.
While I understand you are annoyed that someone might feel your site is using its blogs to promote the games that buy ad space here, it doesn't really sit well with me that you would "Attack" the people who ultimately come here and spend their time perusing these forums because they genuinely like the content here. "I wish I was as smart as you" What kind of snarky bs is that? Is this what I can expect from the managing editor of this website from now on? I am really amazed at your lack of tact and your apparent inability to be diplomatic or mature.
You're right, I did go too far at the end of the post and for that I apologize and have been spoken to internally by our Community Manager.
It is very difficult to come to work every day and to be accused of being unethical in your business practices when you work very hard not to be. it is very difficult to come to work day in and day out and have the same person make the same accusations that you have done your best in the past to politely expain in as open and honest a way as possible.
That's not an excuse. It's true that lashing out is never the answer, and I was wrong to do so. I'll admit that.
Nicely done. I wish more people had enough integrity to apologize for their mistakes.
While I understand you are annoyed that someone might feel your site is using its blogs to promote the games that buy ad space here, it doesn't really sit well with me that you would "Attack" the people who ultimately come here and spend their time perusing these forums because they genuinely like the content here. "I wish I was as smart as you" What kind of snarky bs is that? Is this what I can expect from the managing editor of this website from now on? I am really amazed at your lack of tact and your apparent inability to be diplomatic or mature.
You're right, I did go too far at the end of the post and for that I apologize and have been spoken to internally by our Community Manager.
It is very difficult to come to work every day and to be accused of being unethical in your business practices when you work very hard not to be. it is very difficult to come to work day in and day out and have the same person make the same accusations that you have done your best in the past to politely expain in as open and honest a way as possible.
That's not an excuse. It's true that lashing out is never the answer, and I was wrong to do so. I'll admit that.
While I understand you are annoyed that someone might feel your site is using its blogs to promote the games that buy ad space here, it doesn't really sit well with me that you would "Attack" the people who ultimately come here and spend their time perusing these forums because they genuinely like the content here. "I wish I was as smart as you" What kind of snarky bs is that? Is this what I can expect from the managing editor of this website from now on? I am really amazed at your lack of tact and your apparent inability to be diplomatic or mature.
You're right, I did go too far at the end of the post and for that I apologize and have been spoken to internally by our Community Manager.
It is very difficult to come to work every day and to be accused of being unethical in your business practices when you work very hard not to be. it is very difficult to come to work day in and day out and have the same person make the same accusations that you have done your best in the past to politely expain in as open and honest a way as possible.
That's not an excuse. It's true that lashing out is never the answer, and I was wrong to do so. I'll admit that.
5 stars for that. In all fairness though MMO Doubter guy should have been banned from this forums a long time ago. I've never seen someone troll as much as him in my life.
I would just like to put in my 2 cents about this article since everyone else is. i thought the article was very good and if half of these posters would have read it and understand it most would have answered there own post. now on the topic of F2P i happen to enjoy it, it is an excellent option for some hard core gamers like myself who enjoy playing mmos but cant really afford it, i personally don't buy anything from the item mall but i don't despise ppl that do buy stuff i mean if they want to fly on to the max lvl without learning how to use their char properly thats their business. plus i don't have a problem owning a player when i catch up to him. on the flip side of P2P games i've played them to and they do tend to be a little more polished but they have their weaknesses too. for one you have a payment set up by the company that u HAVE to pay. F2P it optional i know of plenty of good F2P games u can go to max lvl without paying a cent. 2. a P2P game has to increase the lvl curve to make players feel like they r getting their money worth. this is where i actually like F2P because its harder and takes longer to lvl and makes it more challenging.3. everyone always talks about how much money a F2P game can cost someone but if u P2P your looking at a 40-60 dollars for the game itself then 15/month so in the first year you have a cost of about 205 to 240 dollars not to mention if they come out with an expansion your looking to fork out another 40-60 bucks. with F2P its optional you can either pay what u want or nothing at all without losing access to your char. so as a last note i just wanted to say great job on a very good and informative article justin webb.
Then offer us some good bit of "informative" journalism: articles with the pros and cons of various systems. Different views of the incoming future from the insides of the industry. Alternatives, options and viewpoints from different heads with different ideas, however unconventional or unheard-of. Something, that is, that MMORPG.com has been doing exceptioanlly well and with balanced wisdom for quite some time and that, for this damned-f2p-thing, you've been putting aside delivering us a single-minded, incessant propaganda. I think Mmorpg crossed a line here.
I'm a fan of yours, Jon, not a griefer or a conspiracy theorist and no one, now, is sadder than me writing these words...
Really, in full honesty and with my full respect and regards.
Honestly, I haven't spoken to a single person within the MMO industry who doesn't feel the same way about F2P. it's coming, whether we like it or not.
I honestly thought that this article was something a bit different, offering real insight into why this is happening. it's not askign anyone to like it, it's just saying that there's a reason it's happening and that it probably isn't the end of the world. Something that is a fact.
It's not single-minded propoganda. Do you realize that I don't actually see the columnists' subjects until the day they submit their articles to me? This is done to make sure that the editorial staff isn't unduly affecting what the independent columnists want to write about. Right now, people seem to want to address this issue, probably because, from their perspective, they see a lot of people responding with complete venom and want to explain why they feel that might be an overreaction.
As for covering the LotRO news, of course it's going to get a lot of play... it's a HUGE story and one that a great many people in the industry see as a positive one.
That said, next week's list is going to be a list of reasons people might want to be leery. There's an overall balance here, no need to worry.
My probelm with cash shops is not the items they can offer but that most of the time that type of games are far far more expensive then those only with subscription. It's always so tempting to buy all those 'meaningless' things (you know, character slots, quests, bag slots, special mounts - not really game braking things) yet they're making the gameplay so much nicer.
There are very few businesses that run and don't expect to make money. the few that do run and don't expect to make money at least expect to make enough to break even. Of course, one can't do much if one is always breaking even other than stay in business and do what you have always done.
For the most part, free to play is exactly that "free to play". But what it also does is "pay to have a better experience".
It can essentially be like "one more quarter in the slot machine" before I do other things.
the issue is whether or not the game will make it so that there is no other option other than to pay in order to get anythhign out of the game. Short of a few wealthy individuals or a few players who have dedicated their lives to one game (for whatever reason) most people will just move on.
So that's the bad.
The good is that the developers have an incentive to keep content coming. How many of us have played games where we felt that we had done everything and were waiting months and months for something new? The smart developer can use this as a way to keep the game vibrant and interesting and keep the content coming. The question is whether or not they can find that sweet spot between constant fresh content and nickel and diming their customers for every square foot that they take.
Let's hope then we'll have much more smart developers.
I remeber years ago f2p was basicly thought as pay to win, much has changed since then. Nowdays it's more of this "pay to have a better experience".
"Relaxing' doesn't mean I'm going to close my eyes and turn off my mind.
Cash shops are a plague on the genre, and anyone promoting them is working against the best interests of players.
Just what IS the "best interest of players"? I keep hearing this from people, but no one ever bothers to define it. I'm interested in games that are entertaining. I really do not care if they are P2P, F2P or some hybrid. I can and do support F2P games that I find entertaining. I consider that it is in my best interest that the Dev's of games I find entertaining be rewarded for their efforts. Cash shops are simply another business model.
Take a look at all the ads on this site for F2P games.
Once again Doubter, you've got us. You've called us out on our conspiracy to gain ad revenue. You know all of the inner workings of this site and how we operate. It's not that we understand the trends in the industry and are following them. It's not that we have no trouble attracting advertisers regardless of the kind of content we produce. It's not that we have a number of failsafes in place internally to keep what you're constantly accusing us of doing from happening in the first place, and it's not like we've explained this to you time and time again on these forums.
Nope, you're right. It's a simple minded conspiracy. I wish I was as smart as you.
Really? Personal attacks from a Mod?
Extremely condescending too...
What ever happened to staying on topic?
You are correct. Both the user in question and our Managing Editor were out of line, and I assure you no one is above the law, even our own staff. This matter has been dealt with appropriately and we'd appreciate if everyone remained on topic from this point on. Thank you!
I'll repeat what i said in the LOTRO thread again.
If you think the players at the top of the PTP games aren't spending as much or more with their wallets to stay at the top, as players in FTP's, then you're deluding yourselves.
How much does it cost to kill Arthas?
How many months did it take you to reach a point at which you could take on Arthas? Not just the leveling, but the gearing-up time, too, plus getting all the necessary ingredients for enchantments and potions.
Multiply that number by... what is it now, $14.95 per month? That's how much it costs to kill Arthas.
By the way, before this creates more argument -- I usally pay to play, when I have the time and the money. When I don't, I sign up for betas in both PtP and FtP games. It's always good to see what's out there (and who knows, I may be able to help correct erros before something gets released). Once in a while, I check out FtP for a week or two, sometimes a bit longer. In other words, I like MMOs.
Why isn't it okay for someone to just not like F2P? Why the constant push of the writer to justify F2Ps existance? For the record, I have played tons of F2Ps and some of them are fun, and some of them (most of the ones I played) just suck. Isn't it ok to just NOT like something?
As far as I've always said, F2P is simply a different business model. If you don't like it, don't play F2P games. If F2P games become the norm, then you have the choice to find another hobby. Its that simple.
My probelm with cash shops is not the items they can offer but that most of the time that type of games are far far more expensive then those only with subscription.
This is a statement I agree with. I've heard F2P fans say that they're in fact cheaper, but I have yet to see any proof, especially when I'm breaking down a subscription by the amount of time I've played vs. the price of the subscription. As someone else already pointed out, if I spend a fiften dollar flat fee a month for a game, and play at least a couple hours a week, I'm getting more than fifteen dollars out of the product (compared to other forms of entertainment, such as movies or books). I'm just completely baffled that people would choose to pay more for less.
I understand that people want to play free games, but these games are not free. They aren't even remotely free, despite being advertised as such, which, alone, should make us question these companies credibility. We should be calling these "F2A", or free to access, because that's all you're guaranteed. You can download it, make an account, and login, but you better be prepared to spend some money or you're going to feel like a kid in an amusement park without any tickets to ride, and not just any amusement park, we're talking open-for-the-weekend, carnies-all-upons, over-priced-fair-food, here.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Its the way MMO have been going for a long time. Steefle said they were going to make LotR F2P two years ago. No one believed him. When DDO went F2P no one put 2 and 2 together and saw they were testing it out on their failed MMO. Changing the business model catapulted DDO from a dead game to the third most played MMO with over one million active users.
DDO now ranks up there with WoW in the west. You can not argue a successful business move like that.
Even before western games started going F2P, western gamers have been using third party cash and item shops since MMOs started. People have been purchasing gold, items and characters since UO launched. In many cases the third party cash shop made more money on transactions then the game publishers made in subs.
The people inclined to do it have been doing it in every game for over a decade.
The money in MMOs has never been in the subscriptions...Guild Wars showed us that in 2004. After that game launched only a meat head would not have seen this coming, I'm only surprised it took so long and there are so many holdouts that are dieing a slow death.
In many cases these days, MMOs simply do not hold subscribers like in the past. There are too many choices now. Too much to see and too much to do in too many games to try.
It's hilarious when people start throwing around phrases like 'real gamer' as if it means anything. Playing a game, any game, makes someone a real gamer just like breathing air makes them a real air-breather.
If there's some kind of approved guidelines that isn't someone's personal opinion I've yet to see it.
If you can't feel the difference between buying something, and winning or earning something, then it can't be explained to you.
Interesting... In P2P games, you are buying things with your time investment. That is also how many people gain their money. Some people are willing to trade some money rather than larger amounts of their time in games. Why do you insist that they not have that option? It all comes down to the choices involved.
Imagine a game where monsters dont drop silver, and training/repairing doesnt cost anything. Instead all trade interactions are conducted using gold only.
I just threw up.
The biggest thing I got out of this article is that the writer thinks that 'anti-F2P' gamers don't understand F2P games when it is actuallyhim who does not understand 'anti-F2p' gamers.
What I’m really excited about is the next step. Imagine a game where monsters don’t drop silver, and training/repairing doesn’t cost anything. Instead all trade interactions are conducted using gold only. Type-2 players can buy gold with real money. There is a harvested “commodity” in the game that ALL players need, but it takes a while to accumulate. Type-1 players can auction their extra “commodity” to type-2 players in exchange for gold. This way, type-1 players can earn gold to buy their fancy mounts while type-2 players get the “commodity” they need without having to do the grind. Using this system, the only currency that exists in the game was bought using real money by type-2 players. At this point you have a real economy, with type-1 and type-2 players existing symbiotically. That would be awesome. Nolan Bushnell has been banging on about this for years. - Justin Webb
So... have you heard of Second Life?
And... do you have no concept of inflation and the devaluation of a monetary system where the currency can be printed at will? Look at all the games where third party gold farmers/sellers have destroyed the economy by throwing off the cost f the simplest thing because of saturating the world with currency that is not available to the common player outside of purchasing it.
But wait, there's more... why on Earth is anybody surprised about a PRO F2P article here? Have you guys been running with your adblockers for so long that you forgot all the ads here are from F2P games...?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Whooo hoo. Turbine knows how to stir up the nerdy hornets' nest.
I see it as a P2P game with a F2P option, not the other way around. Frankly, it could even be considered a P2P game with an unlimited free trial and an intermediate payment option. Why? F2P subscribers will be so limited that they'll be... "strongly encouraged" to sub. Some people don't like that - they want free reign like any other F2P game. Nope. Turbine wants people in the game, but they're going to keep it P2P in quality. That's what matters most. If things work out, the huge influx of people who try it will get hooked and start paying up, which leads to revenue, which leads to (hopefully) faster and better game development.
Will the overall community take a hit? Probably. It's just common sense that the more people there are, the greater chance of morons. It won't turn into anything like WoW, though, and even if it did, there are no default global chat channels (yes, people, GLFF is optional), and there are hundreds of mature, helpful Kinships. Perhaps the reason why LotRO has such a good community is because you can isolate yourself relatively easily. This will become a benefit if things take a turn for the worse.
Maybe we shouldn't breathe, though. Maybe we should keep throwing this hissy fit. After all, breathing releases carbon dioxide into the air, thus causing global warming and killing polar bears. You don't want to do that, do you? By that logic, throwing a hissy fit would probably release more CO2, but at least in the latter case we're "defending our rights" and "fighting the Evil Empire" or just "expressing our opinion as loudly and ignorantly as possible." Just breathing accomplishes nothing.
We get an article next week about why we should be raging? Nice. I'm sure that thread will be a happier place since all the old farts will have something they can support.
It's hilarious when people start throwing around phrases like 'real gamer' as if it means anything. Playing a game, any game, makes someone a real gamer just like breathing air makes them a real air-breather.
If there's some kind of approved guidelines that isn't someone's personal opinion I've yet to see it.
If you can't feel the difference between buying something, and winning or earning something, then it can't be explained to you.
I feel like this sums up the thread. F2P games allow you to earn things by using real money, that is ridiculous. Why not just rob a bank rather than get a real job?
Cheating FEELS like cheating, buying things rather than earning them? FEELS like cheating.
Recent history has demonstrated that the best way to rob a bank is to own one.(especially if it is Too Big to Fail)
The hysteria over F2P is really entertaining, and demonstrates that all too many people have not bothered to think things through. F2P is simply a different business model. If you don't like it, don't play games that use it. Its no more "unfair" than games that reward those who have little life outside of the game. If something has been established by the Dev's themselves, then by definition it is not cheating. Once more, if you don't like F2P games, don't play them.
It's hilarious when people start throwing around phrases like 'real gamer' as if it means anything. Playing a game, any game, makes someone a real gamer just like breathing air makes them a real air-breather.
If there's some kind of approved guidelines that isn't someone's personal opinion I've yet to see it.
If you can't feel the difference between buying something, and winning or earning something, then it can't be explained to you.
Interesting... In P2P games, you are buying things with your time investment. That is also how many people gain their money. Some people are willing to trade some money rather than larger amounts of their time in games. Why do you insist that they not have that option? It all comes down to the choices involved.
In p2p he is buying things with his time investment playing the game. That playing the game part is important. Advancing in a game without playing it doesn't make too much sense.
Then offer us some good bit of "informative" journalism: articles with the pros and cons of various systems. Different views of the incoming future from the insides of the industry. Alternatives, options and viewpoints from different heads with different ideas, however unconventional or unheard-of. Something, that is, that MMORPG.com has been doing exceptioanlly well and with balanced wisdom for quite some time and that, for this damned-f2p-thing, you've been putting aside delivering us a single-minded, incessant propaganda. I think Mmorpg crossed a line here.
I'm a fan of yours, Jon, not a griefer or a conspiracy theorist and no one, now, is sadder than me writing these words...
Really, in full honesty and with my full respect and regards.
Honestly, I haven't spoken to a single person within the MMO industry who doesn't feel the same way about F2P. it's coming, whether we like it or not.
I honestly thought that this article was something a bit different, offering real insight into why this is happening. it's not askign anyone to like it, it's just saying that there's a reason it's happening and that it probably isn't the end of the world. Something that is a fact.
It's not single-minded propoganda. Do you realize that I don't actually see the columnists' subjects until the day they submit their articles to me? This is done to make sure that the editorial staff isn't unduly affecting what the independent columnists want to write about. Right now, people seem to want to address this issue, probably because, from their perspective, they see a lot of people responding with complete venom and want to explain why they feel that might be an overreaction.
As for covering the LotRO news, of course it's going to get a lot of play... it's a HUGE story and one that a great many people in the industry see as a positive one.
That said, next week's list is going to be a list of reasons people might want to be leery. There's an overall balance here, no need to worry.
The article was informative, but it really hits a sour note at the end when it says "Relax ... breathe."
That is an extremely condescending thing to say to your readers. It completely setup this thread for epic flaming.
Comments
Great article -- thanks for the info.
Regards,
mszv
You're right, I did go too far at the end of the post and for that I apologize and have been spoken to internally by our Community Manager.
It is very difficult to come to work every day and to be accused of being unethical in your business practices when you work very hard not to be. it is very difficult to come to work day in and day out and have the same person make the same accusations that you have done your best in the past to politely expain in as open and honest a way as possible.
That's not an excuse. It's true that lashing out is never the answer, and I was wrong to do so. I'll admit that.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
There are very few businesses that run and don't expect to make money. the few that do run and don't expect to make money at least expect to make enough to break even. Of course, one can't do much if one is always breaking even other than stay in business and do what you have always done.
For the most part, free to play is exactly that "free to play". But what it also does is "pay to have a better experience".
It can essentially be like "one more quarter in the slot machine" before I do other things.
the issue is whether or not the game will make it so that there is no other option other than to pay in order to get anythhign out of the game. Short of a few wealthy individuals or a few players who have dedicated their lives to one game (for whatever reason) most people will just move on.
So that's the bad.
The good is that the developers have an incentive to keep content coming. How many of us have played games where we felt that we had done everything and were waiting months and months for something new? The smart developer can use this as a way to keep the game vibrant and interesting and keep the content coming. The question is whether or not they can find that sweet spot between constant fresh content and nickel and diming their customers for every square foot that they take.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Then offer us some good bit of "informative" journalism: articles with the pros and cons of various systems. Different views of the incoming future from the insides of the industry. Alternatives, options and viewpoints from different heads with different ideas, however unconventional or unheard-of. Something, that is, that MMORPG.com has been doing exceptioanlly well and with balanced wisdom for quite some time and that, for this damned-f2p-thing, you've been putting aside delivering us a single-minded, incessant propaganda. I think Mmorpg crossed a line here.
I'm a fan of yours, Jon, not a griefer or a conspiracy theorist and no one, now, is sadder than me writing these words...
Really, in full honesty and with my full respect and regards.
I must admit I didn't think from this perspective (didn't play lotro in a year or so). Hmmmm.... in the end it's all for money, so if they can earn a lot more by bringing new players and abandon vets ... well .. simply put you're screwed (at least to the time when they actually start developing more end game content). Anyway, I don't like it.
Nicely done. I wish more people had enough integrity to apologize for their mistakes.
Chapeau.
5 stars for that. In all fairness though MMO Doubter guy should have been banned from this forums a long time ago. I've never seen someone troll as much as him in my life.
I would just like to put in my 2 cents about this article since everyone else is. i thought the article was very good and if half of these posters would have read it and understand it most would have answered there own post. now on the topic of F2P i happen to enjoy it, it is an excellent option for some hard core gamers like myself who enjoy playing mmos but cant really afford it, i personally don't buy anything from the item mall but i don't despise ppl that do buy stuff i mean if they want to fly on to the max lvl without learning how to use their char properly thats their business. plus i don't have a problem owning a player when i catch up to him. on the flip side of P2P games i've played them to and they do tend to be a little more polished but they have their weaknesses too. for one you have a payment set up by the company that u HAVE to pay. F2P it optional i know of plenty of good F2P games u can go to max lvl without paying a cent. 2. a P2P game has to increase the lvl curve to make players feel like they r getting their money worth. this is where i actually like F2P because its harder and takes longer to lvl and makes it more challenging.3. everyone always talks about how much money a F2P game can cost someone but if u P2P your looking at a 40-60 dollars for the game itself then 15/month so in the first year you have a cost of about 205 to 240 dollars not to mention if they come out with an expansion your looking to fork out another 40-60 bucks. with F2P its optional you can either pay what u want or nothing at all without losing access to your char. so as a last note i just wanted to say great job on a very good and informative article justin webb.
Honestly, I haven't spoken to a single person within the MMO industry who doesn't feel the same way about F2P. it's coming, whether we like it or not.
I honestly thought that this article was something a bit different, offering real insight into why this is happening. it's not askign anyone to like it, it's just saying that there's a reason it's happening and that it probably isn't the end of the world. Something that is a fact.
It's not single-minded propoganda. Do you realize that I don't actually see the columnists' subjects until the day they submit their articles to me? This is done to make sure that the editorial staff isn't unduly affecting what the independent columnists want to write about. Right now, people seem to want to address this issue, probably because, from their perspective, they see a lot of people responding with complete venom and want to explain why they feel that might be an overreaction.
As for covering the LotRO news, of course it's going to get a lot of play... it's a HUGE story and one that a great many people in the industry see as a positive one.
That said, next week's list is going to be a list of reasons people might want to be leery. There's an overall balance here, no need to worry.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Let's hope then we'll have much more smart developers.
I remeber years ago f2p was basicly thought as pay to win, much has changed since then. Nowdays it's more of this "pay to have a better experience".
Just what IS the "best interest of players"? I keep hearing this from people, but no one ever bothers to define it. I'm interested in games that are entertaining. I really do not care if they are P2P, F2P or some hybrid. I can and do support F2P games that I find entertaining. I consider that it is in my best interest that the Dev's of games I find entertaining be rewarded for their efforts. Cash shops are simply another business model.
You are correct. Both the user in question and our Managing Editor were out of line, and I assure you no one is above the law, even our own staff. This matter has been dealt with appropriately and we'd appreciate if everyone remained on topic from this point on. Thank you!
Ah... So if one enjoys a game, one shouldn't support the Dev's that created it? How is that in ones best interests?
How many months did it take you to reach a point at which you could take on Arthas? Not just the leveling, but the gearing-up time, too, plus getting all the necessary ingredients for enchantments and potions.
Multiply that number by... what is it now, $14.95 per month? That's how much it costs to kill Arthas.
By the way, before this creates more argument -- I usally pay to play, when I have the time and the money. When I don't, I sign up for betas in both PtP and FtP games. It's always good to see what's out there (and who knows, I may be able to help correct erros before something gets released). Once in a while, I check out FtP for a week or two, sometimes a bit longer. In other words, I like MMOs.
As far as I've always said, F2P is simply a different business model. If you don't like it, don't play F2P games. If F2P games become the norm, then you have the choice to find another hobby. Its that simple.
This is a statement I agree with. I've heard F2P fans say that they're in fact cheaper, but I have yet to see any proof, especially when I'm breaking down a subscription by the amount of time I've played vs. the price of the subscription. As someone else already pointed out, if I spend a fiften dollar flat fee a month for a game, and play at least a couple hours a week, I'm getting more than fifteen dollars out of the product (compared to other forms of entertainment, such as movies or books). I'm just completely baffled that people would choose to pay more for less.
I understand that people want to play free games, but these games are not free. They aren't even remotely free, despite being advertised as such, which, alone, should make us question these companies credibility. We should be calling these "F2A", or free to access, because that's all you're guaranteed. You can download it, make an account, and login, but you better be prepared to spend some money or you're going to feel like a kid in an amusement park without any tickets to ride, and not just any amusement park, we're talking open-for-the-weekend, carnies-all-upons, over-priced-fair-food, here.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
Its the way MMO have been going for a long time. Steefle said they were going to make LotR F2P two years ago. No one believed him. When DDO went F2P no one put 2 and 2 together and saw they were testing it out on their failed MMO. Changing the business model catapulted DDO from a dead game to the third most played MMO with over one million active users.
DDO now ranks up there with WoW in the west. You can not argue a successful business move like that.
Even before western games started going F2P, western gamers have been using third party cash and item shops since MMOs started. People have been purchasing gold, items and characters since UO launched. In many cases the third party cash shop made more money on transactions then the game publishers made in subs.
The people inclined to do it have been doing it in every game for over a decade.
The money in MMOs has never been in the subscriptions...Guild Wars showed us that in 2004. After that game launched only a meat head would not have seen this coming, I'm only surprised it took so long and there are so many holdouts that are dieing a slow death.
In many cases these days, MMOs simply do not hold subscribers like in the past. There are too many choices now. Too much to see and too much to do in too many games to try.
Interesting... In P2P games, you are buying things with your time investment. That is also how many people gain their money. Some people are willing to trade some money rather than larger amounts of their time in games. Why do you insist that they not have that option? It all comes down to the choices involved.
The biggest thing I got out of this article is that the writer thinks that 'anti-F2P' gamers don't understand F2P games when it is actually him who does not understand 'anti-F2p' gamers.
What I’m really excited about is the next step. Imagine a game where monsters don’t drop silver, and training/repairing doesn’t cost anything. Instead all trade interactions are conducted using gold only. Type-2 players can buy gold with real money. There is a harvested “commodity” in the game that ALL players need, but it takes a while to accumulate. Type-1 players can auction their extra “commodity” to type-2 players in exchange for gold. This way, type-1 players can earn gold to buy their fancy mounts while type-2 players get the “commodity” they need without having to do the grind. Using this system, the only currency that exists in the game was bought using real money by type-2 players. At this point you have a real economy, with type-1 and type-2 players existing symbiotically. That would be awesome. Nolan Bushnell has been banging on about this for years. - Justin Webb
So... have you heard of Second Life?
And... do you have no concept of inflation and the devaluation of a monetary system where the currency can be printed at will? Look at all the games where third party gold farmers/sellers have destroyed the economy by throwing off the cost f the simplest thing because of saturating the world with currency that is not available to the common player outside of purchasing it.
But wait, there's more... why on Earth is anybody surprised about a PRO F2P article here? Have you guys been running with your adblockers for so long that you forgot all the ads here are from F2P games...?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Whooo hoo. Turbine knows how to stir up the nerdy hornets' nest.
I see it as a P2P game with a F2P option, not the other way around. Frankly, it could even be considered a P2P game with an unlimited free trial and an intermediate payment option. Why? F2P subscribers will be so limited that they'll be... "strongly encouraged" to sub. Some people don't like that - they want free reign like any other F2P game. Nope. Turbine wants people in the game, but they're going to keep it P2P in quality. That's what matters most. If things work out, the huge influx of people who try it will get hooked and start paying up, which leads to revenue, which leads to (hopefully) faster and better game development.
Will the overall community take a hit? Probably. It's just common sense that the more people there are, the greater chance of morons. It won't turn into anything like WoW, though, and even if it did, there are no default global chat channels (yes, people, GLFF is optional), and there are hundreds of mature, helpful Kinships. Perhaps the reason why LotRO has such a good community is because you can isolate yourself relatively easily. This will become a benefit if things take a turn for the worse.
Maybe we shouldn't breathe, though. Maybe we should keep throwing this hissy fit. After all, breathing releases carbon dioxide into the air, thus causing global warming and killing polar bears. You don't want to do that, do you? By that logic, throwing a hissy fit would probably release more CO2, but at least in the latter case we're "defending our rights" and "fighting the Evil Empire" or just "expressing our opinion as loudly and ignorantly as possible." Just breathing accomplishes nothing.
We get an article next week about why we should be raging? Nice. I'm sure that thread will be a happier place since all the old farts will have something they can support.
Recent history has demonstrated that the best way to rob a bank is to own one.(especially if it is Too Big to Fail)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWXtW-AMcSg
The hysteria over F2P is really entertaining, and demonstrates that all too many people have not bothered to think things through. F2P is simply a different business model. If you don't like it, don't play games that use it. Its no more "unfair" than games that reward those who have little life outside of the game. If something has been established by the Dev's themselves, then by definition it is not cheating. Once more, if you don't like F2P games, don't play them.
In p2p he is buying things with his time investment playing the game. That playing the game part is important. Advancing in a game without playing it doesn't make too much sense.
The article was informative, but it really hits a sour note at the end when it says "Relax ... breathe."
That is an extremely condescending thing to say to your readers. It completely setup this thread for epic flaming.