Virus, I would suggest that you read the posts you responded to, one poster didn't say that Eve was hard. The one you responded to on this page remarked how Eves incentives to get people playing can be viewed as a "HARD SELL". They didn't say it was hard. Even the OP didn't say that. The OP was basically looking for challenge and an alleviation from the boredom they felt.
This is what I replied to:
"In Eve you still have that progression, but it's not spelled out for you and that's where people run into a problem. They are simply put into the gameworld and told that the rest is up to them. At this point the player looks at what his/her options are and asks themselves 'what am I getting out of this that will advance my character' and there is no real clear cut answer. That's why they eventually give up on the game. "
I disagree with that. They are not simply put into the gameworld and told the rest is up to them. There are clear cut answers on what advancing their character will give them. That is not why "they" eventually give up on the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Personally I think the MMO industry needs to evolve its products to be more like ongoing and dynamic sagas (e.g. like Tv series or film trilogies). In short, the purpose needs to be made more fluidic.
So, in a way, they take the best of single player games (where the storyline is frequently changing) and have it both affect the players actions AND have the players actions affect the outcome of the storyline. Thus removing the "linear" feeling. Yes, there could still be the usual quest types, but the actions of the players shape the future of the game.
It is one of my concerns about SW:TOR, with BioWare being the great SP-RPG maker...going into a MMORPG.
In general though, developers would need to create almost constant content to keep up with a playerbase, which is not going to happen. Or they wold have seemingly random quests that once enough players have completed them would trigger events - it would be interesting, in a sense, having some players trying to complete quests to bring about one outcome while other players would be trying to complete quests to bring about a different outcome.
You would also face the issue that once something had happened, it could not happen again. Once a group of players took out Boss A, then the next group would not be able to do so. Would it just turn into a case of Boss B-Z appearing then? What would be the point then?
When everybody in the game is a hero, what is the point of being a hero? It can have meaning, as long as the people are heroes for different reasons - different accomplishments that have some meaning, you know?
How many times does Hogger have to die before Elwynn is safe?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I do share your concerns about SWTOR. My gut is telling me that their emphasis and hyping of their "storytelling" abilities in the game is just all smoke and mirrors.
To me, it all comes down to management of the product during its production stages. MMO devs have to build in a dynamic driving system from the outset. Or play a greater "hands on" role in the evolution of the game post-launch.
Perhaps there needs to be a greater synergy between the playstyles. For instance, let's suppose you have a space based MMO. Now, if XXX faction PVP'ers succeed in taking more territory from YYY faction, then the XXX PVE'ers, gatherers and crafters get greater benefits which trickle back to the PVP'ers. That then begins to create greater purpose and direction for everyone in the game. The devs could then add to that by creating ficticious events which occur and are reported about which can also affect the outcome.
"News Headlines: President of XXX faction killed in explosion. YYY faction accused. YYY faction ships will all undergo routine inspections when in XXX space or suffer being fired upon."
Now such an "event" could also be written to last a week, a month or until another event changes the situation. In the example above, it wouldn't necessarily need to be a real-time event that people witness in the game. It could be pre-filmed and shown as a "raw footage" video on the MMO's website as part of regular news headlines.
Another example could be simply that a certain mission giver is killed during a terrorist raid. Now, that mission giver is gone forever, and therefore so has his missions. However, another mission giver could appear (say the police) who want players to find evidence on who commited the act of terrorism.
What you begin to see is the progression seen in single player games, but in the freedom of an MMO environment.
The key to it all is that the devs would have to continue to push events and stories along. Some missions may not be available due to the nature of the events, whereas new missions appear as a result of them.
The next evolution to MMO's needs to be a more dynamic environment. Where devs and players together can effect situations and events.
It is all possible....its down to whether the MMO company wants to do it.
And this is the sad thing, Eve is probably the closest we have at the moment that could possibly encompass such dynamic and fluidic changes to the environments and interactions between pve'ers and pvp'ers. But unfortunately, it fails to provide some of the elements that pve'ers need beyond just repetitive missions, mining and crafting.
Maybe the likes of Black Prophecy will pick up that gauntlet? It certainly has an edge on Eve due to it being 1st/3rd person twitch based game with a background story. Or maybe SWTOR will cater for a dynamic environment and storyline.
Originally posted by Tarka And this is the sad thing, Eve is probably the closest we have at the moment that could possibly encompass such dynamic and fluidic changes to the environments and interactions between pve'ers and pvp'ers. But unfortunately, it fails to provide some of the elements that pve'ers need beyond just repetitive missions, mining and crafting. Maybe the likes of Black Prophecy will pick up that gauntlet? It certainly has an edge on Eve due to it being 1st/3rd person twitch based game with a background story. Or maybe SWTOR will cater for a dynamic environment and storyline. Who knows.
SWTOR from its premises looks VERY far from dynamic environment (they're talking about storytelling, not storymaking, so it looks pretty much like the standard "we set your goals, and they'll stay the same until next expansion" thing). Black Prophecy on the other side looks a bit too much like a space skirmish simulator, rather than a "true" MMO ("Black Prophecy is more action-oriented than a traditional space simulation. We are trying to avoid long travel times or other activities where the player isn't really doing anything.", their features page says). There's that thing about dynamic pve content in Guild Wars 2, but i know very little of it, didn't really follow the development.
What's with people posting on their Eve high horse calling people lazy, and saying WoW-people want instant graitification and this and that.
Come on guys you don't get tired of using the same cliches over and over. Believe it or not, not everyone is some WoW nub. A lot of people that play WoW played various of the "elite" MMO's that veterans seem to have a high horse about these days.
Fact is, WoW has a lot of stuff. A lot of it is fluff, but the fluff keeps you entertained. To say that everything is instant is kind of naive. Have you ever done hardmode achievement runs in the raids? That's why WoW is so successful. They started appealing towards casual gamers while keeping the hardcore ones entertained. That's the key to success, having something for everyone.
Lazy about Eve? It's a great game, but I wouldn't call someone lazy because they expect their game to entertain them instead of having to work for it yourself.
I've playe MUDS for years where you REALLY have to make your own fun with imagination and player interactions. This game has the graphics, but the fun is entirely based on player interactions. I'm not looking to have to work for the fun. I don't think this makes me a terrible person. I don't think this makes Eve a terrible game. I wanted to be entertained by logging into the game, but it doesn't necessarily work like that with this game.
It's not a crime to expect a game to entertain you.
Just thought I would note that after giving it a lot of thought we decided to pass up Eve. It was in contention for a while, but the inability for the two of us to log on, have fun for a few hours, and get out, was a deal breaker for us.
Lazy about Eve? It's a great game, but I wouldn't call someone lazy because they expect their game to entertain them instead of having to work for it yourself.
You are familiar with the definition of lazy, right? You do realize that what you said there is that you would not call somebody lazy that fits a definition of lazy...right?
Would you prefer "passive" instead? Would you prefer that they prefer to be passengers than drivers? Would you prefer they like to go McDonald's instead of cooking at home?
When you started up there, did you play through the tutorials the game offers or did you skip them?
^--- is a pertinent question to ask anybody that "attempted" EVE and walked away for pretty much any other reason than it simply was not their bag.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
It's not a crime to expect a game to entertain you.
Just thought I would note that after giving it a lot of thought we decided to pass up Eve. It was in contention for a while, but the inability for the two of us to log on, have fun for a few hours, and get out, was a deal breaker for us.
I agree!! Games should be fun, first and foremost!! If I want to spend an evening not having fun, I can always start an argument with my wife or something.
If I want something that feels to me like it is a second job, then I'd go out and get a second job that pays me, rather than paying $15 a month for that.
Boils down to personal preference.. You like what you like, and you don't like what you don't like.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Virus, I'm not going to get into a copy and paste debate, we'll just agree to disagree. My only point (which pertains to the OP) was Eve may be a great game, but for many it's not, even though they want it to be. It's because of the reasons I listed. Yes, they want instant gratification, but MMO players in general have been conditioned to be like this. Doesn't mean they are lazy or don't want to put in effort. Most people who play games (I'm talking casual gamers) don't want to put effort into games. Usually that comes after they are enjoying the game and realize they want to improve. To me, it's harder to get that 'enjoyment' initially from Eve due to the way it's designed. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing but it may answer the question why the OP 'liked the idea of Eve more than he enjoyed the actual game'.
At it's core Eve is not entertainment but a real life simulation in a futuristic environment.
YOU need to decide on what you want to do in the game, YOU need to decide on your goals, YOU need to make it happen. YOUR actions ( and everyone else's ) have actual consequences on you ( and everyone else ). CCP merely provide the tools, including a plethora of ones to make someone else's playing experience miserable if you wish to do so.
Some players like that, some don't. Both is perfectly fine and neither a sign of lacking intelligence, social skills or whatever. As for every other MMO there is a simple rule: Don't like it, don't p(l)ay.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Its true, EVE is a game that makes you work at it.
Also true, this does not appeal to most MMORPG players.
Conclusion, EVE isn't for everyone.
And this is a good thing.
I agree that it's a good thing but Eve benefits also from the fact that there is no other competition (sci-fi space MMO) that's comes close. If a game were to come out that appealled more to mainstream MMO gamers yet still had the gameplay and polish like Eve has (Jumpgate I'm looking at you), it may have a factor on how CCP develops their game in the future.
It's not at all about being a space Sci-Fi game. It's about the way it works. There is some thematic sense that Internet space ships work the way they do in EVE, but it's a pretty silly argument that games that have nothing but the theme in common with EVE would present any kind of competition. People who just like Sci Fi are people who start threads like this.
Its true, EVE is a game that makes you work at it.
Also true, this does not appeal to most MMORPG players.
Conclusion, EVE isn't for everyone.
And this is a good thing.
I agree that it's a good thing but Eve benefits also from the fact that there is no other competition (sci-fi space MMO) that's comes close. If a game were to come out that appealled more to mainstream MMO gamers yet still had the gameplay and polish like Eve has (Jumpgate I'm looking at you), it may have a factor on how CCP develops their game in the future.
To be honest, I've more faith that Black Prophecy will be more appealing than Jumgate Evolution, simply because of the modular ship design and customisation possibilities. People don't like to look all the same in an MMO, and JGE gives me the impression that that is a distinct possibility.
Anyhow, I do agree that Eve has been enjoying the fact that it has little competition. But that's due to change. Whether CCP want to change their design of Eve is entirely up to them. But while it exists, Eve can teach other developers a few lessons on how to do some things right and others wrong (dependant on the demographic you're aiming at).
It's not at all about being a space Sci-Fi game. It's about the way it works. There is some thematic sense that Internet space ships work the way they do in EVE, but it's a pretty silly argument that games that have nothing but the theme in common with EVE would present any kind of competition. People who just like Sci Fi are people who start threads like this.
I'd have to agree, for the most part people don't play EVE because its a Sci-fi game as much as for the particular game play mechanics and their implementation. I certainly could be pulled away if there was a similar fantasy based game that included real time skill training, open ended sand box type game play, better PVE content (I like a good quest now and then) and some other features.
I don't know much about JGE and BP, but if they follow the more traditional mechanics of leveling, character progression by rewarding those who have more time to play and what not that will hold very little appeal to me regardless of their player mechanics.
I'd venture a guess that most people who want the unique features offered by JGE and BP have already left EVE since it doesn't currently offer them.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's not at all about being a space Sci-Fi game. It's about the way it works. There is some thematic sense that Internet space ships work the way they do in EVE, but it's a pretty silly argument that games that have nothing but the theme in common with EVE would present any kind of competition. People who just like Sci Fi are people who start threads like this.
I'd have to agree, for the most part people don't play EVE because its a Sci-fi game as much as for the particular game play mechanics and their implementation. I certainly could be pulled away if there was a similar fantasy based game that included real time skill training, open ended sand box type game play, better PVE content (I like a good quest now and then) and some other features.
I don't know much about JGE and BP, but if they follow the more traditional mechanics of leveling, character progression by rewarding those who have more time to play and what not that will hold very little appeal to me regardless of their player mechanics.
I'd venture a guess that most people who want the unique features offered by JGE and BP have already left EVE since it doesn't currently offer them.
I think my point is that I think everyone agrees that there are areas where Eve could improve without bastardizing what it already has, some significantly so. And up until this point, there really hasn't been anything to compete with it on that level (hence the no competition).
I agree with the OP's subject statement: I am entirely enamoured with the IDEA of EVE, and the possibilities this game has. After playing it off and on for 5 years, subbing, cancelling, resubbing, I know its simply missing the factor that I need: and that is a human avatar. And no matter how much I try and fight that and look at the other points of the game that I am enthralled with (the vast universe, the one shard, the economies, the travel, the corps, 0.0, the beautiful graphics, etc. etc.) I will never stick with it because deep down I dont like being a ship 100% of the time. May be shallow, but I cant help it.
If CCP puts in some human avatars that can interact, walk around on stations and planets, etc. I am back full time and all other MMOs are done.
I agree with the OP's subject statement: I am entirely enamoured with the IDEA of EVE, and the possibilities this game has. After playing it off and on for 5 years, subbing, cancelling, resubbing, I know its simply missing the factor that I need: and that is a human avatar. And no matter how much I try and fight that and look at the other points of the game that I am enthralled with (the vast universe, the one shard, the economies, the travel, the corps, 0.0, the beautiful graphics, etc. etc.) I will never stick with it because deep down I dont like being a ship 100% of the time. May be shallow, but I cant help it.
If CCP puts in some human avatars that can interact, walk around on stations and planets, etc. I am back full time and all other MMOs are done.
I do not understand why this would be the case. Will it be some authorized agent of your capsuleer with power of attorney to do things on their behalf? What things will they be able to do that you cannot do already? With CCP already having problems with the increased number of subs and concurrent users, how do you think they will handle all the lurkers partaking in the literal equivalent of a 3D chatroom?
I remember the missing human factor was a big issue leading up to the release of Auto Assault and played a part in killing it (though, that was mainly NCSoft pulling the plug too early).
You say that the thing missing from EVE is being able to see your avatar...
...I ask you then, if you are not looking at yourself in a mirror all day as you go about life - do you feel you are missing something?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
What happens when you're bored of walking around a station?
EVE is still EVE. Being able to walk around and play silly minigames does not change that.
"If all you can say is... "It's awful, it's not innovative, it's ugly, it's blah.." Then you're an unimaginative and unpolished excuse for human life" -eburn
A humanoid avatar can add another dimension to the game which it doesn't already have. Just like any other game elements that add depth for particular playstyles. And that is something that certain people, who aren't necessarily PVP / crafting / mining are looking for in Eve. Adding additional elements to the game won't necessarily kill off what is already in there. They CAN co-exist. This has been proven in other games. Not everything in a game has to be geared towards a select number of playstyles. It can be multi-faceted to cater for many to a satisfactory level.
Virus, it sounds to me like you are either really struggling with concepts that are alien to your own playstyle, or you are just pretending in order to antagonise the discussion. If the former is correct, then my advise is this: not everything in life can be understood by everyone. Just appreciate the fact that these issues are very reason concerns to some people. Thankfully, CCP know there are ways to improve their game.
@Dreathor, don't use derogatory descriptions for things that you don't fully understand. That just shows ignorance and lack of respect and courtesy.
Having a avatar would make it more immersive. Having a cockpit view would make it more immersive. The game would still be the same but at least you would feel like you were 'in' the gameworld. Lets face it, it's hard to get immersed in combat when you watching little squares and triangles flying around you.
I can understand why people like avatars and find it difficult to play w/o one. it isn't a concern of mine, nor is having good looking gear on my avatar important (I'd wear a diaper in game if it had the best stats0 but it is a major point of enjoyment for many folks, and in particular for many women.
I do have to agree though, once the initial fun of an avatar wears off, will the folk who say their enjoyment hinges on this really enjoy the rest of EVE, because that's where I think the real game is.
Maybe so, as mentioned, we can't really understand why people like certain things that we don't, just part of our inividual make up I suppose.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A humanoid avatar can add another dimension to the game which it doesn't already have. Just like any other game elements that add depth for particular playstyles. And that is something that certain people, who aren't necessarily PVP / crafting / mining are looking for in Eve. Adding additional elements to the game won't necessarily kill off what is already in there. They CAN co-exist. This has been proven in other games. Not everything in a game has to be geared towards a select number of playstyles. It can be multi-faceted to cater for many to a satisfactory level.
Virus, it sounds to me like you are either really struggling with concepts that are alien to your own playstyle, or you are just pretending in order to antagonise the discussion. If the former is correct, then my advise is this: not everything in life can be understood by everyone. Just appreciate the fact that these issues are very reason concerns to some people. Thankfully, CCP know there are ways to improve their game.
@Dreathor, don't use derogatory descriptions for things that you don't fully understand. That just shows ignorance and lack of respect and courtesy.
Tarka, I am just trying to find out what people think adding a humanoid avatar will do for them in the game. It is not meant to be antagonistic, but nobody will give a straight answer on the matter. They say the game is missing the human factor. How so? Is having a humanoid looking avatar as opposed to whatever ship you are in as your avatar, that much of a game breaker for them? Having a humanoid avatar that can partake in minigames or loiter around stations will in no way affect what one does in EVE.
You say it will add something to EVE for those that are not necessarily partaking in PVP / manufacturing / mining and I suppose that would include trading and all the other things one does in EVE now. Can you see how that would be akin to my asking that they add spaceships to WoW or superheroes to LotRO? Um, hello - it is EVE; it is one of the most open games out there, but if people are looking to pay $15 a month for a 3D chatroom...well, can you see the point there?
It has nothing to do with playstyle in the least. If I am playing WoW, then I am taking on the role of whatever character I am playing at the time. The character uses spells, swings a sword, or whatever - but it is the character, so I expect the character to be humanoid. If I am playing EVE, well - I knew before hand that I was a capsuleer and that I would be in a ship. My character is in the ship. It is no different than my character being in armor in some other game. I do not get what people do not understand about that.
Having humanoid avatars in STO makes sense, because it fits the lore of the Star Trek Universe. Having humanoid avatars in EVE does not make any sense - it violates the lore. Where are pod pilots the most vulnerable? Outside of their pods. As has been said, they are Space Gods in Goo.
As has been asked before, are people going to be happy with having avatars where they can walk around stations, chit chat, gamble some isk, and then have to return to the ship to be able to do pretty much everything the game requires? Will they be happy on some level perhaps, knowing that under all the windows on their screen as they work the market, production, etc - that instead of there being a ship under all that (which they cannot see) that there is a humanoid avatar (which they cannot see)...?
Do people want to spin humanoid avatars instead of spaceship avatars while stuck in a station?
Yet nobody provides any sort of answer...
...are they hoping that there will be massive changes to the game and opening up missions along the lines of STO where your pilot actually gets out and has to run around to do things for missions - etc?
What is it? Why?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Comments
This is what I replied to:
"In Eve you still have that progression, but it's not spelled out for you and that's where people run into a problem. They are simply put into the gameworld and told that the rest is up to them. At this point the player looks at what his/her options are and asks themselves 'what am I getting out of this that will advance my character' and there is no real clear cut answer. That's why they eventually give up on the game. "
I disagree with that. They are not simply put into the gameworld and told the rest is up to them. There are clear cut answers on what advancing their character will give them. That is not why "they" eventually give up on the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
It is one of my concerns about SW:TOR, with BioWare being the great SP-RPG maker...going into a MMORPG.
In general though, developers would need to create almost constant content to keep up with a playerbase, which is not going to happen. Or they wold have seemingly random quests that once enough players have completed them would trigger events - it would be interesting, in a sense, having some players trying to complete quests to bring about one outcome while other players would be trying to complete quests to bring about a different outcome.
You would also face the issue that once something had happened, it could not happen again. Once a group of players took out Boss A, then the next group would not be able to do so. Would it just turn into a case of Boss B-Z appearing then? What would be the point then?
When everybody in the game is a hero, what is the point of being a hero? It can have meaning, as long as the people are heroes for different reasons - different accomplishments that have some meaning, you know?
How many times does Hogger have to die before Elwynn is safe?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I do share your concerns about SWTOR. My gut is telling me that their emphasis and hyping of their "storytelling" abilities in the game is just all smoke and mirrors.
To me, it all comes down to management of the product during its production stages. MMO devs have to build in a dynamic driving system from the outset. Or play a greater "hands on" role in the evolution of the game post-launch.
Perhaps there needs to be a greater synergy between the playstyles. For instance, let's suppose you have a space based MMO. Now, if XXX faction PVP'ers succeed in taking more territory from YYY faction, then the XXX PVE'ers, gatherers and crafters get greater benefits which trickle back to the PVP'ers. That then begins to create greater purpose and direction for everyone in the game. The devs could then add to that by creating ficticious events which occur and are reported about which can also affect the outcome.
"News Headlines: President of XXX faction killed in explosion. YYY faction accused. YYY faction ships will all undergo routine inspections when in XXX space or suffer being fired upon."
Now such an "event" could also be written to last a week, a month or until another event changes the situation. In the example above, it wouldn't necessarily need to be a real-time event that people witness in the game. It could be pre-filmed and shown as a "raw footage" video on the MMO's website as part of regular news headlines.
Another example could be simply that a certain mission giver is killed during a terrorist raid. Now, that mission giver is gone forever, and therefore so has his missions. However, another mission giver could appear (say the police) who want players to find evidence on who commited the act of terrorism.
What you begin to see is the progression seen in single player games, but in the freedom of an MMO environment.
The key to it all is that the devs would have to continue to push events and stories along. Some missions may not be available due to the nature of the events, whereas new missions appear as a result of them.
The next evolution to MMO's needs to be a more dynamic environment. Where devs and players together can effect situations and events.
It is all possible....its down to whether the MMO company wants to do it.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
And this is the sad thing, Eve is probably the closest we have at the moment that could possibly encompass such dynamic and fluidic changes to the environments and interactions between pve'ers and pvp'ers. But unfortunately, it fails to provide some of the elements that pve'ers need beyond just repetitive missions, mining and crafting.
Maybe the likes of Black Prophecy will pick up that gauntlet? It certainly has an edge on Eve due to it being 1st/3rd person twitch based game with a background story. Or maybe SWTOR will cater for a dynamic environment and storyline.
Who knows.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
SWTOR from its premises looks VERY far from dynamic environment (they're talking about storytelling, not storymaking, so it looks pretty much like the standard "we set your goals, and they'll stay the same until next expansion" thing). Black Prophecy on the other side looks a bit too much like a space skirmish simulator, rather than a "true" MMO ("Black Prophecy is more action-oriented than a traditional space simulation. We are trying to avoid long travel times or other activities where the player isn't really doing anything.", their features page says). There's that thing about dynamic pve content in Guild Wars 2, but i know very little of it, didn't really follow the development.
What's with people posting on their Eve high horse calling people lazy, and saying WoW-people want instant graitification and this and that.
Come on guys you don't get tired of using the same cliches over and over. Believe it or not, not everyone is some WoW nub. A lot of people that play WoW played various of the "elite" MMO's that veterans seem to have a high horse about these days.
Fact is, WoW has a lot of stuff. A lot of it is fluff, but the fluff keeps you entertained. To say that everything is instant is kind of naive. Have you ever done hardmode achievement runs in the raids? That's why WoW is so successful. They started appealing towards casual gamers while keeping the hardcore ones entertained. That's the key to success, having something for everyone.
Lazy about Eve? It's a great game, but I wouldn't call someone lazy because they expect their game to entertain them instead of having to work for it yourself.
I've playe MUDS for years where you REALLY have to make your own fun with imagination and player interactions. This game has the graphics, but the fun is entirely based on player interactions. I'm not looking to have to work for the fun. I don't think this makes me a terrible person. I don't think this makes Eve a terrible game. I wanted to be entertained by logging into the game, but it doesn't necessarily work like that with this game.
It's not a crime to expect a game to entertain you.
Just thought I would note that after giving it a lot of thought we decided to pass up Eve. It was in contention for a while, but the inability for the two of us to log on, have fun for a few hours, and get out, was a deal breaker for us.
You are familiar with the definition of lazy, right? You do realize that what you said there is that you would not call somebody lazy that fits a definition of lazy...right?
Would you prefer "passive" instead? Would you prefer that they prefer to be passengers than drivers? Would you prefer they like to go McDonald's instead of cooking at home?
When you started up there, did you play through the tutorials the game offers or did you skip them?
^--- is a pertinent question to ask anybody that "attempted" EVE and walked away for pretty much any other reason than it simply was not their bag.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I agree!! Games should be fun, first and foremost!! If I want to spend an evening not having fun, I can always start an argument with my wife or something.
If I want something that feels to me like it is a second job, then I'd go out and get a second job that pays me, rather than paying $15 a month for that.
Boils down to personal preference.. You like what you like, and you don't like what you don't like.
"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
Virus, I'm not going to get into a copy and paste debate, we'll just agree to disagree. My only point (which pertains to the OP) was Eve may be a great game, but for many it's not, even though they want it to be. It's because of the reasons I listed. Yes, they want instant gratification, but MMO players in general have been conditioned to be like this. Doesn't mean they are lazy or don't want to put in effort. Most people who play games (I'm talking casual gamers) don't want to put effort into games. Usually that comes after they are enjoying the game and realize they want to improve. To me, it's harder to get that 'enjoyment' initially from Eve due to the way it's designed. Doesn't mean it's a bad thing but it may answer the question why the OP 'liked the idea of Eve more than he enjoyed the actual game'.
At it's core Eve is not entertainment but a real life simulation in a futuristic environment.
YOU need to decide on what you want to do in the game, YOU need to decide on your goals, YOU need to make it happen. YOUR actions ( and everyone else's ) have actual consequences on you ( and everyone else ). CCP merely provide the tools, including a plethora of ones to make someone else's playing experience miserable if you wish to do so.
Some players like that, some don't. Both is perfectly fine and neither a sign of lacking intelligence, social skills or whatever. As for every other MMO there is a simple rule: Don't like it, don't p(l)ay.
Its true, EVE is a game that makes you work at it.
Also true, this does not appeal to most MMORPG players.
Conclusion, EVE isn't for everyone.
And this is a good thing.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree that it's a good thing but Eve benefits also from the fact that there is no other competition (sci-fi space MMO) that's comes close. If a game were to come out that appealled more to mainstream MMO gamers yet still had the gameplay and polish like Eve has (Jumpgate I'm looking at you), it may have a factor on how CCP develops their game in the future.
It's not at all about being a space Sci-Fi game. It's about the way it works. There is some thematic sense that Internet space ships work the way they do in EVE, but it's a pretty silly argument that games that have nothing but the theme in common with EVE would present any kind of competition. People who just like Sci Fi are people who start threads like this.
To be honest, I've more faith that Black Prophecy will be more appealing than Jumgate Evolution, simply because of the modular ship design and customisation possibilities. People don't like to look all the same in an MMO, and JGE gives me the impression that that is a distinct possibility.
Anyhow, I do agree that Eve has been enjoying the fact that it has little competition. But that's due to change. Whether CCP want to change their design of Eve is entirely up to them. But while it exists, Eve can teach other developers a few lessons on how to do some things right and others wrong (dependant on the demographic you're aiming at).
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I'd have to agree, for the most part people don't play EVE because its a Sci-fi game as much as for the particular game play mechanics and their implementation. I certainly could be pulled away if there was a similar fantasy based game that included real time skill training, open ended sand box type game play, better PVE content (I like a good quest now and then) and some other features.
I don't know much about JGE and BP, but if they follow the more traditional mechanics of leveling, character progression by rewarding those who have more time to play and what not that will hold very little appeal to me regardless of their player mechanics.
I'd venture a guess that most people who want the unique features offered by JGE and BP have already left EVE since it doesn't currently offer them.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think my point is that I think everyone agrees that there are areas where Eve could improve without bastardizing what it already has, some significantly so. And up until this point, there really hasn't been anything to compete with it on that level (hence the no competition).
I agree with the OP's subject statement: I am entirely enamoured with the IDEA of EVE, and the possibilities this game has. After playing it off and on for 5 years, subbing, cancelling, resubbing, I know its simply missing the factor that I need: and that is a human avatar. And no matter how much I try and fight that and look at the other points of the game that I am enthralled with (the vast universe, the one shard, the economies, the travel, the corps, 0.0, the beautiful graphics, etc. etc.) I will never stick with it because deep down I dont like being a ship 100% of the time. May be shallow, but I cant help it.
If CCP puts in some human avatars that can interact, walk around on stations and planets, etc. I am back full time and all other MMOs are done.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
I do not understand why this would be the case. Will it be some authorized agent of your capsuleer with power of attorney to do things on their behalf? What things will they be able to do that you cannot do already? With CCP already having problems with the increased number of subs and concurrent users, how do you think they will handle all the lurkers partaking in the literal equivalent of a 3D chatroom?
I remember the missing human factor was a big issue leading up to the release of Auto Assault and played a part in killing it (though, that was mainly NCSoft pulling the plug too early).
You say that the thing missing from EVE is being able to see your avatar...
...I ask you then, if you are not looking at yourself in a mirror all day as you go about life - do you feel you are missing something?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
@People who won't play without an avatar
What happens when you're bored of walking around a station?
EVE is still EVE. Being able to walk around and play silly minigames does not change that.
"If all you can say is... "It's awful, it's not innovative, it's ugly, it's blah.." Then you're an unimaginative and unpolished excuse for human life" -eburn
I am playing EVE but I still welcome an idea of having an avatar. I hope in 2011. we'll finally get the taste of Incarna.
Why? What do you hope to be able to do as a humanoid avatar as opposed to your ship avatar? What will it add to the game for you?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
A humanoid avatar can add another dimension to the game which it doesn't already have. Just like any other game elements that add depth for particular playstyles. And that is something that certain people, who aren't necessarily PVP / crafting / mining are looking for in Eve. Adding additional elements to the game won't necessarily kill off what is already in there. They CAN co-exist. This has been proven in other games. Not everything in a game has to be geared towards a select number of playstyles. It can be multi-faceted to cater for many to a satisfactory level.
Virus, it sounds to me like you are either really struggling with concepts that are alien to your own playstyle, or you are just pretending in order to antagonise the discussion. If the former is correct, then my advise is this: not everything in life can be understood by everyone. Just appreciate the fact that these issues are very reason concerns to some people. Thankfully, CCP know there are ways to improve their game.
@Dreathor, don't use derogatory descriptions for things that you don't fully understand. That just shows ignorance and lack of respect and courtesy.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Having a avatar would make it more immersive. Having a cockpit view would make it more immersive. The game would still be the same but at least you would feel like you were 'in' the gameworld. Lets face it, it's hard to get immersed in combat when you watching little squares and triangles flying around you.
I can understand why people like avatars and find it difficult to play w/o one. it isn't a concern of mine, nor is having good looking gear on my avatar important (I'd wear a diaper in game if it had the best stats0 but it is a major point of enjoyment for many folks, and in particular for many women.
I do have to agree though, once the initial fun of an avatar wears off, will the folk who say their enjoyment hinges on this really enjoy the rest of EVE, because that's where I think the real game is.
Maybe so, as mentioned, we can't really understand why people like certain things that we don't, just part of our inividual make up I suppose.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Tarka, I am just trying to find out what people think adding a humanoid avatar will do for them in the game. It is not meant to be antagonistic, but nobody will give a straight answer on the matter. They say the game is missing the human factor. How so? Is having a humanoid looking avatar as opposed to whatever ship you are in as your avatar, that much of a game breaker for them? Having a humanoid avatar that can partake in minigames or loiter around stations will in no way affect what one does in EVE.
You say it will add something to EVE for those that are not necessarily partaking in PVP / manufacturing / mining and I suppose that would include trading and all the other things one does in EVE now. Can you see how that would be akin to my asking that they add spaceships to WoW or superheroes to LotRO? Um, hello - it is EVE; it is one of the most open games out there, but if people are looking to pay $15 a month for a 3D chatroom...well, can you see the point there?
It has nothing to do with playstyle in the least. If I am playing WoW, then I am taking on the role of whatever character I am playing at the time. The character uses spells, swings a sword, or whatever - but it is the character, so I expect the character to be humanoid. If I am playing EVE, well - I knew before hand that I was a capsuleer and that I would be in a ship. My character is in the ship. It is no different than my character being in armor in some other game. I do not get what people do not understand about that.
Having humanoid avatars in STO makes sense, because it fits the lore of the Star Trek Universe. Having humanoid avatars in EVE does not make any sense - it violates the lore. Where are pod pilots the most vulnerable? Outside of their pods. As has been said, they are Space Gods in Goo.
As has been asked before, are people going to be happy with having avatars where they can walk around stations, chit chat, gamble some isk, and then have to return to the ship to be able to do pretty much everything the game requires? Will they be happy on some level perhaps, knowing that under all the windows on their screen as they work the market, production, etc - that instead of there being a ship under all that (which they cannot see) that there is a humanoid avatar (which they cannot see)...?
Do people want to spin humanoid avatars instead of spaceship avatars while stuck in a station?
Yet nobody provides any sort of answer...
...are they hoping that there will be massive changes to the game and opening up missions along the lines of STO where your pilot actually gets out and has to run around to do things for missions - etc?
What is it? Why?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%