You're the one implying that everyone who speaks positively about it is a paid shill. They only stated that they believe that some of the people responding are paid shills.
Parsing my words doesn't change what I said, but nice try.
And he's only stating that because he's suggested it before, since he can't understand why anyone would disagree with his opinion about this F2P model. Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about. This program hasn't even gone live yet, and won't for months. All this constant whining and DOOM and GLOOM is premature. We simply don't know what will happen once this program is officially in place, so it's all just pointless drama and speculation anyhow.
Well, interesting information, and while the items detailed in the OP are innocious enough, its still encouragement to get everyone, even the life time members to start paying more for the game.
Of course, one does not have to pay for any of them to enjoy the game so I think its one of the better F2P systems as it doesn't impart any obvious advantages. (If LOTRO had more PVP it might be a different story)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
"PC Gamer was given access to the full list of cash shop items in the upcoming free-to-play version of Lord of the Rings Online. In addition to the usual cosmetic upgrades and XP boosts, LOTRO will be offering a few more unique purchases, such as unlocking additional auction house slots. Here are full details on three examples of cash shop items we saw during our E3 demo. Keep in mind that this is a beta and the prices are subject to change"
Gift of Lesser Innocence
“Provides the user with a temporary +1 bonus to their Innocence Virtue Rank for one hour.”
Alternatively, players can purchase a permanent boost to virtue
Price: 35 Points – about $0.50
Greater Tome of Deed Acceleration
“Accelerates the rate at which you complete slayer deeds. Deeds for Skirmish lieutenants are not accelerated by this item.”
There will be different tomes for different level characters, but it should double the rate that you complete the slayer deeds
Price: 300 Points – about $4.50
Map to the Misty Mountains
Using this map will transport you to the Misty Mountains, located in the Trollshaws. Maps may only be used once per hour.
Not all maps will be reusable and you’ll need to visit each city once before you’re eligible to buy the map to teleport there.
Price: 100 Points – about $1.50
Pictures at the above link too.
So much for Kate telling us there was no I win button items. All I see is advantage items. Oh well what else should we expect.
"PC Gamer was given access to the full list of cash shop items in the upcoming free-to-play version of Lord of the Rings Online. In addition to the usual cosmetic upgrades and XP boosts, LOTRO will be offering a few more unique purchases, such as unlocking additional auction house slots. Here are full details on three examples of cash shop items we saw during our E3 demo. Keep in mind that this is a beta and the prices are subject to change"
Gift of Lesser Innocence
“Provides the user with a temporary +1 bonus to their Innocence Virtue Rank for one hour.”
Alternatively, players can purchase a permanent boost to virtue
Price: 35 Points – about $0.50
Greater Tome of Deed Acceleration
“Accelerates the rate at which you complete slayer deeds. Deeds for Skirmish lieutenants are not accelerated by this item.”
There will be different tomes for different level characters, but it should double the rate that you complete the slayer deeds
Price: 300 Points – about $4.50
Map to the Misty Mountains
Using this map will transport you to the Misty Mountains, located in the Trollshaws. Maps may only be used once per hour.
Not all maps will be reusable and you’ll need to visit each city once before you’re eligible to buy the map to teleport there.
Price: 100 Points – about $1.50
Pictures at the above link too.
So much for Kate telling us there was no I win button items. All I see is advantage items. Oh well what else should we expect.
How is a fast travel map a game advantage. It's not like it allows you to use it every 5 minutes it's got an hour cooldown on it. Temporary boosts to virtues "oh noes must have that to be ubers!!!*. If you already have your virtues at 10 this is totally useless to you. The only one that I would argue is a valid is the permanent virtue one, but then that's what the tester feedback is for. If enough people are against it then they will take it out.
The deed one is again not really an advantage as you still have to grind out the mobs to get the deed, you just don't have to do it as long and really all you're getting out of it is a virtue point which on the whole aren't all that important compared to other things.
"PC Gamer was given access to the full list of cash shop items in the upcoming free-to-play version of Lord of the Rings Online. In addition to the usual cosmetic upgrades and XP boosts, LOTRO will be offering a few more unique purchases, such as unlocking additional auction house slots. Here are full details on three examples of cash shop items we saw during our E3 demo. Keep in mind that this is a beta and the prices are subject to change"
Gift of Lesser Innocence
“Provides the user with a temporary +1 bonus to their Innocence Virtue Rank for one hour.”
Alternatively, players can purchase a permanent boost to virtue
Price: 35 Points – about $0.50
Greater Tome of Deed Acceleration
“Accelerates the rate at which you complete slayer deeds. Deeds for Skirmish lieutenants are not accelerated by this item.”
There will be different tomes for different level characters, but it should double the rate that you complete the slayer deeds
Price: 300 Points – about $4.50
Map to the Misty Mountains
Using this map will transport you to the Misty Mountains, located in the Trollshaws. Maps may only be used once per hour.
Not all maps will be reusable and you’ll need to visit each city once before you’re eligible to buy the map to teleport there.
Price: 100 Points – about $1.50
Pictures at the above link too.
So much for Kate telling us there was no I win button items. All I see is advantage items. Oh well what else should we expect.
I still think some of these people are paid "damage control" shills working for Turbine / WB.
I mean, it wouldn't be the first time we've seen something like this on gaming forums, now would it??
On the LOTRO forums, they can just lock and delete the "undesirable" threads and posts. They need SOME way to try to control threads on third party sites, though.
Seems more likely that you are being paid by Funcom since they are worried this is going to kill AoC...
ROFLMAO.....no one's worried that LOTRO is going to kill AoC.....especially the people who have come to AoC from LOTRO recently....and rather suddenly.
But why choose Funcom as my "employer", if I were some kinda shill?? Why not Aventurine, or the countless other MMORPG companies I've stuck up for over the years here?
I only suspect some here of being Turbine / WB shills because of their relentless persistance in countering ANY negative opinion of the LOTRO F2P model, while chanting the seemingly endless virtues that this model brings to the table...in a manner that almost seems like a paid advertisement.
I mean, you don't nut-cup a company so enthusiastically unless you have something to gain from it personally.
I still think some of these people are paid "damage control" shills working for Turbine / WB.
I mean, it wouldn't be the first time we've seen something like this on gaming forums, now would it??
On the LOTRO forums, they can just lock and delete the "undesirable" threads and posts. They need SOME way to try to control threads on third party sites, though.
Seems more likely that you are being paid by Funcom since they are worried this is going to kill AoC...
ROFLMAO.....no one's worried that LOTRO is going to kill AoC.....especially the people who have come to AoC from LOTRO recently....and rather suddenly.
But why choose Funcom as my "employer", if I were some kinda shill?? Why not Aventurine, or the countless other MMORPG companies I've stuck up for over the years here?
I only suspect some here of being Turbine / WB shills because of their relentless persistance in countering ANY negative opinion of the LOTRO F2P model, while chanting the seemingly endless virtues that this model brings to the table...in a manner that almost seems like a paid advertisement.
I mean, you don't nut-cup a company so enthusiastically unless you have something to gain from it personally.
Wow I got to say you hit that dead on. There been nothing but the what I call the turbine faith church running around lately shouting down anybody who has anything negative to say about the f2p thing.
Oh thank god. Deed grinding is by far the most boring thing one could do in LotRO. Anything that speeds up that insanely tedious process gets my vote.
And here is the gaurantee that grinds will get worse with F2P cash shop being introduced, because there will be enough people who will pay to avoid them. This will ruin MMOs as the devs will make money from grinds getting worse and worse and the various cash shop items being needed more and more. Sure, it starts out inoculously an dinnocent but it is all about the frog in the water and turning up the heat slowly to a boil.
Well if it's written on Wikipedia it MUST be true! Unfortunately the author of the Wikipedia article completely ignores both human nature and biology.
Individuals are far less likely to be aware of gradual change then sudden change and are far more likely to accept gradual change then sudden change. This is empiricaly true in both the phsyical and psychological sense.
Anyone that's ever been scuba diving or mountain climbing is well aware of the physical phenomina involved.
Note also that the linked Wikipedia page to the boiling frog analogy that tried to claim that the "boiling frog" metaphor was literaly false used the basis for this claim that a number of biologists ventured thier opinion that it was not true.....yet NONE of the quoted biologists attempted to replicate the 18th-19th century experiments which formed the basis for the metaphor...nor could document any experiment that did.... Even though the origional experiment was peer reviewed and replicated in the 19th century.
What passes for understanding of scienctific method these days is truely sad.
Oh thank god. Deed grinding is by far the most boring thing one could do in LotRO. Anything that speeds up that insanely tedious process gets my vote.
And here is the gaurantee that grinds will get worse with F2P cash shop being introduced, because there will be enough people who will pay to avoid them. This will ruin MMOs as the devs will make money from grinds getting worse and worse and the various cash shop items being needed more and more. Sure, it starts out inoculously an dinnocent but it is all about the frog in the water and turning up the heat slowly to a boil.
I know ive pointed this out to you before, yet you seem to just refuse to see anything different than what you already believe, no matte rhow wrong it is.
Ho wthe hell do you think P2P games keep you subbing and paying them? By adding in grinds and timesinks in order to advance. Do you really think they need to make it take several weeks/months to reach level cap or get good gear? NO, but they make it that way why.... so you have to pay the next months sub to keep playing and advancing. P2P devs are JUST as guilty of increasing grinds to milk you for more money as F2P games. Get over it already.
There is a bit of a difference though P2P games put in grinds so that players have something to do if they burn through content quicker then the developer can add it. The P2P models revenue is dependant upon you finding the game ENJOYABLE/INTERESTING enough to renew the subscription for next month. There is no real incentive for the Dev to put in unpleasant grinds if they can avoid them...since thier revenue model is entirely dependant upon the player finding the game FUN/Interesting. Grinds exist simply because Dev's can't produce content quickly enough for the players to consume and they need to do something to satisfy the achiever playstyle players. In other words, the Dev's are TRYING to make the grinds fun/interesting for the player (sense of reward upon accomplishment)...that's thier incentive...they just usualy do a lousy job at realizing that incentive.
F2P games are entirely different. The F2P game PURPOSEFULLY introduces elements into thier game that a player finds annoying, unfun, boring or limiting. The F2P games revenue is DEPENDANT on selling the players remedies to remove the annoying/boring/unfun aspects of the game for cash. The F2P Dev has a direct monetary incentive to introduce negative elements of thier game play so that they can earn revenue by selling remedies to them.
Analogy:
P2P - I am selling you a rafting trip. My revenue comes from you enjoying the rafting trip and booking another rafting trip with me next month because you had fun and enjoyed your experience. Part of the fun of rafting does involve an element of danger. You MAY fall out of the Raft and get injured.... I don't WANT that to happen to you as that will negatively impact your experience (and you won't buy from me again). However, the risk goes with the territory. Included in the price of the Rafting trip, I'm bringing medical supplies and pain killers to remedy your injury in case that happens. I don't WANT you to need them...but you may.
F2P - I provide FREE rafting trips. You will want to come on my rafting trip because it is fun and you enjoyed your expereince. I make no profit from you coming on my Rafting trip. However, I DO sell equipment, including medical supplies and pain killers to my rafters. This is how I make my profit. There are rapids in the river and you MAY fall out of the raft. That risk is inherent with Rafting. IF you fall out of the raft and are injured, I have medical equipment and pain killers that I can SELL to you in order to remedy your situation. I profit from selling you this equipment. If my rafters don't buy this equipment, I don't earn a revenue.
1) Which rafting guide has an incentive for their customers to get injured?
2) Which rafting guide would you PREFER to book a trip with?
Oh no, there is a Wikipedia page bemoaning a term?
No. The point is that you're engaging in a slippery slope fallacy. You're so convinced that this is nothing but DOOM and GLOOM and the End of the Gaming World As We Know It that you've already decided how things are going to progress.
The items that are on sale are convenience items at best. The other items -- extra bank slots, no gold cap, etc. -- can easily be obtained simply by subscribing to the game, as well as buying the two expansion packs. There's no need to use the cash shop for them at all.
Also, those gold and inventory restrictions only apply to new Free or Premium players. Former subscribers who come back to the game and play for free are made Premium players, but because they used to be VIP players, they don't have the money caps or storage caps that new Free players do.
Bah, the fallacy excuses used to dismiss arguments that are valid are well overplayed. F2P, particuarly Turbine's hybrid model, is a perfect example of the idea of a slippery slope. It starts out largely innocently providing different options for access to the game but over time mroe and more things that where included in the sub price are sold on the cash shop or are only available through ever increasing grinds (as I pointed out has started happening in DDO already). As for the F2P model in general, it is undeniable that the cash shop drives game development in a way that is often contrary to what is best for gameplay because the developers have an understandable desire to increase cash shop sales and make more revenue.
Originally posted by Lidane
Originally posted by Ceridith
It's not a slippery slope fallacy. It's common sense purely from a business perspective when you start going down that road.
Of course it's a fallacy. Just because there is a new price model doesn't mean that everything he's predicting is automatically going to come true, yet that's his premise.
I showed clear examples in their other hybrid game, DDO, of how things that where included in a sub where not not included and available only through cash shop purchase or long gameplay grind. So I didn't just say the model is a slippery slope I showed examples of them slipping down the slope as well.
Originally posted by Ceridith
Because it makes them more money to charge players to avoid it.
So if it makes them more money to offer players the opporunity to pay to mitigate a grind they do not enjoy, then it also makes sense from a business perspective to make more grind content that was long and tedious, so they could then also add ways for players to pay to bypass them.
It's not a slippery slope fallacy. It's common sense purely from a business perspective when you start going down that road.
Bingo. This is why there is a move to F2P and while Turbine's hybrid F2P model is less offensive than traditional F2P DDO already shows it sliding down that slope, and gamers can rest assured that once the stigma of F2P is gone it will be worse.
Originally posted by Minsc
Originally posted by AgtSmith
Originally posted by Minsc
Yeah except what he is failing to mention is that ALL of that is available in game without paying a cent in the DDO store if you sub to the game. Hell much of it is available if you play F2P. Don't try arguing with him he won't budge even if you present hard evidence.
It is only available with very, very long grinds - even for subscription folks. By example, I played a number of months of DDO since launch and in all the time (at least 5 characters to cap and more to mid to upper levels) I only ever looted one +2 tome and a handful of +1 tomes. So yes, I can get them in game playing but the clear advantage is to players who buy them, particuarly to those buying them on new characters where the advantage of them is even greater. Another example, when the game was P2P a new class, monk, was added at no additional cost (no expansion to buy or anything), but when the game went F2P a new class was added and low and behold it is on the cash shop for more than a VIPs monthly alotment of points and to unlock it playing takes a massive in game grind of favor. So it is clear, even with DDO, that subscribers pay the same but get less and the escalation of grinds to encourage cash shop sales exists.
And once again I need to point out that the grind is not that long and that the class upgrade is the fourth of the total favor upgrades, following the unlocking of 32 point character builds and it only takes a further 750 favor to go from that reward to the favored soul reward. I'll also once again point out that the 2500 favor required is half of the total favor available in the game meaning that anyone who's played through most of the content available in DDO on normal will easily achieve within a week or two of playing. In comparison grinding to kindred status for any one faction in LOTRO takes at least that long if not longer as they mostly rely on quest completion or random barter item drops.
Your assumption that they purposefully put the class unlock at 2500 favor to make people buy it instead is simply tinfoil hatterie.
You are being absolutely dishonest to suggest it is not a long grind to 2500 favor. Sure, vet powergamers can blow through it in weeks but average gamers will easily spend a month or two earning 2500 favor and those who are new to the game or don't have high level toons already will also struggle to earn that much favor COMPARED to the old system where on logging in everyone had access to the new class. A clear difference due to F2P and a perfect example of how what was included will be grind or buy even for VIPs.
Originally posted by DonnieBrasco
Originally posted by Lidane
Originally posted by AgtSmith
Oh no, there is a Wikipedia page bemoaning a term?
No. The point is that you're engaging in a slippery slope fallacy. You're so convinced that this is nothing but DOOM and GLOOM and the End of the Gaming World As We Know It that you've already decided how things are going to progress.
The items that are on sale are convenience items at best. The other items -- extra bank slots, no gold cap, etc. -- can easily be obtained simply by subscribing to the game, as well as buying the two expansion packs. There's no need to use the cash shop for them at all.
Also, those gold and inventory restrictions only apply to new Free or Premium players. Former subscribers who come back to the game and play for free are made Premium players, but because they used to be VIP players, they don't have the money caps or storage caps that new Free players do.
It was funny to watch him yelling the same DOOM and GLOOM 3 years ago, predicting immediate or close to immediate demise of LOTRO. I guess some things never change.
Back in 3 years for a good laugh
DB
So you are just inventing things? I never predicted doom or gloom for LotRO or said it was going to close. And I haven't said doom or gloom for LotRO with regards to this F2P move either. I have argued that the whole move to F2P is doom and gloom for gamers as once the stigma is gone it is going to cost everyone far more to play these games ungimped than it does under the current model, and for those insistent on not paying the grinds will just get worse and worse until they quit the genre or drop some cash in the cash shop.
There is a bit of a difference though P2P games put in grinds so that players have something to do if they burn through content quicker then the developer can add it. The P2P models revenue is dependant upon you finding the game ENJOYABLE/INTERESTING enough to renew the subscription for next month. There is no real incentive for the Dev to put in unpleasant grinds if they can avoid them...since thier revenue model is entirely dependant upon the player finding the game FUN/Interesting. Grinds exist simply because Dev's can't produce content quickly enough for the players to consume and they need to do something to satisfy the achiever playstyle players. In other words, the Dev's are TRYING to make the grinds fun/interesting for the player (sense of reward upon accomplishment)...that's thier incentive...they just usualy do a lousy job at realizing that incentive.
F2P games are entirely different. The F2P game PURPOSEFULLY introduces elements into thier game that a player finds annoying, unfun, boring or limiting. The F2P games revenue is DEPENDANT on selling the players remedies to remove the annoying/boring/unfun aspects of the game for cash. The F2P Dev has a direct monetary incentive to introduce negative elements of thier game play so that they can earn revenue by selling remedies to them.
Exactly right. F2P monetizes bad gameplay, in essence - devs make money when you are not enjoying something or not getting something you want/need. This is near polar opposite from the way it is in P2P.
Originally posted by Kyleran
Well, interesting information, and while the items detailed in the OP are innocious enough, its still encouragement to get everyone, even the life time members to start paying more for the game.
Of course the stuff in the OP, the preview, are innocent - but that is my point. That is not all they will sell in the cash shop - anyone who believes that is naive to the point of ridiculousness. Look to DDO, look where it started and where it s now - it is a slippery slop of moving more and more to traditional F2P and using the VIP/sub thing to soften the blow and get people used to it.
And let me point out how ridiculous the article the OP references is - as if those few items are all that are going to be in the cash shop. No way, no how, no chance - look to DDO, that is what is coming for LotRO. Full on cash shop buying just about anything including buying things that where previously included to subscribers, even if you are lifer/VIP.
It's not a slippery slope fallacy. It's common sense purely from a business perspective when you start going down that road.
Of course it's a fallacy. Just because there is a new price model doesn't mean that everything he's predicting is automatically going to come true, yet that's his premise.
When you look at the price model that LOTRO is putting out here, the ideal is for a free player to become a paid subscriber. Paid subscribers (i.e., the VIP tier) get everything without restriction. If your long term goal is to attract and retain paid subscribers who will play your game for as long as possible, why in the hell would you create ways for players to avoid playing your game? That makes no sense.
We've seen items that help to make getting deeds faster, or which aid in travel, but only AFTER you've been to that location once on your own. There's been nothing to suggest that they'd do something to minimize the time it takes to play the game. I'm pretty sure that nothing like that exists in DDO, so why would they do that here?
Lidane,
The problem with your arguement is that a "Slippery Slope" arguement (inspite of what the Wikipedia author might try to portray) is OFTEN factualy true ...although it does not NECCESARLY HAVE to be true.
It is factualy true in both biology and psychology that living organisms are less likely to percieve and react to gradual changes then they are to sudden changes.
There are limits to this of course, but the basic principle is quite sound.
For instance...no matter how gradualy I do it....I will never be able to adapt to surviving in a full vacume. However, if I'm climbing a mountain...I'm going to be able to function much better by changing my elevation from sea level to 14,000 ft over the course of 3 days then I would doing the same thing in 3 seconds.
In terms of LOTRO, look at it from the perspecive of a Warner Bro's executive.... Why would you NOT want to get your subscribers (VIP Tier) to purchase items ON TOP of thier subscription? Why would that NOT be a desirable goal for you?
Now if that WERE your goal? What would be your most likely strategy to pursue it?
AmazingAveryAge of Conan AdvocateMemberUncommonPosts: 7,188
My Wife who is a lifetime subber to lotro found the story and I just posted as it was new. She is happy to continue to play lotro in the form it will turn into. She and pretty much all of the large kin she is in will to and looking forward to the new content. Basically her opinion is a wait and see what happens one. Biggest concern they have right now is the instance grind which is totally against casual gamers + legendary items being useless compared to raid items. /shrug.
I think most people share the opinion of not having things you can buy like gear etc that will improve you in game, additional content seems ok if it can be gotten with the points you get from being a lifer.
In terms of LOTRO, look at it from the perspecive of a Warner Bro's executive.... Why would you NOT want to get your subscribers (VIP Tier) to purchase items ON TOP of thier subscription? Why would that NOT be a desirable goal for you?
I think this is the obvious thing people are missing, of course they want to make more money - even from current subscribers but also from new people. They should want thing and nobody begrudges them pursuing things to acheive this. That said, the problem with F2p is not that it is in and of itself evil it is that it gives those who control gameplay reasons to make gameplay more grindy, more inconvenient, and more difficult for reasons other than what is best for gameplay - for reasons of increasing revenue. Once you have a cash shop, in full on F2P or Turbine's hybrid F2P, there is a direct incentive between game inconvenience and revenue in so far as the more difficult or time consuming somthing is to acehieve in game the more there are people who will pay to get it now or get it sooner or quicker. Even with the best intentions this represents a slippery slope whereby gameplay design can easily be corrupted by the balancesheets rather than the gameplay experts.
As for the idea that the best way to get to a point where you can be full on F2P when you are currently P2P, easily that is the hybrid model - especially in markets like NA where F2P is so widely stigmatized. This itself also represents a slippery slope, accurately and not as a fallacy, because once you start introducing a cash shop the P2P model necessarily gives way to the F2P model because in P2P it is all about the game being enjoyable enough to people for them to buy access (full access) for another month where in F2P, even a hybrid, the model is about getting people to buy convenience and/or acheivement. The two models are incompatible so a hybrid of them is absolutely a slippery slope as the game will have to slide towards the F2P. Consider anohter entertainment form, movies and TV. TV is largely add supported while movies are pay. There is no compatible way to merge these as the second you stick a commercial break in the movie theater you necessarily diminish the experience for moviegoers (even those who might not complain). Same thing here - the necessary structure of F2P (selling ways around grinds, selling convenience items, etc) diminishes the all access elements of P2P. Now look back to reality, to DDO - you can see this workign there. In P2P DDO a new class (monk) was introduced and included for subscribers at no additional cost - under F2P hybrid DDO they added a new class (Favored Soul) and it was not included for subscribers and only available on cash shop (for more than a VIPs monthly alotment of points, btw) or through long in game grind of 2500 favor. This is EXACTLY the point of the slippery slop comments - what was 'included' in P2P becomes a buy it or grind it item, even for subscribers, under the Hybrid F2P model. So the academic arguments of fallacies and wahtnot are pointless, you can look to DDO and see it sliding slowly down the slope and see subscribers having to buy or play for things that where included previously.
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Now if that WERE your goal? What would be your most likely strategy to pursue it?
I should think this is obvious - yo ucome up with a Hybrid F2P model to attract all the non P2P types right away and to acclimate the current P2P base to the new model. This is what Turbine is doing and already in DDO you can see it more and more becoming a full on traditional F2P cash shop game in terms of the items in the shop and way new things are introduced. I would wager after LotRO F2P is out you will see DDO announcing how popular the F2P stuff is so they are discontinuing the subscription or altering it greatly and once that is done they do the same with LotRO and by the time the Harry Potter MMO is out it will be more F2P than hybrid if they even offer any kind of sub or monthly bundle type thing. But even if they keep the sub it is clear they intenend to have many things that VIPs will need to spend or grind for going forward.
Originally posted by AmazingAvery
My Wife who is a lifetime subber to lotro found the story and I just posted as it was new. She is happy to continue to play lotro in the form it will turn into. She and pretty much all of the large kin she is in will to and looking forward to the new content. Basically her opinion is a wait and see what happens one. Biggest concern they have right now is the instance grind which is totally against casual gamers + legendary items being useless compared to raid items. /shrug.
I think most people share the opinion of not having things you can buy like gear etc that will improve you in game, additional content seems ok if it can be gotten with the points you get from being a lifer.
A very reasonably held and stated opinon. However, that said, here is what I do not get. When those of use 'warning' people about this move point out things showing that Turbine themselves in DDO is already selling things previously included, selling character power items (tomes, which are 10% to 20% boosts in stats in a game all about stats, in quest instance reserections, etc), and generally cash shopping items and whatnot like any F2P game do you still take the attitude of 'wait and see' and generally giving them the benifit of the doubt that they won't do these things? Heck, did you guys not catch what they did with the SuperRewards Offer Wall? All I am saying is that Turbine, evne pre WB aquisition, has shown they are not going down this road with perfect intentions or with promise to not do the things you seem willing to wait and see on - and now that they are gobbled up by WB it seems even more likely that they will push forward even harder.
The plus virtue thing for a short time is pretty meh. The +virtue for good removes some grind.
The double speed of deed grinding is pretty great. Let me tell you, for certain deeds, you grinding mobs for hours and hours for one virtue. And if you had more then one character.....
This also meant going into instances people hardly do, just to kill mobs that the instance doesn't have anywhere near enough of in a couple runs.
But does seem like you can buy them with points if subbed, so won't matter either way.
The plus virtue thing for a short time is pretty meh. The +virtue for good removes some grind.
The double speed of deed grinding is pretty great. Let me tell you, for certain deeds, you grinding mobs for hours and hours for one virtue. And if you had more then one character.....
This also meant going into instances people hardly do, just to kill mobs that the instance doesn't have anywhere near enough of in a couple runs.
But does seem like you can buy them with points if subbed, so won't matter either way.
If you think what is show in the article referenced by the OP is all that will be sold in LotRO cash shop you are absolutely insane. They will sell everything in the cash shop, EVERYTHING - just like they do in DDO. And over time they will sell more and more stuff just like they have in DDO. That article is absolutely a shill from Turbine just to try to each the initial shock of a cash shop and the people talking about it. But seriosuly, are you really so naive to believe they are goign F2P, hybrid or otherwise, and just selling the few thigns listed in that article? Please, wake up.
The plus virtue thing for a short time is pretty meh. The +virtue for good removes some grind.
The double speed of deed grinding is pretty great. Let me tell you, for certain deeds, you grinding mobs for hours and hours for one virtue. And if you had more then one character.....
This also meant going into instances people hardly do, just to kill mobs that the instance doesn't have anywhere near enough of in a couple runs.
But does seem like you can buy them with points if subbed, so won't matter either way.
If you think what is show in the article referenced by the OP is all that will be sold in LotRO cash shop you are absolutely insane. They will sell everything in the cash shop, EVERYTHING - just like they do in DDO. And over time they will sell more and more stuff just like they have in DDO. That article is absolutely a shill from Turbine just to try to each the initial shock of a cash shop and the people talking about it. But seriosuly, are you really so naive to believe they are goign F2P, hybrid or otherwise, and just selling the few thigns listed in that article? Please, wake up.
Everything......EVERYTHING...E...VER.....Y...TH.....ING!!!!!!! The sky will fall. Dogs and Cats fornicating together. Up is down and down is up. The end of the world....the end I say.
I just find it entertaining that the pro F2P people are so rabidly trying to defend that there's aboslutely no way the Turbine is going to go too far with their item shop.
Will they? Of course no one knows for sure. I'm positive that they don't even know for sure just how far they'll end up pushing the item shop. Until it happens, it's all just speculation one way or the other.
But considering past experience and basic human behavior, if you allow an inch, they'll want a mile.
They're in it to make money, so why after changing the game into a model with an item shop, specifically with the intent to make more money, why wouldn't they try to exploit the concept to the fullest that they believe they can get away with?
The burden of proof is on them not taking the cash shop too far, because there are so many reasons why they might take it too far.
Nice to see that guilty to proven innocent is alive and well today. Frankly I do not think they have anything to prove to you or anyone but people that are interested in playing this game in its F2P model. I highly doubt they care about the whiny minority of MMO'ers that oppose shops in their games. More people buy gold, items, and powerleveling than people do not. Why would they care about your again? I can not think of a reason.
I just find it entertaining that the pro F2P people are so rabidly trying to defend that there's aboslutely no way the Turbine is going to go too far with their item shop.
Will they? Of course no one knows for sure. I'm positive that they don't even know for sure just how far they'll end up pushing the item shop. Until it happens, it's all just speculation one way or the other.
But considering past experience and basic human behavior, if you allow an inch, they'll want a mile.
They're in it to make money, so why after changing the game into a model with an item shop, specifically with the intent to make more money, why wouldn't they try to exploit the concept to the fullest that they believe they can get away with?
The burden of proof is on them not taking the cash shop too far, because there are so many reasons why they might take it too far.
Ultimately a fair post and opinon. I would only suggest that we need not speculate and need not wait and see - we can look to DDO to see that they are moving fast and far towards a typical F2P cash shop AND that the idea that a sub in their hybrid model gets you everything it gets you now is factually not true. What you are hearing now is marketing spin - they know F2P has a stigma and they are obviously trying to minimize how much will be on the shop - but DDO shows clearly far, far more will be monitized in the cash shop then the marleting lets on and the idea that the sub makes it all the same as it ever was it ludicrous.
Originally posted by Horusra
Nice to see that guilty to proven innocent is alive and well today. Frankly I do not think they have anything to prove to you or anyone but people that are interested in playing this game in its F2P model. I highly doubt they care about the whiny minority of MMO'ers that oppose shops in their games. More people buy gold, items, and powerleveling than people do not. Why would they care about your again? I can not think of a reason.
So proving the fallacy of the idea that a subscription under the new model gets you all it got you under the old (P2P) model is 'guilty until proven innocent'? DDO has been out under this model, also from Turbine, for some time - it is their test bed - so we can see what they intend very clearly. And it is a fact that a sub under this system is nto getting you what it got you before as it is clear that just like any F2P game they are selling avoidance of grinds and convenience, which necessarily means they have incentive to design more grinds and inconvenience.
Nice to see that guilty to proven innocent is alive and well today. Frankly I do not think they have anything to prove to you or anyone but people that are interested in playing this game in its F2P model. I highly doubt they care about the whiny minority of MMO'ers that oppose shops in their games. More people buy gold, items, and powerleveling than people do not. Why would they care about your again? I can not think of a reason.
When it comes to greed, every for profit company is guilty of it until proven otherwise. The pursuit of profit is in fact, the entire purpose for such companies to exist.
Nice to see that guilty to proven innocent is alive and well today. Frankly I do not think they have anything to prove to you or anyone but people that are interested in playing this game in its F2P model. I highly doubt they care about the whiny minority of MMO'ers that oppose shops in their games. More people buy gold, items, and powerleveling than people do not. Why would they care about your again? I can not think of a reason.
Actualy, I think they have quite alot to proove to me, since I happen to be a current paying customer of thiers (have been since LOTRO started). At least, they have quite alot to proove if they wish to continue to keep my business.
Why would they care?
- My money is as good to them as anyone elses.
- In business, it's a generaly accepted axiom that it costs 5-10 times as much to obtain a new customer as it does to retain an existing one.
- Each and every player they have playing thier game actualy COSTS Turbine a certain amount of money each month to maintain. They already KNOW (given my current status with them) that I am willing to pay them more money then I cost them. In other words they KNOW they are able to profit from me. How many F2P players that holds true for is a complete and utter crapshoot. If Turbine guessing wrong about how much the average F2P will be willing to spend in THIER item shop...They will be operating at a loss.
- I am a LONG TERM customer of thiers, I am a reliable long term source of revenue for them. It remains to be seen how long they will be able to retain the F2P players that they might attract.
- They have don't KNOW how well a F2P/Hybrid model will work in LOTRO. They are BETTING that it will be proffitable based upon thier experience in DDO. However, since this game and it's audience are quite different then DDO....it remains to be seen if that bet will pay off. Do the words "New Coke" have any meaning to you?
As far as "more people buying gold, items and power leveling then do not", I can make up as many unsubstantiated claims as the next guy. I'd hazard to say that NO ONE in the industry is in a position to access the data required to accurately make that assertion accross the market as a whole. Furthermore, I'd guess that many Developers don't even have a good handle on those metrics in thier OWN existing games. Furthermore even if that metric were true in general, it doesn't mean a whole lot as to how well going F2P will work out for Turbine in THIS particular game Just because KFC makes alot of money selling chicken doesn't mean that YOU will make alot of money by opeining up a chicken place. The Devil, very much is in the details.
Finaly, yes....businesses generaly accept that the onus IS on them to prove to thier customers that they can be trusted with those customers business... Do the words "Brand Reputation" have any meaning for you?
Turbine HAD a pretty decent reputation as a developer back a few years ago.... However that reputation HAS taken quite a number of hits in recent years..... Not the least of which is how this last little move went down. I won't even go into the reputation of thier new parent company...Warner Bros.
Frankly, in my book, Turbine is on probation. If I weren't so attached to LOTRO from my current ties to it...this move probably would have been enough to make me bail. As it is...I'm not quite ready to call it quits...but I WILL be watching what they are doing like a hawk..... and frankly I ALREADY don't like what I'm hearing and seeing them do in regards this move.
The plus virtue thing for a short time is pretty meh. The +virtue for good removes some grind.
The double speed of deed grinding is pretty great. Let me tell you, for certain deeds, you grinding mobs for hours and hours for one virtue. And if you had more then one character.....
This also meant going into instances people hardly do, just to kill mobs that the instance doesn't have anywhere near enough of in a couple runs.
But does seem like you can buy them with points if subbed, so won't matter either way.
If you think what is show in the article referenced by the OP is all that will be sold in LotRO cash shop you are absolutely insane. They will sell everything in the cash shop, EVERYTHING - just like they do in DDO. And over time they will sell more and more stuff just like they have in DDO. That article is absolutely a shill from Turbine just to try to each the initial shock of a cash shop and the people talking about it. But seriosuly, are you really so naive to believe they are goign F2P, hybrid or otherwise, and just selling the few thigns listed in that article? Please, wake up.
Except they don't sell everything in the ddo item shop. I can't get +5 mythril full plate armor or shields. I can't buy a +5 vorpal knopesh or +3 or +4 tomes or any of the actual decent loot you would aquire past level 10 in the game from chests.
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
That's easy I'll tell you:
How much do VIP's HAVE to pay to get access to ALL content in game: $0 besides their monthly sub.
How much do VIP's HAVe to pay to remain competative ingame: $0 besides their monthly sub.
Comments
Parsing my words doesn't change what I said, but nice try.
And he's only stating that because he's suggested it before, since he can't understand why anyone would disagree with his opinion about this F2P model. Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about. This program hasn't even gone live yet, and won't for months. All this constant whining and DOOM and GLOOM is premature. We simply don't know what will happen once this program is officially in place, so it's all just pointless drama and speculation anyhow.
Well, interesting information, and while the items detailed in the OP are innocious enough, its still encouragement to get everyone, even the life time members to start paying more for the game.
Of course, one does not have to pay for any of them to enjoy the game so I think its one of the better F2P systems as it doesn't impart any obvious advantages. (If LOTRO had more PVP it might be a different story)
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So much for Kate telling us there was no I win button items. All I see is advantage items. Oh well what else should we expect.
How is a fast travel map a game advantage. It's not like it allows you to use it every 5 minutes it's got an hour cooldown on it. Temporary boosts to virtues "oh noes must have that to be ubers!!!*. If you already have your virtues at 10 this is totally useless to you. The only one that I would argue is a valid is the permanent virtue one, but then that's what the tester feedback is for. If enough people are against it then they will take it out.
The deed one is again not really an advantage as you still have to grind out the mobs to get the deed, you just don't have to do it as long and really all you're getting out of it is a virtue point which on the whole aren't all that important compared to other things.
Those are I win buttons???? wow, er ok.
ROFLMAO.....no one's worried that LOTRO is going to kill AoC.....especially the people who have come to AoC from LOTRO recently....and rather suddenly.
But why choose Funcom as my "employer", if I were some kinda shill?? Why not Aventurine, or the countless other MMORPG companies I've stuck up for over the years here?
I only suspect some here of being Turbine / WB shills because of their relentless persistance in countering ANY negative opinion of the LOTRO F2P model, while chanting the seemingly endless virtues that this model brings to the table...in a manner that almost seems like a paid advertisement.
I mean, you don't nut-cup a company so enthusiastically unless you have something to gain from it personally.
Wow I got to say you hit that dead on. There been nothing but the what I call the turbine faith church running around lately shouting down anybody who has anything negative to say about the f2p thing.
Well if it's written on Wikipedia it MUST be true! Unfortunately the author of the Wikipedia article completely ignores both human nature and biology.
Individuals are far less likely to be aware of gradual change then sudden change and are far more likely to accept gradual change then sudden change. This is empiricaly true in both the phsyical and psychological sense.
Anyone that's ever been scuba diving or mountain climbing is well aware of the physical phenomina involved.
Note also that the linked Wikipedia page to the boiling frog analogy that tried to claim that the "boiling frog" metaphor was literaly false used the basis for this claim that a number of biologists ventured thier opinion that it was not true.....yet NONE of the quoted biologists attempted to replicate the 18th-19th century experiments which formed the basis for the metaphor...nor could document any experiment that did.... Even though the origional experiment was peer reviewed and replicated in the 19th century.
What passes for understanding of scienctific method these days is truely sad.
There is a bit of a difference though P2P games put in grinds so that players have something to do if they burn through content quicker then the developer can add it. The P2P models revenue is dependant upon you finding the game ENJOYABLE/INTERESTING enough to renew the subscription for next month. There is no real incentive for the Dev to put in unpleasant grinds if they can avoid them...since thier revenue model is entirely dependant upon the player finding the game FUN/Interesting. Grinds exist simply because Dev's can't produce content quickly enough for the players to consume and they need to do something to satisfy the achiever playstyle players. In other words, the Dev's are TRYING to make the grinds fun/interesting for the player (sense of reward upon accomplishment)...that's thier incentive...they just usualy do a lousy job at realizing that incentive.
F2P games are entirely different. The F2P game PURPOSEFULLY introduces elements into thier game that a player finds annoying, unfun, boring or limiting. The F2P games revenue is DEPENDANT on selling the players remedies to remove the annoying/boring/unfun aspects of the game for cash. The F2P Dev has a direct monetary incentive to introduce negative elements of thier game play so that they can earn revenue by selling remedies to them.
Analogy:
P2P - I am selling you a rafting trip. My revenue comes from you enjoying the rafting trip and booking another rafting trip with me next month because you had fun and enjoyed your experience. Part of the fun of rafting does involve an element of danger. You MAY fall out of the Raft and get injured.... I don't WANT that to happen to you as that will negatively impact your experience (and you won't buy from me again). However, the risk goes with the territory. Included in the price of the Rafting trip, I'm bringing medical supplies and pain killers to remedy your injury in case that happens. I don't WANT you to need them...but you may.
F2P - I provide FREE rafting trips. You will want to come on my rafting trip because it is fun and you enjoyed your expereince. I make no profit from you coming on my Rafting trip. However, I DO sell equipment, including medical supplies and pain killers to my rafters. This is how I make my profit. There are rapids in the river and you MAY fall out of the raft. That risk is inherent with Rafting. IF you fall out of the raft and are injured, I have medical equipment and pain killers that I can SELL to you in order to remedy your situation. I profit from selling you this equipment. If my rafters don't buy this equipment, I don't earn a revenue.
1) Which rafting guide has an incentive for their customers to get injured?
2) Which rafting guide would you PREFER to book a trip with?
Bah, the fallacy excuses used to dismiss arguments that are valid are well overplayed. F2P, particuarly Turbine's hybrid model, is a perfect example of the idea of a slippery slope. It starts out largely innocently providing different options for access to the game but over time mroe and more things that where included in the sub price are sold on the cash shop or are only available through ever increasing grinds (as I pointed out has started happening in DDO already). As for the F2P model in general, it is undeniable that the cash shop drives game development in a way that is often contrary to what is best for gameplay because the developers have an understandable desire to increase cash shop sales and make more revenue.
I showed clear examples in their other hybrid game, DDO, of how things that where included in a sub where not not included and available only through cash shop purchase or long gameplay grind. So I didn't just say the model is a slippery slope I showed examples of them slipping down the slope as well.
Bingo. This is why there is a move to F2P and while Turbine's hybrid F2P model is less offensive than traditional F2P DDO already shows it sliding down that slope, and gamers can rest assured that once the stigma of F2P is gone it will be worse.
You are being absolutely dishonest to suggest it is not a long grind to 2500 favor. Sure, vet powergamers can blow through it in weeks but average gamers will easily spend a month or two earning 2500 favor and those who are new to the game or don't have high level toons already will also struggle to earn that much favor COMPARED to the old system where on logging in everyone had access to the new class. A clear difference due to F2P and a perfect example of how what was included will be grind or buy even for VIPs.
So you are just inventing things? I never predicted doom or gloom for LotRO or said it was going to close. And I haven't said doom or gloom for LotRO with regards to this F2P move either. I have argued that the whole move to F2P is doom and gloom for gamers as once the stigma is gone it is going to cost everyone far more to play these games ungimped than it does under the current model, and for those insistent on not paying the grinds will just get worse and worse until they quit the genre or drop some cash in the cash shop.
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Exactly right. F2P monetizes bad gameplay, in essence - devs make money when you are not enjoying something or not getting something you want/need. This is near polar opposite from the way it is in P2P.
Of course the stuff in the OP, the preview, are innocent - but that is my point. That is not all they will sell in the cash shop - anyone who believes that is naive to the point of ridiculousness. Look to DDO, look where it started and where it s now - it is a slippery slop of moving more and more to traditional F2P and using the VIP/sub thing to soften the blow and get people used to it.
And let me point out how ridiculous the article the OP references is - as if those few items are all that are going to be in the cash shop. No way, no how, no chance - look to DDO, that is what is coming for LotRO. Full on cash shop buying just about anything including buying things that where previously included to subscribers, even if you are lifer/VIP.
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Lidane,
The problem with your arguement is that a "Slippery Slope" arguement (inspite of what the Wikipedia author might try to portray) is OFTEN factualy true ...although it does not NECCESARLY HAVE to be true.
It is factualy true in both biology and psychology that living organisms are less likely to percieve and react to gradual changes then they are to sudden changes.
There are limits to this of course, but the basic principle is quite sound.
For instance...no matter how gradualy I do it....I will never be able to adapt to surviving in a full vacume. However, if I'm climbing a mountain...I'm going to be able to function much better by changing my elevation from sea level to 14,000 ft over the course of 3 days then I would doing the same thing in 3 seconds.
In terms of LOTRO, look at it from the perspecive of a Warner Bro's executive.... Why would you NOT want to get your subscribers (VIP Tier) to purchase items ON TOP of thier subscription? Why would that NOT be a desirable goal for you?
Now if that WERE your goal? What would be your most likely strategy to pursue it?
My Wife who is a lifetime subber to lotro found the story and I just posted as it was new. She is happy to continue to play lotro in the form it will turn into. She and pretty much all of the large kin she is in will to and looking forward to the new content. Basically her opinion is a wait and see what happens one. Biggest concern they have right now is the instance grind which is totally against casual gamers + legendary items being useless compared to raid items. /shrug.
I think most people share the opinion of not having things you can buy like gear etc that will improve you in game, additional content seems ok if it can be gotten with the points you get from being a lifer.
I think this is the obvious thing people are missing, of course they want to make more money - even from current subscribers but also from new people. They should want thing and nobody begrudges them pursuing things to acheive this. That said, the problem with F2p is not that it is in and of itself evil it is that it gives those who control gameplay reasons to make gameplay more grindy, more inconvenient, and more difficult for reasons other than what is best for gameplay - for reasons of increasing revenue. Once you have a cash shop, in full on F2P or Turbine's hybrid F2P, there is a direct incentive between game inconvenience and revenue in so far as the more difficult or time consuming somthing is to acehieve in game the more there are people who will pay to get it now or get it sooner or quicker. Even with the best intentions this represents a slippery slope whereby gameplay design can easily be corrupted by the balancesheets rather than the gameplay experts.
As for the idea that the best way to get to a point where you can be full on F2P when you are currently P2P, easily that is the hybrid model - especially in markets like NA where F2P is so widely stigmatized. This itself also represents a slippery slope, accurately and not as a fallacy, because once you start introducing a cash shop the P2P model necessarily gives way to the F2P model because in P2P it is all about the game being enjoyable enough to people for them to buy access (full access) for another month where in F2P, even a hybrid, the model is about getting people to buy convenience and/or acheivement. The two models are incompatible so a hybrid of them is absolutely a slippery slope as the game will have to slide towards the F2P. Consider anohter entertainment form, movies and TV. TV is largely add supported while movies are pay. There is no compatible way to merge these as the second you stick a commercial break in the movie theater you necessarily diminish the experience for moviegoers (even those who might not complain). Same thing here - the necessary structure of F2P (selling ways around grinds, selling convenience items, etc) diminishes the all access elements of P2P. Now look back to reality, to DDO - you can see this workign there. In P2P DDO a new class (monk) was introduced and included for subscribers at no additional cost - under F2P hybrid DDO they added a new class (Favored Soul) and it was not included for subscribers and only available on cash shop (for more than a VIPs monthly alotment of points, btw) or through long in game grind of 2500 favor. This is EXACTLY the point of the slippery slop comments - what was 'included' in P2P becomes a buy it or grind it item, even for subscribers, under the Hybrid F2P model. So the academic arguments of fallacies and wahtnot are pointless, you can look to DDO and see it sliding slowly down the slope and see subscribers having to buy or play for things that where included previously.
I should think this is obvious - yo ucome up with a Hybrid F2P model to attract all the non P2P types right away and to acclimate the current P2P base to the new model. This is what Turbine is doing and already in DDO you can see it more and more becoming a full on traditional F2P cash shop game in terms of the items in the shop and way new things are introduced. I would wager after LotRO F2P is out you will see DDO announcing how popular the F2P stuff is so they are discontinuing the subscription or altering it greatly and once that is done they do the same with LotRO and by the time the Harry Potter MMO is out it will be more F2P than hybrid if they even offer any kind of sub or monthly bundle type thing. But even if they keep the sub it is clear they intenend to have many things that VIPs will need to spend or grind for going forward.
A very reasonably held and stated opinon. However, that said, here is what I do not get. When those of use 'warning' people about this move point out things showing that Turbine themselves in DDO is already selling things previously included, selling character power items (tomes, which are 10% to 20% boosts in stats in a game all about stats, in quest instance reserections, etc), and generally cash shopping items and whatnot like any F2P game do you still take the attitude of 'wait and see' and generally giving them the benifit of the doubt that they won't do these things? Heck, did you guys not catch what they did with the SuperRewards Offer Wall? All I am saying is that Turbine, evne pre WB aquisition, has shown they are not going down this road with perfect intentions or with promise to not do the things you seem willing to wait and see on - and now that they are gobbled up by WB it seems even more likely that they will push forward even harder.
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The plus virtue thing for a short time is pretty meh. The +virtue for good removes some grind.
The double speed of deed grinding is pretty great. Let me tell you, for certain deeds, you grinding mobs for hours and hours for one virtue. And if you had more then one character.....
This also meant going into instances people hardly do, just to kill mobs that the instance doesn't have anywhere near enough of in a couple runs.
But does seem like you can buy them with points if subbed, so won't matter either way.
If you think what is show in the article referenced by the OP is all that will be sold in LotRO cash shop you are absolutely insane. They will sell everything in the cash shop, EVERYTHING - just like they do in DDO. And over time they will sell more and more stuff just like they have in DDO. That article is absolutely a shill from Turbine just to try to each the initial shock of a cash shop and the people talking about it. But seriosuly, are you really so naive to believe they are goign F2P, hybrid or otherwise, and just selling the few thigns listed in that article? Please, wake up.
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Everything......EVERYTHING...E...VER.....Y...TH.....ING!!!!!!! The sky will fall. Dogs and Cats fornicating together. Up is down and down is up. The end of the world....the end I say.
I just find it entertaining that the pro F2P people are so rabidly trying to defend that there's aboslutely no way the Turbine is going to go too far with their item shop.
Will they? Of course no one knows for sure. I'm positive that they don't even know for sure just how far they'll end up pushing the item shop. Until it happens, it's all just speculation one way or the other.
But considering past experience and basic human behavior, if you allow an inch, they'll want a mile.
They're in it to make money, so why after changing the game into a model with an item shop, specifically with the intent to make more money, why wouldn't they try to exploit the concept to the fullest that they believe they can get away with?
The burden of proof is on them not taking the cash shop too far, because there are so many reasons why they might take it too far.
Nice to see that guilty to proven innocent is alive and well today. Frankly I do not think they have anything to prove to you or anyone but people that are interested in playing this game in its F2P model. I highly doubt they care about the whiny minority of MMO'ers that oppose shops in their games. More people buy gold, items, and powerleveling than people do not. Why would they care about your again? I can not think of a reason.
Yeah, why would anyone think Turbine would go to far? SuperRewards Offer Wall
Ultimately a fair post and opinon. I would only suggest that we need not speculate and need not wait and see - we can look to DDO to see that they are moving fast and far towards a typical F2P cash shop AND that the idea that a sub in their hybrid model gets you everything it gets you now is factually not true. What you are hearing now is marketing spin - they know F2P has a stigma and they are obviously trying to minimize how much will be on the shop - but DDO shows clearly far, far more will be monitized in the cash shop then the marleting lets on and the idea that the sub makes it all the same as it ever was it ludicrous.
So proving the fallacy of the idea that a subscription under the new model gets you all it got you under the old (P2P) model is 'guilty until proven innocent'? DDO has been out under this model, also from Turbine, for some time - it is their test bed - so we can see what they intend very clearly. And it is a fact that a sub under this system is nto getting you what it got you before as it is clear that just like any F2P game they are selling avoidance of grinds and convenience, which necessarily means they have incentive to design more grinds and inconvenience.
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When it comes to greed, every for profit company is guilty of it until proven otherwise. The pursuit of profit is in fact, the entire purpose for such companies to exist.
To believe otherwise is nieve.
Actualy, I think they have quite alot to proove to me, since I happen to be a current paying customer of thiers (have been since LOTRO started). At least, they have quite alot to proove if they wish to continue to keep my business.
Why would they care?
- My money is as good to them as anyone elses.
- In business, it's a generaly accepted axiom that it costs 5-10 times as much to obtain a new customer as it does to retain an existing one.
- Each and every player they have playing thier game actualy COSTS Turbine a certain amount of money each month to maintain. They already KNOW (given my current status with them) that I am willing to pay them more money then I cost them. In other words they KNOW they are able to profit from me. How many F2P players that holds true for is a complete and utter crapshoot. If Turbine guessing wrong about how much the average F2P will be willing to spend in THIER item shop...They will be operating at a loss.
- I am a LONG TERM customer of thiers, I am a reliable long term source of revenue for them. It remains to be seen how long they will be able to retain the F2P players that they might attract.
- They have don't KNOW how well a F2P/Hybrid model will work in LOTRO. They are BETTING that it will be proffitable based upon thier experience in DDO. However, since this game and it's audience are quite different then DDO....it remains to be seen if that bet will pay off. Do the words "New Coke" have any meaning to you?
As far as "more people buying gold, items and power leveling then do not", I can make up as many unsubstantiated claims as the next guy. I'd hazard to say that NO ONE in the industry is in a position to access the data required to accurately make that assertion accross the market as a whole. Furthermore, I'd guess that many Developers don't even have a good handle on those metrics in thier OWN existing games. Furthermore even if that metric were true in general, it doesn't mean a whole lot as to how well going F2P will work out for Turbine in THIS particular game Just because KFC makes alot of money selling chicken doesn't mean that YOU will make alot of money by opeining up a chicken place. The Devil, very much is in the details.
Finaly, yes....businesses generaly accept that the onus IS on them to prove to thier customers that they can be trusted with those customers business... Do the words "Brand Reputation" have any meaning for you?
Turbine HAD a pretty decent reputation as a developer back a few years ago.... However that reputation HAS taken quite a number of hits in recent years..... Not the least of which is how this last little move went down. I won't even go into the reputation of thier new parent company...Warner Bros.
Frankly, in my book, Turbine is on probation. If I weren't so attached to LOTRO from my current ties to it...this move probably would have been enough to make me bail. As it is...I'm not quite ready to call it quits...but I WILL be watching what they are doing like a hawk..... and frankly I ALREADY don't like what I'm hearing and seeing them do in regards this move.
Except they don't sell everything in the ddo item shop. I can't get +5 mythril full plate armor or shields. I can't buy a +5 vorpal knopesh or +3 or +4 tomes or any of the actual decent loot you would aquire past level 10 in the game from chests.
What the haters keep ignoring is that most people familiar with DDO and LotRO are perfectly fine with this change because they like how it turned out for DDO. AgtSmith has proven nothing but his hate for the model by repeating drivel that has been countered time and time again.
I dare you to tell us all in $ or points how much this content you speak of in DDO that VIPs have to buy would cost a VIP. And lets all of us keep in mind that VIPs get 500 points for free per month and that DDO is a 4 year old game, surely there must be lots of this content that VIPs have to buy or you wouldnt make such a fuss about it.
That's easy I'll tell you:
How much do VIP's HAVE to pay to get access to ALL content in game: $0 besides their monthly sub.
How much do VIP's HAVe to pay to remain competative ingame: $0 besides their monthly sub.
END OF ARGUMENT.