Why shouldnt it work? Seems pretty much how DDO got their 500% revenue increase, just look at the most sales category on their store, its mostly consumeables. Makes sense that the consumeables sell the best, cause you have to buy them again and again.
I do not disagree with this, not entirely, in fact that is largely why I think the model is 'dangerous'. They make their money of these cash shop items, even if just from a small subset of the overall players. However, over time there is great incentive to make them more and more necessary (i.e. to make grinds longer and other such things harder without said cash shop items). So you start day one with a system that is similar (at least in some ways) for subscribers to the old model (excepting the changes that result from a cash shop and F2P being worked in) but over time the pressure takes you further and further from that point and the sub becomes more and more diminished as the cash shop is more and more emphasized. T
To the point of expansions being extras subscribers under the current model have to pay extra for that is true but you can bet your last buck that buying an expansion in a box or digital download will be a far greater value than buying all its little pieces carved up and sold individually through the cash shop. Heck, most MMOs outside a rare few include expansions with the initial box price once it has been out a couple months or more, currently LotRO is $29.99 for the original game, both expansions (MoM and SoM), and 30 days play - that is value you will never see come F2P.
So however you slice it, I just think this is a move about one thing more for the same or lots more from a few new eyes drawn in by the F2P. And over time, subscribers can rest assured they will never get the value they got under the current model and gameplay will, at least in part (and probably large part) be steered not by what is best for players and the game but what is best for generating cash shop sales.
Personally i just dont see the incentive to buy loot or XP potions. If you level so slow its annoying you a 20 or even 30% boost wont change that, and players just wildly diverge on what they think is acceptable leveling speed. Loot isnt an option for me either, 95% of what you is not useful to your class anyway, atleast thats my take. You sell it and use the money to buy stuff you actually want.
Let me help you out with a couple arguments what will really annoy F2P players:
1. You cant make auctions, only bid and buy. I dont know about you, but i make alteast 70% of my cash selling crafting resources or items on the AH.
2. You cant get a horse or big house because its above your max gold limit.
3. Without selling stuff on the AH and no questrewards you wont have the cash to properly keep your craft onlevel for anything but farmer and cook, so you cant even craft items for yourself.
4. So you dont craft, what do you do if all your bags are full and your at the goldcap? Have fun destroying valuable stuff.
Those are the big problems i see, and the reason i will go premium and spend some cash. I dont much care about the quests, maybe ill buy one or two strategically placed regions like lonelands and angmar, once i get sick of those ill probably buy others for my twinks, but that might be quite some time down the road.
The way I understand it you can continue to earn gold and it will be stored for you, but you will only have access to a maximum of 2 GP at any time for purchases, so no deluxe houses or horses unless you are premium player. it's just further incentive for someone who's on the fence to go premium.
Oh thank god. Deed grinding is by far the most boring thing one could do in LotRO. Anything that speeds up that insanely tedious process gets my vote.
And here is the gaurantee that grinds will get worse with F2P cash shop being introduced, because there will be enough people who will pay to avoid them. This will ruin MMOs as the devs will make money from grinds getting worse and worse and the various cash shop items being needed more and more. Sure, it starts out inoculously an dinnocent but it is all about the frog in the water and turning up the heat slowly to a boil.
I know ive pointed this out to you before, yet you seem to just refuse to see anything different than what you already believe, no matte rhow wrong it is.
Ho wthe hell do you think P2P games keep you subbing and paying them? By adding in grinds and timesinks in order to advance. Do you really think they need to make it take several weeks/months to reach level cap or get good gear? NO, but they make it that way why.... so you have to pay the next months sub to keep playing and advancing. P2P devs are JUST as guilty of increasing grinds to milk you for more money as F2P games. Get over it already.
There is a bit of a difference though P2P games put in grinds so that players have something to do if they burn through content quicker then the developer can add it. The P2P models revenue is dependant upon you finding the game ENJOYABLE/INTERESTING enough to renew the subscription for next month. There is no real incentive for the Dev to put in unpleasant grinds if they can avoid them...since thier revenue model is entirely dependant upon the player finding the game FUN/Interesting. Grinds exist simply because Dev's can't produce content quickly enough for the players to consume and they need to do something to satisfy the achiever playstyle players. In other words, the Dev's are TRYING to make the grinds fun/interesting for the player (sense of reward upon accomplishment)...that's thier incentive...they just usualy do a lousy job at realizing that incentive.
F2P games are entirely different. The F2P game PURPOSEFULLY introduces elements into thier game that a player finds annoying, unfun, boring or limiting. The F2P games revenue is DEPENDANT on selling the players remedies to remove the annoying/boring/unfun aspects of the game for cash. The F2P Dev has a direct monetary incentive to introduce negative elements of thier game play so that they can earn revenue by selling remedies to them.
Analogy:
P2P - I am selling you a rafting trip. My revenue comes from you enjoying the rafting trip and booking another rafting trip with me next month because you had fun and enjoyed your experience. Part of the fun of rafting does involve an element of danger. You MAY fall out of the Raft and get injured.... I don't WANT that to happen to you as that will negatively impact your experience (and you won't buy from me again). However, the risk goes with the territory. Included in the price of the Rafting trip, I'm bringing medical supplies and pain killers to remedy your injury in case that happens. I don't WANT you to need them...but you may.
F2P - I provide FREE rafting trips. You will want to come on my rafting trip because it is fun and you enjoyed your expereince. I make no profit from you coming on my Rafting trip. However, I DO sell equipment, including medical supplies and pain killers to my rafters. This is how I make my profit. There are rapids in the river and you MAY fall out of the raft. That risk is inherent with Rafting. IF you fall out of the raft and are injured, I have medical equipment and pain killers that I can SELL to you in order to remedy your situation. I profit from selling you this equipment. If my rafters don't buy this equipment, I don't earn a revenue.
1) Which rafting guide has an incentive for their customers to get injured?
2) Which rafting guide would you PREFER to book a trip with?
That's my beef right there with F2P and the deception it stands for.
It's not about making the game worthy of the customer to stay on and keep paying. F2P is about having you pay for numerous services / items / etc. because game design was made in such a way that things are inconvenient.
The grind is a notorious example. In a P2P game, excessive grinds will drive people and their money away. In a F2P game, the grind can be made horrendous, by design. You CAN play through the game with it, but the time sink becomes immense, usually once you're "mid level" and no longer in the early stages of character levelling (by mid level, they're banking on you to stay on because you've devoted alot of time on that toon already. They already got you by the balls). You're slaving away with the long grind but what's this? Some big advertisement on the game launcher talking about Item Mall benefits that give temporary but significant XP bonuses? Or, if that's not convincing, you can pay for another little map zone that has NPCs that give larger XP and other rewards. Better yet, why don't you get the XP buff potion AND that little map zone?
Congrats buddy, they just got you. Hook, Line, and Sinker.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
It's not about making the game worthy of the customer to stay on and keep paying. F2P is about having you pay for numerous services / items / etc. because game design was made in such a way that things are inconvenient.
The grind is a notorious example. In a P2P game, excessive grinds will drive people and their money away. In a F2P game, the grind can be made horrendous, by design. You CAN play through the game with it, but the time sink becomes immense, usually once you're "mid level" and no longer in the early stages of character levelling (by mid level, they're banking on you to stay on because you've devoted alot of time on that toon already. They already got you by the balls). You're slaving away with the long grind but what's this? Some big advertisement on the game launcher talking about Item Mall benefits that give temporary but significant XP bonuses? Or, if that's not convincing, you can pay for another little map zone that has NPCs that give larger XP and other rewards. Better yet, why don't you get the XP buff potion AND that little map zone?
Congrats buddy, they just got you. Hook, Line, and Sinker.
That's my beef right there with F2P and the deception it stands for.
It's not about making the game worthy of the customer to stay on and keep paying. F2P is about having you pay for numerous services / items / etc. because game design was made in such a way that things are inconvenient.
The grind is a notorious example. In a P2P game, excessive grinds will drive people and their money away. In a F2P game, the grind can be made horrendous, by design. You CAN play through the game with it, but the time sink becomes immense, usually once you're "mid level" and no longer in the early stages of character levelling (by mid level, they're banking on you to stay on because you've devoted alot of time on that toon already. They already got you by the balls). You're slaving away with the long grind but what's this? Some big advertisement on the game launcher talking about Item Mall benefits that give temporary but significant XP bonuses? Or, if that's not convincing, you can pay for another little map zone that has NPCs that give larger XP and other rewards. Better yet, why don't you get the XP buff potion AND that little map zone?
Congrats buddy, they just got you. Hook, Line, and Sinker.
And in an asian grind MMO that might be true. However, assuming this is ignoring what was done in DDO. It's not like right after they made the switch to the hybrid model they made the game more grindy. In fact what you have said really only applies in general to a fully F2P MMO where the only revenue is made from item malls. In a hybrid game like DDO and LotRO there is not the need to do this since a lot of revenue still comes from subscriptions.
And in an asian grind MMO that might be true. However, assuming this is ignoring what was done in DDO. It's not like right after they made the switch to the hybrid model they made the game more grindy. In fact what you have said really only applies in general to a fully F2P MMO where the only revenue is made from item malls. In a hybrid game like DDO and LotRO there is not the need to do this since a lot of revenue still comes from subscriptions.
I disagree. Even if we accept that much of the revenue, over time, still comes from subs (which I am not entirely sure is true, over time) the influx of free players dictates that they will need to get money from these players in some way as they cost the game money in terms of supporting them. So either grinds will increase to get them to buy ways around the grinds or they will have to cash shop more and more goodies to try to monetize these people. Either way, it serves as two poor motivators for negative trends. And if you look at DDO you can see this with the new class being introduced, even to subscribers, and requiring purchase on the cash shop or a lengthy grind to unlock (whereas the previous class added under P2P was simply included for all with no unlock or extra purchase). Over the long haul I think the pressure will definitely move things more to the F2P way of things rather than the hybrid/subscription though as box sales don't exists anymore as source of revenue nor do expansion sales. Hybrid may mean it takes longer to get some of the worst things about F2P but they will come nevertheless.
People make the mistake in seeing this F2P hybrid thing as a way for them to draw in more subscribers when it clearly is not intended to do that. Instead, the hybrid F2P model is about conditioning subscribers to the F2P model in a way that is not threatening to start and that will soften the blow over time. How can we know this, well, easy - if the goal was to get more subscribers then the cash shop stuff would all be unnecessary and things would be structured around you paying X dollars per month to get access to this or that area while having the cheaper option of less than X to get all access per month. By example, you buy monthly access to two or three areas for $5 or $10 a month or buy all access for $15 where buying all the areas individually costs more than the $15. What they are doing, however, is selling the areas without time restrictions so there is no direct comparison to the subscription, and over time as the revenue from people's one time purchase of the various areas is not coming in anymore the game will need to shift to more F2P type stuff to drive more revenue (i.e. grind avoidance or direct purchasing of power in cash shop).
And in an asian grind MMO that might be true. However, assuming this is ignoring what was done in DDO. It's not like right after they made the switch to the hybrid model they made the game more grindy. In fact what you have said really only applies in general to a fully F2P MMO where the only revenue is made from item malls. In a hybrid game like DDO and LotRO there is not the need to do this since a lot of revenue still comes from subscriptions.
I disagree. Even if we accept that much of the revenue, over time, still comes from subs (which I am not entirely sure is true, over time) the influx of free players dictates that they will need to get money from these players in some way as they cost the game money in terms of supporting them. So either grinds will increase to get them to buy ways around the grinds or they will have to cash shop more and more goodies to try to monetize these people. Either way, it serves as two poor motivators for negative trends. And if you look at DDO you can see this with the new class being introduced, even to subscribers, and requiring purchase on the cash shop or a lengthy grind to unlock (whereas the previous class added under P2P was simply included for all with no unlock or extra purchase). Over the long haul I think the pressure will definitely move things more to the F2P way of things rather than the hybrid/subscription though as box sales don't exists anymore as source of revenue nor do expansion sales. Hybrid may mean it takes longer to get some of the worst things about F2P but they will come nevertheless.
In DDO the new class costs Turbine Points which subscribers now get for free each month. Saying that you either need to pay for it or grind for it is a bit misleading.
That being said, I disagree thaat the new players take a lot of resources since they do not get the same customer service as subscribers which only leaves the servers. Now if we look at DDO so far (and I will admit it is still only a year out so it could change) they have seen a revenue increase to 5x their original revenue. This has been done without adding a large grind like Warmachine was talking about. With that there is no need to increase the grind of the game.
Obviously they need to make the item shop attractive and that might mean putting things on there that normal subscribers don't get as well. However, Turbine so far has treated its subscribers properally and has made sure they have a way of getting these things without paying extra money on top of what they already do.
Now I can see an increase in things hitting the F2P store as you said, because there are no longer expansions. However, if they are actually putting in content with those updates as DDO has been (again so far) then there is little difference between that and buying an expansion. The main difference is that subscribers still have a way of paying for it without spending extra money.
In DDO the new class costs Turbine Points which subscribers now get for free each month. Saying that you either need to pay for it or grind for it is a bit misleading.
The class, surely unintentionally, costs more Turbine points to unlock than are included with a months subscription. So either you have to subscribe for two months, grind it unlocked in game, or buy it - either way it is a substantial change from the previous class added which was avaialble on to all subscribers on day on of that patch. Such is the difference between subscribing in a F2P hybrid and a traditional P2P game and it is on point to the grind issue and adding hurdles you have to buy your way around.
Originally posted by Trobon
That being said, I disagree thaat the new players take a lot of resources since they do not get the same customer service as subscribers which only leaves the servers. Now if we look at DDO so far (and I will admit it is still only a year out so it could change) they have seen a revenue increase to 5x their original revenue. This has been done without adding a large grind like Warmachine was talking about. With that there is no need to increase the grind of the game.
Well, you would be wrong on this. Consider this, if opening this up to anyone to play for free (albeit play a gimped version of the game for free) then why doesn't everyone do this? It is expensive as it means you are supporting lots of downloads of the game, logins to the game, and players playing on your servers many of which (some say the ratio is as much as 80% not paying to 20% paying) are not paying a dime. Yes, bandwidth and server costs are not what they used to be but opening things up like this is extremenly expensive especially since you are getting not a dime from these 'new' people unless you entice them to spend money in the cash shop.
Originally posted by Trobon
Obviously they need to make the item shop attractive and that might mean putting things on there that normal subscribers don't get as well. However, Turbine so far has treated its subscribers properally and has made sure they have a way of getting these things without paying extra money on top of what they already do.
Forget the have to or don't have to part though I would aruge you are far underestimating the have to part of things. What about the strong invcentive to DEVs to design things to not just get some of the free folks to need to spend but to do the same to subscribers. Are we so naive as to think these devs are not going to see the potential revenue of getting just some of the subscribers to start needing, or even wanting, cash shop goodies? Come on. And as for Turbine treating its subscribers right I would point you to this (Turbine/SuperRewards offer wall), now tell me how well they treat their subscribers and tell me how it is liekly to get better now that Turbine is just a cog in the WB machine?
Originally posted by Trobon
Now I can see an increase in things hitting the F2P store as you said, because there are no longer expansions. However, if they are actually putting in content with those updates as DDO has been (again so far) then there is little difference between that and buying an expansion. The main difference is that subscribers still have a way of paying for it without spending extra money.
Again, buying what was expansions in small pieces here and there is not going to be cheaper than buying it in one piece - this is undeniable fact of F2P numero uno. By example, DDO offered up over 9 major content updates as P2P (called MODs) and not a single one of them cost subscribers a single penny. Under F2p youcan rest assured that your $15 a month will not get you the same full access at no additonal charge and probably will cost you extra money or maybe at the least cost you some hefty in game grinds.
The class, surely unintentionally, costs more Turbine points to unlock than are included with a months subscription. So either you have to subscribe for two months, grind it unlocked in game, or buy it - either way it is a substantial change from the previous class added which was avaialble on to all subscribers on day on of that patch. Such is the difference between subscribing in a F2P hybrid and a traditional P2P game and it is on point to the grind issue and adding hurdles you have to buy your way around.
Well, you would be wrong on this. Consider this, if opening this up to anyone to play for free (albeit play a gimped version of the game for free) then why doesn't everyone do this? It is expensive as it means you are supporting lots of downloads of the game, logins to the game, and players playing on your servers many of which (some say the ratio is as much as 80% not paying to 20% paying) are not paying a dime. Yes, bandwidth and server costs are not what they used to be but opening things up like this is extremenly expensive especially since you are getting not a dime from these 'new' people unless you entice them to spend money in the cash shop.
Forget the have to or don't have to part though I would aruge you are far underestimating the have to part of things. What about the strong invcentive to DEVs to design things to not just get some of the free folks to need to spend but to do the same to subscribers. Are we so naive as to think these devs are not going to see the potential revenue of getting just some of the subscribers to start needing, or even wanting, cash shop goodies? Come on. And as for Turbine treating its subscribers right I would point you to this (Turbine/SuperRewards offer wall), now tell me how well they treat their subscribers and tell me how it is liekly to get better now that Turbine is just a cog in the WB machine?
First of all, let me say I never meant to imply that Turbine is incapable of doing wrong and that they always treat us great. I meant only in terms of giving us a way of getting these things without paying extra money. That being said, I don't think it matters that the class cost two months of subscription. It's not as if they are releasing these every month. Noe maybe this will change and then I will be singing a different tune, but so far they have made it perfectly easy to never pay a dime in the store for subscribers.
As for "why doesn't everyone do this?" I think that there has been a general view that $15 a month was what was making the most. That's because when it was created it was the best for that market. Now that has changed a bit. Now will it work? That is still to be seen, but if LotRO gains a lot of revenue from this switch then it is very possible that more games will be switching to this model. I don't think that there is this mystical knowledge on what works best at any time.
And in an asian grind MMO that might be true. However, assuming this is ignoring what was done in DDO. It's not like right after they made the switch to the hybrid model they made the game more grindy. In fact what you have said really only applies in general to a fully F2P MMO where the only revenue is made from item malls. In a hybrid game like DDO and LotRO there is not the need to do this since a lot of revenue still comes from subscriptions.
I disagree. Even if we accept that much of the revenue, over time, still comes from subs (which I am not entirely sure is true, over time) the influx of free players dictates that they will need to get money from these players in some way as they cost the game money in terms of supporting them. So either grinds will increase to get them to buy ways around the grinds or they will have to cash shop more and more goodies to try to monetize these people. Either way, it serves as two poor motivators for negative trends. And if you look at DDO you can see this with the new class being introduced, even to subscribers, and requiring purchase on the cash shop or a lengthy grind to unlock (whereas the previous class added under P2P was simply included for all with no unlock or extra purchase). Over the long haul I think the pressure will definitely move things more to the F2P way of things rather than the hybrid/subscription though as box sales don't exists anymore as source of revenue nor do expansion sales. Hybrid may mean it takes longer to get some of the worst things about F2P but they will come nevertheless.
As per Turbine itself Premium players pay approximately 70% of the cost of a monthly sub in store purchases per month. As long as Turbine can continue to release enough content to keep Premium players spending around that much then there is no need to gouge VIP's. VIP's are happy cause they're getting new content with their sub and Turbine has gets more money from the Premiums when they buy the content unlocks. VIP subs + Freemium cash is better than just VIP subs or just F2P cash shop income alone. Also you REAALLY need to stop beating the dead horse that is your weak argument about the favoured soul being purposefully added as a high favour unlock, the argument is beyond weak. Yet another example of how the argument fails: DDO Monk is to WoW warrior as DDO Favoured Soul is to WoW Death Knight. The onlly difference is that it doesn't cost $40 to unlock the favoured soul.
People make the mistake in seeing this F2P hybrid thing as a way for them to draw in more subscribers when it clearly is not intended to do that. Instead, the hybrid F2P model is about conditioning subscribers to the F2P model in a way that is not threatening to start and that will soften the blow over time. How can we know this, well, easy - if the goal was to get more subscribers then the cash shop stuff would all be unnecessary and things would be structured around you paying X dollars per month to get access to this or that area while having the cheaper option of less than X to get all access per month. By example, you buy monthly access to two or three areas for $5 or $10 a month or buy all access for $15 where buying all the areas individually costs more than the $15. What they are doing, however, is selling the areas without time restrictions so there is no direct comparison to the subscription, and over time as the revenue from people's one time purchase of the various areas is not coming in anymore the game will need to shift to more F2P type stuff to drive more revenue (i.e. grind avoidance or direct purchasing of power in cash shop).
First of all, let me say I never meant to imply that Turbine is incapable of doing wrong and that they always treat us great. I meant only in terms of giving us a way of getting these things without paying extra money. That being said, I don't think it matters that the class cost two months of subscription. It's not as if they are releasing these every month. Noe maybe this will change and then I will be singing a different tune, but so far they have made it perfectly easy to never pay a dime in the store for subscribers.
Again, it isn't a question of whether you think the change to how a class was 'included' before but not 'costs' time or money is agregious or not it is the fact that it does represent a substantial change in line with the 'what was included will cost' warnings. And as I said, this is the start - as people get over thier F2P qualms you can rest assured it will cost more.
Originally posted by Trobon
As for "why doesn't everyone do this?" I think that there has been a general view that $15 a month was what was making the most. That's because when it was created it was the best for that market. Now that has changed a bit. Now will it work? That is still to be seen, but if LotRO gains a lot of revenue from this switch then it is very possible that more games will be switching to this model. I don't think that there is this mystical knowledge on what works best at any time.
Again, you are taking a myopic view of things with little knowledge of the real mechanics of the finance and business elements involved. For example, DDO and LotRO both made substantial revenue from box sales so that revenue is funding the shift to F2P, even today. But over time the costs of keeping F2P going will have to be covered more and more just from the players playing which means more and more typical F2P type pricing and grind type stuff. Additionally, if the game(s) do legitimately allow you to play for free then subs will decline as people who bought boxes and therefore have all the area unlocks will not find reason to pay monthly, at which point the F2P model has to insert grinds and other things people will need to pay to avoid - such is the reality of F2P.
The simple fact of the matter is that the game cannot really be F2P or people will play for free and Turbine will make no more moeny to offset the lost revenue of box sales and subs or recoup the extra costs of downloads and new players. So the whole debate is really silly - it is an undebniable debate that F2P is about making more of fewer people and while the hybrid models makes this simple model more complex the fact remains that they will be milking those who do pay, subscribers and otherwise, for more to cover the costs of those who do not pay.
And BTW - the argument of how the new class was handled in DDO is not tired, it is spot on and to the point that what you got with a P2P subscription is quite different than what you get in F2P subscription.
First of all, let me say I never meant to imply that Turbine is incapable of doing wrong and that they always treat us great. I meant only in terms of giving us a way of getting these things without paying extra money. That being said, I don't think it matters that the class cost two months of subscription. It's not as if they are releasing these every month. Noe maybe this will change and then I will be singing a different tune, but so far they have made it perfectly easy to never pay a dime in the store for subscribers.
Again, it isn't a question of whether you think the change to how a class was 'included' before but not 'costs' time or money is agregious or not it is the fact that it does represent a substantial change in line with the 'what was included will cost' warnings. And as I said, this is the start - as people get over thier F2P qualms you can rest assured it will cost more.
Originally posted by Trobon
As for "why doesn't everyone do this?" I think that there has been a general view that $15 a month was what was making the most. That's because when it was created it was the best for that market. Now that has changed a bit. Now will it work? That is still to be seen, but if LotRO gains a lot of revenue from this switch then it is very possible that more games will be switching to this model. I don't think that there is this mystical knowledge on what works best at any time.
Again, you are taking a myopic view of things with little knowledge of the real mechanics of the finance and business elements involved. For example, DDO and LotRO both made substantial revenue from box sales so that revenue is funding the shift to F2P, even today. But over time the costs of keeping F2P going will have to be covered more and more just from the players playing which means more and more typical F2P type pricing and grind type stuff. Additionally, if the game(s) do legitimately allow you to play for free then subs will decline as people who bought boxes and therefore have all the area unlocks will not find reason to pay monthly, at which point the F2P model has to insert grinds and other things people will need to pay to avoid - such is the reality of F2P.
The simple fact of the matter is that the game cannot really be F2P or people will play for free and Turbine will make no more moeny to offset the lost revenue of box sales and subs or recoup the extra costs of downloads and new players. So the whole debate is really silly - it is an undebniable debate that F2P is about making more of fewer people and while the hybrid models makes this simple model more complex the fact remains that they will be milking those who do pay, subscribers and otherwise, for more to cover the costs of those who do not pay.
And BTW - the argument of how the new class was handled in DDO is not tired, it is spot on and to the point that what you got with a P2P subscription is quite different than what you get in F2P subscription.
Well I will say that you have made some interesting points. However, right now there is little to suibstantiate it. Yes there have been a couple instances of subscribers in DDO needing to use their points to get things. However, it has not been big and it has not led to grinding yet.
That being said, I will be the first one to say I was wrong if this changes a lot. Perhaps you are right and there will be bigger changes. And if that happens I am not so blind that I won't leave.
All we can do is wait and see really. I will be on one side of the issue and you will be on the other.
Oh thank god. Deed grinding is by far the most boring thing one could do in LotRO. Anything that speeds up that insanely tedious process gets my vote.
And here is the gaurantee that grinds will get worse with F2P cash shop being introduced, because there will be enough people who will pay to avoid them. This will ruin MMOs as the devs will make money from grinds getting worse and worse and the various cash shop items being needed more and more. Sure, it starts out inoculously an dinnocent but it is all about the frog in the water and turning up the heat slowly to a boil.
- Has anyone pointed out that the grinds Vagrant_Zero was talking about (names/titles, traits, deeds etc...)aren't mandatory? Pretty much they're handled in one of three ways; ignore them, let them come as you play or wait until you get to be a high level with nothing else to do and go back and grind deeds.
They're not needed to level or to complete quests or advance the storyline. They're just little extra's for you to customize your toon. When I was playing I never met anyone that was grinding traits, that wasn't a high level.
You guys really need to quit refering to and hoping for the Nice guy Mr Turbine, when speaking of LoTRo and DDO among others they no longer own them and wont be long before there devs filter there way out from Warner Bros.. Happens everytime...
Where Turbine had a labor of love involved in these games .. Warner bros sees 1 thing $$$$....And whhen they are thru wringing the wet towel in 18 months the will shut down or sell these IPs again ..
And what many folks are missing here is this is Time Warner.. Warner Bros is a subsidary of Time Warner ..
Time Warner has been $%itting on consumers ,players and fans for 5 decades .. From every form of entertainment there is , Baseball, Baskeball, TV , video games , Amusement PArks,Internet , Movies, Cable etc the list is long and ugly of the companies , teams,invenitors , creators and artists that they buy up ,Eat , Digest , removing all that was good and SH*t you out whats left then sell you off .....
But LoTRO will be different , they wouldnt dare defile Mr Tolkien .. LMFAO ... get a grip
Yeah your all so clever. Want some reality with your whine? The reality is that everything is yearly rising in prices, from expenditures to taxes to wages(usually in that order). Another reality is that it takes longer to make a new model/landscape for a game like AoC or LoTRO compared to lets say EQ, Ultima or even WoW. More polygons/physics/bandwith more work/cost, should be obvious. These days you simply need more developers to deliver the same amount of content.
Despite all this everyone still expects 15$ to cover it, the same 15$ we paid 10 years ago. Its just not possible. Everybody gets that a Blueray Disc costs more than a DVD, it has higher quality after all. But with games, it has to be 40-50$ for the box and in case of subscriptions 10-15$, regardless of quality or operating expenses. Anyone here surprised that quality has to give way in light of this? Every year these companies see their profits sinking, while being told that gamers are unwilling to pay more. Obviously they begin to fire developers, hire cheaper younger ones, shrink the teams working on the games are simply expecting the same work in less time.
And that brings me back to Turbines F2P model. Ofc they have plain buisness reasons to go to a model with higher revenue, but it was also plain for everyone who actually played the game to see that Turbine was unable to deliver a quality product/service with the funding they had available. You see that in the way major bugs linger for months and how paltry content updates have become.
If it was just Turbine i would blame them at once for just being greedy and just not reinvesting the money they made properly back into the game. But when the last successful MMO launch is now 6 years in the past, maybe we should look for the problem elsewhere.
Oh thank god. Deed grinding is by far the most boring thing one could do in LotRO. Anything that speeds up that insanely tedious process gets my vote.
And here is the gaurantee that grinds will get worse with F2P cash shop being introduced, because there will be enough people who will pay to avoid them. This will ruin MMOs as the devs will make money from grinds getting worse and worse and the various cash shop items being needed more and more. Sure, it starts out inoculously an dinnocent but it is all about the frog in the water and turning up the heat slowly to a boil.
I don't think a lot of people are going to see it this way, but I think you are spot on correct.
So deeds are a boring grind and now developers are asking for money to avoid the boring aspect of the game. To me that is rewarding developers for making something boring or not redesigning a system that isn't very entertaining. This isn't a F2P vs Subscription argument at all, but paying to avoid boring gameplay is such an alien concept to what a game should be about that I just don't understand how anyone could applaud that as being good.
Not everything game altering has to be about stats and hit points. When it becomes more financially viable for a game developer to ignore poor features or intentially create lacking gameplay then something has gone terribly wrong. Designing a game with the mentality of "this will be fun as long as players pay extra for it" just doesn't feel like a sustainable model to me.
Oh thank god. Deed grinding is by far the most boring thing one could do in LotRO. Anything that speeds up that insanely tedious process gets my vote.
And here is the gaurantee that grinds will get worse with F2P cash shop being introduced, because there will be enough people who will pay to avoid them. This will ruin MMOs as the devs will make money from grinds getting worse and worse and the various cash shop items being needed more and more. Sure, it starts out inoculously an dinnocent but it is all about the frog in the water and turning up the heat slowly to a boil.
I don't think a lot of people are going to see it this way, but I think you are spot on correct.
So deeds are a boring grind and now developers are asking for money to avoid the boring aspect of the game. To me that is rewarding developers for making something boring or not redesigning a system that isn't very entertaining. This isn't a F2P vs Subscription argument at all, but paying to avoid boring gameplay is such an alien concept to what a game should be about that I just don't understand how anyone could applaud that as being good.
Not everything game altering has to be about stats and hit points. When it becomes more financially viable for a game developer to ignore poor features or intentially create lacking gameplay then something has gone terribly wrong. Designing a game with the mentality of "this will be fun as long as players pay extra for it" just doesn't feel like a sustainable model to me.
I agree. Most are not seeing it this way. Some are seeing Turbine saying nothing is going to change and some that would never pay a sub to play the game are seeing, well, a free game. Deeds are girndy but I never had a problem completing them in a reasonable time. But once Turbine sees how many will pay to avoid the grind, I believe you will see more and more gind and more and more potions/tomes to alleviate it.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Oh thank god. Deed grinding is by far the most boring thing one could do in LotRO. Anything that speeds up that insanely tedious process gets my vote.
And here is the gaurantee that grinds will get worse with F2P cash shop being introduced, because there will be enough people who will pay to avoid them. This will ruin MMOs as the devs will make money from grinds getting worse and worse and the various cash shop items being needed more and more. Sure, it starts out inoculously an dinnocent but it is all about the frog in the water and turning up the heat slowly to a boil.
I don't think a lot of people are going to see it this way, but I think you are spot on correct.
So deeds are a boring grind and now developers are asking for money to avoid the boring aspect of the game. To me that is rewarding developers for making something boring or not redesigning a system that isn't very entertaining. This isn't a F2P vs Subscription argument at all, but paying to avoid boring gameplay is such an alien concept to what a game should be about that I just don't understand how anyone could applaud that as being good.
Not everything game altering has to be about stats and hit points. When it becomes more financially viable for a game developer to ignore poor features or intentially create lacking gameplay then something has gone terribly wrong. Designing a game with the mentality of "this will be fun as long as players pay extra for it" just doesn't feel like a sustainable model to me.
I agree. Most are not seeing it this way. Some are seeing Turbine saying nothing is going to change and some that would never pay a sub to play the game are seeing, well, a free game. Deeds are girndy but I never had a problem completing them in a reasonable time. But once Turbine sees how many will pay to avoid the grind, I believe you will see more and more gind and more and more potions/tomes to alleviate it.
I think both of you sum it up well. The problem is not whether Turbine has pure or tainted motives with this move it is that the monetization of gameplay, as exists in F2P, fundamentally changes the game in a way that inevitably leads to its corruption in to the whole nickel and dime thing and buying avoidance of grinds or buying not being gimped. Even if they are starting all this with pure motives the dollars to be made from increasing a grind here and there, reducing loot rate of that cash shop item, etc, etc, etc, is too much to be avoided. This is why I argue that a sub to a F2P game, even a hybrid which is less obvious on its face, is not the same as a sub to a P2P game where the goal of the developers is to simply improve the overall game enough to make subscribers want to buy another month.
Oh thank god. Deed grinding is by far the most boring thing one could do in LotRO. Anything that speeds up that insanely tedious process gets my vote.
And here is the gaurantee that grinds will get worse with F2P cash shop being introduced, because there will be enough people who will pay to avoid them. This will ruin MMOs as the devs will make money from grinds getting worse and worse and the various cash shop items being needed more and more. Sure, it starts out inoculously an dinnocent but it is all about the frog in the water and turning up the heat slowly to a boil.
I don't think a lot of people are going to see it this way, but I think you are spot on correct.
So deeds are a boring grind and now developers are asking for money to avoid the boring aspect of the game. To me that is rewarding developers for making something boring or not redesigning a system that isn't very entertaining. This isn't a F2P vs Subscription argument at all, but paying to avoid boring gameplay is such an alien concept to what a game should be about that I just don't understand how anyone could applaud that as being good.
Not everything game altering has to be about stats and hit points. When it becomes more financially viable for a game developer to ignore poor features or intentially create lacking gameplay then something has gone terribly wrong. Designing a game with the mentality of "this will be fun as long as players pay extra for it" just doesn't feel like a sustainable model to me.
I agree. Most are not seeing it this way. Some are seeing Turbine saying nothing is going to change and some that would never pay a sub to play the game are seeing, well, a free game. Deeds are girndy but I never had a problem completing them in a reasonable time. But once Turbine sees how many will pay to avoid the grind, I believe you will see more and more gind and more and more potions/tomes to alleviate it.
I think both of you sum it up well. The problem is not whether Turbine has pure or tainted motives with this move it is that the monetization of gameplay, as exists in F2P, fundamentally changes the game in a way that inevitably leads to its corruption in to the whole nickel and dime thing and buying avoidance of grinds or buying not being gimped. Even if they are starting all this with pure motives the dollars to be made from increasing a grind here and there, reducing loot rate of that cash shop item, etc, etc, etc, is too much to be avoided. This is why I argue that a sub to a F2P game, even a hybrid which is less obvious on its face, is not the same as a sub to a P2P game where the goal of the developers is to simply improve the overall game enough to make subscribers want to buy another month.
Ugh... i know im pretty much wasting my time since youve repeatedly ignored the point in various threads, but i suppose there's hope that one day you'll be able to grasp this...
If people did not enjoy playing an F2P and the devs did not work on making the overall game enjoyable, would anyone bother paying for anything? Of course not, yet obviously people do or else they wouldnt be so common. By your logic devs think themselves "Well we could make this more enjoyable to our players, but oh no that would make people actually want to play our game and spend some money, we better not do that?" You can't really be that dense.
Both P2P and F2P have different methods of getting money out of you, one requires you to keep paying to play IF you enjoy the game, the other allows you play the game all you want and pay for whatever you choose to pay for IF you enjoy the game. Both require developers to make the game enjoyable to those playing, or else nobody pays for anything. What is so hard to understand about that?
I think both of you sum it up well. The problem is not whether Turbine has pure or tainted motives with this move it is that the monetization of gameplay, as exists in F2P, fundamentally changes the game in a way that inevitably leads to its corruption in to the whole nickel and dime thing and buying avoidance of grinds or buying not being gimped. Even if they are starting all this with pure motives the dollars to be made from increasing a grind here and there, reducing loot rate of that cash shop item, etc, etc, etc, is too much to be avoided. This is why I argue that a sub to a F2P game, even a hybrid which is less obvious on its face, is not the same as a sub to a P2P game where the goal of the developers is to simply improve the overall game enough to make subscribers want to buy another month.
Ugh... i know im pretty much wasting my time since youve repeatedly ignored the point in various threads, but i suppose there's hope that one day you'll be able to grasp this...
If people did not enjoy playing an F2P and the devs did not work on making the overall game enjoyable, would anyone bother paying for anything? Of course not, yet obviously people do or else they wouldnt be so common. By your logic devs think themselves "Well we could make this more enjoyable to our players, but oh no that would make people actually want to play our game and spend some money, we better not do that?" You can't really be that dense.
Both P2P and F2P have different methods of getting money out of you, one requires you to keep paying to play IF you enjoy the game, the other allows you play the game all you want and pay for whatever you choose to pay for IF you enjoy the game. Both require developers to make the game enjoyable to those playing, or else nobody pays for anything. What is so hard to understand about that?
In Agent Smith's defense, his argument isn't flawed it's just not exactly correct in real world application.
Sort of like saying socialism is bad. if you look at it, it's really not bad at all. In fact it's great. Everyone gets food, shelter, education, etc. That's not bad right? But in real world application it can fall short because of how people tend to abuse these systems. Capitalism of course has its own abuses but I digress...
He asserts that pay to play works because the incentive is making the game as great as possible to retain subs. The reality seems that it "works" but not extremely well.
Just watch these forums and we find people ending subs right and left, game hopping, etc. And then there are people waiting for expansions or content updates but they are months coming out.
So sure, pay to play does give incentive for devs to make great content but it just doesn't work very well in keeping subs or at least doesn't keep many people in the game once they get to the end. People are then stuck making alts, doing pvp if that is there bag and running raids over and over again and of course waiting months and months for something new to come out.
Free to play works extremely well because the incentive is to ALWAYS have something new coming out.
But of course the problem is that the game can devolve into nickel and diming, coming out with small bits of content that may not be wholey worth it.
Look at Dragon Age's downloadable content. I like most of them very much. But though I enjoyed them they didn't really seem to be as full as I would have liked. Even the larger expansion could have used some more love. There was one great story line which reallly could have gone somewhere and it was ended so fast that I had to look at my screen and say "that was it?"
So it's a fine line for these games.
Either way, if players are not happy they leave. They do it all the time. Pay to play doesn't guarantee anything and more often than not people leave to find something new. I know I've cancelled my LOTRO sub several times because I had done everything I had wanted to do. I even gave up founder pricing because though it was ten dollars per month I wasn't logging in.
So maybe this free to play/hybrid model will bring in more content at a faster rate.
Though I feel that there will be a strong sense of "buy now and get a new hat with every purchase!"
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Free to play works extremely well because the incentive is to ALWAYS have something new coming out.
But of course the problem is that the game can devolve into nickel and diming, coming out with small bits of content that may not be wholey worth it.
The incentive for free to play games is to get players into the cash shop by any means. That can be accomplished by removing content from normal access or development cycles. It can be done by tweaking xp curves or drop rates of items. Etc etc.
Having something ALWAYS coming out is the most expensive option a game developer has to keep people playing f2p games. Especially when they are controlling all of the aspects of the game and there are so many other economical methods to achieve similar results.
Subscription games thrive by getting players to play and achieve that by offering content to take part it.
F2P games thrive off cash shops alone and actually benefit by restricting players and limiting content.
Apart they make decent models, but combined they make strange bedfellows
Free to play works extremely well because the incentive is to ALWAYS have something new coming out.
But of course the problem is that the game can devolve into nickel and diming, coming out with small bits of content that may not be wholey worth it.
The incentive for free to play games is to get players into the cash shop by any means. That can be accomplished by removing content from normal access or development cycles. It can be done by tweaking xp curves or drop rates of items. Etc etc.
Having something ALWAYS coming out is the most expensive option a game developer has to keep people playing f2p games. Especially when they are controlling all of the aspects of the game and there are so many other economical methods to achieve similar results.
Subscription games thrive by getting players to play and achieve that by offering content to take part it.
F2P games thrive off cash shops alone and actually benefit by restricting players and limiting content.
Apart they make decent models, but combined they make strange bedfellows
But this isn't just a f2p game, it's a hybrid. You may also choose to sub to the game. Yes, there is a cash shop, but not too many games are left that don't have one of some kind. Even WoW has a cash shop. I guess they removed those items from normal access or development cycles?
Free to play works extremely well because the incentive is to ALWAYS have something new coming out.
But of course the problem is that the game can devolve into nickel and diming, coming out with small bits of content that may not be wholey worth it.
The incentive for free to play games is to get players into the cash shop by any means. That can be accomplished by removing content from normal access or development cycles. It can be done by tweaking xp curves or drop rates of items. Etc etc.
Having something ALWAYS coming out is the most expensive option a game developer has to keep people playing f2p games. Especially when they are controlling all of the aspects of the game and there are so many other economical methods to achieve similar results.
Subscription games thrive by getting players to play and achieve that by offering content to take part it.
F2P games thrive off cash shops alone and actually benefit by restricting players and limiting content.
Apart they make decent models, but combined they make strange bedfellows
But this isn't just a f2p game, it's a hybrid. You may also choose to sub to the game. Yes, there is a cash shop, but not too many games are left that don't have one of some kind. Even WoW has a cash shop. I guess they removed those items from normal access or development cycles?
Really bad comparisson. Thats apples and oranges when compared to what Turbine is doing.
Free to play works extremely well because the incentive is to ALWAYS have something new coming out.
But of course the problem is that the game can devolve into nickel and diming, coming out with small bits of content that may not be wholey worth it.
The incentive for free to play games is to get players into the cash shop by any means. That can be accomplished by removing content from normal access or development cycles. It can be done by tweaking xp curves or drop rates of items. Etc etc.
Having something ALWAYS coming out is the most expensive option a game developer has to keep people playing f2p games. Especially when they are controlling all of the aspects of the game and there are so many other economical methods to achieve similar results.
Subscription games thrive by getting players to play and achieve that by offering content to take part it.
F2P games thrive off cash shops alone and actually benefit by restricting players and limiting content.
Apart they make decent models, but combined they make strange bedfellows
Well that is the slippery slope isn't it? I get that free to play games are about making things a bit difficult or making it so that a player might want to take the edge off. The thing is, there aren't many free to play games that don't feel like junky cash grabs.
My thought is that this is about to change.
Most free to play games that I've tried have always felt like the developers went into their hard drive of art assets and threw things together quickly, got a writer to make some stuff and then released it so that it could gather as much money as it could before they did the next one.
But I think we will start seeing better put together free to play games as time moves on. Allod's already showed that it could be done, though they made that horrible mistake with their intiial pricing and the appearance that players needed to purchase certain things or else they "might" be screwed.
The pay to play games have always felt more well thought out. However the pay to play games just take too long to put content out. I have no problem with paying a game developer additional money to put out additional content on a regular basis.
And I would think that it would be in the pay to play developers interest to constantly have content.
In retail, they have this thing where they want to keep you in the store as long as possible. Longer you are in the store the more chances you are to buy somethign. So of course this fits free to play very well. However, my point is that if you lose your audience, you lose their attention, they will go elsewhere. This is where pay to play games fail in my opinion. They are too slow putting out content. they just are.
As I've said, people are constantly making posts on these and other forums about how "bored" the are and how they quit so they could go to something else.
Websites are like that as well. They have to capture the viewer's attention and make them want to stay or else they will go elsewhere. It's just too easy to click to another site.
Pay to play games might be less expensive for the player in the long run but they also have a harder time with only so many expansions per year. Though Sony seems to do better with EQ 2 but they charge for those little expansions. And this to me is a good thing. I am more than willing to pay for new content provided I find it of value.
I never mind if something costs more so long as it is of good value. But your mileage may vary on that.
In any case, I'm all for Turbine's new model to a point. That point is that we are going to be seeing mention of the store everywhere and it will just be "in your face". That cheapens the whole experience for me.
But we'll see.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
What is laughable is the idea that these games are free to play - I mean seriously, enough with the wordsmithing. They are paid enterprises and if they where realisticly or legitimately free to play they would go broke.
They are free to play. I've spent some hours in DDO and haven't paid a thing. And I quite enjoyed that time, too. Sure, not everything is free, but the core is, and it's decently satisfying. You can also spend time in DDO to gain money for the store, which might happen in LotRO, too. Yes, you will most likely need to pay if you want to get everything in the game, but that's not any different than having the free version of an application (antivirus, video converter, whatever) having limited functionality compared to the paid version. Doesn't make it in any way less free.
I find it totaly funny that it says full details of the cash shop. When they are still in beta with it, and gosh knows what is and what is not going to be covered.
One thing is for sure it will be a lot like the ddo one. After all kate was moved over from ddo to lotro in order to do that.
Nobody knows what is really going to be in the shop until it goes live whenever that is, so until then this is all just conjecture.
One thing for sure, get ready to open up your wallet. I know I keep hearing folks slay they never spend a dime, I am sure some do, but turbine/wb is betting a lot of those folks will.
Oh well sad state of affairs when you have to go this route to save your game, and or grow your balance sheet.
Comments
The way I understand it you can continue to earn gold and it will be stored for you, but you will only have access to a maximum of 2 GP at any time for purchases, so no deluxe houses or horses unless you are premium player. it's just further incentive for someone who's on the fence to go premium.
That's my beef right there with F2P and the deception it stands for.
It's not about making the game worthy of the customer to stay on and keep paying. F2P is about having you pay for numerous services / items / etc. because game design was made in such a way that things are inconvenient.
The grind is a notorious example. In a P2P game, excessive grinds will drive people and their money away. In a F2P game, the grind can be made horrendous, by design. You CAN play through the game with it, but the time sink becomes immense, usually once you're "mid level" and no longer in the early stages of character levelling (by mid level, they're banking on you to stay on because you've devoted alot of time on that toon already. They already got you by the balls). You're slaving away with the long grind but what's this? Some big advertisement on the game launcher talking about Item Mall benefits that give temporary but significant XP bonuses? Or, if that's not convincing, you can pay for another little map zone that has NPCs that give larger XP and other rewards. Better yet, why don't you get the XP buff potion AND that little map zone?
Congrats buddy, they just got you. Hook, Line, and Sinker.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Bingo.
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And in an asian grind MMO that might be true. However, assuming this is ignoring what was done in DDO. It's not like right after they made the switch to the hybrid model they made the game more grindy. In fact what you have said really only applies in general to a fully F2P MMO where the only revenue is made from item malls. In a hybrid game like DDO and LotRO there is not the need to do this since a lot of revenue still comes from subscriptions.
I disagree. Even if we accept that much of the revenue, over time, still comes from subs (which I am not entirely sure is true, over time) the influx of free players dictates that they will need to get money from these players in some way as they cost the game money in terms of supporting them. So either grinds will increase to get them to buy ways around the grinds or they will have to cash shop more and more goodies to try to monetize these people. Either way, it serves as two poor motivators for negative trends. And if you look at DDO you can see this with the new class being introduced, even to subscribers, and requiring purchase on the cash shop or a lengthy grind to unlock (whereas the previous class added under P2P was simply included for all with no unlock or extra purchase). Over the long haul I think the pressure will definitely move things more to the F2P way of things rather than the hybrid/subscription though as box sales don't exists anymore as source of revenue nor do expansion sales. Hybrid may mean it takes longer to get some of the worst things about F2P but they will come nevertheless.
People make the mistake in seeing this F2P hybrid thing as a way for them to draw in more subscribers when it clearly is not intended to do that. Instead, the hybrid F2P model is about conditioning subscribers to the F2P model in a way that is not threatening to start and that will soften the blow over time. How can we know this, well, easy - if the goal was to get more subscribers then the cash shop stuff would all be unnecessary and things would be structured around you paying X dollars per month to get access to this or that area while having the cheaper option of less than X to get all access per month. By example, you buy monthly access to two or three areas for $5 or $10 a month or buy all access for $15 where buying all the areas individually costs more than the $15. What they are doing, however, is selling the areas without time restrictions so there is no direct comparison to the subscription, and over time as the revenue from people's one time purchase of the various areas is not coming in anymore the game will need to shift to more F2P type stuff to drive more revenue (i.e. grind avoidance or direct purchasing of power in cash shop).
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In DDO the new class costs Turbine Points which subscribers now get for free each month. Saying that you either need to pay for it or grind for it is a bit misleading.
That being said, I disagree thaat the new players take a lot of resources since they do not get the same customer service as subscribers which only leaves the servers. Now if we look at DDO so far (and I will admit it is still only a year out so it could change) they have seen a revenue increase to 5x their original revenue. This has been done without adding a large grind like Warmachine was talking about. With that there is no need to increase the grind of the game.
Obviously they need to make the item shop attractive and that might mean putting things on there that normal subscribers don't get as well. However, Turbine so far has treated its subscribers properally and has made sure they have a way of getting these things without paying extra money on top of what they already do.
Now I can see an increase in things hitting the F2P store as you said, because there are no longer expansions. However, if they are actually putting in content with those updates as DDO has been (again so far) then there is little difference between that and buying an expansion. The main difference is that subscribers still have a way of paying for it without spending extra money.
The class, surely unintentionally, costs more Turbine points to unlock than are included with a months subscription. So either you have to subscribe for two months, grind it unlocked in game, or buy it - either way it is a substantial change from the previous class added which was avaialble on to all subscribers on day on of that patch. Such is the difference between subscribing in a F2P hybrid and a traditional P2P game and it is on point to the grind issue and adding hurdles you have to buy your way around.
Well, you would be wrong on this. Consider this, if opening this up to anyone to play for free (albeit play a gimped version of the game for free) then why doesn't everyone do this? It is expensive as it means you are supporting lots of downloads of the game, logins to the game, and players playing on your servers many of which (some say the ratio is as much as 80% not paying to 20% paying) are not paying a dime. Yes, bandwidth and server costs are not what they used to be but opening things up like this is extremenly expensive especially since you are getting not a dime from these 'new' people unless you entice them to spend money in the cash shop.
Forget the have to or don't have to part though I would aruge you are far underestimating the have to part of things. What about the strong invcentive to DEVs to design things to not just get some of the free folks to need to spend but to do the same to subscribers. Are we so naive as to think these devs are not going to see the potential revenue of getting just some of the subscribers to start needing, or even wanting, cash shop goodies? Come on. And as for Turbine treating its subscribers right I would point you to this (Turbine/SuperRewards offer wall), now tell me how well they treat their subscribers and tell me how it is liekly to get better now that Turbine is just a cog in the WB machine?
Again, buying what was expansions in small pieces here and there is not going to be cheaper than buying it in one piece - this is undeniable fact of F2P numero uno. By example, DDO offered up over 9 major content updates as P2P (called MODs) and not a single one of them cost subscribers a single penny. Under F2p youcan rest assured that your $15 a month will not get you the same full access at no additonal charge and probably will cost you extra money or maybe at the least cost you some hefty in game grinds.
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First of all, let me say I never meant to imply that Turbine is incapable of doing wrong and that they always treat us great. I meant only in terms of giving us a way of getting these things without paying extra money. That being said, I don't think it matters that the class cost two months of subscription. It's not as if they are releasing these every month. Noe maybe this will change and then I will be singing a different tune, but so far they have made it perfectly easy to never pay a dime in the store for subscribers.
As for "why doesn't everyone do this?" I think that there has been a general view that $15 a month was what was making the most. That's because when it was created it was the best for that market. Now that has changed a bit. Now will it work? That is still to be seen, but if LotRO gains a lot of revenue from this switch then it is very possible that more games will be switching to this model. I don't think that there is this mystical knowledge on what works best at any time.
Again, it isn't a question of whether you think the change to how a class was 'included' before but not 'costs' time or money is agregious or not it is the fact that it does represent a substantial change in line with the 'what was included will cost' warnings. And as I said, this is the start - as people get over thier F2P qualms you can rest assured it will cost more.
Again, you are taking a myopic view of things with little knowledge of the real mechanics of the finance and business elements involved. For example, DDO and LotRO both made substantial revenue from box sales so that revenue is funding the shift to F2P, even today. But over time the costs of keeping F2P going will have to be covered more and more just from the players playing which means more and more typical F2P type pricing and grind type stuff. Additionally, if the game(s) do legitimately allow you to play for free then subs will decline as people who bought boxes and therefore have all the area unlocks will not find reason to pay monthly, at which point the F2P model has to insert grinds and other things people will need to pay to avoid - such is the reality of F2P.
The simple fact of the matter is that the game cannot really be F2P or people will play for free and Turbine will make no more moeny to offset the lost revenue of box sales and subs or recoup the extra costs of downloads and new players. So the whole debate is really silly - it is an undebniable debate that F2P is about making more of fewer people and while the hybrid models makes this simple model more complex the fact remains that they will be milking those who do pay, subscribers and otherwise, for more to cover the costs of those who do not pay.
And BTW - the argument of how the new class was handled in DDO is not tired, it is spot on and to the point that what you got with a P2P subscription is quite different than what you get in F2P subscription.
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Well I will say that you have made some interesting points. However, right now there is little to suibstantiate it. Yes there have been a couple instances of subscribers in DDO needing to use their points to get things. However, it has not been big and it has not led to grinding yet.
That being said, I will be the first one to say I was wrong if this changes a lot. Perhaps you are right and there will be bigger changes. And if that happens I am not so blind that I won't leave.
All we can do is wait and see really. I will be on one side of the issue and you will be on the other.
Originally posted by AgtSmith
Originally posted by Vagrant_Zero
And here is the gaurantee that grinds will get worse with F2P cash shop being introduced, because there will be enough people who will pay to avoid them. This will ruin MMOs as the devs will make money from grinds getting worse and worse and the various cash shop items being needed more and more. Sure, it starts out inoculously an dinnocent but it is all about the frog in the water and turning up the heat slowly to a boil.
- Has anyone pointed out that the grinds Vagrant_Zero was talking about (names/titles, traits, deeds etc...) aren't mandatory? Pretty much they're handled in one of three ways; ignore them, let them come as you play or wait until you get to be a high level with nothing else to do and go back and grind deeds.
They're not needed to level or to complete quests or advance the storyline. They're just little extra's for you to customize your toon. When I was playing I never met anyone that was grinding traits, that wasn't a high level.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
You guys really need to quit refering to and hoping for the Nice guy Mr Turbine, when speaking of LoTRo and DDO among others they no longer own them and wont be long before there devs filter there way out from Warner Bros.. Happens everytime...
Where Turbine had a labor of love involved in these games .. Warner bros sees 1 thing $$$$....And whhen they are thru wringing the wet towel in 18 months the will shut down or sell these IPs again ..
And what many folks are missing here is this is Time Warner.. Warner Bros is a subsidary of Time Warner ..
Time Warner has been $%itting on consumers ,players and fans for 5 decades .. From every form of entertainment there is , Baseball, Baskeball, TV , video games , Amusement PArks,Internet , Movies, Cable etc the list is long and ugly of the companies , teams,invenitors , creators and artists that they buy up ,Eat , Digest , removing all that was good and SH*t you out whats left then sell you off .....
But LoTRO will be different , they wouldnt dare defile Mr Tolkien .. LMFAO ... get a grip
Yeah your all so clever. Want some reality with your whine? The reality is that everything is yearly rising in prices, from expenditures to taxes to wages(usually in that order). Another reality is that it takes longer to make a new model/landscape for a game like AoC or LoTRO compared to lets say EQ, Ultima or even WoW. More polygons/physics/bandwith more work/cost, should be obvious. These days you simply need more developers to deliver the same amount of content.
Despite all this everyone still expects 15$ to cover it, the same 15$ we paid 10 years ago. Its just not possible. Everybody gets that a Blueray Disc costs more than a DVD, it has higher quality after all. But with games, it has to be 40-50$ for the box and in case of subscriptions 10-15$, regardless of quality or operating expenses. Anyone here surprised that quality has to give way in light of this? Every year these companies see their profits sinking, while being told that gamers are unwilling to pay more. Obviously they begin to fire developers, hire cheaper younger ones, shrink the teams working on the games are simply expecting the same work in less time.
And that brings me back to Turbines F2P model. Ofc they have plain buisness reasons to go to a model with higher revenue, but it was also plain for everyone who actually played the game to see that Turbine was unable to deliver a quality product/service with the funding they had available. You see that in the way major bugs linger for months and how paltry content updates have become.
If it was just Turbine i would blame them at once for just being greedy and just not reinvesting the money they made properly back into the game. But when the last successful MMO launch is now 6 years in the past, maybe we should look for the problem elsewhere.
I don't think a lot of people are going to see it this way, but I think you are spot on correct.
So deeds are a boring grind and now developers are asking for money to avoid the boring aspect of the game. To me that is rewarding developers for making something boring or not redesigning a system that isn't very entertaining. This isn't a F2P vs Subscription argument at all, but paying to avoid boring gameplay is such an alien concept to what a game should be about that I just don't understand how anyone could applaud that as being good.
Not everything game altering has to be about stats and hit points. When it becomes more financially viable for a game developer to ignore poor features or intentially create lacking gameplay then something has gone terribly wrong. Designing a game with the mentality of "this will be fun as long as players pay extra for it" just doesn't feel like a sustainable model to me.
I agree. Most are not seeing it this way. Some are seeing Turbine saying nothing is going to change and some that would never pay a sub to play the game are seeing, well, a free game. Deeds are girndy but I never had a problem completing them in a reasonable time. But once Turbine sees how many will pay to avoid the grind, I believe you will see more and more gind and more and more potions/tomes to alleviate it.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
I think both of you sum it up well. The problem is not whether Turbine has pure or tainted motives with this move it is that the monetization of gameplay, as exists in F2P, fundamentally changes the game in a way that inevitably leads to its corruption in to the whole nickel and dime thing and buying avoidance of grinds or buying not being gimped. Even if they are starting all this with pure motives the dollars to be made from increasing a grind here and there, reducing loot rate of that cash shop item, etc, etc, etc, is too much to be avoided. This is why I argue that a sub to a F2P game, even a hybrid which is less obvious on its face, is not the same as a sub to a P2P game where the goal of the developers is to simply improve the overall game enough to make subscribers want to buy another month.
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Ugh... i know im pretty much wasting my time since youve repeatedly ignored the point in various threads, but i suppose there's hope that one day you'll be able to grasp this...
If people did not enjoy playing an F2P and the devs did not work on making the overall game enjoyable, would anyone bother paying for anything? Of course not, yet obviously people do or else they wouldnt be so common. By your logic devs think themselves "Well we could make this more enjoyable to our players, but oh no that would make people actually want to play our game and spend some money, we better not do that?" You can't really be that dense.
Both P2P and F2P have different methods of getting money out of you, one requires you to keep paying to play IF you enjoy the game, the other allows you play the game all you want and pay for whatever you choose to pay for IF you enjoy the game. Both require developers to make the game enjoyable to those playing, or else nobody pays for anything. What is so hard to understand about that?
In Agent Smith's defense, his argument isn't flawed it's just not exactly correct in real world application.
Sort of like saying socialism is bad. if you look at it, it's really not bad at all. In fact it's great. Everyone gets food, shelter, education, etc. That's not bad right? But in real world application it can fall short because of how people tend to abuse these systems. Capitalism of course has its own abuses but I digress...
He asserts that pay to play works because the incentive is making the game as great as possible to retain subs. The reality seems that it "works" but not extremely well.
Just watch these forums and we find people ending subs right and left, game hopping, etc. And then there are people waiting for expansions or content updates but they are months coming out.
So sure, pay to play does give incentive for devs to make great content but it just doesn't work very well in keeping subs or at least doesn't keep many people in the game once they get to the end. People are then stuck making alts, doing pvp if that is there bag and running raids over and over again and of course waiting months and months for something new to come out.
Free to play works extremely well because the incentive is to ALWAYS have something new coming out.
But of course the problem is that the game can devolve into nickel and diming, coming out with small bits of content that may not be wholey worth it.
Look at Dragon Age's downloadable content. I like most of them very much. But though I enjoyed them they didn't really seem to be as full as I would have liked. Even the larger expansion could have used some more love. There was one great story line which reallly could have gone somewhere and it was ended so fast that I had to look at my screen and say "that was it?"
So it's a fine line for these games.
Either way, if players are not happy they leave. They do it all the time. Pay to play doesn't guarantee anything and more often than not people leave to find something new. I know I've cancelled my LOTRO sub several times because I had done everything I had wanted to do. I even gave up founder pricing because though it was ten dollars per month I wasn't logging in.
So maybe this free to play/hybrid model will bring in more content at a faster rate.
Though I feel that there will be a strong sense of "buy now and get a new hat with every purchase!"
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The incentive for free to play games is to get players into the cash shop by any means. That can be accomplished by removing content from normal access or development cycles. It can be done by tweaking xp curves or drop rates of items. Etc etc.
Having something ALWAYS coming out is the most expensive option a game developer has to keep people playing f2p games. Especially when they are controlling all of the aspects of the game and there are so many other economical methods to achieve similar results.
Subscription games thrive by getting players to play and achieve that by offering content to take part it.
F2P games thrive off cash shops alone and actually benefit by restricting players and limiting content.
Apart they make decent models, but combined they make strange bedfellows
But this isn't just a f2p game, it's a hybrid. You may also choose to sub to the game. Yes, there is a cash shop, but not too many games are left that don't have one of some kind. Even WoW has a cash shop. I guess they removed those items from normal access or development cycles?
Really bad comparisson. Thats apples and oranges when compared to what Turbine is doing.
Well that is the slippery slope isn't it? I get that free to play games are about making things a bit difficult or making it so that a player might want to take the edge off. The thing is, there aren't many free to play games that don't feel like junky cash grabs.
My thought is that this is about to change.
Most free to play games that I've tried have always felt like the developers went into their hard drive of art assets and threw things together quickly, got a writer to make some stuff and then released it so that it could gather as much money as it could before they did the next one.
But I think we will start seeing better put together free to play games as time moves on. Allod's already showed that it could be done, though they made that horrible mistake with their intiial pricing and the appearance that players needed to purchase certain things or else they "might" be screwed.
The pay to play games have always felt more well thought out. However the pay to play games just take too long to put content out. I have no problem with paying a game developer additional money to put out additional content on a regular basis.
And I would think that it would be in the pay to play developers interest to constantly have content.
In retail, they have this thing where they want to keep you in the store as long as possible. Longer you are in the store the more chances you are to buy somethign. So of course this fits free to play very well. However, my point is that if you lose your audience, you lose their attention, they will go elsewhere. This is where pay to play games fail in my opinion. They are too slow putting out content. they just are.
As I've said, people are constantly making posts on these and other forums about how "bored" the are and how they quit so they could go to something else.
Websites are like that as well. They have to capture the viewer's attention and make them want to stay or else they will go elsewhere. It's just too easy to click to another site.
Pay to play games might be less expensive for the player in the long run but they also have a harder time with only so many expansions per year. Though Sony seems to do better with EQ 2 but they charge for those little expansions. And this to me is a good thing. I am more than willing to pay for new content provided I find it of value.
I never mind if something costs more so long as it is of good value. But your mileage may vary on that.
In any case, I'm all for Turbine's new model to a point. That point is that we are going to be seeing mention of the store everywhere and it will just be "in your face". That cheapens the whole experience for me.
But we'll see.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
They are free to play. I've spent some hours in DDO and haven't paid a thing. And I quite enjoyed that time, too. Sure, not everything is free, but the core is, and it's decently satisfying. You can also spend time in DDO to gain money for the store, which might happen in LotRO, too. Yes, you will most likely need to pay if you want to get everything in the game, but that's not any different than having the free version of an application (antivirus, video converter, whatever) having limited functionality compared to the paid version. Doesn't make it in any way less free.
I find it totaly funny that it says full details of the cash shop. When they are still in beta with it, and gosh knows what is and what is not going to be covered.
One thing is for sure it will be a lot like the ddo one. After all kate was moved over from ddo to lotro in order to do that.
Nobody knows what is really going to be in the shop until it goes live whenever that is, so until then this is all just conjecture.
One thing for sure, get ready to open up your wallet. I know I keep hearing folks slay they never spend a dime, I am sure some do, but turbine/wb is betting a lot of those folks will.
Oh well sad state of affairs when you have to go this route to save your game, and or grow your balance sheet.