Most of the MMOs out there are MMORPGs, and your concept doesn't fit the RPG part. Playing an MMORPG means that people can be something they are not in real...even a 70 years old man can play a young, strong, fast warrior. Adding real life skills into MMORPGs would ruin the original concept of these games.
MMOs without RPG are different questions, real life skills can work there.
I agree. IMO, MMORPG's should be all about a time spent in your character. There shouldn't be limits in your characters power, skills, levels, etc.. All this PvP crap ruins the whole RPG part of a game when everyone should be equally powerful for smashing each others faces. There is already a different genre for that and it's called FPS.
Or....MMOFPS, not to be confused with MMORPG. I think there are a lot of things being called mmoRPG these days....that really aren't. I agree with what you said. The MMO genre today has many many many sub-genres, which I think is WONDERFUL! However...I do think more attention needs to be paid to the genre labeling OF said games. I wouldn't much like it if a game was labeled action/adventure and I fired it up to find an RTS game there. I feel the same about today's vast variety of MMOs and MOGs.
As far as "adding skill" to MMORPGs or MMOs in general....that is TRULY a subjective thing. To my mother, who has watched me play EQ2, for example....she thinks I am RIDICULOUSLY skilled. And next to her...I am. She can't even figure out how to use a mouse and keyboard....and that's not a slam....she'd be the first to admit that computers are just not "her thing."
To someone who's only brush with gaming is "Farmville" (ugh...I don't even consider it a game, but that's beside the point)....if they were to watch ANY OF US play ANY MMO....they would think we were skilled. Now if you're comparing skills from MMO player TO MMO players, you would think that would change somewhat, but again...it really doesn't. There are too many variables within the genre itself and each feature in the game requires SOME sort of skill set. For instance....number crunchers that are "skilled mathematicians" are good at min/maxing. People with a keen sense of color and design are "skilled" at decorating homes in EQ2 and even building things in homes that are made out of various other parts to create something entirely new. THAT skill is called "creativity." Then you have the FPS style skills that generally work well in PvP features. See....if you're ONLY talking about game "combat skills" you're also leaving out assorted other features that require other, what could be considered "skill sets."
The funny thing is....some of the people that are screaming for "more skill requirements," think that the "skill" they are talking about is the ONLY "skill" that matters. Frankly, I think whether something IS a skill is, in part, subjective. But yes....I think games of all kinds take "skills" of varying degrees. When you start increasing the difficulty of a game in any skill set area, it does create more challenge in whatever area you're focused on. I like that idea. I enjoy new challenges. But we're still talking about GAMES here....it's not like they do, or even SHOULD, require an aeronautics degree to play them.. Although I'm sure if someone made a game that did.....there would be millions of people whining for a NERF.
OP is looking for an MMOFPS which is a genre largely unexplored by developers (outside of a few games like Planetside) largely because if a player really wants to test their "twitch" skills they normally play FPS games.
Combat is a secondary goal for most players of MMORPG's, they appeal to people interested in interacting socially and not necessarily just to kill each other.
Could the genre use a few games like the OP wants? Sure, but its just one of the many unfilled niches that doesn't really appeal to large development houses who want their games to appeal to the broadest possible audience.
I was careful to to put "rpg" anywhere in my op. So yes, naturally I am not wanting to step on the toes of the traditionalists. But, Cliff Blizynski (sp?) creater of Gears of War is on record as saying the future of FPS(TPS) are RPGs. With games like Mass Effect 2, Bioshock, etc I agree with him.
So while what I describe is not an "RPG" as classically defined It is not a mindless FPS either. It is a fantasy world where your "avatar" progresses much like in real life but you get to "role play" as someone more physically gifted that yourself. The only skill barrier in this type of game is the only skill barrier in most hardcore shooters or fighters.
You won't see a lot of MMO"s with twitch fps gameplay because companies want to make money, and not to cater to a small niche playerbase. A lot of the so called "hardcore PvPers" aren't even good at twitch gameplay, so you are really looking at a small sector of the playerbase that may or may not even embrace a MMO with twitch fps.
I played AC1 darktide back during the early 2000's and it was great fun. Turbine didn't design the game to be twtich but it turned out that way. Through a glitch or two in the game, people were able to twitch play. Now while that was fun for me, it wasn't for a lot of the people. As you could see, AC1 catered to a very small niche playerbase, awhile games like EQ and DAOC went on to capture a large percentage of the MMO playerbase....both PvE and PvP.
So for you to see more twitch MMO's, you need to either somehow be able to convince companies to create games for a small niche playerbase, or you need to have a lot of money to fund your own game.
I think all MMO's have some sort of skills attached to it. But perhaps OP should've replaced "skill" in the subject with "twitch" because that's what he's looking for. Being able to twtich doesn't make you more "skilled" than the other, it simply makes you be able to twitch better than the average keyboard turner. I've seen plenty of twitch fps players absolutely suck at RTS strategy games.
There is a larger amount of people playing call of duty and halo than wow . Research before you call that niche :P.
On youtube, there are dozens of WoW pvp videos of people who are so good that they fight naked, eg, without equipment against fully geared opponents. And they win.
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What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?
What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?
That's a very good question.
Personally I don't think "skill" has to mean twitchy shooter skills and I wouldn't particularly want that in a MMORPG. But there is that other type of skill which mostly involves situational awarness and doing the right things at the right times. So far I don't think any game has fully explored the possibilities of that type of skill.
There really could be a lot more intricacy to it. There could be a system with a lot of reactionary give and take between opponents. You see that your opponent is preparing to perform a certain move and have one second to decide how you will react or attack before both of your moves execute. The results of that flurry of combat could create advantages or vulnerabilities which might make certain other moves potentially more effective and so on. Not twitchy but it would require you to really pay attention to what's happening and make quick decisions based on the changing circumstances.
So far as I know MMORPGs have only just barely scratched the surface of what could be done along those lines.
This is actually a good way of pointing out a version of "twitch" play that isn't "Shooting". Reaction time, is something that people are good or bad at and something they can get better at.
That is skilled game play that could be in MMOs right now but is missing. (still twitch though sense it works off reaction time)
What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?
That's a very good question.
Personally I don't think "skill" has to mean twitchy shooter skills and I wouldn't particularly want that in a MMORPG. But there is that other type of skill which mostly involves situational awarness and doing the right things at the right times. So far I don't think any game has fully explored the possibilities of that type of skill.
There really could be a lot more intricacy to it. There could be a system with a lot of reactionary give and take between opponents. You see that your opponent is preparing to perform a certain move and have one second to decide how you will react or attack before both of your moves execute. The results of that flurry of combat could create advantages or vulnerabilities which might make certain other moves potentially more effective and so on. Not twitchy but it would require you to really pay attention to what's happening and make quick decisions based on the changing circumstances.
So far as I know MMORPGs have only just barely scratched the surface of what could be done along those lines.
With the games becoming simpler and simpler, they are actually straying away from this - for the more casual player.
There are plenty of games that required more skill than they do now... without having to be "twitch" based.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
There is a larger amount of people playing call of duty and halo than wow . Research before you call that niche :P.
It's niche until these CoD & Halo players start playing MMO's. You should do some studies and surveys before assuming fps players want to level characters and go through the MMO grind.
What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?
That's a very good question.
Personally I don't think "skill" has to mean twitchy shooter skills and I wouldn't particularly want that in a MMORPG. But there is that other type of skill which mostly involves situational awarness and doing the right things at the right times. So far I don't think any game has fully explored the possibilities of that type of skill.
There really could be a lot more intricacy to it. There could be a system with a lot of reactionary give and take between opponents. You see that your opponent is preparing to perform a certain move and have one second to decide how you will react or attack before both of your moves execute. The results of that flurry of combat could create advantages or vulnerabilities which might make certain other moves potentially more effective and so on. Not twitchy but it would require you to really pay attention to what's happening and make quick decisions based on the changing circumstances.
So far as I know MMORPGs have only just barely scratched the surface of what could be done along those lines.
With the games becoming simpler and simpler, they are actually straying away from this - for the more casual player.
There are plenty of games that required more skill than they do now... without having to be "twitch" based.
Well there needs to be all types of games!! MMORPGS, MMOFPS, MMORTS, etc.
Some of them should be dumbed down and some should be intricate. Problem is most AAA mmos play follow the leader because they need too to create revinue. Its gonna take a company with huge juevos to try something like a true open world MMOFPS (not necisarily a shooter mind you).
There is a larger amount of people playing call of duty and halo than wow . Research before you call that niche :P.
It's niche until these CoD & Halo players start playing MMO's. You should do some studies and surveys before assuming fps players want to level characters and go through the MMO grind.
There are levels in both COD and Halo. 50 in MW1 and two I think. Ask these same players if they would like a persistant battlefield in which there battles mattered and most will say HELL YES.
A true MMOFPS would not be the same beast as a MMORPG. It would have completely different positives and negatives and would probably not have much pve grinding at all.
Most of the MMOs out there are MMORPGs, and your concept doesn't fit the RPG part. Playing an MMORPG means that people can be something they are not in real...even a 70 years old man can play a young, strong, fast warrior. Adding real life skills into MMORPGs would ruin the original concept of these games.
MMOs without RPG are different questions, real life skills can work there.
I agree. IMO, MMORPG's should be all about a time spent in your character. There shouldn't be limits in your characters power, skills, levels, etc.. All this PvP crap ruins the whole RPG part of a game when everyone should be equally powerful for smashing each others faces. There is already a different genre for that and it's called FPS.
You could still roleplay in a world dominated by skill. There would be a pecking order though and you would need to practice. I dont think this would be a bad situation because it mirrors how life is for most human beings and we still have people who are sports superstars and people who still enjoy playing sports even thought they suck
IE. Tiger Woods playing golf = really good, Me playing golf = horrible :P
No. The main point of an RPG is that you can be Tiger Woods in the game. You can be a hero, a beautiful elf, the strongest warrior of the world...even if you suck in golf in real life, you can be the best in the game. Thats why so many people play MMORPGs....for fun and for getaway of real life limits. Don't implements the limits into the games.
I think Skill in MMOs do exist, maybe is not an active skill, but there is indeed skill in MMO, in shooter games you get Strategy Skills and Aim Skills, in MMOs you get Knowledge, Timing, Strategy.
Knowledge: You need to know what stat is better for you, what kind of gear is better for your class.
Timing: When to use "X" Skill or "Y" Skill, when to move behind a pillar to get LoS of your enemy.
Strategy: To comunicate with your team and tell them "Hey theres a Rogue HERE", "Get this Warrior off me", "Sheep the priest"
On youtube, there are dozens of WoW pvp videos of people who are so good that they fight naked, eg, without equipment against fully geared opponents. And they win.
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What is skill exactly? Is pushing a button at the right time a skill?
Dont forget PvE in WoW.
Most people cant even beat HC Lich King
Numbers will usually bypass skill. Sure you can see a guy naked owning people who don't notice being owned.
The moment people decide to stay in group, it's all about what team got the best focus/ organisation. The OP said he wanted to get ganked by 3 people and roar in victory over their body. you see that happening? I mean rogue/ druid stun + 2 allies hitting on you. Your crippled, slowed to death, stunned, or simply outdamaged. I don't think anyone can survive a 3 man gank in wow.
What makes people unable to beat HC lich king is just the same that makes people unable to beat a lvl 80 with a lvl 1.
Even if the level 80 was afk for days, a lvl 1 could never kill him.
Skill is in the game. On the PvE side, macros and mods usually end up doing most of the work (chaining skills, warnings on what to do next). Crippled performances are at the menu if no use of tools that do the work better than human hands and brain.
I think it's safe to say that modern MMORPGs do not follow this model, but I've always felt that mmorpgs originated as social experiments, where player interaction is valued over player skill. Even today, mmorpgs are a type of video game which requires a retention rate of a critical mass of players, and devs see fit to maintain that retention rate as best as they can by making a game which can, in some form, be accesibile to all players. If an mmorpg is released which requires as much skill to play as online Starcraft, Quake III, or Tekken, then I can't see that game attracting a very large playerbase.
I agree and with network limitations they have stayed as such. But, what about the future? We are getting faster internet connections and maybe an open world "borderlands" MMOFPS could suck in some of the 8million halo players or 7million CoD players?
It really is the MMORPG combat that is keeping those players away fro massively multiplayer games.
For one, I doubt that the combined figures of 15 million players is all that acurate, but even if it is, are 15 million people playing online on a regular basis? Would they still be playing five years after release, and if so, would they be willing to pay 15 dollars a month?
What is a skilled carpenter? . Someone who knows how to cut a straight line? Someone who know what kind of wood to use to frame a wall? . Knowing which button to smash and when to do it isn't a very complex skill, but it's still a skill. Not everyone has fast enough reflexes to see that priest casting a healing spell and kick him before the spell goes off.
You won't see a lot of MMO"s with twitch fps gameplay because companies want to make money, and not to cater to a small niche playerbase. A lot of the so called "hardcore PvPers" aren't even good at twitch gameplay, so you are really looking at a small sector of the playerbase that may or may not even embrace a MMO with twitch fps.
I played AC1 darktide back during the early 2000's and it was great fun. Turbine didn't design the game to be twtich but it turned out that way. Through a glitch or two in the game, people were able to twitch play. Now while that was fun for me, it wasn't for a lot of the people. As you could see, AC1 catered to a very small niche playerbase, awhile games like EQ and DAOC went on to capture a large percentage of the MMO playerbase....both PvE and PvP.
So for you to see more twitch MMO's, you need to either somehow be able to convince companies to create games for a small niche playerbase, or you need to have a lot of money to fund your own game.
I think all MMO's have some sort of skills attached to it. But perhaps OP should've replaced "skill" in the subject with "twitch" because that's what he's looking for. Being able to twtich doesn't make you more "skilled" than the other, it simply makes you be able to twitch better than the average keyboard turner. I've seen plenty of twitch fps players absolutely suck at RTS strategy games.
Whoa man, lol don't put twitch or more action oriented combat in a niche category. Those are the best selling games now days. RPG's have become the niche.
It isn't about being "Hardcore" it's about playing something more interactive thats a bit more fun that press button and wait.
Single players have evolved to where most are action oriented because thats where the money is. There is still room for slower paced games which Dragon Age proved but look at most of the top selling games out there. I wouldn't call it a niche genre by a long shot lol.
Someone who knows how to cut a straight line? Someone who know what kind of wood to use to frame a wall?
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Knowing which button to smash and when to do it isn't a very complex skill, but it's still a skill. Not everyone has fast enough reflexes to see that priest casting a healing spell and kick him before the spell goes off.
I miss when games did not display enemy cast bars...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
No i don't need outright skill to be much of a factor in a PVE genre,for FPS's then yes ,it should be about skill AND thinking or i should say ,outthinking your opponent.
I am pretty much satisfied with the general design of FFXI's combat system.It still has tons of room for improvement,but even to this day,it has the MOST potential over any MMORPG.MOST every single rpg on the market is about running back and forth between quest npc's, i expect MANY others,couldn't care less about that design for gaming be it rpg or any game.
Until the games remove the questing purpose,then there won't be any real skill and even if there was,the design is still boring and flawed.What people/players REALLY care about is their player and what it can do in combat,we don't care about running from npc to npc,i wouldn't consider that a skill in anyone's book,Nor should i or anyone care about instance raiding.The ONLY reason to take part in that is of course to get that gear that ,you guessed it,makes your player better in combat,so it all points to gear and abilities and spells and how they are incorporated into the game.
Who does that better than FFXI?nobody else has the sub class system,except the wanna be ROM who did it VERY poorly.Nobody else has the renkai system with magic bursts,nobody else utilizesd team work more so than FFXI,so the ground work is there,it is just a matter of perfecting it or at least improving on it year after year.
I don't want to get into FFXI's cons ,such as forced grouping or whatever,i am talking merely what players DO care about ,and i already mentioned what that is.Then there is of course the icing on the cake,that can make an even greater game>>>>>crafting and gimmicks ,such as mounts,and mini games or side games,which of course FFXI has a lot of,more so than any other game,so again the ground work is there,developers can improve or expand on a good thing,or continue to make these mickey mouse questing games,and ONLY one road leads to better gaming,the other remains stagnant forever.
The stagnant design...aka WOW/EQ ect ect leads to one dimensional gaming ,no matter you side venture to attain gear in instances,the main frame of the game is to run back and forth from npc to npc doing quests,we have had enough of that poor design,it got old right about the start of EQ2 and WOW's release,it is just that for MANY new players to the genre,it still seemed fresh,,lol but it wasn't and still is not.You cannot take games like that and claim they have an END GAME,because that is NOT the actual game,that is the gimmick to keep subscribers around,the "GAME" was over when you hit max level.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Someone who knows how to cut a straight line? Someone who know what kind of wood to use to frame a wall?
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Knowing which button to smash and when to do it isn't a very complex skill, but it's still a skill. Not everyone has fast enough reflexes to see that priest casting a healing spell and kick him before the spell goes off.
I have been playing MMOs for a long time (Aceron's Call was my first) and I have never really been satisfied by the gameplay. Well, why play them you ask? To be honest, I play them mostly to relax and have have some nice casual multiplayer with friends. I also play them for story and roleplaying purposes. But this said I would really like an MMO to come out that is not for casual gamers but for hardcore gamers....
...This is really the crux of my issue with MMOs. They require absolutely no skill at all. I mean, there isnt a single open world MMO thats PvP or PvE doesn't boil down to who has better gear, higher levels, better traits, etc.
There is an exception: Guildwars. You hit max level fast (and can start with a max level PvP char if you want to, but then you would still have to unlock skills and gear) and the max level gear is very similar. Only problem here is that the world really isn't open.
I do agree that gear matters too much in most MMO and should be less important. But high end raiding do take skills even in regular MMOs and so does PvP.
Hopefully will GW2 give us an open worold that is more based on skill. There is of course already DFO and MO but those games feels kinda low budget to me, they have their point and found their niche but they doesn't really do it for me.
This is the lamest thread that I see sooooo much of that it's to the point of lunacy. As far as you mentioning Street fighter and all that... umm... the last I checked, to be good at fighting games in general, you have to play and practice. Without practice, you can't win against seasoned veterans.
Using a game I play and consider myself pretty good at: You can't log into Tekken 6 without having played ANY of the others, and expect to compete with the players that you'll find online. It just doesn't happen without practice. People who have been playing since Tekken 1 will win over people who have been playing for a week. That's just how it is and fighting games and FPS's reflect this.
As far as MMO's, I'm not a fan of grinding for gear, but I do understand that the people that put in the time to do so should have some kind of an upper hand in a genre like this. As far as I go... I do grind for gear, but if I choose to not grind for the top notch gear (which I don't) then I take what I do get and have fun with it how I can. This isn't a fighting game or shooter genre, and the time you invest in it has to reflect in a way that gear makes you more powerful (in most cases). Not to be able to log in day one, and kill a level 10 as being a level 1...... that wouldn't make any sense, just because you "click" faster or what have you, the other person already invested a solid 2 days work in his character, and you don't have that right to win over him. That's just the way MMO's are.
There is a larger amount of people playing call of duty and halo than wow . Research before you call that niche :P.
It's niche until these CoD & Halo players start playing MMO's. You should do some studies and surveys before assuming fps players want to level characters and go through the MMO grind.
(firstly, realize an MMO doesn't have to be an RPG. just cuz %99 are currently doesn't mean the dark ages will persist for another 12 years)
why do you think FPS players AREN'T playing current MMOs?
cuz there aren't any without char progression grinds. you're right about the part where they don't want that, but then fail to see thats the reason why this HUGE (opposite of niche) group of players shuns MMOs AS THEY CURRENTLY EXIST. and yet many of them are paying XBox live subscriptions fees, so its not this simplistic thinking that "nobody subs for a shooter".
nobody (well, not a very large group anyways) subs for a GRINDY, POORLY DONE shooter. whos RPG mechanics fights against the very essence of a proper PVP based shooter. and thats all thats been done so far.
hopefully APB is decent enough to kickstart the next stage of MMO evolution. the proliferation of RPGless, MMOs. (as options, don't get it twisted and start trying to argue with me saying they won't ever replace RPGs, cuz that is NOT what i am saying..... they will be further OPTIONS that are finally being explored and plundered)
I'd like them to branch out. I like FPS. I like RPG. And lots of the shooters with progression and XP are kind of edging that way even now. It used to be a volume issue. They just couldn't make areas big enough for the RPG world feel and small enough to FPS in.
But all of that is changing. Some of the battlefield areas are at least as big as AoC zones. Proper use of instances and you can keep the framerate down.
What someone needs is an IP that speaks to a lot of people AND is more suited to FPS play. I'm hoping 40k is going to really push us into that sphere ... but just that one video doesn't really say a lot.
I think it would be great to have games like that as additional options and competition. Then they couldn't just vomit out STO and expect people to eat it up like pie off Paris Hilton.
Comments
Or....MMOFPS, not to be confused with MMORPG. I think there are a lot of things being called mmoRPG these days....that really aren't. I agree with what you said. The MMO genre today has many many many sub-genres, which I think is WONDERFUL! However...I do think more attention needs to be paid to the genre labeling OF said games. I wouldn't much like it if a game was labeled action/adventure and I fired it up to find an RTS game there. I feel the same about today's vast variety of MMOs and MOGs.
As far as "adding skill" to MMORPGs or MMOs in general....that is TRULY a subjective thing. To my mother, who has watched me play EQ2, for example....she thinks I am RIDICULOUSLY skilled. And next to her...I am. She can't even figure out how to use a mouse and keyboard....and that's not a slam....she'd be the first to admit that computers are just not "her thing."
To someone who's only brush with gaming is "Farmville" (ugh...I don't even consider it a game, but that's beside the point)....if they were to watch ANY OF US play ANY MMO....they would think we were skilled. Now if you're comparing skills from MMO player TO MMO players, you would think that would change somewhat, but again...it really doesn't. There are too many variables within the genre itself and each feature in the game requires SOME sort of skill set. For instance....number crunchers that are "skilled mathematicians" are good at min/maxing. People with a keen sense of color and design are "skilled" at decorating homes in EQ2 and even building things in homes that are made out of various other parts to create something entirely new. THAT skill is called "creativity." Then you have the FPS style skills that generally work well in PvP features. See....if you're ONLY talking about game "combat skills" you're also leaving out assorted other features that require other, what could be considered "skill sets."
The funny thing is....some of the people that are screaming for "more skill requirements," think that the "skill" they are talking about is the ONLY "skill" that matters. Frankly, I think whether something IS a skill is, in part, subjective. But yes....I think games of all kinds take "skills" of varying degrees. When you start increasing the difficulty of a game in any skill set area, it does create more challenge in whatever area you're focused on. I like that idea. I enjoy new challenges. But we're still talking about GAMES here....it's not like they do, or even SHOULD, require an aeronautics degree to play them.. Although I'm sure if someone made a game that did.....there would be millions of people whining for a NERF.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I was careful to to put "rpg" anywhere in my op. So yes, naturally I am not wanting to step on the toes of the traditionalists. But, Cliff Blizynski (sp?) creater of Gears of War is on record as saying the future of FPS(TPS) are RPGs. With games like Mass Effect 2, Bioshock, etc I agree with him.
So while what I describe is not an "RPG" as classically defined It is not a mindless FPS either. It is a fantasy world where your "avatar" progresses much like in real life but you get to "role play" as someone more physically gifted that yourself. The only skill barrier in this type of game is the only skill barrier in most hardcore shooters or fighters.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
There is a larger amount of people playing call of duty and halo than wow
. Research before you call that niche :P.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
Dont forget PvE in WoW.
Most people cant even beat HC Lich King
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
This is actually a good way of pointing out a version of "twitch" play that isn't "Shooting". Reaction time, is something that people are good or bad at and something they can get better at.
That is skilled game play that could be in MMOs right now but is missing. (still twitch though sense it works off reaction time)
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
With the games becoming simpler and simpler, they are actually straying away from this - for the more casual player.
There are plenty of games that required more skill than they do now... without having to be "twitch" based.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
It's niche until these CoD & Halo players start playing MMO's. You should do some studies and surveys before assuming fps players want to level characters and go through the MMO grind.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Well there needs to be all types of games!! MMORPGS, MMOFPS, MMORTS, etc.
Some of them should be dumbed down and some should be intricate. Problem is most AAA mmos play follow the leader because they need too to create revinue. Its gonna take a company with huge juevos to try something like a true open world MMOFPS (not necisarily a shooter mind you).
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
Real life has better challenges and rewards than any video game can provide. If you need those kinds of feelings, I suggest you get your fill there.
There are levels in both COD and Halo. 50 in MW1 and two I think. Ask these same players if they would like a persistant battlefield in which there battles mattered and most will say HELL YES.
A true MMOFPS would not be the same beast as a MMORPG. It would have completely different positives and negatives and would probably not have much pve grinding at all.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
No. The main point of an RPG is that you can be Tiger Woods in the game. You can be a hero, a beautiful elf, the strongest warrior of the world...even if you suck in golf in real life, you can be the best in the game. Thats why so many people play MMORPGs....for fun and for getaway of real life limits. Don't implements the limits into the games.
I think Skill in MMOs do exist, maybe is not an active skill, but there is indeed skill in MMO, in shooter games you get Strategy Skills and Aim Skills, in MMOs you get Knowledge, Timing, Strategy.
Knowledge: You need to know what stat is better for you, what kind of gear is better for your class.
Timing: When to use "X" Skill or "Y" Skill, when to move behind a pillar to get LoS of your enemy.
Strategy: To comunicate with your team and tell them "Hey theres a Rogue HERE", "Get this Warrior off me", "Sheep the priest"
Numbers will usually bypass skill. Sure you can see a guy naked owning people who don't notice being owned.
The moment people decide to stay in group, it's all about what team got the best focus/ organisation. The OP said he wanted to get ganked by 3 people and roar in victory over their body. you see that happening? I mean rogue/ druid stun + 2 allies hitting on you. Your crippled, slowed to death, stunned, or simply outdamaged. I don't think anyone can survive a 3 man gank in wow.
What makes people unable to beat HC lich king is just the same that makes people unable to beat a lvl 80 with a lvl 1.
Even if the level 80 was afk for days, a lvl 1 could never kill him.
Skill is in the game. On the PvE side, macros and mods usually end up doing most of the work (chaining skills, warnings on what to do next). Crippled performances are at the menu if no use of tools that do the work better than human hands and brain.
For one, I doubt that the combined figures of 15 million players is all that acurate, but even if it is, are 15 million people playing online on a regular basis? Would they still be playing five years after release, and if so, would they be willing to pay 15 dollars a month?
What is a skilled carpenter?
.
Someone who knows how to cut a straight line? Someone who know what kind of wood to use to frame a wall?
.
Knowing which button to smash and when to do it isn't a very complex skill, but it's still a skill. Not everyone has fast enough reflexes to see that priest casting a healing spell and kick him before the spell goes off.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Whoa man, lol don't put twitch or more action oriented combat in a niche category. Those are the best selling games now days. RPG's have become the niche.
It isn't about being "Hardcore" it's about playing something more interactive thats a bit more fun that press button and wait.
Single players have evolved to where most are action oriented because thats where the money is. There is still room for slower paced games which Dragon Age proved but look at most of the top selling games out there. I wouldn't call it a niche genre by a long shot lol.
I miss when games did not display enemy cast bars...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
No i don't need outright skill to be much of a factor in a PVE genre,for FPS's then yes ,it should be about skill AND thinking or i should say ,outthinking your opponent.
I am pretty much satisfied with the general design of FFXI's combat system.It still has tons of room for improvement,but even to this day,it has the MOST potential over any MMORPG.MOST every single rpg on the market is about running back and forth between quest npc's, i expect MANY others,couldn't care less about that design for gaming be it rpg or any game.
Until the games remove the questing purpose,then there won't be any real skill and even if there was,the design is still boring and flawed.What people/players REALLY care about is their player and what it can do in combat,we don't care about running from npc to npc,i wouldn't consider that a skill in anyone's book,Nor should i or anyone care about instance raiding.The ONLY reason to take part in that is of course to get that gear that ,you guessed it,makes your player better in combat,so it all points to gear and abilities and spells and how they are incorporated into the game.
Who does that better than FFXI?nobody else has the sub class system,except the wanna be ROM who did it VERY poorly.Nobody else has the renkai system with magic bursts,nobody else utilizesd team work more so than FFXI,so the ground work is there,it is just a matter of perfecting it or at least improving on it year after year.
I don't want to get into FFXI's cons ,such as forced grouping or whatever,i am talking merely what players DO care about ,and i already mentioned what that is.Then there is of course the icing on the cake,that can make an even greater game>>>>>crafting and gimmicks ,such as mounts,and mini games or side games,which of course FFXI has a lot of,more so than any other game,so again the ground work is there,developers can improve or expand on a good thing,or continue to make these mickey mouse questing games,and ONLY one road leads to better gaming,the other remains stagnant forever.
The stagnant design...aka WOW/EQ ect ect leads to one dimensional gaming ,no matter you side venture to attain gear in instances,the main frame of the game is to run back and forth from npc to npc doing quests,we have had enough of that poor design,it got old right about the start of EQ2 and WOW's release,it is just that for MANY new players to the genre,it still seemed fresh,,lol but it wasn't and still is not.You cannot take games like that and claim they have an END GAME,because that is NOT the actual game,that is the gimmick to keep subscribers around,the "GAME" was over when you hit max level.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
All depends on if your gcd is up
There is an exception: Guildwars. You hit max level fast (and can start with a max level PvP char if you want to, but then you would still have to unlock skills and gear) and the max level gear is very similar. Only problem here is that the world really isn't open.
I do agree that gear matters too much in most MMO and should be less important. But high end raiding do take skills even in regular MMOs and so does PvP.
Hopefully will GW2 give us an open worold that is more based on skill. There is of course already DFO and MO but those games feels kinda low budget to me, they have their point and found their niche but they doesn't really do it for me.
This is the lamest thread that I see sooooo much of that it's to the point of lunacy. As far as you mentioning Street fighter and all that... umm... the last I checked, to be good at fighting games in general, you have to play and practice. Without practice, you can't win against seasoned veterans.
Using a game I play and consider myself pretty good at: You can't log into Tekken 6 without having played ANY of the others, and expect to compete with the players that you'll find online. It just doesn't happen without practice. People who have been playing since Tekken 1 will win over people who have been playing for a week. That's just how it is and fighting games and FPS's reflect this.
As far as MMO's, I'm not a fan of grinding for gear, but I do understand that the people that put in the time to do so should have some kind of an upper hand in a genre like this. As far as I go... I do grind for gear, but if I choose to not grind for the top notch gear (which I don't) then I take what I do get and have fun with it how I can. This isn't a fighting game or shooter genre, and the time you invest in it has to reflect in a way that gear makes you more powerful (in most cases). Not to be able to log in day one, and kill a level 10 as being a level 1...... that wouldn't make any sense, just because you "click" faster or what have you, the other person already invested a solid 2 days work in his character, and you don't have that right to win over him. That's just the way MMO's are.
Chicks dig guys with leet video gaming skills.
All I am going to say is TERA.
Rest of you noobs go home.
(firstly, realize an MMO doesn't have to be an RPG. just cuz %99 are currently doesn't mean the dark ages will persist for another 12 years)
why do you think FPS players AREN'T playing current MMOs?
cuz there aren't any without char progression grinds. you're right about the part where they don't want that, but then fail to see thats the reason why this HUGE (opposite of niche) group of players shuns MMOs AS THEY CURRENTLY EXIST. and yet many of them are paying XBox live subscriptions fees, so its not this simplistic thinking that "nobody subs for a shooter".
nobody (well, not a very large group anyways) subs for a GRINDY, POORLY DONE shooter. whos RPG mechanics fights against the very essence of a proper PVP based shooter. and thats all thats been done so far.
hopefully APB is decent enough to kickstart the next stage of MMO evolution. the proliferation of RPGless, MMOs. (as options, don't get it twisted and start trying to argue with me saying they won't ever replace RPGs, cuz that is NOT what i am saying..... they will be further OPTIONS that are finally being explored and plundered)
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Corpus Callosum
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I'd like them to branch out. I like FPS. I like RPG. And lots of the shooters with progression and XP are kind of edging that way even now. It used to be a volume issue. They just couldn't make areas big enough for the RPG world feel and small enough to FPS in.
But all of that is changing. Some of the battlefield areas are at least as big as AoC zones. Proper use of instances and you can keep the framerate down.
What someone needs is an IP that speaks to a lot of people AND is more suited to FPS play. I'm hoping 40k is going to really push us into that sphere ... but just that one video doesn't really say a lot.
I think it would be great to have games like that as additional options and competition. Then they couldn't just vomit out STO and expect people to eat it up like pie off Paris Hilton.