1) A lot of MMO's require some type of skill. PVP in certains MMORPG's will show you that. Sure, the gimp will normally lose and the guy with better equipment will probably win, but skill does have a say. Even in dungeons, some games you can get away with just blasting, but most you will require some type of tactic.
2) We should differentiate between MMO's and MMORPG's. Yes, I want to be challenged in both, but I play RPGs because I prefer this play-style to twitchy FPSs or side-scrollers. If I wanted to play a game which was entirely based on my ability to move and click my mouse, I'd move over to one of those genre's (which these days are available in MMO formats).
3) Where I do agree with you, and what I don't like is the WOW-lead emphasis of gear over skill (or any other considerations for that matter).
every1 noez dat my kinda gamez iz better dan ur gamez cuz it take mad skillz to play MY kinda gamez
UR game iz jus 4 R Tardz and ijits
2 B a real game take shootemup skillz
This is an extremely juvenile assumption and really shows that you have weak debating skills. Way to come troll my thread.
I never once said I was leet or called anyone noobs. I have repeatedely said I enjoy MMORPGs for what they are but I want a game that is more gear toward skilled gamers. I have repeated adnosium what I think skilled gamers are and I stand by that.
That you come in here and post that drivel makes me believe you just want to feel important and get laughs from other people that are afraid of change.
How do you figure, exactly, that I'm "trolling" your thread? I made a more "serious" post in it previously. I made THIS one to make a point using sarcasm. I'm sorry if that flies over your head somehow (or even if it's just irritating), but I thought it was funny. I know...maybe I don't have a great sense of humor. If you consider it to be juvenile, that's fine. I find the thread topic itself to be rather silly (just my opinion), considering we're talking about GAMES here and not creating a cure for cancer, or something that really matters and takes ACTUAL REAL SKILL.
Oh sure, I suppose we could debate FOREVER on what "skills" gaming takes, but when I use the word "skill" in the same paragraph as the words "video game," I am adult enough to realize that we're not talking about SKILLS on the level that that word is generally attributed to.....such as architectural design, being a brain surgeon, or other things that TRULY take skill. I think some gamers attribute far too much importance, and thereby arrogance, to their hobby of choice.
Also....where on earth did you get the idea that my post you quoted HERE....was directed at YOU? That was my take, in a comical sense, on the entirety of the thread "flavor," and had nothing to do with YOU personally.
Like I said before....to my mother, who is 67 years old and cannot operate a mouse and keyboard....I am "skilled." But what the hell kind of measuring stick is THAT? Your "skills" in gaming are in direct proportion to who/what you are measuring them against. So what is the system of measurement here? How exactly do you intend to measure "skills" in gaming? It's entirely subjective, and therefore cannot truly be measured.
Of course...this is all just my opinion (as if anyone should need to SAY that on a web forum).
"Skill" is a word that has a monkey with a parasol quality to it when applied to videogames. I suppose in the strictest sense it applies to some aspects of gameplay, in the same way that some people are more skilled at say, flossing their gums than others.
But assuming it applies, my question is what skills do you want to reward? For example, it used to be that finding your way around in these worlds was a skill. Some people read and make maps well, others less so. Some people could read quest dialogue and figure out where they needed to go, others not so much. Some could read grid coordinates and other folks never did figure that out. All that went right into the dust bin with in game maps, gps, exclamation marks, etc. So I'm wondering, why is that skill rubbish and being able to type fast is important?
Mmos present a lot of opportunities for players to showcase some type of ability or other, but most of it has been paved over by a big truck marked ez-mode. Eye/hand coordination seems to be the last man standing with almost everything else automated or removed, but I don't see that as an ability more significant than the ones we no longer reward.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
"Skill" is a word that has a monkey with a parasol quality to it when applied to videogames. I suppose in the strictest sense it applies to some aspects of gameplay, in the same way that some people are more skilled at say, flossing their gums than others.
But assuming it applies, my question is what skills do you want to reward? For example, it used to be that finding your way around in these worlds was a skill. Some people read and make maps well, others less so. Some people could read quest dialogue and figure out where they needed to go, others not so much. Some could read grid coordinates and other folks never did figure that out. All that went right into the dust bin with in game maps, gps, exclamation marks, etc. So I'm wondering, why is that skill rubbish and being able to type fast is important?
Mmos present a lot of opportunities for players to showcase some type of ability or other, but most of it has been paved over by a big truck marked ez-mode. Eye/hand coordination seems to be the last man standing with almost everything else automated or removed, but I don't see that as an ability more significant than the ones we no longer reward.
You are blithely dismissing the substance of the OP with this and it almost made me overlook the genuine contribution you made with your second and third paragraphs. Let's become less jaded by Derrida and Post-Modernism and agree that there is a thing called objectivity and, however flexible definitions may become, we must agree for the sake of argument that a given term has a particular definition. Granted, the OP didn't explicitly state what 'skill' means to them and that is a problem, but it seems to me that we actually can imply a defition of the term 'skill' from the post.
As you've very aptly stated in your second paragraph, there are all sorts of skills that factor into a MMORPG and there are some that are conected to gameplay mechanics and some that are less so. For example, a skill in Guild Wars 2 will be deciphering the readable languages that the developers have put into play, one of which is New Krytan. This is a legitimate skill but not the sort that OP was very obviously driving at.
You're also correct about your assessment of E-Z mode steamrolling what skils mean and can do, in my mind by the Blizzardozer. That said, what you are missing is the thrust of the argument in the OP: skill in combat needs to make a big comeback. It seems that many people are in agreement with this, even if they are jaded by what you've rightly pointed out in your third paragraph and disagree on what sort of skills should really be considered as 'skill.'
You seem smart, so don't dismiss things like this out of hand. Read more carefully. I'm sure you would have something better to contribute like what sort of combat skills best fit what sort of game or something of that nature.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain. (2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
"Skill" is a word that has a monkey with a parasol quality to it when applied to videogames. I suppose in the strictest sense it applies to some aspects of gameplay, in the same way that some people are more skilled at say, flossing their gums than others.
But assuming it applies, my question is what skills do you want to reward? For example, it used to be that finding your way around in these worlds was a skill. Some people read and make maps well, others less so. Some people could read quest dialogue and figure out where they needed to go, others not so much. Some could read grid coordinates and other folks never did figure that out. All that went right into the dust bin with in game maps, gps, exclamation marks, etc. So I'm wondering, why is that skill rubbish and being able to type fast is important?
Mmos present a lot of opportunities for players to showcase some type of ability or other, but most of it has been paved over by a big truck marked ez-mode. Eye/hand coordination seems to be the last man standing with almost everything else automated or removed, but I don't see that as an ability more significant than the ones we no longer reward.
You are blithely dismissing the substance of the OP with this and it almost made me overlook the genuine contribution you made with your second and third paragraphs. Let's become less jaded by Derrida and Post-Modernism and agree that there is a thing called objectivity and, however flexible definitions may become, we must agree for the sake of argument that a given term has a particular definition. Granted, the OP didn't explicitly state what 'skill' means to them and that is a problem, but it seems to me that we actually can imply a defition of the term 'skill' from the post.
As you've very aptly stated in your second paragraph, there are all sorts of skills that factor into a MMORPG and there are some that are conected to gameplay mechanics and some that are less so. For example, a skill in Guild Wars 2 will be deciphering the readable languages that the developers have put into play, one of which is New Krytan. This is a legitimate skill but not the sort that OP was very obviously driving at.
You're also correct about your assessment of E-Z mode steamrolling what skils mean and can do, in my mind by the Blizzardozer. That said, what you are missing is the thrust of the argument in the OP: skill in combat needs to make a big comeback. It seems that many people are in agreement with this, even if they are jaded by what you've rightly pointed out in your third paragraph and disagree on what sort of skills should really be considered as 'skill.'
You seem smart, so don't dismiss things like this out of hand. Read more carefully. I'm sure you would have something better to contribute like what sort of combat skills best fit what sort of game or something of that nature.
I feel a certain amount of dismissing is warranted when someone implies that twitch play is the only real demonstration of player skill in a videogame. There is more than one kind of challenge in an mmo and playing Donkey Kong in Mirkwood *there's a barrel jump* isn't one of the more significant ones, in my opinion. I also think that if "skill" had been used in a less self-aggrandizing way in the OP I may not have been as critical. But since it was, I'm comfortable poking a bit of fun at it.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I was writing a long post. Then I realized, death. Death has been and will be for many many games, a measure of skill. How may times did you die? How many times did you almost die? Did you complete the level or beat the boss on the edge of life the whole time? Did you kill the other guy more times then he killed you?
but really, nothing beats a good boss battle or a hard ass level in a FUN video game. If you die alot it's not so bad because once you finally kill the boss, or beat the level, it's always gratifying.
P.S. I don't want to spend an hour fighting a boss and then win, without ever dying once. That is ridiculouso. And hard levels should have some sort of decent checkpoint system/save option.
p.s.s Unless you want to play platform style, old school hard, when it was really really really hard as hell to beat any game really. Just measure how that old game "hardness" is translated into new games, and you'll see whether a new game is challenging or not, and if it requires skill.
If MMOs didn't require skill, people wouldn't whine so much about PuGs in PvE and PvP.
This leads me to my next question in regards to "skills." Is common sense considered a skill? Because 9/10 times my personal issue with PuGs can usually be attributed to an over all lack of common sense. Simple things like....GTFO of the AoE and use some common sense in when to use your OWN AoEs...stuff like that. Or let's see....which group members get priority on heals? Common sense tells me I need to keep up the tank first, MYSELF (if I'm healing....and it's honestly amazing how many times I've heard a healer say, "Oh gosh...I forgot to heal myself") and then the primary dps. I have literally seen healers that didn't understand that the tank needs to be their primary focus, particularly in raids when that is even their ASSIGNED heal. Are those things "skills" or just plain common horse sense?
And then you have PvP. Common sense goes a long way here too, even though it's more interactive, and definitely changes MUCH more from situation to situation and requires thinking on your "feet," so to speak. I've watched dps try like hell to take out the melee that is pounding their teammate, when the healer that is struggling to keep him up....is standing not far behind him in plain sight. O.o I think we've ALL seen things that make you LITERALLY smack your forehead with your palm in AWE of the lack of common sense. But are those things...."skills?"
And a lot of the people that I have personally HEARD bemoan the fact that games don't require more "skill" ...are some of those very aggressive dps types that have that Superman complex (we've all known one or two of those) that run into situations gun blazing, because they KNOW they are awesome enough to SOLO this encounter, and that the group they have with them are just a bunch of scrubs they're "taking along for the ride," only to see that SAME PERSON make some of the most basic errors of judgment in tactics and strategy that I've ever witnessed.
I still think...it's all pretty subjective in an MMO setting that uses/requires team effort. Even in FPS games...I'm still a bit reticent to use the word "skill" to describe lightning reflexes, strategizing, and common sense. Hell just being a mother of three children requires those things and I don't consider myself somehow particularly "skilled" because of that......
I guess for me, it's somewhat an argument over semantics. Some choose to call it "skills." I guess I just prefer to call it common sense. Maybe they're the same thing in the end. I don't know.
Originally posted by Amathe
I feel a certain amount of dismissing is warranted when someone implies that twitch play is the only real demonstration of player skill in a videogame. There is more than one kind of challenge in an mmo and playing Donkey Kong in Mirkwood *there's a barrel jump* isn't one of the more significant ones, in my opinion. I also think that if "skill" had been used in a less self-aggrandizing way in the OP I may not have been as critical. But since it was, I'm comfortable poking a bit of fun at it.
Yes. I think that is part of my issue with it as well.
"Skill" is a word that has a monkey with a parasol quality to it when applied to videogames. I suppose in the strictest sense it applies to some aspects of gameplay, in the same way that some people are more skilled at say, flossing their gums than others.
But assuming it applies, my question is what skills do you want to reward? For example, it used to be that finding your way around in these worlds was a skill. Some people read and make maps well, others less so. Some people could read quest dialogue and figure out where they needed to go, others not so much. Some could read grid coordinates and other folks never did figure that out. All that went right into the dust bin with in game maps, gps, exclamation marks, etc. So I'm wondering, why is that skill rubbish and being able to type fast is important?
Mmos present a lot of opportunities for players to showcase some type of ability or other, but most of it has been paved over by a big truck marked ez-mode. Eye/hand coordination seems to be the last man standing with almost everything else automated or removed, but I don't see that as an ability more significant than the ones we no longer reward.
You are blithely dismissing the substance of the OP with this and it almost made me overlook the genuine contribution you made with your second and third paragraphs. Let's become less jaded by Derrida and Post-Modernism and agree that there is a thing called objectivity and, however flexible definitions may become, we must agree for the sake of argument that a given term has a particular definition. Granted, the OP didn't explicitly state what 'skill' means to them and that is a problem, but it seems to me that we actually can imply a defition of the term 'skill' from the post.
As you've very aptly stated in your second paragraph, there are all sorts of skills that factor into a MMORPG and there are some that are conected to gameplay mechanics and some that are less so. For example, a skill in Guild Wars 2 will be deciphering the readable languages that the developers have put into play, one of which is New Krytan. This is a legitimate skill but not the sort that OP was very obviously driving at.
You're also correct about your assessment of E-Z mode steamrolling what skils mean and can do, in my mind by the Blizzardozer. That said, what you are missing is the thrust of the argument in the OP: skill in combat needs to make a big comeback. It seems that many people are in agreement with this, even if they are jaded by what you've rightly pointed out in your third paragraph and disagree on what sort of skills should really be considered as 'skill.'
You seem smart, so don't dismiss things like this out of hand. Read more carefully. I'm sure you would have something better to contribute like what sort of combat skills best fit what sort of game or something of that nature.
I feel a certain amount of dismissing is warranted when someone implies that twitch play is the only real demonstration of player skill in a videogame. There is more than one kind of challenge in an mmo and playing Donkey Kong in Mirkwood *there's a barrel jump* isn't one of the more significant ones, in my opinion. I also think that if "skill" had been used in a less self-aggrandizing way in the OP I may not have been as critical. But since it was, I'm comfortable poking a bit of fun at it.
Hmmm, I think that I can buy this. While I still think that you should have been more charitable I think I can see your point in the tone that came across in the OP. Coming from a university background of Philosophy and Theology I'm forced to stretch the principle of charity to the point of breaking far too often in Academia and, you're right and I've said it myself, part of the content of our argument is how we form it.
"Well played, Clerks, well played."
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain. (2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
Savage is fairly overrated. Natural Selection soundly womps it, both in terms of how important skill is and in game depth. And if we're purely obsessing over the importance of player skill, Tribes 1 beats them both.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think the hysteria over the work "skill" here is pretty hysterical ... and pathetic. It's fairly obvious (to me) that all the OP was looking for was to see how many people preferred games that include dice-roll mechanics versus games that do not.
This leads me to my next question in regards to "skills." Is common sense considered a skill?
And a lot of the people that I have personally HEARD bemoan the fact that games don't require more "skill" ...are some of those very aggressive dps types that have that Superman complex (we've all known one or two of those) that run into situations gun blazing, because they KNOW they are awesome enough to SOLO this encounter, and that the group they have with them are just a bunch of scrubs they're "taking along for the ride," only to see that SAME PERSON make some of the most basic errors of judgment in tactics and strategy that I've ever witnessed.
I still think...it's all pretty subjective in an MMO setting that uses/requires team effort. Even in FPS games...I'm still a bit reticent to use the word "skill" to describe lightning reflexes, strategizing, and common sense. Hell just being a mother of three children requires those things and I don't consider myself somehow particularly "skilled" because of that......
Well skill is measure of decision-making quality.
Is common sense skill? Sure, it's part of it. The term "common sense" describes a plethora of decisions to be made where the correct decision is considered obvious.
Skill is only subjective insofar as we use the term in a general way. Skill is a granular, objective measurement of decision-making quality, and we simply use the binary terms "skilled" or "unskilled" to conveniently and rapidly describe a general location along that granular scale (as we do in much of language.)
As for the overgeared player? Every party's goal is "survive and defeat the encounter as fast as possible." If the party is normally geared, standing in the fire is probably a very bad decision which compromises the party's ability to survive the encounter. But as the party's gear improves, survival is less of a concern and standing in the fire may actually be the fastest way to beat the boss -- the very best decision! (And this example of standing in the fire actually applies to some WOW fights where groups become overgeared.)
So yeah, if the overgeared player's bad decisions cause wipes then they're terrible decisions and he's bad. But it's important not to criticize the most basic errors of judgement (like standing in the fire) if they aren't actually bad decisions. The value of a given decision changes, based on the current conditions and goals of gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
every1 noez dat my kinda gamez iz better dan ur gamez cuz it take mad skillz to play MY kinda gamez
UR game iz jus 4 R Tardz and ijits
2 B a real game take shootemup skillz
This is an extremely juvenile assumption and really shows that you have weak debating skills. Way to come troll my thread.
I never once said I was leet or called anyone noobs. I have repeatedely said I enjoy MMORPGs for what they are but I want a game that is more gear toward skilled gamers. I have repeated adnosium what I think skilled gamers are and I stand by that.
That you come in here and post that drivel makes me believe you just want to feel important and get laughs from other people that are afraid of change.
How do you figure, exactly, that I'm "trolling" your thread? I made a more "serious" post in it previously. I made THIS one to make a point using sarcasm. I'm sorry if that flies over your head somehow (or even if it's just irritating), but I thought it was funny. I know...maybe I don't have a great sense of humor. If you consider it to be juvenile, that's fine. I find the thread topic itself to be rather silly (just my opinion), considering we're talking about GAMES here and not creating a cure for cancer, or something that really matters and takes ACTUAL REAL SKILL.
Oh sure, I suppose we could debate FOREVER on what "skills" gaming takes, but when I use the word "skill" in the same paragraph as the words "video game," I am adult enough to realize that we're not talking about SKILLS on the level that that word is generally attributed to.....such as architectural design, being a brain surgeon, or other things that TRULY take skill. I think some gamers attribute far too much importance, and thereby arrogance, to their hobby of choice.
Also....where on earth did you get the idea that my post you quoted HERE....was directed at YOU? That was my take, in a comical sense, on the entirety of the thread "flavor," and had nothing to do with YOU personally.
Like I said before....to my mother, who is 67 years old and cannot operate a mouse and keyboard....I am "skilled." But what the hell kind of measuring stick is THAT? Your "skills" in gaming are in direct proportion to who/what you are measuring them against. So what is the system of measurement here? How exactly do you intend to measure "skills" in gaming? It's entirely subjective, and therefore cannot truly be measured.
Of course...this is all just my opinion (as if anyone should need to SAY that on a web forum).
I think the hysteria over the work "skill" here is pretty hysterical ... and pathetic. It's fairly obvious (to me) that all the OP was looking for was to see how many people preferred games that include dice-roll mechanics versus games that do not.
Funny...what I got from the OP was that "twitch gaming" is something he personally considers a "skill," while any other form of gaming he considers to be a bit beneath him, although he'll settle to play those games, since there's really nothing in the way of an MMO that challenges his elite "twitch" gaming skills. My read on what he said was that, essentially, he values his twitch reflexes in a game above all the other things that factor into playing games. Not all of those things are based on physical speed of reflex, but they are still important factors in whether you will "succeed" at achieving your desired game "goals." Devaluing things like common sense, strategic and tactical planning, good communication, being socially adept, and assorted other things that ALSO factor into playing an MMO, just came across as elitism when I read it.
That condescending tone laced into the post...probably appeared rather insulting (and kind of arrogant) to more than a few people. To me, it was not only that, but sort of comical, since I attribute about as much importance to gaming "skills" as I do to the learned ability to deftly operate a keyboard and mouse in unison. Neither one has any earth shattering degree of importance, and either can be learned by anyone with an average IQ, the desire TO learn, and the time to practice. The more practice, the more quality performance (as with ANYTHING in life, even the most basic things)....it's really as simple as that....if all other quotients are equal, meaning IQ, and desire are on equal level from player to player...then the only other determining factor is amount ot time one practices/plays.
The inclusion of dice roll mechanics wasn't mentioned, so no...I didn't make that correlation. But I'm sure a LOT of people would love a game that didn't depend entirely on dice roll mechanics behind the scenes. That would definitely raise the challenge level and I'm sure would be a welcome arrival or "innovation" at this point in MMO history. I'm not sure anyone at all was disagreeing with that, although...I didn't see him ever actually SAY that. I suppose I might have missed it somewhere else in the thread. But if that is the point that was being made....wow sure....I totally dig that idea.
I have been advocating for awhile now to the 'skill' community of players that the answer to this is a game that is basically the same as an FPS server but in a world that is extreemly large. I often get boo's on such an idea but not only do I think its a great idea I think its EXACTLY what the skill community is asking for. It could be a fantasy based, very large world with no skill numbers at all.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I have been advocating for awhile now to the 'skill' community of players that the answer to this is a game that is basically the same as an FPS server but in a world that is extreemly large. I often get boo's on such an idea but not only do I think its a great idea I think its EXACTLY what the skill community is asking for. It could be a fantasy based, very large world with no skill numbers at all.
But then the "skilled" would actually have to rely on their "skill" not gear and statistics to make up the difference.
In MMO PvP, wolves don't want other wolves to fight with, they want sheep to slaughter.
I have been advocating for awhile now to the 'skill' community of players that the answer to this is a game that is basically the same as an FPS server but in a world that is extreemly large. I often get boo's on such an idea but not only do I think its a great idea I think its EXACTLY what the skill community is asking for. It could be a fantasy based, very large world with no skill numbers at all.
But then the "skilled" would actually have to rely on their "skill" not gear and statistics to make up the difference.
In MMO PvP, wolves don't want other wolves to fight with, they want sheep to slaughter.
Here lies in the possible problem with pvp in general. People blame the game if they loss saying that the system has a to wide skill spread or the class they choose is unfairly balance and once they are given basically a street fighter version of an MMO with only 1:1, exact same skil, and a big light that says 'go!' then they will no longer play.
That is my assumption, however lately I have been trying to be more open minded and offere suggestions to that community that I think would at least allow the two different types of gamers to leave each other alone
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Such games already exist.. i think you either haven't looked hard enough or they consist of such skill levels that you'd just quit because for the lack of skill on your behest
The main problem within mmos is that the devs don't give full physical control over the 4 main fundamentals:
Striking (offense)
Grappling (offense)
Evasion (defense)
Deflection (defense)
Striking and grappling we have plenty of control over, but evasion and deflection we have no physical control over. As soon as we're able to physically control when to evade or deflect any type of attack, we will never see balance.
We need complete control over these fundamentals of combat and when we finally actually have them, it won't matter how strong a class is or what level you are. I mean, you could be going against a class that could one shot you easily, but so long as you have the direct physical control to completely evade or deflect the death blow, balancing classes and abilities will no longer matter.
I have been advocating for awhile now to the 'skill' community of players that the answer to this is a game that is basically the same as an FPS server but in a world that is extreemly large. I often get boo's on such an idea but not only do I think its a great idea I think its EXACTLY what the skill community is asking for. It could be a fantasy based, very large world with no skill numbers at all.
But then the "skilled" would actually have to rely on their "skill" not gear and statistics to make up the difference.
In MMO PvP, wolves don't want other wolves to fight with, they want sheep to slaughter.
Here lies in the possible problem with pvp in general. People blame the game if they loss saying that the system has a to wide skill spread or the class they choose is unfairly balance and once they are given basically a street fighter version of an MMO with only 1:1, exact same skil, and a big light that says 'go!' then they will no longer play.
That is my assumption, however lately I have been trying to be more open minded and offere suggestions to that community that I think would at least allow the two different types of gamers to leave each other alone
problem is no one like to lose, if you put skill in a game you will get people cheating in the same way in fps aimbots, orther games infinite hp or god mode, and if ose they will also say its was a cheat or lag, so in the end nothing really will change
I don't believe that 'skill in gaming' and 'twitch gaming' are necessarily the same thing.
Sure, making combat require fast complicated key and mouse movements is an obvious way to add skill, but its not the only way. Greatly increasing the complexity of equipment and combat in general is certainly another choice. EVE and DAOC were two games that can serve as partial examples.
Considering a simple case in EVE of a one on one fight (not the easiest to find, but bear with me), the combination of your skills, your ships capabilities, the type ammunition you are using, the types of guns you choose, your velocity vector in relation to your opponent, your range, the defense equipped on both ships, and the order which you flip on and off various modules will all work together in determining who wins.
Yes, some of these aspects (controlling direction, velocity, and module activation/deactivation) do require an element of coordination but a clever or knowledgeable player will beat a 'quick reflex' player' every time in a 'fair fight'.
You DO NOT need to turn a game into a 'twitch game' or FPS to increase the effect of skillful play.
I don't believe that 'skill in gaming' and 'twitch gaming' are necessarily the same thing.
Sure, making combat require fast complicated key and mouse movements is an obvious way to add skill, but its not the only way. Greatly increasing the complexity of equipment and combat in general is certainly another choice. EVE and DAOC were two games that can serve as partial examples.
Considering a simple case in EVE of a one on one fight (not the easiest to find, but bear with me), the combination of your skills, your ships capabilities, the type ammunition you are using, the types of guns you choose, your velocity vector in relation to your opponent, your range, the defense equipped on both ships, and the order which you flip on and off various modules will all work together in determining who wins.
Yes, some of these aspects (controlling direction, velocity, and module activation/deactivation) do require an element of coordination but a clever or knowledgeable player will beat a 'quick reflex' player' every time in a 'fair fight'.
You DO NOT need to turn a game into a 'twitch game' or FPS to increase the effect of skillful play.
The issue with most of what you've mentioned is that it does not change during combat. Your ships capabilities and the equipment you have tends to be the biggest factor in the outcome of the battle. Player's want to be able to dynamically alter the outcome of the battle by taking action to do it, and that doesn't mean running, they want to be able to dodge damaging hits. They want to feel like they're doing it rather than pressing a button and watching their ingame character do all the work. You're right that you don't need FPS style combat to accomplish it, but to do it effectively, you're going to be bringing in some elements from FPS style games. Basically I think players who advocate skill in MMORPGs simply want more factors that can be changed during combat that can alter the flow of it.
I don't believe that 'skill in gaming' and 'twitch gaming' are necessarily the same thing.
Sure, making combat require fast complicated key and mouse movements is an obvious way to add skill, but its not the only way. Greatly increasing the complexity of equipment and combat in general is certainly another choice. EVE and DAOC were two games that can serve as partial examples.
Considering a simple case in EVE of a one on one fight (not the easiest to find, but bear with me), the combination of your skills, your ships capabilities, the type ammunition you are using, the types of guns you choose, your velocity vector in relation to your opponent, your range, the defense equipped on both ships, and the order which you flip on and off various modules will all work together in determining who wins.
Yes, some of these aspects (controlling direction, velocity, and module activation/deactivation) do require an element of coordination but a clever or knowledgeable player will beat a 'quick reflex' player' every time in a 'fair fight'.
You DO NOT need to turn a game into a 'twitch game' or FPS to increase the effect of skillful play.
The issue with most of what you've mentioned is that it does not change during combat. Your ships capabilities and the equipment you have tends to be the biggest factor in the outcome of the battle. Player's want to be able to dynamically alter the outcome of the battle by taking action to do it, and that doesn't mean running, they want to be able to dodge damaging hits. They want to feel like they're doing it rather than pressing a button and watching their ingame character do all the work. You're right that you don't need FPS style combat to accomplish it, but to do it effectively, you're going to be bringing in some elements from FPS style games. Basically I think players who advocate skill in MMORPGs simply want more factors that can be changed during combat that can alter the flow of it.
Agreed, many of the factors that settle an EVE battle are settled before the shooting starts. A few points to consider to move beyond the example of EVE and to general MMO play:
1) There is still an awful lot of knowledge and experience that can go into bringing the right tools to a fight that can add to the feeling that knowledge and experience actually matters.
2) Adding complexity to mechanics and gear allows intelligent non-standard tactics that are obviously missing from most MMOs today.
3) When equipment and tactics can result in extreme damage-mitigation, you force opponents to adjust their game. It doesn't have to be twitch gaming to be complicated and interesting.
Your last sentence captures the philosophy but I feel is misconstrued to mean that ONLY twitch-type changes can be envisioned. I will argue that battle can unfold at a manageable pace and still have room for tactical and strategic play.
Savage 2 is an absolutely amazing game. Unfortunately, there was never more than a handful of people playing it when I discovered it, and the competitive community in that game appeared all but dead. As a competitive gamer, the small community was a major turnoff.
Regarding "skill" in MMOs generally, instead of worrying about whether to define "skill" in terms of twitch, reflexes, strategy, or any other combination of talents that enable one player to be better than another, it's much more useful to consider what gameplay elements contribute to "skill gap." The skill gap is what distinguishes different tiers of players. It can be any combination of gameplay elements (twitch, strategy, tactics, or otherwise) that enable players to set themselves apart. On one extreme, you have a game with zero skill gap: I roll the dice, you roll the dice, and the person with the higher number wins. On the other extreme, you have games with significant skill gaps, which may have nothing to do with twitch: chess, for example. (I can play Bobby Fisher 1000 times, and I guarantee that I will never beat him.)
MMOs traditionally have narrower skill gaps than FPS games, although that is not universally true. I expect the reason for that boils down to simple economics: In an MMO, which traditionally features some sort of shared open game world, the greater the skill gap, the more likely you are to alienate your average or casual gamer (who pays the bills). Why? Because with a large skill gap, casual gamers can never possibly hope to compete with top tier gamers (like me versus Bobby Fisher). Throw them all into the same game world, and your casual gamers get pissed. (If I were a third grader playing in an amateur chess tournament, I'd be pretty pissed if Bobby crashed the party repeatedly.)
In COD, CSS, even WoW arenas, you have ways of distinguishing talent. Top COD/CSS teams have special invite IRC channels for the top-tier professional leagues, where they find scrims. There are separate IRC channels for the lower level competitive leagues, and if you are just a pubber, you can join a random nub server, and the odds that you will stumble across a pro crashing the party is relatively low. (And if you do, you can just leave and join a new server.) WoW has a ratings system to distinguish different tiers of talent, so that you can (hopefully) find PvP games that suit your individual playing abilities.
There are plenty of MMOs that are trying to add "skill" in the sense that the games are action-based, and not tab-targeting based (e.g., Global Agenda, Age of Conan, Tera, etc.), but even in these games (some aim required), the ultimate skill gap is still relatively low. (In Age of Conan, you could avoid aim-based classes by playing ranged, not melee, classes; in Global Agenda, the amount of twitch required was quite low, despite being aim-based.) It seems unlikely that there will be an MMO that creates the sort of skill gap that would enable a single skilled player to single-handedly rampage large groups based on skill alone, however so defined (something that is possible in Savage 2 by the way -- wonder why nobody plays that game...).
So, if you define "skill" as twitch, there are games that are adding that element, but what you're really concerned about ultimately is skill gap, something which is mutually inconsistent with a large, open-world game that seeks to cater to both casual and hardcore players alike. If you won't be satisfied until you see that game, you won't be satisfied for a long, long time.
Comments
Couple things.
1) A lot of MMO's require some type of skill. PVP in certains MMORPG's will show you that. Sure, the gimp will normally lose and the guy with better equipment will probably win, but skill does have a say. Even in dungeons, some games you can get away with just blasting, but most you will require some type of tactic.
2) We should differentiate between MMO's and MMORPG's. Yes, I want to be challenged in both, but I play RPGs because I prefer this play-style to twitchy FPSs or side-scrollers. If I wanted to play a game which was entirely based on my ability to move and click my mouse, I'd move over to one of those genre's (which these days are available in MMO formats).
3) Where I do agree with you, and what I don't like is the WOW-lead emphasis of gear over skill (or any other considerations for that matter).
How do you figure, exactly, that I'm "trolling" your thread? I made a more "serious" post in it previously. I made THIS one to make a point using sarcasm. I'm sorry if that flies over your head somehow (or even if it's just irritating), but I thought it was funny. I know...maybe I don't have a great sense of humor. If you consider it to be juvenile, that's fine. I find the thread topic itself to be rather silly (just my opinion), considering we're talking about GAMES here and not creating a cure for cancer, or something that really matters and takes ACTUAL REAL SKILL.
Oh sure, I suppose we could debate FOREVER on what "skills" gaming takes, but when I use the word "skill" in the same paragraph as the words "video game," I am adult enough to realize that we're not talking about SKILLS on the level that that word is generally attributed to.....such as architectural design, being a brain surgeon, or other things that TRULY take skill. I think some gamers attribute far too much importance, and thereby arrogance, to their hobby of choice.
Also....where on earth did you get the idea that my post you quoted HERE....was directed at YOU? That was my take, in a comical sense, on the entirety of the thread "flavor," and had nothing to do with YOU personally.
Like I said before....to my mother, who is 67 years old and cannot operate a mouse and keyboard....I am "skilled." But what the hell kind of measuring stick is THAT? Your "skills" in gaming are in direct proportion to who/what you are measuring them against. So what is the system of measurement here? How exactly do you intend to measure "skills" in gaming? It's entirely subjective, and therefore cannot truly be measured.
Of course...this is all just my opinion (as if anyone should need to SAY that on a web forum).
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
"Skill" is a word that has a monkey with a parasol quality to it when applied to videogames. I suppose in the strictest sense it applies to some aspects of gameplay, in the same way that some people are more skilled at say, flossing their gums than others.
But assuming it applies, my question is what skills do you want to reward? For example, it used to be that finding your way around in these worlds was a skill. Some people read and make maps well, others less so. Some people could read quest dialogue and figure out where they needed to go, others not so much. Some could read grid coordinates and other folks never did figure that out. All that went right into the dust bin with in game maps, gps, exclamation marks, etc. So I'm wondering, why is that skill rubbish and being able to type fast is important?
Mmos present a lot of opportunities for players to showcase some type of ability or other, but most of it has been paved over by a big truck marked ez-mode. Eye/hand coordination seems to be the last man standing with almost everything else automated or removed, but I don't see that as an ability more significant than the ones we no longer reward.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
If MMOs didn't require skill, people wouldn't whine so much about PuGs in PvE and PvP.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
You are blithely dismissing the substance of the OP with this and it almost made me overlook the genuine contribution you made with your second and third paragraphs. Let's become less jaded by Derrida and Post-Modernism and agree that there is a thing called objectivity and, however flexible definitions may become, we must agree for the sake of argument that a given term has a particular definition. Granted, the OP didn't explicitly state what 'skill' means to them and that is a problem, but it seems to me that we actually can imply a defition of the term 'skill' from the post.
As you've very aptly stated in your second paragraph, there are all sorts of skills that factor into a MMORPG and there are some that are conected to gameplay mechanics and some that are less so. For example, a skill in Guild Wars 2 will be deciphering the readable languages that the developers have put into play, one of which is New Krytan. This is a legitimate skill but not the sort that OP was very obviously driving at.
You're also correct about your assessment of E-Z mode steamrolling what skils mean and can do, in my mind by the Blizzardozer. That said, what you are missing is the thrust of the argument in the OP: skill in combat needs to make a big comeback. It seems that many people are in agreement with this, even if they are jaded by what you've rightly pointed out in your third paragraph and disagree on what sort of skills should really be considered as 'skill.'
You seem smart, so don't dismiss things like this out of hand. Read more carefully. I'm sure you would have something better to contribute like what sort of combat skills best fit what sort of game or something of that nature.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
I feel a certain amount of dismissing is warranted when someone implies that twitch play is the only real demonstration of player skill in a videogame. There is more than one kind of challenge in an mmo and playing Donkey Kong in Mirkwood *there's a barrel jump* isn't one of the more significant ones, in my opinion. I also think that if "skill" had been used in a less self-aggrandizing way in the OP I may not have been as critical. But since it was, I'm comfortable poking a bit of fun at it.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I was writing a long post. Then I realized, death. Death has been and will be for many many games, a measure of skill. How may times did you die? How many times did you almost die? Did you complete the level or beat the boss on the edge of life the whole time? Did you kill the other guy more times then he killed you?
but really, nothing beats a good boss battle or a hard ass level in a FUN video game. If you die alot it's not so bad because once you finally kill the boss, or beat the level, it's always gratifying.
P.S. I don't want to spend an hour fighting a boss and then win, without ever dying once. That is ridiculouso. And hard levels should have some sort of decent checkpoint system/save option.
p.s.s Unless you want to play platform style, old school hard, when it was really really really hard as hell to beat any game really. Just measure how that old game "hardness" is translated into new games, and you'll see whether a new game is challenging or not, and if it requires skill.
still a pretty long post, yay!
This leads me to my next question in regards to "skills." Is common sense considered a skill? Because 9/10 times my personal issue with PuGs can usually be attributed to an over all lack of common sense. Simple things like....GTFO of the AoE and use some common sense in when to use your OWN AoEs...stuff like that. Or let's see....which group members get priority on heals? Common sense tells me I need to keep up the tank first, MYSELF (if I'm healing....and it's honestly amazing how many times I've heard a healer say, "Oh gosh...I forgot to heal myself") and then the primary dps. I have literally seen healers that didn't understand that the tank needs to be their primary focus, particularly in raids when that is even their ASSIGNED heal. Are those things "skills" or just plain common horse sense?
And then you have PvP. Common sense goes a long way here too, even though it's more interactive, and definitely changes MUCH more from situation to situation and requires thinking on your "feet," so to speak. I've watched dps try like hell to take out the melee that is pounding their teammate, when the healer that is struggling to keep him up....is standing not far behind him in plain sight. O.o I think we've ALL seen things that make you LITERALLY smack your forehead with your palm in AWE of the lack of common sense. But are those things...."skills?"
And a lot of the people that I have personally HEARD bemoan the fact that games don't require more "skill" ...are some of those very aggressive dps types that have that Superman complex (we've all known one or two of those) that run into situations gun blazing, because they KNOW they are awesome enough to SOLO this encounter, and that the group they have with them are just a bunch of scrubs they're "taking along for the ride," only to see that SAME PERSON make some of the most basic errors of judgment in tactics and strategy that I've ever witnessed.
I still think...it's all pretty subjective in an MMO setting that uses/requires team effort. Even in FPS games...I'm still a bit reticent to use the word "skill" to describe lightning reflexes, strategizing, and common sense. Hell just being a mother of three children requires those things and I don't consider myself somehow particularly "skilled" because of that......
I guess for me, it's somewhat an argument over semantics. Some choose to call it "skills." I guess I just prefer to call it common sense. Maybe they're the same thing in the end. I don't know.
Yes. I think that is part of my issue with it as well.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Hmmm, I think that I can buy this. While I still think that you should have been more charitable I think I can see your point in the tone that came across in the OP. Coming from a university background of Philosophy and Theology I'm forced to stretch the principle of charity to the point of breaking far too often in Academia and, you're right and I've said it myself, part of the content of our argument is how we form it.
"Well played, Clerks, well played."
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
Savage is fairly overrated. Natural Selection soundly womps it, both in terms of how important skill is and in game depth. And if we're purely obsessing over the importance of player skill, Tribes 1 beats them both.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think the hysteria over the work "skill" here is pretty hysterical ... and pathetic. It's fairly obvious (to me) that all the OP was looking for was to see how many people preferred games that include dice-roll mechanics versus games that do not.
-- Ambros.
Well skill is measure of decision-making quality.
Is common sense skill? Sure, it's part of it. The term "common sense" describes a plethora of decisions to be made where the correct decision is considered obvious.
Skill is only subjective insofar as we use the term in a general way. Skill is a granular, objective measurement of decision-making quality, and we simply use the binary terms "skilled" or "unskilled" to conveniently and rapidly describe a general location along that granular scale (as we do in much of language.)
As for the overgeared player? Every party's goal is "survive and defeat the encounter as fast as possible." If the party is normally geared, standing in the fire is probably a very bad decision which compromises the party's ability to survive the encounter. But as the party's gear improves, survival is less of a concern and standing in the fire may actually be the fastest way to beat the boss -- the very best decision! (And this example of standing in the fire actually applies to some WOW fights where groups become overgeared.)
So yeah, if the overgeared player's bad decisions cause wipes then they're terrible decisions and he's bad. But it's important not to criticize the most basic errors of judgement (like standing in the fire) if they aren't actually bad decisions. The value of a given decision changes, based on the current conditions and goals of gameplay.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
GOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Funny...what I got from the OP was that "twitch gaming" is something he personally considers a "skill," while any other form of gaming he considers to be a bit beneath him, although he'll settle to play those games, since there's really nothing in the way of an MMO that challenges his elite "twitch" gaming skills. My read on what he said was that, essentially, he values his twitch reflexes in a game above all the other things that factor into playing games. Not all of those things are based on physical speed of reflex, but they are still important factors in whether you will "succeed" at achieving your desired game "goals." Devaluing things like common sense, strategic and tactical planning, good communication, being socially adept, and assorted other things that ALSO factor into playing an MMO, just came across as elitism when I read it.
That condescending tone laced into the post...probably appeared rather insulting (and kind of arrogant) to more than a few people. To me, it was not only that, but sort of comical, since I attribute about as much importance to gaming "skills" as I do to the learned ability to deftly operate a keyboard and mouse in unison. Neither one has any earth shattering degree of importance, and either can be learned by anyone with an average IQ, the desire TO learn, and the time to practice. The more practice, the more quality performance (as with ANYTHING in life, even the most basic things)....it's really as simple as that....if all other quotients are equal, meaning IQ, and desire are on equal level from player to player...then the only other determining factor is amount ot time one practices/plays.
The inclusion of dice roll mechanics wasn't mentioned, so no...I didn't make that correlation. But I'm sure a LOT of people would love a game that didn't depend entirely on dice roll mechanics behind the scenes. That would definitely raise the challenge level and I'm sure would be a welcome arrival or "innovation" at this point in MMO history. I'm not sure anyone at all was disagreeing with that, although...I didn't see him ever actually SAY that. I suppose I might have missed it somewhere else in the thread. But if that is the point that was being made....wow sure....I totally dig that idea.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I have been advocating for awhile now to the 'skill' community of players that the answer to this is a game that is basically the same as an FPS server but in a world that is extreemly large. I often get boo's on such an idea but not only do I think its a great idea I think its EXACTLY what the skill community is asking for. It could be a fantasy based, very large world with no skill numbers at all.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
But then the "skilled" would actually have to rely on their "skill" not gear and statistics to make up the difference.
In MMO PvP, wolves don't want other wolves to fight with, they want sheep to slaughter.
Here lies in the possible problem with pvp in general. People blame the game if they loss saying that the system has a to wide skill spread or the class they choose is unfairly balance and once they are given basically a street fighter version of an MMO with only 1:1, exact same skil, and a big light that says 'go!' then they will no longer play.
That is my assumption, however lately I have been trying to be more open minded and offere suggestions to that community that I think would at least allow the two different types of gamers to leave each other alone
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Such games already exist.. i think you either haven't looked hard enough or they consist of such skill levels that you'd just quit because for the lack of skill on your behest
The main problem within mmos is that the devs don't give full physical control over the 4 main fundamentals:
Striking (offense)
Grappling (offense)
Evasion (defense)
Deflection (defense)
Striking and grappling we have plenty of control over, but evasion and deflection we have no physical control over. As soon as we're able to physically control when to evade or deflect any type of attack, we will never see balance.
We need complete control over these fundamentals of combat and when we finally actually have them, it won't matter how strong a class is or what level you are. I mean, you could be going against a class that could one shot you easily, but so long as you have the direct physical control to completely evade or deflect the death blow, balancing classes and abilities will no longer matter.
Play DDO. Twitch combat multiplayer dungeon crawl.
problem is no one like to lose, if you put skill in a game you will get people cheating in the same way in fps aimbots, orther games infinite hp or god mode, and if ose they will also say its was a cheat or lag, so in the end nothing really will change
I don't believe that 'skill in gaming' and 'twitch gaming' are necessarily the same thing.
Sure, making combat require fast complicated key and mouse movements is an obvious way to add skill, but its not the only way. Greatly increasing the complexity of equipment and combat in general is certainly another choice. EVE and DAOC were two games that can serve as partial examples.
Considering a simple case in EVE of a one on one fight (not the easiest to find, but bear with me), the combination of your skills, your ships capabilities, the type ammunition you are using, the types of guns you choose, your velocity vector in relation to your opponent, your range, the defense equipped on both ships, and the order which you flip on and off various modules will all work together in determining who wins.
Yes, some of these aspects (controlling direction, velocity, and module activation/deactivation) do require an element of coordination but a clever or knowledgeable player will beat a 'quick reflex' player' every time in a 'fair fight'.
You DO NOT need to turn a game into a 'twitch game' or FPS to increase the effect of skillful play.
The issue with most of what you've mentioned is that it does not change during combat. Your ships capabilities and the equipment you have tends to be the biggest factor in the outcome of the battle. Player's want to be able to dynamically alter the outcome of the battle by taking action to do it, and that doesn't mean running, they want to be able to dodge damaging hits. They want to feel like they're doing it rather than pressing a button and watching their ingame character do all the work. You're right that you don't need FPS style combat to accomplish it, but to do it effectively, you're going to be bringing in some elements from FPS style games. Basically I think players who advocate skill in MMORPGs simply want more factors that can be changed during combat that can alter the flow of it.
Agreed, many of the factors that settle an EVE battle are settled before the shooting starts. A few points to consider to move beyond the example of EVE and to general MMO play:
1) There is still an awful lot of knowledge and experience that can go into bringing the right tools to a fight that can add to the feeling that knowledge and experience actually matters.
2) Adding complexity to mechanics and gear allows intelligent non-standard tactics that are obviously missing from most MMOs today.
3) When equipment and tactics can result in extreme damage-mitigation, you force opponents to adjust their game. It doesn't have to be twitch gaming to be complicated and interesting.
Your last sentence captures the philosophy but I feel is misconstrued to mean that ONLY twitch-type changes can be envisioned. I will argue that battle can unfold at a manageable pace and still have room for tactical and strategic play.
Savage 2 is an absolutely amazing game. Unfortunately, there was never more than a handful of people playing it when I discovered it, and the competitive community in that game appeared all but dead. As a competitive gamer, the small community was a major turnoff.
Regarding "skill" in MMOs generally, instead of worrying about whether to define "skill" in terms of twitch, reflexes, strategy, or any other combination of talents that enable one player to be better than another, it's much more useful to consider what gameplay elements contribute to "skill gap." The skill gap is what distinguishes different tiers of players. It can be any combination of gameplay elements (twitch, strategy, tactics, or otherwise) that enable players to set themselves apart. On one extreme, you have a game with zero skill gap: I roll the dice, you roll the dice, and the person with the higher number wins. On the other extreme, you have games with significant skill gaps, which may have nothing to do with twitch: chess, for example. (I can play Bobby Fisher 1000 times, and I guarantee that I will never beat him.)
MMOs traditionally have narrower skill gaps than FPS games, although that is not universally true. I expect the reason for that boils down to simple economics: In an MMO, which traditionally features some sort of shared open game world, the greater the skill gap, the more likely you are to alienate your average or casual gamer (who pays the bills). Why? Because with a large skill gap, casual gamers can never possibly hope to compete with top tier gamers (like me versus Bobby Fisher). Throw them all into the same game world, and your casual gamers get pissed. (If I were a third grader playing in an amateur chess tournament, I'd be pretty pissed if Bobby crashed the party repeatedly.)
In COD, CSS, even WoW arenas, you have ways of distinguishing talent. Top COD/CSS teams have special invite IRC channels for the top-tier professional leagues, where they find scrims. There are separate IRC channels for the lower level competitive leagues, and if you are just a pubber, you can join a random nub server, and the odds that you will stumble across a pro crashing the party is relatively low. (And if you do, you can just leave and join a new server.) WoW has a ratings system to distinguish different tiers of talent, so that you can (hopefully) find PvP games that suit your individual playing abilities.
There are plenty of MMOs that are trying to add "skill" in the sense that the games are action-based, and not tab-targeting based (e.g., Global Agenda, Age of Conan, Tera, etc.), but even in these games (some aim required), the ultimate skill gap is still relatively low. (In Age of Conan, you could avoid aim-based classes by playing ranged, not melee, classes; in Global Agenda, the amount of twitch required was quite low, despite being aim-based.) It seems unlikely that there will be an MMO that creates the sort of skill gap that would enable a single skilled player to single-handedly rampage large groups based on skill alone, however so defined (something that is possible in Savage 2 by the way -- wonder why nobody plays that game...).
So, if you define "skill" as twitch, there are games that are adding that element, but what you're really concerned about ultimately is skill gap, something which is mutually inconsistent with a large, open-world game that seeks to cater to both casual and hardcore players alike. If you won't be satisfied until you see that game, you won't be satisfied for a long, long time.