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Let's Stop the Warhammer 40k Speculation
The_Grump
Member Posts: 331
Isn't the tagline something to the effect of 'in the future there is only war'? This is the part that seems to be missing in all of the nonsensical Warhammer 40k threads about how dividing the playable groups into 'Order' and 'Destruction' is a bad idea.
The Warhammer 40k universe is inherently one where there is no good or evil, every race is making some very bad choices and some more than others. Moreover, in their own way, each group really is 'Order,' especially the Tau and Tyranids. Also, every race is rather bent on destruction and not just the Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids and Dark Eldar. This means that the issue isn't the game being broken down (potentially) into two grouops but the fact that the Warhammer 40k universe really is going to be dumbed down into an incoherent notion of itself.
The developers need to either find a way to embrace the way Games Workshop set up the universe or simply not put the game out, period. Talk focused on the issue of 'Order' and 'Destruction' just misses the point and really should stop.
Edit: Some folks seem to be missing the point here. I am not arguing whether or not the game will succeed or fail. I am arguing that people are missing the point in jumping at speculated gameplay mechanics that don't exist because we don't know what they are, too little has been said to judge. All we know is the that there seems to be a 2-faction PvP setup and we know very little about this. My argument, again, is that it seems to make more sense to argue about something we know (lore) and how that can or should effect gameplay rather than argue about gameplay that hasn't even been described yet.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
Comments
Saying a game will flop as a result of not adhering to previous lore is a big stretch.
A game is much more likely to flop if it compromises gameplay for the sake of lore (rather than the other way around.)
Gameplay without lore can still be incredibly fun. Lore without gameplay? Not so much.
So the arguments which hold weight are those which focus on the gameplay decisions (like the people criticizing a 2-faction game having weaker PVP than a 3-faction game; that's a very valid critique.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In the 40k universe every race is a faction. If they change 30 years of 40k lore just to make a game mechanic work the real 40k fans will be pissed.
I agree that gameplay without lore can be fun, just look at FFXI. The point I am trying to make here is that folks really don't know what is going on yet and are jumping at supposed game mechanices. As it stands, there is no way to critique that because they simply don't know. What I am saying here is that the one thing they can argue about is how the lore works and how that can impact the gameplay, nothing more and nothing less than that.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
I completely agree. So far we know sweet f*ck all about this game, and won't for quite some time. Considering how far away the realease date they have set is, I'm willing to bet the game makers themselves are still undecided about many of the games features.
"Gypsies, tramps, and thieves, we were called by the Admin of the site . . . "
I like the post.
My problem is that as the OP stated in W40k universe there is no order, no destruction defined races. My personally hope is that they dont go down the 2 type PvP stream and at least either make free for all or three way, that would be more like the lore settings. These terms concerned me a little in the limited info that we have about the game and yes there is plenty of time for them to whatever they want. However, i dont want them to do, what others have done to some pretty awesome IP's recently. (points finger at STO,) and completely ruin them. Dont try and simplify for box sales. just make it as it should be made, it seemed to work for blizzard. I guess i just want the game to be awesome and not a pussies version of warhammer.
you are right, they have to make the game 7-faction
Im sure they will be REALLY grateful when you lend them the extra 60 or 70 million dollars it would take to develop the game up to that point.
how kind of you, hats off...
....wait, what? you arent willing to lend them $70m? then plz shut the fuck up
the sense of entitlement that some poor idiots feel when it comes to gaming is amazing ....who are you to DEMAND anything? right, a total nobody...
Vigil is not your personal army, and they arent forced to borrow a dime to make "your" vision of the game or please you in any way.
if you dont want to play the game as it is, by all means dont do it, I promise I wont cry when you arent there on release day... just save us this kind of "Im so tremendously important on the internet that I must tell everybody why the rest is wrong and they have to change to accomodate me...btw Im gonna eat a pickle later" threads
wordpress is -------> way
Well... a 7 way cluster*bleep* could be fun on a small scale but then agagin 90% of the tabletop games are 'tween 2 armies. So in average you do not need to worry about that. In the MMO this is not the case as all races and factions are present. How you solve said cluster*bleed* without having some sort of factional diversion i have no idea... I guess one way would be to simply divide each pvp encounter i to attackers vs defenders and let any one join any side as long as the numbers roughly add up.
This in it own right causes problem such as how tostop people from just switching sides when the brown hit's the rotating device. Also while this works well for instanced combat it is abit tricker for Open(aka World) PvP and i am not sure a FFA 7 way meatgrinder is the best way to go but i could be wrong,
I am more curious how they are going to impliment creatures like Tyranids or Necron who have no real motive outside total assimilation of a planets bio-mass. It is not like they will go questing exactly. And how do you balance Space Marines/Chaos marines... After all "Give me a 100 space marines or failing that a 1000 other men" Not to mention all the bleeding special rules for the different chapters... Or if they just take one chapter how to placate the other fans...
All in all i am sure that it will be waterd down in some way or another... Theyt can not make a game that captures ALL of the WH40K universe.
This have been a good conversation
This is your reply, your considered reply?
Well, I told myself that I wouldn't reply to really bad responses but...wow, I just don't see how you get what you wrote from my posting. Instead of posting anything remotely helpful or interesting you come off with this? Other people may come off with a difference of opinion, some already had, but they've all been rather intelligent. Your response looks like some sort of desperate cry for attention and I just can't understand it.
The next time you choose to experess your opinion try to do so constructively instead of with vitriol, you'll look less like an asshole that way.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
I'm incredibly curious how they will implement certain races myself and your last sentence or two really captures what I'm getting at. Warhammer 40k is a tremendously large and storied setting and I can't imagine how they can do it justice; they're going to have to water it down. The RTS games worked rather well, I think, because they can still capture the spirit of the setting with great gameplay. It should be interesting to see what they do and maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised. I'm not so sure that we will, but maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
I am content to wait and see what Vigil has in store.
Anybody that has played any Games Workshop product before should know that They themselves make sweeping changes to lore in order to sell new/updated products and they should also know that GW will sign off on everything that makes it into this game...
Yep, all two or three thousand of you will walk away. Meanwhile they're trying to build a game that appeals to millions of folks who could care a whit about 40K lore.
Guess what should rightfully win out? Gameplay of course, regardless of the lore. WAR failed to realize this and their 2 faction system suffered for it.
As for stopping the speculation about the game, all I can say is its nice to see new people join the forums and soon they will understand how things work around here.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
TBH GW could jsut get Dan Abnan or whoever to write a new novel talking about this area of space and how a sole Craftworld has agreed to cease hostilities with the Emporers chosen as they risk of Chaos destroying these devices is far more deadly than fighting each other over worlds etc
there, lore is changed and the game can be made
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ab/Norsefire-logo.png
Someone should take their own advice here...OP. You first come here to whine about speculation then you jump right in speculating. I marked in red a statement I find so ignorant and self entitled it makes me want to vomit. Just because you can’t wrap your pea brain around the idea that there is a team of people that collaborate with Games Workshop to make it as accurate as possible within the constraints of budget and time is no ones fault but your own. Take some of your own advice and shut up until they release more details.
I'm from the Dungeons and Dragons side of things and am not too familiar with the whole Warhammer thing somy question is is Warhammer 40k the same franchise as Warhammer Online Age of Reckoning.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
The game will be 2 faction, WoW copied mechanics and graphic design.
Sorry folks, Developers and Puplishers are out ot make money to the mass market, not to stick to some code of conduct about lore, if you want lore...read the books or play table top.
P.S....WAR just got everything wrong..copy WoW ..but on a 1/3 of budget with less talented folks and hype the game to be "The One"
Well, they're both made by Games Workshop if that's what you meant. Someone in another thread (yeah, go figure, there are a bajillion threads about WE DON'T WANT 2 FACTIONS!) had an interesting theory about the Slann actually traveling to Warhammer's world and settling there, becoming Lizardmen. I guess it could be possible; not all worlds in Warhammer 40k are technologically advanced. In fact, a fair number of them have medieval technology levels, due to the Age of Strife in which many human colonies fought against each other and were severed, meaning some prospered and others regressed. Having a world with a 16th Century level of technology like Warhammer's is not strange.
I don't know GW's official stance on that; maybe Warhammer 40k is just Warhammer in the future. I haven't seen any mention of Earth in Warhammer, though, and Earth is a prominent planet in Warhammer 40k, so I think the above theory may hold some weight. It'd be interesting if it did, but I'd figure the Empire on the Warhammer planet would be contacted by the Imperium at some point.
From what i have read so far it seems like it's more than 2 side faction warfare but THQ has not yet stated anything as to how PvP will turn out. For all intensive purposes Vigil/THQ is not Mythic/EA, they have been making 40K games for a couple of years and have the experience to make it a better MMO than Warhammer.
Hmm? Which big-name MMO veterans are part of Vigil currently?
Seems like a stretch to assume that 40k RTS-making experience from an entirely different developer within THQ (Relic) will translate to a better game than the superior number of veteran MMO-making devs I imagine Mythic had when WAR was developed.
40k could certainly end up the better game, but I just don't get the impression that "MMO veterancy" is going to be the reason why.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Quoting your OP:
" The developers need to either find a way to embrace the way Games Workshop set up the universe or simply not put the game out, period."
I rest my case [mod edit]
Hollywood makes movies with extraplanetary budgets and they rarely if ever are as good as the books they are based upon. Games are far more limiting than movies. You got tigher budgets, balance concerns, a metric ton of modelling and artistic work, network coding, world size, quests for all sides...and a limited manpower to make all that...and even more limited deadlines if you want to release before the next decade...
Im sure if Vigil ends up going with a 2 faction system it wont be because a suit waked up one day and said "I feel like [mod edit - let's just say "wrecking"] an IP today". It is because of one, a few, or most likely ALL the reasons explained above at once.
so as long as you arent willing to put your cash where your mouth is and hand them a few million dollars to develop a more cannon game, [mod edit] accept things as they come, or gently pass. I dont care which one.
[mod edit]
Let's keep the flames out please - Soliloquy
I like speculation, its fun and it is 75% or more of what is going on in these forums.
Now to start my speculating, Some of the things worry me. Finding out what space marines do off the battlefield? Sorry I don't think most of us are interested. 40K is one of the few IP's were EVERYTHING is war, and I think they should be focusing on making the WAR part being done right rather than this superficial stuff. Right now we can only pray/hope they aren't getting in over their heads.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
There is a flop of a game known as Warhammer Online. I suggest you go read about it and the concessions made to "gameplay" which lead to the butchering the IP and a 2 faction system which nailed its coffin.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
The fact of the matter the multi-army faction is just pandering to fanboys. Which backfires since those fanboys will be annoyed by the break in lore by making multi-army factions in the first place.
There is no reason they cannot make solid factions with just one army on each side. Space Marines and Orks have plenty of lore and interest behind them to create a game with just them. I don't understand this obsession the throw as much crap into a game as you can to appease everyone.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
That's illogical. Just because WAR turned out decidedly average doesn't mean that every decision of the dev team was wrong. I assure you the game would've turned out worse if they had let lore trump gameplay.
Bad MMORPGs exist which use a fantasy setting: does this mean fantasy is a bad setting for MMORPGs? Of course not.
Basically you have the racecar driver and he has to choose his car, his equipment, and make hundreds of little decisions during the race -- and it's the culmination of those decisions which determines his placement.
Mythic is the average racecar driver: they made a smart decision in focusing on gameplay over lore, but they made the wrong choice in a lot of those little decisions during the race that they came in middle of the pack in terms of game quality.
And from gamers' perspective, "middle of the pack" is a terrible game not worth their time.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Go check out my other thread on possible ways a 2-faction system could work.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282317/Warhammer-40K-2-factions-can-it-work.html
Warhammer online had/has a lot of flaws, but the lore having anything to do with its downfall is not correct. I was driven away from the game due to the bad BAAAAAD quality. Bad graphics, bad performance, horrible HORRIBLE social features (no general chat? Really). At no point at all did i ever catch myself thinking "AMG WTF??! Goblins can't use these kind of staffs. Only the witches of western Arkhuzal know how to tap it power. OMG IM OUT"... I did NOT care about the lore at all. It was the technical difficulties of the game that drove me away.