I've always found it rather ironic that players of other MMOs get up in-arms when a potentially good MMO goes into development. It happened when EQ was the big daddy and everyone else were small fries. EQ players ridiculed DAoC for being too EQ-like and WoW for being too "kiddy". Now, WoW players ridicule other MMOs for being too WoW-like or not being accessible enough (I've seen the later).
WoW, sadly, is going nowhere. It will remain the big dog on the market until a bigger name is released. Honestly speaking, SWTOR has that potential; but so did a slew of other games. Only time will tell. The execution of the game is what will make or break it. If the game is released unpolished with bugs, lag, balance issues, and excessive downtime; then SWTOR will be doomed. However, if it is released with minimal issues (it can happen. DAoC had a good released...despite the balance issues); the SWTOR will thrive. It won't kill WoW, but it won't be killed by WoW either. SWTOR is going to be a nice alternative.
To be successful in today's finicky market, a new MMO must:
- Have minimal bugs. At least, no huge glaring bugs. You know, the game stopping kind
- Balance issues: frankly, balance is difficult to have in of itself, but thats what beta is for. To find these issues and get them as close to balanced as possible.
- Stability and Downtime: Downtime is bound to happen during the first month of a game. Stability is essential. If the game is up for 6 hrs a day; it will not maintain customers.
- "Final" Product: Last thing we want to see is features removed at the last moment or a huge patch to slow down leveling the day after the game is released. I won't mention the names of the MMOs that did such things. =p
I went a little off-track. Basically, to sum it up: SWTOR isn't another WoW. There are fundamental aspects that are in all MMOs that can't being ignored. Just beacuse SWTOR has a mini-map and quests, doesn't mean it is WoW. It just means those two features are so important, that an MMO without them is making a big mistake.
I've tried all the major MMOs that have been released in the US since EQ "died" (yea, I know. It is still going, but it "died" for me long ago).
I don't think the MMO market is finicky. Players just expect good games. Largely that's minimum bugs, good stability, polished AND fun gameplay. I think balance is actually an issue people are very forgiving about. There's not one game I'm aware of that failed because of ONLY balance issues. There are plenty of games that failed because they had only one of the other problems.
Really the MMO market has been plagued with largely crappy games since WoW. I think over the next 12 months we'll be seeing that change. ToR, GW2, FFXIV, and others should be high quality games. I don't think any game will ever dominate the market the way WoW is doing right now, not even WoW. The current situation is as much about lack of good competition as anything else.
Of that, I will agree. There won't be another "WoW". WoW is an abnormality. People were tired of EQ and the subsquent "clones" that came after it.
I totally agree that the market needs some good competition. WoW has gotten bland. The fantasy genre in general is just too boring now. We need something new. We need something Sci-Fi. The problem is that good Sci-fi games just don't exist at the moment. (I don't consider Eve good). SWTOR looks to fill that gap.
SWTOR, GW2, and FFXIV look to make some nice changes and hopefully give some competition to WoW. However, I'd recommend removing GW2 from the "competition" aspect seeing as how it is going to be F2P. So that pretty much leaves SWTOR and FFXIV, both of which have a much wider fanbase IMHO. WoW fanobi'ism is rampant, but not as much as the Star Wars geek!
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
I've always found it rather ironic that players of other MMOs get up in-arms when a potentially good MMO goes into development. It happened when EQ was the big daddy and everyone else were small fries. EQ players ridiculed DAoC for being too EQ-like and WoW for being too "kiddy". Now, WoW players ridicule other MMOs for being too WoW-like or not being accessible enough (I've seen the later).
WoW, sadly, is going nowhere. It will remain the big dog on the market until a bigger name is released. Honestly speaking, SWTOR has that potential; but so did a slew of other games. Only time will tell. The execution of the game is what will make or break it. If the game is released unpolished with bugs, lag, balance issues, and excessive downtime; then SWTOR will be doomed. However, if it is released with minimal issues (it can happen. DAoC had a good released...despite the balance issues); the SWTOR will thrive. It won't kill WoW, but it won't be killed by WoW either. SWTOR is going to be a nice alternative.
To be successful in today's finicky market, a new MMO must:
- Have minimal bugs. At least, no huge glaring bugs. You know, the game stopping kind
- Balance issues: frankly, balance is difficult to have in of itself, but thats what beta is for. To find these issues and get them as close to balanced as possible.
- Stability and Downtime: Downtime is bound to happen during the first month of a game. Stability is essential. If the game is up for 6 hrs a day; it will not maintain customers.
- "Final" Product: Last thing we want to see is features removed at the last moment or a huge patch to slow down leveling the day after the game is released. I won't mention the names of the MMOs that did such things. =p
I went a little off-track. Basically, to sum it up: SWTOR isn't another WoW. There are fundamental aspects that are in all MMOs that can't being ignored. Just beacuse SWTOR has a mini-map and quests, doesn't mean it is WoW. It just means those two features are so important, that an MMO without them is making a big mistake.
I've tried all the major MMOs that have been released in the US since EQ "died" (yea, I know. It is still going, but it "died" for me long ago).
I don't think the MMO market is finicky. Players just expect good games. Largely that's minimum bugs, good stability, polished AND fun gameplay. I think balance is actually an issue people are very forgiving about. There's not one game I'm aware of that failed because of ONLY balance issues. There are plenty of games that failed because they had only one of the other problems.
Really the MMO market has been plagued with largely crappy games since WoW. I think over the next 12 months we'll be seeing that change. ToR, GW2, FFXIV, and others should be high quality games. I don't think any game will ever dominate the market the way WoW is doing right now, not even WoW. The current situation is as much about lack of good competition as anything else.
Of that, I will agree. There won't be another "WoW". WoW is an abnormality. People were tired of EQ and the subsquent "clones" that came after it.
I totally agree that the market needs some good competition. WoW has gotten bland. The fantasy genre in general is just too boring now. We need something new. We need something Sci-Fi. The problem is that good Sci-fi games just don't exist at the moment. (I don't consider Eve good). SWTOR looks to fill that gap.
SWTOR, GW2, and FFXIV look to make some nice changes and hopefully give some competition to WoW. However, I'd recommend removing GW2 from the "competition" aspect seeing as how it is going to be F2P. So that pretty much leaves SWTOR and FFXIV, both of which have a much wider fanbase IMHO. WoW fanobi'ism is rampant, but not as much as the Star Wars geek!
i would never count out GW2...as guildwars for many is still a main MMO and there is no need to pay for a game...GW2 will bring what these other MMOs have to offer in a B2P package...it wont be free just no monthly sub.
counting out GW2 is a poor thing to do as GW was very popular and to think that it wont pull some subs away from these P2P game is just being dumb.
hell if SWTOR doesn't have space combat then GW2 offers the same thing just with better PvP concepts and a changing world...with no monthly sub
I'm sorry, but there is no way to look at SW:TOR and not only compare it to WoW, but note the many similarities of the two. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is where the "WoW clone" nickname comes from. WoW is successful because it does a lot of things right, and it's obvious that parts of that formula would be copied by newer games. From graphics to gameplay style, it's clear that TOR has been heavily influenced by WoW.
The storytelling and questing may be what separates the two the most, although I would say that one would have to play through both games' stories to accurately make that distinction. It will take more than VO'ed interactions to make storytelling truly epic. The usual quests with the addition of talky NPC's will certainly not silence critics. The space combat possibility would also be a distinguishing mark for the game Perhaps a more accurate description in comparison to WoW would be "Paternal Twin", not an exact copy, but sharing an awful lot of the same genetic traits.
Saying that the two games are completely different is an ignorant statement, and anyone who attempts to do so are creating fodder for others who are extremely critical of the game. TOR being similar to WoW is not a bad thing if BW sticks to the concepts that are successful, and innovates on those features to make them better.
P.S. I've seen a few posts in this thread forecasting millions of subs in th 1st year. Don't count on it. While this game has a lot of positive hype surrounding it, it also carries a lot of negative hype as well. That, a still shaky economy, competition from other anticipated MMO's next year, and the fact that there is always a percentage of people that buy an MMO but aren't satisfied and quit after any launch, and you reduce the amount of subscribers there. Also factor in that there are many people who are content with their current game and unwilling to change, people who don't like MMO's, and people who don't like WoW or anything that resembles it, and the pool gets even more shallow.
My bet 1 year after launch: ~1.5 million boxes sold, 800-900k subs. If content grows, some tweaks to gameplay are made, and the game defines itself as an original title, subs could rise with ease in year two.
I've always found it rather ironic that players of other MMOs get up in-arms when a potentially good MMO goes into development. It happened when EQ was the big daddy and everyone else were small fries. EQ players ridiculed DAoC for being too EQ-like and WoW for being too "kiddy". Now, WoW players ridicule other MMOs for being too WoW-like or not being accessible enough (I've seen the later).
WoW, sadly, is going nowhere. It will remain the big dog on the market until a bigger name is released. Honestly speaking, SWTOR has that potential; but so did a slew of other games. Only time will tell. The execution of the game is what will make or break it. If the game is released unpolished with bugs, lag, balance issues, and excessive downtime; then SWTOR will be doomed. However, if it is released with minimal issues (it can happen. DAoC had a good released...despite the balance issues); the SWTOR will thrive. It won't kill WoW, but it won't be killed by WoW either. SWTOR is going to be a nice alternative.
To be successful in today's finicky market, a new MMO must:
- Have minimal bugs. At least, no huge glaring bugs. You know, the game stopping kind
- Balance issues: frankly, balance is difficult to have in of itself, but thats what beta is for. To find these issues and get them as close to balanced as possible.
- Stability and Downtime: Downtime is bound to happen during the first month of a game. Stability is essential. If the game is up for 6 hrs a day; it will not maintain customers.
- "Final" Product: Last thing we want to see is features removed at the last moment or a huge patch to slow down leveling the day after the game is released. I won't mention the names of the MMOs that did such things. =p
I went a little off-track. Basically, to sum it up: SWTOR isn't another WoW. There are fundamental aspects that are in all MMOs that can't being ignored. Just beacuse SWTOR has a mini-map and quests, doesn't mean it is WoW. It just means those two features are so important, that an MMO without them is making a big mistake.
I've tried all the major MMOs that have been released in the US since EQ "died" (yea, I know. It is still going, but it "died" for me long ago).
I don't think the MMO market is finicky. Players just expect good games. Largely that's minimum bugs, good stability, polished AND fun gameplay. I think balance is actually an issue people are very forgiving about. There's not one game I'm aware of that failed because of ONLY balance issues. There are plenty of games that failed because they had only one of the other problems.
Really the MMO market has been plagued with largely crappy games since WoW. I think over the next 12 months we'll be seeing that change. ToR, GW2, FFXIV, and others should be high quality games. I don't think any game will ever dominate the market the way WoW is doing right now, not even WoW. The current situation is as much about lack of good competition as anything else.
Of that, I will agree. There won't be another "WoW". WoW is an abnormality. People were tired of EQ and the subsquent "clones" that came after it.
I totally agree that the market needs some good competition. WoW has gotten bland. The fantasy genre in general is just too boring now. We need something new. We need something Sci-Fi. The problem is that good Sci-fi games just don't exist at the moment. (I don't consider Eve good). SWTOR looks to fill that gap.
SWTOR, GW2, and FFXIV look to make some nice changes and hopefully give some competition to WoW. However, I'd recommend removing GW2 from the "competition" aspect seeing as how it is going to be F2P. So that pretty much leaves SWTOR and FFXIV, both of which have a much wider fanbase IMHO. WoW fanobi'ism is rampant, but not as much as the Star Wars geek!
i would never count out GW2...as guildwars for many is still a main MMO and there is no need to pay for a game...GW2 will bring what these other MMOs have to offer in a B2P package...it wont be free just no monthly sub.
counting out GW2 is a poor thing to do as GW was very popular and to think that it wont pull some subs away from these P2P game is just being dumb.
hell if SWTOR doesn't have space combat then GW2 offers the same thing just with better PvP concepts and a changing world...with no monthly sub
I don't totally discount GW2. I'm just skeptical an a F2P model MMO in the US. It will be difficult to give an accurate count on actively played subs as opposed to people that play for a month here and there. If they can make the F2P model work, maintain content, and keep the persistant world going; then that definitely puts GW2 in contention.
My issue is, seeing as I've played GW, is outside of the PvP aspect; you can "beat" the game rather quickly. Thus the replay value isn't as high as a true MMO. GW2 may be a different beast, but how much can a game without a subscription really do in terms of competition when someone can easily have both a sub-based game and GW2, going?
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
I couldn't even BEGIN to tell you how hard I just rolled my eyes reading the OP's title. Comon man, even I (previously a fanboi for several games) couldn't even stomach that title. It's almost as if everyone is screaming at their PC monitors for this game to be good, and for Bioware not to be yet another raper of someone's childhood.
My childhood thus far raped:
-Warhammer
-Warhammer 40k (it looks TERRIBLE, no mistakes learned from Warhammer Online)
-Diablo 1 + 2 (3 looks like it's been HEAVILY influenced by Warfract, cross genre atmosphere jumping = BAD)
-Star Trek (HAHAHHHHAhhaahhahahha........ =< )
-Not to mention EVERY good movie made prior to 2000.......effing remakes
Although I am optimistic since it's Bioware, they jumped into a lake that they were unfamiliar with. An MMORPG, "stylized" graphics and singleplayer gameplay does NOT equal.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
This game will break a million subs in week 1, before people even know if the game is any good.
And if it excludes a lot of players then it will fall right after. A million box sales =|= a million active subs.
Sadly I think this game will do really well, and it will be the death knell for real MMORPGs. A bunch of non MMO fans will buy it because its Bioware, because its Star Wars, and they'll play the single player portion without even thinking of it, happily paying a monthly fee that is not justified by the mechanics of the game.
QFT.
Will I play ToR? yes
Am I excited about ToR? yes
Do I think ToR is a money grab by Bioware to capitalize on MMOs being "it" right now? yes
While on the surface it may seem that TOR has adopted a few things from WOW, calling it a clone is going overboard.
Do i think TOR will be a success, yes i do. I also think GW2 and FF will also be as well. Time is running out on WOW's reign in the western markets. Now this doesn't mean that out of the new games coming out there is the so called WOW killer. That is just a dumb statement.
What i do see is that, the hardcore WOW players will never leave and coupled with the eastern market, will always have a strong community. I also see these new games having strong and populated communities and the mmo genre will finally balance itself out.
The more good games that come out means a win/win situation for us mmorpger's
It will be a good themepark MMO, polished and fun...and very similar to what we've all played before.
I'm not passing good / bad judgement on that, but it isn't going to innovate much. Fine by me, I can enjoy a quality (read: Bioware) themepark MMO for a time.
So what would you all do in your presitant open would with no quests, no story, no direction? Since if you add quest and story palyer freedom starts to become limited due to the inability of developers to predict player behavioral patters and the like. Most openish world games i know of are all single player with a few MMOs out there, but i was not terribly thrilled with EVE, i have a great imagination but i just could not get immersed into EVE, i agree though that there are features in sandbox games that are very good but there are some that are just unrealistic or maybe too realistic, i play games to escape from reality not to add reality to them.
PS. this is not an attack on the sandbox form of MMO I am just curious as to what it is you want i see references to SWG pre NGE/CU and EVE and the like but little explinations of what it is that you found in those games and what it is you are really looking for in new ones. Yes i get you want an open world but why do you want it that what, what are the benefits, how would the game play and people interact and how will those interactions affect that world and what would be the effects of those interactions on new players, etc... etc.. etc...
well for me these games have a very different feel than a game like EQ or other "classic" mmos
SWG felt very peculiar due to its strong orientation to player interaction... the game had something extremely fascinating imo, to camp in the middle of tat's desert with a buddy, enter in a cantina full of entertainers (no bots :P), to partecipate to an "elitish" auction/party or to look at a group of actors who perform some SW parody in the theatre of your town is an experience that no other mmos i tried had and that added another "pillar" (as bio will say) to the game
with my main i used to be an hunter for the first months, providing pelts and high end drops to armosmiths so not something that dissimilar to standard "mission running" of various mmos with the difference that the "quest giver" was a real player and not an npc quest giver (a good thing imo)
i had also an entertainer alt... and i was quite surprised to see how i enjoyed it, i entered in a band who used to perform in a small cantina and it was kinda strange we used to do training sessions for the "prime time" shows, and we had some cute dancers who used to flirt with the adventurers who stopped by... it was a very social gameplay, very different than my usual kill the big kimo, but fun and with a rewarding gaming experience, not only for us, but i guess for our "customers" too.
i'm not even going to touch the fantastic crafting system but anyway... SWG had its problems... the world felt a bit "empty" sometimes and the combat for sure was nothing to speak about, so for a player who is just looking to get uber loot and be "all powerfull" it had not much to offer... but for the player who like to interact and like immersion it had a lot to offer.
EVE is a very different beast, the interaction level is quite different than the one of SWG, both have strong player interaction focus but while SWG one was extremely "personal" the one in EVE is "massive" i will say...
in this game, regardless of what you do, you really have the feeling to be a part of a big "world", the game is essentially player driven and on top of that it focus a lot on competitive gaming... with its huge numbers it offers a kind of experience that no other mmo (at least ones i tried) can offer and is one of the few mmos where pvp have a meaning... be it the pwirate looking for carebears in low sec or the guy who fight in a mega alliance who want to conquer the space of an enemy alliance.
to sum up, the things about these game, are that they offers (or used to offer in case of swg) a different experience than the one of "classic" mmos, something very unique and that because they had a different focus on various game aspects... note that i'm not saying that these mmos are superior to other, i can say that i prefer this or that but in the end they are different products that will appeal to different people.
about the topic... well is too early to say how SWTOR will play, we have no idea about how various chars will play, nor how the encounters are crafted also i think that lot of people underestimate the companion thing, an idea that worries me a bit, but that indeed is a big twist in the "classic" mmo mechanic... so i think is a bit early to post any judgment about how the game will play
i actually think this will be a very good game for wow-players if they fix the combat to make it less glitchy and more visceral (they have almost a year to do this)
- exact same gameplay
- similar classes, just with sci-fi themes
- holy trinity gameplay like wow
- quests but done better
- instances but done better
- battlegrounds like wow
- same graphical style, but with a sci-fi theme
- big focus on loot progression like wow
- mob / quest grinding like wow
i think the addition of story will make it more appealing as it's just a better way of doing quests imo. i think anyone who isn't sick of wow yet will really enjoy this game if the combat gets up to par. besides it seems you can easily skip the dialogue like you can with wow quests for those who aren't interested in lore
That's a Dev on the combat demo they did. There's also a lot of other reasons why one would think they aren't going with a WoW-like Holy Trinity. Personally, when I see how they use it, seems like they mean a watered-down trinity that isn't what a lot of people mean. In WoW, the tank takes most of the damage and that's his only real job, the healer spams heals (only job), and the damage dealer just deals damage (occasionally a CC is needed). That's what a lot of people mean by the Holy Trinity, super-specialization where you only do one thing. By all accounts, TOR doesn't work like that. Consulars in actual play won't spam heals, but will use many other abilities including melee attacks. Overall, it is a lot more comparable to D&D. Sure, you can call your Paladin a "tank" in D&D, but he's not doing the same thing as a tank in WoW, even if he takes point, similarly the healer doesn't just heal, and "damage dealers" don't just deal damage.
Overall, there is every reason to think combat roles will be more complex.
There's a lot of indication that this is NOT the case.
have you actually seen the group dynamic gameplay movie where the trooper tank holds aggro while the jedi consular heal spams him and the dps-specced knight and smuggler dps the boss and his mobs? the class specs even decide for example if the sith warrior wants to be a tank or a dpser (and probably same for his mirror class on republic).
sure you can spec hybrid but whos going to pick a hybrid for their raid when they can get a specialised player? that's always going to be best in mmo group situations.
There's a lot of indication that this is NOT the case.
have you actually seen the group dynamic gameplay movie where the trooper tank holds aggro while the jedi consular heal spams him and the dps-specced knight and smuggler dps the boss and his mobs? the class specs even decide for example if the sith warrior wants to be a tank or a dpser (and probably same for his mirror class on republic).
sure you can spec hybrid but whos going to pick a hybrid for their raid when they can get a specialised player? that's always going to be best in mmo group situations.
Ah, you responded while I was editing my post. I including a Dev talking about that demo and how it was dumbed down.
Not only that, your Companions have a significant influence on the group make up too, up to the point that you don't even need to wait to bring a class with strong healing capabilities if you and your friends are more tank, cc or dps oriented or if your group is lacking in strong dps classes: you all just bring along the Companion types that reinforce where your team setup was weak or missing.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Not only that, your Companions have a significant influence on the group make up too, up to the point that you don't even need to wait to bring a class with strong healing capabilities if you and your friends are more tank, cc or dps oriented or if your group is lacking in strong dps classes: you all just bring along the Companion types that reinforce where your team setup was weak or missing.
Hahaha, taking out the challenging part out of an MMO? Way to go. I suspect this is not a game for MMO gamers.
Way to go to draw your premature conclusions I guess some people can already tell that the game won't be challenging, or know what every other MMO gamer likes.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Way to go to draw your premature conclusions I guess some people can already tell that the game won't be challenging, or know what every other MMO gamer likes.
Of course I can tell the game won't be challenging, if I don't struggle to find the right class and have a companion to replace it then imagine how the rest game will be like. And yes, I believe the game will target players from the "offline" genre rather than the pure MMO gamers. Someone can tell that even with the few information we have on the game.
Sure, mate, whatever you say If you can tell that with the few information that is available, that this is a game not for MMO gamers, then it must be so. You might consider going into stocks, that's one hell of a talent.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Way to go to draw your premature conclusions I guess some people can already tell that the game won't be challenging, or know what every other MMO gamer likes.
Of course I can tell the game won't be challenging, if I don't struggle to find the right class and have a companion to replace it then imagine how the rest game will be like. And yes, I believe the game will target players from the "offline" genre rather than the pure MMO gamers. Someone can tell that even with the few information we have on the game.
Why does it matter?
Maybe Bioware doesnt want to target the "hardcore" MMO players.
Way to go to draw your premature conclusions I guess some people can already tell that the game won't be challenging, or know what every other MMO gamer likes.
Of course I can tell the game won't be challenging, if I don't struggle to find the right class and have a companion to replace it then imagine how the rest game will be like. And yes, I believe the game will target players from the "offline" genre rather than the pure MMO gamers. Someone can tell that even with the few information we have on the game.
Why does it matter?
Maybe Bioware doesnt want to target the "hardcore" MMO players.
Noone said it matters or if this is bad thing, just pointing out the obvious
Way to go to draw your premature conclusions I guess some people can already tell that the game won't be challenging, or know what every other MMO gamer likes.
Of course I can tell the game won't be challenging, if I don't struggle to find the right class and have a companion to replace it then imagine how the rest game will be like. And yes, I believe the game will target players from the "offline" genre rather than the pure MMO gamers. Someone can tell that even with the few information we have on the game.
Why does it matter?
Maybe Bioware doesnt want to target the "hardcore" MMO players.
Noone said it matters or if this is bad thing, just pointing out the obvious
I don't see how you can come to that at all? I'll be the one to say this here, MMO's are all the same. Grind, quest, loot , craft, PvP. I like MMO's but they are all the same. SOme mechanic's change, but other that than, they're all twins. There's millions of other MMO player's that arn't on this site. SWTOR will pull a lot of them. Most MMO player's hop to new MMO everytime they come out, just looking for something new.
It doesn't matter who Bioware target's, people will play it.
again, the defense I hear is "but this game has a deep storyline, not a mindless grind" .... yeah, I get it. Your NPC's will talk to you and let you choose which pre-recorded part of the conversation comes next.
Look, after a week of these so called 'amazing' story line quests, you'll be bored, and feel like you're doing another mindless grind. Only this time, you're mindless grind will stop you in your tracks with cinematics and voice over work to remind you that you are just grinding. Luckily, you'll be able to queue up to some battleground to break the monotony. Good thing we're not all bored of queuing up for instances/battlegrounds, right?..... *yawn*
OP, really, what about this game makes you think it's more than a lightsaber-jedi-sith-skinned&voiced version of WoW?
People tagging everything that hits their eye a 'WoW clone' make me question their intelligence and their level of reasoning capability. But I guess some people need such crutches and easy classifications, lacking the ability to look further and deeper than they're worth.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
lol i love the wow clone bit is still going .. i should start calling every fps a doom clone or every rpg a neverwinter nights clone or every platformer a mario clone ... stfu people an mmo has its bounderies at to how you can create the ui and combat.. i wouldnt waist 150 million on creating an inovating game nobody will play instead of a familiar mmo feel that everyone can understand and play.. this wow clone stuff is so 2 years ago i figured all these teens would be grown up by now to see that mmo as a genre has a certain way of playing it. if you change the way you play an mmo is it really and mmo or is it just another action game with lots of people... fyi the first mmo was NWN and everquest copyed from it and so on and so on so everthing really is a nwn clone if your small minded and cant see that mmo genre has its boundries to how you can create and play it.
Comments
Of that, I will agree. There won't be another "WoW". WoW is an abnormality. People were tired of EQ and the subsquent "clones" that came after it.
I totally agree that the market needs some good competition. WoW has gotten bland. The fantasy genre in general is just too boring now. We need something new. We need something Sci-Fi. The problem is that good Sci-fi games just don't exist at the moment. (I don't consider Eve good). SWTOR looks to fill that gap.
SWTOR, GW2, and FFXIV look to make some nice changes and hopefully give some competition to WoW. However, I'd recommend removing GW2 from the "competition" aspect seeing as how it is going to be F2P. So that pretty much leaves SWTOR and FFXIV, both of which have a much wider fanbase IMHO. WoW fanobi'ism is rampant, but not as much as the Star Wars geek!
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
i would never count out GW2...as guildwars for many is still a main MMO and there is no need to pay for a game...GW2 will bring what these other MMOs have to offer in a B2P package...it wont be free just no monthly sub.
counting out GW2 is a poor thing to do as GW was very popular and to think that it wont pull some subs away from these P2P game is just being dumb.
hell if SWTOR doesn't have space combat then GW2 offers the same thing just with better PvP concepts and a changing world...with no monthly sub
I'm sorry, but there is no way to look at SW:TOR and not only compare it to WoW, but note the many similarities of the two. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it is where the "WoW clone" nickname comes from. WoW is successful because it does a lot of things right, and it's obvious that parts of that formula would be copied by newer games. From graphics to gameplay style, it's clear that TOR has been heavily influenced by WoW.
The storytelling and questing may be what separates the two the most, although I would say that one would have to play through both games' stories to accurately make that distinction. It will take more than VO'ed interactions to make storytelling truly epic. The usual quests with the addition of talky NPC's will certainly not silence critics. The space combat possibility would also be a distinguishing mark for the game Perhaps a more accurate description in comparison to WoW would be "Paternal Twin", not an exact copy, but sharing an awful lot of the same genetic traits.
Saying that the two games are completely different is an ignorant statement, and anyone who attempts to do so are creating fodder for others who are extremely critical of the game. TOR being similar to WoW is not a bad thing if BW sticks to the concepts that are successful, and innovates on those features to make them better.
P.S. I've seen a few posts in this thread forecasting millions of subs in th 1st year. Don't count on it. While this game has a lot of positive hype surrounding it, it also carries a lot of negative hype as well. That, a still shaky economy, competition from other anticipated MMO's next year, and the fact that there is always a percentage of people that buy an MMO but aren't satisfied and quit after any launch, and you reduce the amount of subscribers there. Also factor in that there are many people who are content with their current game and unwilling to change, people who don't like MMO's, and people who don't like WoW or anything that resembles it, and the pool gets even more shallow.
My bet 1 year after launch: ~1.5 million boxes sold, 800-900k subs. If content grows, some tweaks to gameplay are made, and the game defines itself as an original title, subs could rise with ease in year two.
I don't totally discount GW2. I'm just skeptical an a F2P model MMO in the US. It will be difficult to give an accurate count on actively played subs as opposed to people that play for a month here and there. If they can make the F2P model work, maintain content, and keep the persistant world going; then that definitely puts GW2 in contention.
My issue is, seeing as I've played GW, is outside of the PvP aspect; you can "beat" the game rather quickly. Thus the replay value isn't as high as a true MMO. GW2 may be a different beast, but how much can a game without a subscription really do in terms of competition when someone can easily have both a sub-based game and GW2, going?
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
I couldn't even BEGIN to tell you how hard I just rolled my eyes reading the OP's title. Comon man, even I (previously a fanboi for several games) couldn't even stomach that title. It's almost as if everyone is screaming at their PC monitors for this game to be good, and for Bioware not to be yet another raper of someone's childhood.
My childhood thus far raped:
-Warhammer
-Warhammer 40k (it looks TERRIBLE, no mistakes learned from Warhammer Online)
-Diablo 1 + 2 (3 looks like it's been HEAVILY influenced by Warfract, cross genre atmosphere jumping = BAD)
-Star Trek (HAHAHHHHAhhaahhahahha........ =< )
-Not to mention EVERY good movie made prior to 2000.......effing remakes
Although I am optimistic since it's Bioware, they jumped into a lake that they were unfamiliar with. An MMORPG, "stylized" graphics and singleplayer gameplay does NOT equal.
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
QFT.
Will I play ToR? yes
Am I excited about ToR? yes
Do I think ToR is a money grab by Bioware to capitalize on MMOs being "it" right now? yes
Waiting: CU, WildStar, Destiny, Eternal Crusade
Playing: ESO,DCUO
Played: LotRO,RIFT,ToR,Warhammer, Runescape
While on the surface it may seem that TOR has adopted a few things from WOW, calling it a clone is going overboard.
Do i think TOR will be a success, yes i do. I also think GW2 and FF will also be as well. Time is running out on WOW's reign in the western markets. Now this doesn't mean that out of the new games coming out there is the so called WOW killer. That is just a dumb statement.
What i do see is that, the hardcore WOW players will never leave and coupled with the eastern market, will always have a strong community. I also see these new games having strong and populated communities and the mmo genre will finally balance itself out.
The more good games that come out means a win/win situation for us mmorpger's
It will be a good themepark MMO, polished and fun...and very similar to what we've all played before.
I'm not passing good / bad judgement on that, but it isn't going to innovate much. Fine by me, I can enjoy a quality (read: Bioware) themepark MMO for a time.
well for me these games have a very different feel than a game like EQ or other "classic" mmos
SWG felt very peculiar due to its strong orientation to player interaction... the game had something extremely fascinating imo, to camp in the middle of tat's desert with a buddy, enter in a cantina full of entertainers (no bots :P), to partecipate to an "elitish" auction/party or to look at a group of actors who perform some SW parody in the theatre of your town is an experience that no other mmos i tried had and that added another "pillar" (as bio will say) to the game
with my main i used to be an hunter for the first months, providing pelts and high end drops to armosmiths so not something that dissimilar to standard "mission running" of various mmos with the difference that the "quest giver" was a real player and not an npc quest giver (a good thing imo)
i had also an entertainer alt... and i was quite surprised to see how i enjoyed it, i entered in a band who used to perform in a small cantina and it was kinda strange we used to do training sessions for the "prime time" shows, and we had some cute dancers who used to flirt with the adventurers who stopped by... it was a very social gameplay, very different than my usual kill the big kimo, but fun and with a rewarding gaming experience, not only for us, but i guess for our "customers" too.
i'm not even going to touch the fantastic crafting system but anyway... SWG had its problems... the world felt a bit "empty" sometimes and the combat for sure was nothing to speak about, so for a player who is just looking to get uber loot and be "all powerfull" it had not much to offer... but for the player who like to interact and like immersion it had a lot to offer.
EVE is a very different beast, the interaction level is quite different than the one of SWG, both have strong player interaction focus but while SWG one was extremely "personal" the one in EVE is "massive" i will say...
in this game, regardless of what you do, you really have the feeling to be a part of a big "world", the game is essentially player driven and on top of that it focus a lot on competitive gaming... with its huge numbers it offers a kind of experience that no other mmo (at least ones i tried) can offer and is one of the few mmos where pvp have a meaning... be it the pwirate looking for carebears in low sec or the guy who fight in a mega alliance who want to conquer the space of an enemy alliance.
to sum up, the things about these game, are that they offers (or used to offer in case of swg) a different experience than the one of "classic" mmos, something very unique and that because they had a different focus on various game aspects... note that i'm not saying that these mmos are superior to other, i can say that i prefer this or that but in the end they are different products that will appeal to different people.
about the topic... well is too early to say how SWTOR will play, we have no idea about how various chars will play, nor how the encounters are crafted also i think that lot of people underestimate the companion thing, an idea that worries me a bit, but that indeed is a big twist in the "classic" mmo mechanic... so i think is a bit early to post any judgment about how the game will play
i actually think this will be a very good game for wow-players if they fix the combat to make it less glitchy and more visceral (they have almost a year to do this)
- exact same gameplay
- similar classes, just with sci-fi themes
- holy trinity gameplay like wow
- quests but done better
- instances but done better
- battlegrounds like wow
- same graphical style, but with a sci-fi theme
- big focus on loot progression like wow
- mob / quest grinding like wow
i think the addition of story will make it more appealing as it's just a better way of doing quests imo. i think anyone who isn't sick of wow yet will really enjoy this game if the combat gets up to par. besides it seems you can easily skip the dialogue like you can with wow quests for those who aren't interested in lore
There's a lot of indication that this is NOT the case.
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3180271#edit3180271
That's a Dev on the combat demo they did. There's also a lot of other reasons why one would think they aren't going with a WoW-like Holy Trinity. Personally, when I see how they use it, seems like they mean a watered-down trinity that isn't what a lot of people mean. In WoW, the tank takes most of the damage and that's his only real job, the healer spams heals (only job), and the damage dealer just deals damage (occasionally a CC is needed). That's what a lot of people mean by the Holy Trinity, super-specialization where you only do one thing. By all accounts, TOR doesn't work like that. Consulars in actual play won't spam heals, but will use many other abilities including melee attacks. Overall, it is a lot more comparable to D&D. Sure, you can call your Paladin a "tank" in D&D, but he's not doing the same thing as a tank in WoW, even if he takes point, similarly the healer doesn't just heal, and "damage dealers" don't just deal damage.
Overall, there is every reason to think combat roles will be more complex.
have you actually seen the group dynamic gameplay movie where the trooper tank holds aggro while the jedi consular heal spams him and the dps-specced knight and smuggler dps the boss and his mobs? the class specs even decide for example if the sith warrior wants to be a tank or a dpser (and probably same for his mirror class on republic).
sure you can spec hybrid but whos going to pick a hybrid for their raid when they can get a specialised player? that's always going to be best in mmo group situations.
Ah, you responded while I was editing my post. I including a Dev talking about that demo and how it was dumbed down.
Not only that, your Companions have a significant influence on the group make up too, up to the point that you don't even need to wait to bring a class with strong healing capabilities if you and your friends are more tank, cc or dps oriented or if your group is lacking in strong dps classes: you all just bring along the Companion types that reinforce where your team setup was weak or missing.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Hahaha, taking out the challenging part out of an MMO? Way to go. I suspect this is not a game for MMO gamers.
Way to go to draw your premature conclusions
I guess some people can already tell that the game won't be challenging, or know what every other MMO gamer likes.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Of course I can tell the game won't be challenging, if I don't struggle to find the right class and have a companion to replace it then imagine how the rest game will be like. And yes, I believe the game will target players from the "offline" genre rather than the pure MMO gamers. Someone can tell that even with the few information we have on the game.
Sure, mate, whatever you say
If you can tell that with the few information that is available, that this is a game not for MMO gamers, then it must be so. You might consider going into stocks, that's one hell of a talent.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Why does it matter?
Maybe Bioware doesnt want to target the "hardcore" MMO players.
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Noone said it matters or if this is bad thing, just pointing out the obvious
The game is gonna be WoW with lightsabers and a good storyline, but I'm still gonna play it.
I don't see how you can come to that at all? I'll be the one to say this here, MMO's are all the same. Grind, quest, loot , craft, PvP. I like MMO's but they are all the same. SOme mechanic's change, but other that than, they're all twins. There's millions of other MMO player's that arn't on this site. SWTOR will pull a lot of them. Most MMO player's hop to new MMO everytime they come out, just looking for something new.
It doesn't matter who Bioware target's, people will play it.
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if Star Wars: TOR isn't a WoW clone, WTF is???
again, the defense I hear is "but this game has a deep storyline, not a mindless grind" .... yeah, I get it. Your NPC's will talk to you and let you choose which pre-recorded part of the conversation comes next.
Look, after a week of these so called 'amazing' story line quests, you'll be bored, and feel like you're doing another mindless grind. Only this time, you're mindless grind will stop you in your tracks with cinematics and voice over work to remind you that you are just grinding. Luckily, you'll be able to queue up to some battleground to break the monotony. Good thing we're not all bored of queuing up for instances/battlegrounds, right?..... *yawn*
OP, really, what about this game makes you think it's more than a lightsaber-jedi-sith-skinned&voiced version of WoW?
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282730
That post is my full opinion on the matter.
And this is mine: differences with WoW or sortlike MMO's
People tagging everything that hits their eye a 'WoW clone' make me question their intelligence and their level of reasoning capability. But I guess some people need such crutches and easy classifications, lacking the ability to look further and deeper than they're worth.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
lol i love the wow clone bit is still going .. i should start calling every fps a doom clone or every rpg a neverwinter nights clone or every platformer a mario clone ... stfu people an mmo has its bounderies at to how you can create the ui and combat.. i wouldnt waist 150 million on creating an inovating game nobody will play instead of a familiar mmo feel that everyone can understand and play.. this wow clone stuff is so 2 years ago i figured all these teens would be grown up by now to see that mmo as a genre has a certain way of playing it. if you change the way you play an mmo is it really and mmo or is it just another action game with lots of people... fyi the first mmo was NWN and everquest copyed from it and so on and so on so everthing really is a nwn clone if your small minded and cant see that mmo genre has its boundries to how you can create and play it.