*sigh* I have no objection with perma death the people you should be speaking to are the devs who want my money which they will not get for creating a game with perma death in it. If Darkfall (which before it's launch as the savior to ffa ppv and not the sandbox I was lead to believe it would be) chooses to have perma death it wouldn't effect me anymore than the current build it uses because I just don't or won't give them my money but for a game to be successful especially one that costs alot of money to make it has to have a healthy enough population and unfortunately for those of you in favor of perma death, I would think you are not a big enough factor in it. Any game I spend months building up a character on cannot have perma death rules or I simply won't pay them. If a game I enjoyed switched to perma death rules likewise I would quit before my toon even died. It is simply not for me and no matter the length of the post it is still something I will not agree with,advocate or play.
Permadeath is like saying since I like chess I might like to try Russian roullette since they are both still games. Some of the issues I've seen raised have sparked some interest to see what that could be like but I would still not waste my time or money on it, as it stands I already hate the "metric grind" involved in mmo's as they are designed we spend months on end trying to get a sword that raises damage by one percent and permadeath is just taking that to the extreme. As mmo's are made now it seriously devalues our time and permadeath only to me takes us further down.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge. However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment. On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'. On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so).
I'm not sure the idea of permadeath existing just to give bragging rights to someone that can do a level grind without dying is what permadeath is about. Permadeath integrated fully into the game world implies a world based on persistent changes. Characters, both player controlled and npcs, die, and stay dead. This allows the "story" to evolve more naturally if the NPC are provided with some sort of dynamism and "memory". E.g. someone kills some NPCs father. The NPC's father will _forever_ be dead and the NPC's behavior, role in the world, etc must incorporate the new situation. Permadeath allows the world to actually have a lifecycle, and be more than a perpetual groundhog day.
*sigh* I have no objection with perma death the people you should be speaking to are the devs who want my money which they will not get for creating a game with perma death in it. If Darkfall (which before it's launch as the savior to ffa ppv and not the sandbox I was lead to believe it would be) chooses to have perma death it wouldn't effect me anymore than the current build it uses because I just don't or won't give them my money but for a game to be successful especially one that costs alot of money to make it has to have a healthy enough population and unfortunately for those of you in favor of perma death, I would think you are not a big enough factor in it. Any game I spend months building up a character on cannot have perma death rules or I simply won't pay them. If a game I enjoyed switched to perma death rules likewise I would quit before my toon even died. It is simply not for me and no matter the length of the post it is still something I will not agree with,advocate or play.
Of course, but no one is talking about taking any currently existing game and slapping permadeath on it. That would be ridiculous. The OP is more of an academic question. I believe the OP was trying to stimulate a discussion about _how_ permadeath would work in a game that intentionally incorporated it as a major game mechanic, vs just a "death penalty".
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge. However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment. On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'. On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so).
I'm not sure the idea of permadeath existing just to give bragging rights to someone that can do a level grind without dying is what permadeath is about. Permadeath integrated fully into the game world implies a world based on persistent changes. Characters, both player controlled and npcs, die, and stay dead. This allows the "story" to evolve more naturally if the NPC are provided with some sort of dynamism and "memory". E.g. someone kills some NPCs father. The NPC's father will _forever_ be dead and the NPC's behavior, role in the world, etc must incorporate the new situation. Permadeath allows the world to actually have a lifecycle, and be more than a perpetual groundhog day.
When people talk about 'permadeath' they generally talk about the death of player characters. NPCs are rather disposable and should one get 'permakilled' there will be hundreds new ones to replace it. Plus you can easily have 'NPC permadeath' without having 'PC permadeath' if you want a more dynamic game world.
*sigh* I have no objection with perma death the people you should be speaking to are the devs who want my money which they will not get for creating a game with perma death in it. If Darkfall (which before it's launch as the savior to ffa ppv and not the sandbox I was lead to believe it would be) chooses to have perma death it wouldn't effect me anymore than the current build it uses because I just don't or won't give them my money but for a game to be successful especially one that costs alot of money to make it has to have a healthy enough population and unfortunately for those of you in favor of perma death, I would think you are not a big enough factor in it. Any game I spend months building up a character on cannot have perma death rules or I simply won't pay them. If a game I enjoyed switched to perma death rules likewise I would quit before my toon even died. It is simply not for me and no matter the length of the post it is still something I will not agree with,advocate or play.
Of course, but no one is talking about taking any currently existing game and slapping permadeath on it. That would be ridiculous. The OP is more of an academic question. I believe the OP was trying to stimulate a discussion about _how_ permadeath would work in a game that intentionally incorporated it as a major game mechanic, vs just a "death penalty".
I noticed that after reading through some responses and apologize for doing what I usually speak against (responding to posts without reading the entire content) and I touched on that in an edit of my original post that I would certainly like to read up on how a game like that could work out but again in the end it is not something I would have any interest in playing only seeing how or if it would really work for those playing it. I have seen some great ideas bandied since realizing this isn't a rehash of the old debate especially the one about having a family name and taking up the causes of those characters. But I think these ideas are largely impossible, what if I can only play once a week while others get to play six days a week? Does the game take actual play time into account or is it real time based? Will I be forced to take a few months off only to come back and find out my toon died of old age? And if not how do I reconcile that my toon has been alive for some one thousand years while everyone else he knew is dead icluding his own children that he never had?
I do apologize again for making assumptions about what the context of the post was but I think it would still not change my opinion that this would be a very niche game that couldn't cost much money to make or maintain because there simply would not be many playing it.
Another problem I have with the idea of these changing worlds is I'm one who usually finds it loathe to have to start a new game to have to figure out who everyone is and where everything is at and I would certainy not like having to do that every month.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
*sigh* I have no objection with perma death the people you should be speaking to are the devs who want my money which they will not get for creating a game with perma death in it. If Darkfall (which before it's launch as the savior to ffa ppv and not the sandbox I was lead to believe it would be) chooses to have perma death it wouldn't effect me anymore than the current build it uses because I just don't or won't give them my money but for a game to be successful especially one that costs alot of money to make it has to have a healthy enough population and unfortunately for those of you in favor of perma death, I would think you are not a big enough factor in it. Any game I spend months building up a character on cannot have perma death rules or I simply won't pay them. If a game I enjoyed switched to perma death rules likewise I would quit before my toon even died. It is simply not for me and no matter the length of the post it is still something I will not agree with,advocate or play.
Of course, but no one is talking about taking any currently existing game and slapping permadeath on it. That would be ridiculous. The OP is more of an academic question. I believe the OP was trying to stimulate a discussion about _how_ permadeath would work in a game that intentionally incorporated it as a major game mechanic, vs just a "death penalty".
That's not what I got from the OP. He was talking about permadeath as some artform and how small communities of MUD roleplayers made it work.
I can definetly see permadeath as a roleplaying mechanism but that is best done on a voluntary basis since it allows one to work around the many problems it generates.
If you want permadeath to be more than just a skill test then you have to figure out what more it can give to players in terms of actual gameplay. The reason it is dismissed by so many people is that it does not really add anything to gameplay except a feeling of 'leetness'.
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge. However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment. On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'. On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so).
Only pathetic losers run around bragging about imaginary accomplishments. Stop waving your dick around and just play the goddamn game.
I noticed that after reading through some responses and apologize for doing what I usually speak against (responding to posts without reading the entire content) and I touched on that in an edit of my original post that I would certainly like to read up on how a game like that could work out but again in the end it is not something I would have any interest in playing only seeing how or if it would really work for those playing it. I have seen some great ideas bandied since realizing this isn't a rehash of the old debate especially the one about having a family name and taking up the causes of those characters. But I think these ideas are largely impossible, what if I can only play once a week while others get to play six days a week? Does the game take actual play time into account or is it real time based? Will I be forced to take a few months off only to come back and find out my toon died of old age? And if not how do I reconcile that my toon has been alive for some one thousand years while everyone else he knew is dead icluding his own children that he never had?
I do apologize again for making assumptions about what the context of the post was but I think it would still not change my opinion that this would be a very niche game that couldn't cost much money to make or maintain because there simply would not be many playing it.
Another problem I have with the idea of these changing worlds is I'm one who usually finds it loathe to have to start a new game to have to figure out who everyone is and where everything is at and I would certainy not like having to do that every month.
Lots of good questions. I would imagine that a game with a more involved, changing world, would "require" players to be more involved, and may not support the style of play you prefer. Or maybe characters never "log out". Of course the player logs out, but does that also mean the character has to fade away until the player logs back in? Who knows.
I wouldn't argue with the idea that such a game would be a "niche" game. It would undoubtably be entirely different than anything currently in existence, and more than likely would not appeal to the masses.
If you want permadeath to be more than just a skill test then you have to figure out what more it can give to players in terms of actual gameplay. The reason it is dismissed by so many people is that it does not really add anything to gameplay except a feeling of 'leetness'.
But then what is "gameplay"? I agree that permadeath is not compatible with the gameplay of today's games, but is the gameplay of today the one-true-definition of gameplay? Must all games be primarily focused on hack/slash cardboard mob bashing? What if the "gameplay" is participating in the evolution of a virtual world, and part of that involves a natural end-of-life for all living things in the world? Yes that has nothing to do with today's games, but would it be gameplay?
I was thinking of permadeath this morning and, to keep things short(er), the idea that I came to was:
1.) One class with full permadeath. This class is the most powerful class in the game, and is balanced by the fact that a single death at any time takes you back to character creation. I mulled over how to handle lag and disconnects, but didn't come to a conclusion that I felt happy with... but I didn't put much thought into it, either.
2.) An "off spring" based character. Once they die, their "off spring" inherits some of their abilities, or a knack for their family's strongest skills and thus allowing those skills to increase at twice the speed. They would also leave a "will" to their "off spring" so that the new character inherits a certain percentage of the previous character's wealth and / or items, with the rest taken for taxes or whatever. This character would need to tend to their "off spring" (or the funds for their "off spring") in some form or another.
3.) A ghost-based, semi-permadeath class. With this class, the death of the character spawns the ghost at a random location in the world. The distance from the character's body could be determined by averaging the amount of time that the player has spent logged-in each session over the past week. Give the ghost a time limit to get back to the character's body, with a "spirit realm" full of monsters (think WoW's ghost, except dangerous) and what have yous. The physical body can be eaten by wandering animals & mobs, but could also be burried by other players; if burried, this would create a mini-game for the ghost once they return to the body. The mini-game is used to determine if the character is able to dig themselves out of their grave. If unsuccessful then the character remains in ghost form and can progress from there, but the destruction of the ghost would be the "Final Death" and it's back to character creation.
4.) Standard MMORPG characters that serve as the crafters of the world. The characters of these players do not deal with the daily dangers faced by the other classes and they don't need to stress over the potential loss of their character. These players could engage in "corporate espionage" as a form of "pvp" or as a form of "danger", but they would lose some assets and not their character; this "dangerous" game would be optional. At the highest (and thus most difficult) levels the death of these characters could happen by way of other #4 players hiring assassins to perform a "hit" on their opponents, but such a hit would only remove the character from the world temporarily (the length of which could depend on the level of the assassin, but probably wouldn't be longer than a day).
All of the above exist in the same game world, thus the game has 5 classes (counting the ghost) with a few potential sub-classes ("alternate advancement") that exist for #4.
Points:
#1 could be hunted by the other players to further balance their strength. Think dragons in the unfortunately dead Trials of Ascension.
#4 could avoid the all of the PvP action, but the trade is that they would not amass the greatest wealth and political power in the game world.
All but #1 could retire to become characters of group #4, giving up the dangerous life to become rich barons, CEOs, dukes, or whatever.
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
That's true, and on the surface it seems like the more logical way to do it.
I've heard of players in DDO who have banded together and formed permadeath guilds which of course adopt a different death penalty than the rest of the game.
But that game is more about how one deals with instanced encounters as opposed to a more open mmo world.
Though players can do this in a more open mmo world, it might become a hindrance when interacting with the rest of the world.
Friend's lists aside, unless one has a devoted group to always play with, the rest of the game world will eventually leave you behind. In a pvp game you might be gimping yourself as you delete your characters and all the other players continue to level up.
In essence the entire game is not playing by the same rules. I think part of the fun for perma death players (or any player of any game) is that everyone is following the same rule set.
As far as permadeath goes, I don't think it works for some people for the simple reason that it is essentialy a different game.
Permadeath people seem to think about their characters as units. Much like a chess player doesn't lament losing a piece, a perma death player's goal is to get a unit as far as he/she can get it. It dies? No biggie, "game over" and time to put in another quarter for another game.
But other players look at their characters as a sort of companion or extension of themselves and take great pride growing the character over the years. They are sort of two different games on the same game board.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
That's true, and on the surface it seems like the more logical way to do it.
I've heard of players in DDO who have banded together and formed permadeath guilds which of course adopt a different death penalty than the rest of the game.
But that game is more about how one deals with instanced encounters as opposed to a more open mmo world.
Though players can do this in a more open mmo world, it might become a hindrance when interacting with the rest of the world.
Friend's lists aside, unless one has a devoted group to always play with, the rest of the game world will eventually leave you behind. In a pvp game you might be gimping yourself as you delete your characters and all the other players continue to level up.
In essence the entire game is not playing by the same rules. I think part of the fun for perma death players (or any player of any game) is that everyone is following the same rule set.
As far as permadeath goes, I don't think it works for some people for the simple reason that it is essentialy a different game.
Permadeath people seem to think about their characters as units. Much like a chess player doesn't lament losing a piece, a perma death player's goal is to get a unit as far as he/she can get it. It dies? No biggie, "game over" and time to put in another quarter for another game.
But other players look at their characters as a sort of companion or extension of themselves and take great pride growing the character over the years. They are sort of two different games on the same game board.
But the question remains: How long can one repeat the same low lvl dungeons over and over without going insane?
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge. However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment. On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'. On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so).
Only pathetic losers run around bragging about imaginary accomplishments. Stop waving your dick around and just play the goddamn game.
This.
Its a videogame, your not writing an award winning novel, there is no accomplishment here, anymore thn there is in clue or monopoly.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
That's true, and on the surface it seems like the more logical way to do it.
I've heard of players in DDO who have banded together and formed permadeath guilds which of course adopt a different death penalty than the rest of the game.
But that game is more about how one deals with instanced encounters as opposed to a more open mmo world.
Though players can do this in a more open mmo world, it might become a hindrance when interacting with the rest of the world.
Friend's lists aside, unless one has a devoted group to always play with, the rest of the game world will eventually leave you behind. In a pvp game you might be gimping yourself as you delete your characters and all the other players continue to level up.
In essence the entire game is not playing by the same rules. I think part of the fun for perma death players (or any player of any game) is that everyone is following the same rule set.
As far as permadeath goes, I don't think it works for some people for the simple reason that it is essentialy a different game.
Permadeath people seem to think about their characters as units. Much like a chess player doesn't lament losing a piece, a perma death player's goal is to get a unit as far as he/she can get it. It dies? No biggie, "game over" and time to put in another quarter for another game.
But other players look at their characters as a sort of companion or extension of themselves and take great pride growing the character over the years. They are sort of two different games on the same game board.
But the question remains: How long can one repeat the same low lvl dungeons over and over without going insane?
That's something I've considered when thinking about the whole permadeath concept.
I think that, again, the answer lies with the permadeath people. It might not be an issue because they are thinking about the experience in a different way.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I noticed that after reading through some responses and apologize for doing what I usually speak against (responding to posts without reading the entire content) and I touched on that in an edit of my original post that I would certainly like to read up on how a game like that could work out but again in the end it is not something I would have any interest in playing only seeing how or if it would really work for those playing it. I have seen some great ideas bandied since realizing this isn't a rehash of the old debate especially the one about having a family name and taking up the causes of those characters. But I think these ideas are largely impossible, what if I can only play once a week while others get to play six days a week? Does the game take actual play time into account or is it real time based? Will I be forced to take a few months off only to come back and find out my toon died of old age? And if not how do I reconcile that my toon has been alive for some one thousand years while everyone else he knew is dead icluding his own children that he never had?
I do apologize again for making assumptions about what the context of the post was but I think it would still not change my opinion that this would be a very niche game that couldn't cost much money to make or maintain because there simply would not be many playing it.
Another problem I have with the idea of these changing worlds is I'm one who usually finds it loathe to have to start a new game to have to figure out who everyone is and where everything is at and I would certainy not like having to do that every month.
Lots of good questions. I would imagine that a game with a more involved, changing world, would "require" players to be more involved, and may not support the style of play you prefer. Or maybe characters never "log out". Of course the player logs out, but does that also mean the character has to fade away until the player logs back in? Who knows.
I wouldn't argue with the idea that such a game would be a "niche" game. It would undoubtably be entirely different than anything currently in existence, and more than likely would not appeal to the masses.
It is though as you said pretty intruiging to ponder. I actually love posts like this one when the community can get there creative juices flowing and get a dialogue going would be interesting to see what kind of things one could do with a game where the player logged out but the character didn't.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge. However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment. On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'. On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so).
Only pathetic losers run around bragging about imaginary accomplishments. Stop waving your dick around and just play the goddamn game.
This.
Its a videogame, your not writing an award winning novel, there is no accomplishment here, anymore thn there is in clue or monopoly.
Yup. I am so sick and tired of all the pathetic losers who are trying to live vicariously through a video game and thinking everyone else ought to ride them around on their shoulders because they killed a bunch of pixels with an animated sword. If that's where they get their jollies, fine. Just don't expect any accolades from me, or anyone else for that matter, because you're living in your mother's basement. Come on back when you cure cancer or something. Until then, color me not impressed.
Devs would be impressed about how big the permadeath community are.
The 1st company with the balls to make a permadeath mmo will get the big prize.
Its not difficult to make one, just take some tex-based examples.
The 1st company to make a permadeath mmo will be teh first and last one to do so, since no other studios gonna wanna do one after that company crashes and burns.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling" Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I had a level 99 Barb in Diablo 2 hardcore mode, and a level 84 sorc. The only problem I didn't like about it was in act 4, the stupid death mages casted iron maiden, 1 hit kill against my whirlwind barb but I just used dual throw for that act hehe.
Comments
No, the OP does _not_ have anything to do with should/should not permadeath be implemented. It's about whether it _could_ and how it would work.
Again, seriously? This the third "lolwut, delete your character. ha ha permadeath" response. Did you read the OP?
*sigh* I have no objection with perma death the people you should be speaking to are the devs who want my money which they will not get for creating a game with perma death in it. If Darkfall (which before it's launch as the savior to ffa ppv and not the sandbox I was lead to believe it would be) chooses to have perma death it wouldn't effect me anymore than the current build it uses because I just don't or won't give them my money but for a game to be successful especially one that costs alot of money to make it has to have a healthy enough population and unfortunately for those of you in favor of perma death, I would think you are not a big enough factor in it. Any game I spend months building up a character on cannot have perma death rules or I simply won't pay them. If a game I enjoyed switched to perma death rules likewise I would quit before my toon even died. It is simply not for me and no matter the length of the post it is still something I will not agree with,advocate or play.
Permadeath is like saying since I like chess I might like to try Russian roullette since they are both still games. Some of the issues I've seen raised have sparked some interest to see what that could be like but I would still not waste my time or money on it, as it stands I already hate the "metric grind" involved in mmo's as they are designed we spend months on end trying to get a sword that raises damage by one percent and permadeath is just taking that to the extreme. As mmo's are made now it seriously devalues our time and permadeath only to me takes us further down.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
I'm not sure the idea of permadeath existing just to give bragging rights to someone that can do a level grind without dying is what permadeath is about. Permadeath integrated fully into the game world implies a world based on persistent changes. Characters, both player controlled and npcs, die, and stay dead. This allows the "story" to evolve more naturally if the NPC are provided with some sort of dynamism and "memory". E.g. someone kills some NPCs father. The NPC's father will _forever_ be dead and the NPC's behavior, role in the world, etc must incorporate the new situation. Permadeath allows the world to actually have a lifecycle, and be more than a perpetual groundhog day.
Of course, but no one is talking about taking any currently existing game and slapping permadeath on it. That would be ridiculous. The OP is more of an academic question. I believe the OP was trying to stimulate a discussion about _how_ permadeath would work in a game that intentionally incorporated it as a major game mechanic, vs just a "death penalty".
When people talk about 'permadeath' they generally talk about the death of player characters. NPCs are rather disposable and should one get 'permakilled' there will be hundreds new ones to replace it. Plus you can easily have 'NPC permadeath' without having 'PC permadeath' if you want a more dynamic game world.
I noticed that after reading through some responses and apologize for doing what I usually speak against (responding to posts without reading the entire content) and I touched on that in an edit of my original post that I would certainly like to read up on how a game like that could work out but again in the end it is not something I would have any interest in playing only seeing how or if it would really work for those playing it. I have seen some great ideas bandied since realizing this isn't a rehash of the old debate especially the one about having a family name and taking up the causes of those characters. But I think these ideas are largely impossible, what if I can only play once a week while others get to play six days a week? Does the game take actual play time into account or is it real time based? Will I be forced to take a few months off only to come back and find out my toon died of old age? And if not how do I reconcile that my toon has been alive for some one thousand years while everyone else he knew is dead icluding his own children that he never had?
I do apologize again for making assumptions about what the context of the post was but I think it would still not change my opinion that this would be a very niche game that couldn't cost much money to make or maintain because there simply would not be many playing it.
Another problem I have with the idea of these changing worlds is I'm one who usually finds it loathe to have to start a new game to have to figure out who everyone is and where everything is at and I would certainy not like having to do that every month.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
That's not what I got from the OP. He was talking about permadeath as some artform and how small communities of MUD roleplayers made it work.
I can definetly see permadeath as a roleplaying mechanism but that is best done on a voluntary basis since it allows one to work around the many problems it generates.
If you want permadeath to be more than just a skill test then you have to figure out what more it can give to players in terms of actual gameplay. The reason it is dismissed by so many people is that it does not really add anything to gameplay except a feeling of 'leetness'.
Only pathetic losers run around bragging about imaginary accomplishments. Stop waving your dick around and just play the goddamn game.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Lots of good questions. I would imagine that a game with a more involved, changing world, would "require" players to be more involved, and may not support the style of play you prefer. Or maybe characters never "log out". Of course the player logs out, but does that also mean the character has to fade away until the player logs back in? Who knows.
I wouldn't argue with the idea that such a game would be a "niche" game. It would undoubtably be entirely different than anything currently in existence, and more than likely would not appeal to the masses.
waiumad?
But then what is "gameplay"? I agree that permadeath is not compatible with the gameplay of today's games, but is the gameplay of today the one-true-definition of gameplay? Must all games be primarily focused on hack/slash cardboard mob bashing? What if the "gameplay" is participating in the evolution of a virtual world, and part of that involves a natural end-of-life for all living things in the world? Yes that has nothing to do with today's games, but would it be gameplay?
I was thinking of permadeath this morning and, to keep things short(er), the idea that I came to was:
1.) One class with full permadeath. This class is the most powerful class in the game, and is balanced by the fact that a single death at any time takes you back to character creation. I mulled over how to handle lag and disconnects, but didn't come to a conclusion that I felt happy with... but I didn't put much thought into it, either.
2.) An "off spring" based character. Once they die, their "off spring" inherits some of their abilities, or a knack for their family's strongest skills and thus allowing those skills to increase at twice the speed. They would also leave a "will" to their "off spring" so that the new character inherits a certain percentage of the previous character's wealth and / or items, with the rest taken for taxes or whatever. This character would need to tend to their "off spring" (or the funds for their "off spring") in some form or another.
3.) A ghost-based, semi-permadeath class. With this class, the death of the character spawns the ghost at a random location in the world. The distance from the character's body could be determined by averaging the amount of time that the player has spent logged-in each session over the past week. Give the ghost a time limit to get back to the character's body, with a "spirit realm" full of monsters (think WoW's ghost, except dangerous) and what have yous. The physical body can be eaten by wandering animals & mobs, but could also be burried by other players; if burried, this would create a mini-game for the ghost once they return to the body. The mini-game is used to determine if the character is able to dig themselves out of their grave. If unsuccessful then the character remains in ghost form and can progress from there, but the destruction of the ghost would be the "Final Death" and it's back to character creation.
4.) Standard MMORPG characters that serve as the crafters of the world. The characters of these players do not deal with the daily dangers faced by the other classes and they don't need to stress over the potential loss of their character. These players could engage in "corporate espionage" as a form of "pvp" or as a form of "danger", but they would lose some assets and not their character; this "dangerous" game would be optional. At the highest (and thus most difficult) levels the death of these characters could happen by way of other #4 players hiring assassins to perform a "hit" on their opponents, but such a hit would only remove the character from the world temporarily (the length of which could depend on the level of the assassin, but probably wouldn't be longer than a day).
All of the above exist in the same game world, thus the game has 5 classes (counting the ghost) with a few potential sub-classes ("alternate advancement") that exist for #4.
Points:
#1 could be hunted by the other players to further balance their strength. Think dragons in the unfortunately dead Trials of Ascension.
#4 could avoid the all of the PvP action, but the trade is that they would not amass the greatest wealth and political power in the game world.
All but #1 could retire to become characters of group #4, giving up the dangerous life to become rich barons, CEOs, dukes, or whatever.
That's true, and on the surface it seems like the more logical way to do it.
I've heard of players in DDO who have banded together and formed permadeath guilds which of course adopt a different death penalty than the rest of the game.
But that game is more about how one deals with instanced encounters as opposed to a more open mmo world.
Though players can do this in a more open mmo world, it might become a hindrance when interacting with the rest of the world.
Friend's lists aside, unless one has a devoted group to always play with, the rest of the game world will eventually leave you behind. In a pvp game you might be gimping yourself as you delete your characters and all the other players continue to level up.
In essence the entire game is not playing by the same rules. I think part of the fun for perma death players (or any player of any game) is that everyone is following the same rule set.
As far as permadeath goes, I don't think it works for some people for the simple reason that it is essentialy a different game.
Permadeath people seem to think about their characters as units. Much like a chess player doesn't lament losing a piece, a perma death player's goal is to get a unit as far as he/she can get it. It dies? No biggie, "game over" and time to put in another quarter for another game.
But other players look at their characters as a sort of companion or extension of themselves and take great pride growing the character over the years. They are sort of two different games on the same game board.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
But the question remains: How long can one repeat the same low lvl dungeons over and over without going insane?
Meh, I think the simple anwser to this would be to have two characters.
When one dies he is locked for the rest of the day and you have to play the second.
If he dies then he is also locked.
Its a fair system without people having to give up all their items while still punshing them.
Its like in a huge PvP war when a person dies they cannot respawn and prolong the war.
This.
Its a videogame, your not writing an award winning novel, there is no accomplishment here, anymore thn there is in clue or monopoly.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
That's something I've considered when thinking about the whole permadeath concept.
I think that, again, the answer lies with the permadeath people. It might not be an issue because they are thinking about the experience in a different way.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It is though as you said pretty intruiging to ponder. I actually love posts like this one when the community can get there creative juices flowing and get a dialogue going would be interesting to see what kind of things one could do with a game where the player logged out but the character didn't.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Devs would be impressed about how big the permadeath community are.
The 1st company with the balls to make a permadeath mmo will get the big prize.
Its not difficult to make one, just take some tex-based examples.
Clan Hispania
Yup. I am so sick and tired of all the pathetic losers who are trying to live vicariously through a video game and thinking everyone else ought to ride them around on their shoulders because they killed a bunch of pixels with an animated sword. If that's where they get their jollies, fine. Just don't expect any accolades from me, or anyone else for that matter, because you're living in your mother's basement. Come on back when you cure cancer or something. Until then, color me not impressed.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Prove it's large. Go ahead. Come up with actual evidence for your claim or stop making it.
To do otherwise is dishonest.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Oh yes, that will become one of my signatures.
The 1st company to make a permadeath mmo will be teh first and last one to do so, since no other studios gonna wanna do one after that company crashes and burns.
Apparently stating the truth in my sig is "trolling"
Sig typo fixed thanks to an observant stragen001.
I had a level 99 Barb in Diablo 2 hardcore mode, and a level 84 sorc. The only problem I didn't like about it was in act 4, the stupid death mages casted iron maiden, 1 hit kill against my whirlwind barb
but I just used dual throw for that act hehe.