You have volunteerely permadeath in every game that you play just delete your avatar after you died.
No?
Then shut the fuck up please.
and people he kills will delete their chars also?
manners please
What difference does that make? You have no right whatsoever to force anyone else to play the game your way, period. If you want permadeath, kill your own character. If you have to have everyone else play like you do, you're a control freak.
Get over it.
What i meant and you missed is, obviously, deleting your own character when killed and permadeath is not the same thing. Its about challenge and bragging; if you didnt know that, well, welcome to mmos. Actually welcome to any competitive activity.
No ones forcing you or anyone else to play their way; OPs questioning why there isnt a permadeath mmo and proposing that there can be based on his mud experience. (which i disagree)
You have volunteerely permadeath in every game that you play just delete your avatar after you died.
No?
Then shut the fuck up please.
and people he kills will delete their chars also?
manners please
Of course they will if they subscribe to the same 'permadeath' playstyle as he does. Or are you suggesting that he would want to 'permakill' characters belonging to players who do not want to play by 'permadeath rules'? The would be immoral.
nope. i meant permadeath and deleting your char is not the same thing (since almost every mmo out there assumes you'll die eventually if not frequently and a challenge not realized by others is not really a challenge) so the suggestion killing your char is invalid.
edit.
bad Torik, you already said (and better worded) what i meant. :P
Originally posted by Torik
That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge. However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment. On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'. On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so).
What amazes me is that in the OP I described a whole class of real MMOs which existed and in which permadeath was the rule - and they thrived. Yet nearly every reply tiresomely states that permadeath would never work, ignoring the fact that it already has (in fact, many times). I further analyzed why they fell out of favor, and argued why and how they could be brought back - yet not a single response addresses that core argument. Me thinks most readers do not have the patience for reading...but perhaps I doth protest too much.
The OP was incredibly long, you can't blame people for scanning it.
Not all MUDS were perma-death, in fact most weren't.
You state that permadeath has in fact worked many times. Besides from hard-core MUDs 10 years ago, can you state some examples please? I think you'll find that even 10 years ago it was a niche market. MMO's have moved on since then.
Whereas Jimmy Smith can code and run a MUD from home, these days millions of dollars are invested in making AAA MMO's and they need to have mass appeal. The question is, can you find hundreds of thousands or even millions of people that agree that perma-death is a good idea? I doubt it, yet those are the figures that companies judge "success" from these days.
On top of that, the community has changed. Whereas during MUD times even your worst enemy might help you out (even if it was so he could kill you later), people in WOW rage-quit after they die once in a group (with almost NO death-penalties).
I agree with you that people do invest more in their characters the harsher the penalty for death is, and it can lead to character-driven content like politics etc.
When it comes down to it though, dying isn't fun, and there are way too many uncontrollable factors that might mean your hundreds of hours of effort wiped out in a moment.
I'm not saying perma-death is a bad idea, or that it's not implementable. I'm just saying that I didn't play perma-death MUD's back when I was MUDing for the exact same reason I wouldn't play one now...the risk vs reward just isn't worth it to me.
Its funny how so many claim they have played from beginning internet(same with playing mmo's seems almost all played uo i wonder if this true:P) but when you ask to back it up they can't and most info from old days seems mostly general knowledge everybody can google.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
That works for the self-motivated people who are doing it for the challenge. However, a voluntary permadeath system cannot be officially verified and as such people cannot brag about their accomplishment. On a permadeath server, someone with a high level character shows a high level of discipline and/or skill and thus can be clearly seen as a 'winner'. On a normal server, achieving that level without dying once is just as big an achievement (or maybe even bigger) but noone will notice this and any claims of that nature cannot be verified (ie anyone can claim to have done so).
Only pathetic losers run around bragging about imaginary accomplishments. Stop waving your dick around and just play the goddamn game.
define imaginary. Stop telling people what to do.
This.
Its a videogame, your not writing an award winning novel, there is no accomplishment here, anymore thn there is in clue or monopoly.
there is accomplishment, it doesnt matter in what form or where. Whenever there is a challenge there is accomplishment. Sometimes the prize is just a feeling, sometimes 1m$ reward, sometimes your initials in a old game machines hall of fame. Just because you have different tastes and dont see/take the challenge doesnt mean its not there.
Yup. I am so sick and tired of all the pathetic losers who are trying to live vicariously through a video game and thinking everyone else ought to ride them around on their shoulders because they killed a bunch of pixels with an animated sword.
no ones asking you to carry them, why do you care how anyone plays their game? If they are too serious for your taste, put them on ignore.
If that's where they get their jollies, fine. Just don't expect any accolades from me, or anyone else for that matter, because you're living in your mother's basement.
Noones expecting anything from you, why are you mad? he's not trying to change your way of life, just proposing a game with different setting, rules.
Come on back when you cure cancer or something. Until then, color me not impressed.
permadeath in an mmo is pretty dumb. It would kill any kind of PVP, people would not take any risks in the game, and most people would not even play that game. Maybe a few die hards like yourself.
Lol cephus404 you have some serieus problems i see as many who reply to this permadeath topic why?
If people wanne play such games why your so upset then?
Let them.
This kind of games dont threaten your oh so carebear themepark games in anyway, no need to feel threaten by them ok:)
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009..... In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
Permadeath surely is possible DEPENDING on the type of world set (Sure, with the type of chicken-MMO's out there at this date, where the majority are level based it wouldnt really fit it..)
It just depends on what type of rules the MMO have, and the advancement it offers for the players.
We have alot of working semi-death models working already in the market (lets take the still persistent MMO Tibia and its enforced pvp servers as an example! You gain experience from killing another player, they often drop tons of their equiped gear etc.)
"I want to sit with my 4 hours a day and the closest thing I want to danger is having a repair bill if I die.." - not a chance.
IF there would be a well balanced, well made game dropping out in the local store/online shop, that hosted penalized hard death/permadeath I would surely try it out!
I had a level 99 Barb in Diablo 2 hardcore mode, and a level 84 sorc. The only problem I didn't like about it was in act 4, the stupid death mages casted iron maiden, 1 hit kill against my whirlwind barb but I just used dual throw for that act hehe.
Hehe a bugger wasnt it?
Cant remember what patch it was that changed the barbarians LEAP ATTACK into close melee, but the skill actually counted as a ranged attack before the bastards coded it and "lucky" me found out while doing a sanctum run >.< *doh*
If you want permadeath. Delete your character after you die then roll a new one. There you go instant permadeath and anyone can do it.
That's true, and on the surface it seems like the more logical way to do it.
I've heard of players in DDO who have banded together and formed permadeath guilds which of course adopt a different death penalty than the rest of the game.
But that game is more about how one deals with instanced encounters as opposed to a more open mmo world.
Though players can do this in a more open mmo world, it might become a hindrance when interacting with the rest of the world.
Friend's lists aside, unless one has a devoted group to always play with, the rest of the game world will eventually leave you behind. In a pvp game you might be gimping yourself as you delete your characters and all the other players continue to level up.
In essence the entire game is not playing by the same rules. I think part of the fun for perma death players (or any player of any game) is that everyone is following the same rule set.
As far as permadeath goes, I don't think it works for some people for the simple reason that it is essentialy a different game.
Permadeath people seem to think about their characters as units. Much like a chess player doesn't lament losing a piece, a perma death player's goal is to get a unit as far as he/she can get it. It dies? No biggie, "game over" and time to put in another quarter for another game.
But other players look at their characters as a sort of companion or extension of themselves and take great pride growing the character over the years. They are sort of two different games on the same game board.
But the question remains: How long can one repeat the same low lvl dungeons over and over without going insane?
The problem is: level based content
(instead of an open world, with.. lets say %-based skills/stats instead, that way you can always go wherever you want.. the downside not being a 100% killer on the prefered place to go crazy with your new spell/weapon.)
^ ya but it getsmore complicated when something cost nothing to make and maintain now require 50 million to make and 2 million to maintain per month.
You need to look at the scale of things. An individual like you or me can get a mud server up and running in a month. It gets alot more complicated when this much is invovled in making an MMO. It's really more of a business decision than game design desicion.
Aswell as a grafical one? Designing/coding aint all that far away from eachother as you would like to think.
The difference is in the time spent expanding the "small table" youve made.
Sure, I agree that its more work with having "pwetty gwafiks" implented... perfect example of that would be AION or say Age of Conan as examples of "pretties" gone down on subs/users/models gone wrong.
Permanent death in an mmo will never happen. The idea alone is rediculous. Leave permanent death where it belongs - as a hardcore option in action RPG hack n slash games.
Lol cephus404 you have some serieus problems i see as many who reply to this permadeath topic why?
If people wanne play such games why your so upset then?
Let them.
This kind of games dont threaten your oh so carebear themepark games in anyway, no need to feel threaten by them ok:)
I couldn't stop them, I just point out that the possibility of convincing an MMO developer to make such a game is essentially nil, there just aren't enough people who want such a game to make it financially viable. I tell the same thing to people who want forced-grouping games, open-world FFA PvP games, etc. These are all tiny little niche games that just don't have the financial backing necessary to be made, especially by AAA developers. I'm just asking that people pretend to be realistic. Sure, you might wish such a game existed and you're welcome to do so, but it's just not going to happen in the real world.
Permanent death in an mmo will never happen. The idea alone is rediculous. Leave permanent death where it belongs - as a hardcore option in action RPG hack n slash games.
Why will permadeath never happen?
Why is the idea ridiculous?
Why does permadeath belong as an option in action RPC hack n slash games (isn't that what all current games are?)
How can permadeath belong as an option if the idea is rediculous and would never happen?
Deleted message because Mods will likely get upset for calling another troll stupid.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii. --In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses. --The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence! --CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Permadeath worked in MUDs because not that many people played MUDs. They weren't as popular a medium as graphical games and MMORPGs. In other words, MUDs appealed to a certain group of people. Probably because they were hardcore roleplayers, who by their very nature embraced permadeath.
Normal games appeal to a much broader audience, for whom the concept of permadeath is not appealing because most do not roleplay and just play these games for fun.
That is why, no matter how hard you try, you'll never have a successful permadeath model in MMORPGs.
Simple. It would be a customer service nightmare for developers.
The second someone died to a lag spike, or a glitch, or a bugged encounter, or whatever, they'd immediately start bleating and whining to the CS department, demanding their character be revived and reinstated because they spent X hours playing and have Y armor and Z weapons and it's not fair that they died through no fault of their own.
There's also the fact that some of the people who play these games are just assholes that get off on causing others misery. Imagine if something like this happened in a permadeath game:
Throw permadeath into the mix of an incident like that, and you'd have folks quitting a game in droves. No developer wants to deal with that kind of crap, given how much money these games cost to develop and maintain. They want to attract customers, not keep them away.
The biggst issue with perma-death is content. At the present time ALL mmorpgs have limited content (yes even WOW). The content is not dynamic and changing. So If you find your character killed you will need to basically follow an identical path back up. This in turn increases the "punishement" for dieing. This punishments severity increases experditantly the higher the character is in level.
For example a character dies lvl 10 cost to you approx 10 - 15 hours of game play (rough estimate bo hard data for this). A level 50 character dies cost to you approx 40 days of game play ( for many people and systems this vaue can be a LOT higher). Now, the first time you die its annoying but hey you can take it and perhaps it will be a bit faster no to advance afterall you know the best spots right. The 2nd and third time annoying but still liveable. But after the third time your going to seriously think about scrapping the whole idea after all its boring now everythingd been done multiple times you find yourself less motivated to bother and eventially just cancel your subscription and go elsewhere.
Yes a soloution is to be more careful better skilled etc etc. BUT, PvP well this is big nasty element for a perma death after all the slightest error in balancing classes and youv'e got a lynch mob on your hands. you think players are bad now about balance issues wait till perma-death comes in and the issues have REAL consequences. Link Deaths and other connectivity issues such as LAG, well do you as a developer say sod em and let em die or do you put in a mechanic that LD people are immune as soon as they go LD (because if you do as soon as people feel they are losing a fight the first thing they would do is turn off their computer ....
So if you want perma-death heres whats needed :-
1) Dynamic world systen where every new start is a completely different adventure
2) Classes perfectly balanced so no class is better or worse than any other
3) Link death and LAG prevented
Of course there are soloutions :-
1) Link perma death with account deletion when your character dies cancel sub and go buy a new different game
2) Make the game so there is only ONE class
3) Have a several server farms on every landmass and set the system requirements to twice needed spec to ensure only the best specs play.
I remember an instance on the news where some guy's Everquest character somehow was deleted and he was so upset, he actually committed suicide. I fear something like this, actually. Some bloke who is too obsessed puts in a week of work nonstop, gets no sleep, then dies to something and just snaps and kills himself or someone else. It has happened for less.
On the flip side, I think Eve has a fantastic character death system. You keep clones of yourself, which can be updated at ports. If you die, you take on the new clone and lose your destroyed ship and any new skills you had obtained since the creation of the new clone. Pirates in game often use this threat as an excuse to get more money out of people.
I also contemplated a system where if you died, your old character was reincarnated into a new character, who received bonuses to his skills based on your previous character's skills, but would otherwise be a new character and require to be made in the character creator.
Playing: Heroes of Three Kingdoms Played: WoW, DDO, Second Life, Diablo II, Tried free trial: LoTR, Fallen Earth, EvE, Champions Online,
1. It won't happen while the net is at it is. You often see people getting linkdead, computers crash and net go down, not to mention lag. As long as things are like that it is impossible. You could make a game that is played in LAN like that, since in lan lag is rare and you can always get a GM/technician fast to check what has happened and rez you if it was a technical issue.
I could see a lan place who has a permanent world with permadeath, that would work great but MMOs on the net isn't possible right now.
2. It is not. Permadeath works well in pen and paper RPGs and you can make a cool permadeath game. The problem is the technical issues I mentioned above.
I love a perma death MMO with a lot of roleplaying, crafting and other pen and paper things in if it is well made. But It is 5-10 years away, PCs need to be more reliable and so does the net.
we players faced it so many times in our gamelife. You have a limited lives in Mario, you have to restart all over again when u loses in Tetris, when u died by the very last boss in Street Fighter 3 u don't start crying cause there's no save game!, just to name a few cases.
If we migrate this to mmorpg world in almost the same! - u don't have to montly pay for the games above. Sure this is a big deal, the money but we can't pulverize this subject from the world. I think that exists a game system that permadeath would fit perfectly. The problems r that we don't know it yet and companies only cares about money...
I played a PvE MUD back in the day (500+ hours on one particular MUD ^^), so I can't say much about the permadeath thing. But MUDs require much, much more player involvement than graphical MMOs nowadays. I remember spending countless hours editing my bio, my character appearance (using html-like codes) so that he's "shiny" (the gms hated me for wasting bandwidth lol). Hell, even when I was a noob in the MUD I spent 15minute talking, yes talking in text to a npc before realizing it was an NPC. The NPCs dialogue was so cleverly written, and responses weren't prefab for players to select. Players had to type in questions and NPC would recognize certain keywords. (Having an actual conversation, one of the many things I missed about MUDs). MUDs were great for real role playing. You have to be in character. There's a separate chat channel just for OOC chat, and even that wasn't used often.
Graphical MMOs doesn't require that much involvement. Point, click, run here and there. Kill rats, reach level cap, and repeat raids.
Back on permadeath topic, I think a game would have to be designed from ground up around it in order for the mechanic to work. All games now are designed with multiple deaths in mind. Can't just suddenly add it and expect people to play it. It would certainly be interesting, but I doubt it'll be pushed by the game devs. Games are becoming more mainstream, celebs now openly say they're gamers because it's 'cool'. Just don't see permadeath appealing to the masses.
"I am the harbinger of hope. I am the sword of the righteous. And to all who hear my words, I say this: What you give to this Empire, I shall give back unto you." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I
I am not interested in a game with permadeath. That is not a flame; that is a fact. I have no problems with people who want permadeath; I just won't be playing alongside them.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Comments
What i meant and you missed is, obviously, deleting your own character when killed and permadeath is not the same thing. Its about challenge and bragging; if you didnt know that, well, welcome to mmos. Actually welcome to any competitive activity.
No ones forcing you or anyone else to play their way; OPs questioning why there isnt a permadeath mmo and proposing that there can be based on his mud experience. (which i disagree)
i should get over what? i didnt get that part.
I need more vespene gas.
nope. i meant permadeath and deleting your char is not the same thing (since almost every mmo out there assumes you'll die eventually if not frequently and a challenge not realized by others is not really a challenge) so the suggestion killing your char is invalid.
edit.
bad Torik, you already said (and better worded) what i meant. :P
I need more vespene gas.
The OP was incredibly long, you can't blame people for scanning it.
Not all MUDS were perma-death, in fact most weren't.
You state that permadeath has in fact worked many times. Besides from hard-core MUDs 10 years ago, can you state some examples please? I think you'll find that even 10 years ago it was a niche market. MMO's have moved on since then.
Whereas Jimmy Smith can code and run a MUD from home, these days millions of dollars are invested in making AAA MMO's and they need to have mass appeal. The question is, can you find hundreds of thousands or even millions of people that agree that perma-death is a good idea? I doubt it, yet those are the figures that companies judge "success" from these days.
On top of that, the community has changed. Whereas during MUD times even your worst enemy might help you out (even if it was so he could kill you later), people in WOW rage-quit after they die once in a group (with almost NO death-penalties).
I agree with you that people do invest more in their characters the harsher the penalty for death is, and it can lead to character-driven content like politics etc.
When it comes down to it though, dying isn't fun, and there are way too many uncontrollable factors that might mean your hundreds of hours of effort wiped out in a moment.
I'm not saying perma-death is a bad idea, or that it's not implementable. I'm just saying that I didn't play perma-death MUD's back when I was MUDing for the exact same reason I wouldn't play one now...the risk vs reward just isn't worth it to me.
Its funny how so many claim they have played from beginning internet(same with playing mmo's seems almost all played uo i wonder if this true:P) but when you ask to back it up they can't and most info from old days seems mostly general knowledge everybody can google.
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
I need more vespene gas.
permadeath in an mmo is pretty dumb. It would kill any kind of PVP, people would not take any risks in the game, and most people would not even play that game. Maybe a few die hards like yourself.
Lol cephus404 you have some serieus problems i see as many who reply to this permadeath topic why?
If people wanne play such games why your so upset then?
Let them.
This kind of games dont threaten your oh so carebear themepark games in anyway, no need to feel threaten by them ok:)
Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.
WHY are people so darn afraid of starting over?!
Permadeath surely is possible DEPENDING on the type of world set (Sure, with the type of chicken-MMO's out there at this date, where the majority are level based it wouldnt really fit it..)
It just depends on what type of rules the MMO have, and the advancement it offers for the players.
We have alot of working semi-death models working already in the market (lets take the still persistent MMO Tibia and its enforced pvp servers as an example! You gain experience from killing another player, they often drop tons of their equiped gear etc.)
"I want to sit with my 4 hours a day and the closest thing I want to danger is having a repair bill if I die.." - not a chance.
IF there would be a well balanced, well made game dropping out in the local store/online shop, that hosted penalized hard death/permadeath I would surely try it out!
//MMO player since 1994
Hehe a bugger wasnt it?
Cant remember what patch it was that changed the barbarians LEAP ATTACK into close melee, but the skill actually counted as a ranged attack before the bastards coded it and "lucky" me found out while doing a sanctum run >.< *doh*
Not a big thing, just redo a character...
The problem is: level based content
(instead of an open world, with.. lets say %-based skills/stats instead, that way you can always go wherever you want.. the downside not being a 100% killer on the prefered place to go crazy with your new spell/weapon.)
Aswell as a grafical one? Designing/coding aint all that far away from eachother as you would like to think.
The difference is in the time spent expanding the "small table" youve made.
Sure, I agree that its more work with having "pwetty gwafiks" implented... perfect example of that would be AION or say Age of Conan as examples of "pretties" gone down on subs/users/models gone wrong.
I couldn't stop them, I just point out that the possibility of convincing an MMO developer to make such a game is essentially nil, there just aren't enough people who want such a game to make it financially viable. I tell the same thing to people who want forced-grouping games, open-world FFA PvP games, etc. These are all tiny little niche games that just don't have the financial backing necessary to be made, especially by AAA developers. I'm just asking that people pretend to be realistic. Sure, you might wish such a game existed and you're welcome to do so, but it's just not going to happen in the real world.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Why will permadeath never happen?
Why is the idea ridiculous?
Why does permadeath belong as an option in action RPC hack n slash games (isn't that what all current games are?)
How can permadeath belong as an option if the idea is rediculous and would never happen?
Deleted message because Mods will likely get upset for calling another troll stupid.
--When you resubscribe to SWG, an 18 yearold Stripper finds Jesus, gives up stripping, and moves with a rolex reverend to Hawaii.
--In MMORPG's l007 is the opiate of the masses.
--The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence!
--CCP could cut off an Eve player's fun bits, and that player would say that it was good CCP did that.
Permadeath worked in MUDs because not that many people played MUDs. They weren't as popular a medium as graphical games and MMORPGs. In other words, MUDs appealed to a certain group of people. Probably because they were hardcore roleplayers, who by their very nature embraced permadeath.
Normal games appeal to a much broader audience, for whom the concept of permadeath is not appealing because most do not roleplay and just play these games for fun.
That is why, no matter how hard you try, you'll never have a successful permadeath model in MMORPGs.
Simple. It would be a customer service nightmare for developers.
The second someone died to a lag spike, or a glitch, or a bugged encounter, or whatever, they'd immediately start bleating and whining to the CS department, demanding their character be revived and reinstated because they spent X hours playing and have Y armor and Z weapons and it's not fair that they died through no fault of their own.
There's also the fact that some of the people who play these games are just assholes that get off on causing others misery. Imagine if something like this happened in a permadeath game:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrupted_Blood_incident
Throw permadeath into the mix of an incident like that, and you'd have folks quitting a game in droves. No developer wants to deal with that kind of crap, given how much money these games cost to develop and maintain. They want to attract customers, not keep them away.
The biggst issue with perma-death is content. At the present time ALL mmorpgs have limited content (yes even WOW). The content is not dynamic and changing. So If you find your character killed you will need to basically follow an identical path back up. This in turn increases the "punishement" for dieing. This punishments severity increases experditantly the higher the character is in level.
For example a character dies lvl 10 cost to you approx 10 - 15 hours of game play (rough estimate bo hard data for this). A level 50 character dies cost to you approx 40 days of game play ( for many people and systems this vaue can be a LOT higher). Now, the first time you die its annoying but hey you can take it and perhaps it will be a bit faster no to advance afterall you know the best spots right. The 2nd and third time annoying but still liveable. But after the third time your going to seriously think about scrapping the whole idea after all its boring now everythingd been done multiple times you find yourself less motivated to bother and eventially just cancel your subscription and go elsewhere.
Yes a soloution is to be more careful better skilled etc etc. BUT, PvP well this is big nasty element for a perma death after all the slightest error in balancing classes and youv'e got a lynch mob on your hands. you think players are bad now about balance issues wait till perma-death comes in and the issues have REAL consequences. Link Deaths and other connectivity issues such as LAG, well do you as a developer say sod em and let em die or do you put in a mechanic that LD people are immune as soon as they go LD (because if you do as soon as people feel they are losing a fight the first thing they would do is turn off their computer ....
So if you want perma-death heres whats needed :-
1) Dynamic world systen where every new start is a completely different adventure
2) Classes perfectly balanced so no class is better or worse than any other
3) Link death and LAG prevented
Of course there are soloutions :-
1) Link perma death with account deletion when your character dies cancel sub and go buy a new different game
2) Make the game so there is only ONE class
3) Have a several server farms on every landmass and set the system requirements to twice needed spec to ensure only the best specs play.
There you go.
Gadareth
I remember an instance on the news where some guy's Everquest character somehow was deleted and he was so upset, he actually committed suicide. I fear something like this, actually. Some bloke who is too obsessed puts in a week of work nonstop, gets no sleep, then dies to something and just snaps and kills himself or someone else. It has happened for less.
On the flip side, I think Eve has a fantastic character death system. You keep clones of yourself, which can be updated at ports. If you die, you take on the new clone and lose your destroyed ship and any new skills you had obtained since the creation of the new clone. Pirates in game often use this threat as an excuse to get more money out of people.
I also contemplated a system where if you died, your old character was reincarnated into a new character, who received bonuses to his skills based on your previous character's skills, but would otherwise be a new character and require to be made in the character creator.
Playing: Heroes of Three Kingdoms
Played: WoW, DDO, Second Life, Diablo II,
Tried free trial: LoTR, Fallen Earth, EvE, Champions Online,
1. It won't happen while the net is at it is. You often see people getting linkdead, computers crash and net go down, not to mention lag. As long as things are like that it is impossible. You could make a game that is played in LAN like that, since in lan lag is rare and you can always get a GM/technician fast to check what has happened and rez you if it was a technical issue.
I could see a lan place who has a permanent world with permadeath, that would work great but MMOs on the net isn't possible right now.
2. It is not. Permadeath works well in pen and paper RPGs and you can make a cool permadeath game. The problem is the technical issues I mentioned above.
I love a perma death MMO with a lot of roleplaying, crafting and other pen and paper things in if it is well made. But It is 5-10 years away, PCs need to be more reliable and so does the net.
i don't understand the flame about permadeath
we players faced it so many times in our gamelife. You have a limited lives in Mario, you have to restart all over again when u loses in Tetris, when u died by the very last boss in Street Fighter 3 u don't start crying cause there's no save game!, just to name a few cases.
If we migrate this to mmorpg world in almost the same! - u don't have to montly pay for the games above. Sure this is a big deal, the money but we can't pulverize this subject from the world. I think that exists a game system that permadeath would fit perfectly. The problems r that we don't know it yet and companies only cares about money...
LOTRO player
So permadeath isn't popular in MMOs because they have pretty graphics?
ROFL...permadeath isn't popular in MMOs because people don't want to lose thier stuff.
With the way PvP is on in MMOs these days you die and die often. You hardly ever encounter a fair fight in current mmos.
I played a PvE MUD back in the day (500+ hours on one particular MUD ^^), so I can't say much about the permadeath thing. But MUDs require much, much more player involvement than graphical MMOs nowadays. I remember spending countless hours editing my bio, my character appearance (using html-like codes) so that he's "shiny" (the gms hated me for wasting bandwidth lol). Hell, even when I was a noob in the MUD I spent 15minute talking, yes talking in text to a npc before realizing it was an NPC. The NPCs dialogue was so cleverly written, and responses weren't prefab for players to select. Players had to type in questions and NPC would recognize certain keywords. (Having an actual conversation, one of the many things I missed about MUDs). MUDs were great for real role playing. You have to be in character. There's a separate chat channel just for OOC chat, and even that wasn't used often.
Graphical MMOs doesn't require that much involvement. Point, click, run here and there. Kill rats, reach level cap, and repeat raids.
Back on permadeath topic, I think a game would have to be designed from ground up around it in order for the mechanic to work. All games now are designed with multiple deaths in mind. Can't just suddenly add it and expect people to play it. It would certainly be interesting, but I doubt it'll be pushed by the game devs. Games are becoming more mainstream, celebs now openly say they're gamers because it's 'cool'. Just don't see permadeath appealing to the masses.
"I am the harbinger of hope. I am the sword of the righteous. And to all who hear my words, I say this: What you give to this Empire, I shall give back unto you."
-Empress Jamyl Sarum I
I am not interested in a game with permadeath. That is not a flame; that is a fact. I have no problems with people who want permadeath; I just won't be playing alongside them.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
BTW...The title of this thread is "Permadeth Proposal"
All I saw was the OP blaming pretty graphics for the decline in permadeath enabled games.