In a game with no downtime, you can never stop to chat without losing XP because of it.
So there really isn't the "choice" you seem to think is there.
You can't "choose" to chat without losing XP, so you are FORCED to lose XP to chat. I don't want to be forced to lose XP to chat.
There is always a tradeoff in game design.
Usually people try to pretend that trade off doesn't exist, to justify the design they prefer, but it's always there.
Why are you losing XP? You're not losing anything, you're just not gaining anything. If all you want to do is get a constant stream of XP non-stop from the moment you log on then.. that's kinda weird. With your description of chatting forcing you to lose XP - do you also lose XP while travelling from one area to another? Do you lose XP while in town checking the auction house? There are a lot of things people do in game that doesn't allow them to gain XP, chatting is one of them, but lose XP? No.
You can tell the people here with lives and those without=) NOTHING stops you from chatting anytime you wish. If you need the game to FORCE you to socialize, you're not social. You're on a play date like my 3 year old, being forced to socialize with another kid whether you like him or not. Only the parent is the the game. "Sit down honey and go play with little johnny or regen your mana for 5 minutes". You're just someone who needs to be told how to play apparently or has no self control to choose when and where to chat.. If you feel you're missing out if you're not GO GO GOING constantly, time to stop drinking RedBull;) If your complaint is that others I play with don't want to chat, well, thats YOUR problem. Find like minded people to play with who like to just stop every once in a while.
I've long outgrown games making me pay a monthly fee to chat and stare at a regen bar. I did it back in AO, DAOC and before. But I was a single and had all the time in the world. Now, chatting with people just for the sake of it has lost whatever appeal it had almost 10 years ago. If I want to chat I will. If I want to sit down after a tough fight and discuss it, I do. If I want to fight and adventure for an hour without being interrupted for minutes at a time accomplishing nothing, I want to do that. If I want to do nothing every few minutes while the game artificially makes me sit around doing nothing, I'll find another game & developer that values my time and my money more. I don't find enjoyment in watching pixels doing nothing and I don't pay a monthly fee for a social simulator. I'm playing a videogame.
WOW had it right earlier on and thats why most people play it. Let players choose their downtime. Give them just a little, so they can choose when and where to socialize. The game has to have rules in place so you have to use strategy to manage all your mana/energy/stats, but old style artificial down time to mask a lack of content is not just old school...its outdated.
In a game with no downtime, you can never stop to chat without losing XP because of it.
So there really isn't the "choice" you seem to think is there.
You can't "choose" to chat without losing XP, so you are FORCED to lose XP to chat. I don't want to be forced to lose XP to chat.
There is always a tradeoff in game design.
Usually people try to pretend that trade off doesn't exist, to justify the design they prefer, but it's always there.
Why are you losing XP? You're not losing anything, you're just not gaining anything. If all you want to do is get a constant stream of XP non-stop from the moment you log on then.. that's kinda weird. With your description of chatting forcing you to lose XP - do you also lose XP while travelling from one area to another? Do you lose XP while in town checking the auction house? There are a lot of things people do in game that doesn't allow them to gain XP, chatting is one of them, but lose XP? No.
It's called opportunity cost. A pretty well understood and often used concept in economics.
Not gaining anything when you COULD be gaining something, is a loss. It has an "opportunity cost".
Your examples are things that you have to do to get XP, so of course that is not a loss of xp.
You do not have to chat to get xp, so that is a loss of xp.
You can't just stand where you are and do all the quests in the game.
To do a quest you are required to travel, so traveling is a part of getting xp, not something you do that loses XP.
You don't have to chat to get xp, so if there is no downtime, you are choosing between chatting, or making xp.
Of course you can use Vent and chat while you make xp, but I don't use vent myself.
Crafting is the same thing, a loss of XP, unless of course you are max level, which is why some players choose to max level, and then work on crafting skills.
Players must decide, do I want to gain xp, or gain crafting skills?
I don't think chat should ALWAYS be a choice between chatting and making XP.
If you have downtime then you can chat without losing XP.
You can always decide to chat MORE than downtime, and lose xp, just like you lose xp when you craft.
Downtime gives you the choice to chat without losing XP, or to chat even more and lose xp while you do it.
No downtime means you ALWAYS lose xp when you chat, whether you choose to or not.
As little as possible. Certainly not enough to get bored.
If people want to take more time to chat between fight, they can ALWAYS do that with or without downtime. Downtime forces people to find other things to do, which is BAD design.
When we are raiding, after a few fights, we will just take 10 min break, and sometimes people will hang around to chat. That is MUCH better than we are forced to have a 10 min "break" every time we finish a fight.
I think you shoud be more accurate in your statements. BAD design would be a game that no one likes.
You can certainly like a feature, or not like a feature.
But if you dislike a feature, it's not "bad design" if someone else likes it.
Again, if you like the fight, fight, fight, kthxbye game design, thats' fine. Play those games, enjoy them, and advocate for more of them to be made.
However, some people enjoy a game design that allows for more relaxed game play. If you dislike those games, then you should of course not play them.
However, I don't see the point in advocating they not be made. After all, such games will have no impact on you at all. You won't play them, and people liek you won't play them, so they are not competition for the games you like.
Well, there is only a small percentage of people who like downtime .. it is CLOSE TO a bad design then. Aside from some vocal people here, i have yet met anyone who wants to do NOTHING in a MMORPG.
Like I said before, you *can* have more relaxed gameplay. Down-time is restrictive. You can always stop more in a game without down-time but you cannot stop less in one that has down-time.
Sure I wont play them except it would be a tragedy for a game that is good in other aspects to be marred from this one bad "feature" that few people want.
In a game with no downtime, you can never stop to chat without losing XP because of it.
So there really isn't the "choice" you seem to think is there.
You can't "choose" to chat without losing XP, so you are FORCED to lose XP to chat. I don't want to be forced to lose XP to chat.
There is always a tradeoff in game design.
Usually people try to pretend that trade off doesn't exist, to justify the design they prefer, but it's always there.
So? It is about choice. If down-time is FORCED, i have no choice but to lose the XP and chat. If it is not, I can CHOOSE between XP and chat.
As little as possible. Certainly not enough to get bored.
If people want to take more time to chat between fight, they can ALWAYS do that with or without downtime. Downtime forces people to find other things to do, which is BAD design.
When we are raiding, after a few fights, we will just take 10 min break, and sometimes people will hang around to chat. That is MUCH better than we are forced to have a 10 min "break" every time we finish a fight.
I think you shoud be more accurate in your statements. BAD design would be a game that no one likes.
You can certainly like a feature, or not like a feature.
But if you dislike a feature, it's not "bad design" if someone else likes it.
Again, if you like the fight, fight, fight, kthxbye game design, thats' fine. Play those games, enjoy them, and advocate for more of them to be made.
However, some people enjoy a game design that allows for more relaxed game play. If you dislike those games, then you should of course not play them.
However, I don't see the point in advocating they not be made. After all, such games will have no impact on you at all. You won't play them, and people liek you won't play them, so they are not competition for the games you like.
Well, there is only a small percentage of people who like downtime .. it is CLOSE TO a bad design then. Aside from some vocal people here, i have yet met anyone who wants to do NOTHING in a MMORPG.
Like I said before, you *can* have more relaxed gameplay. Down-time is restrictive. You can always stop more in a game without down-time but you cannot stop less in one that has down-time.
Sure I wont play them except it would be a tragedy for a game that is good in other aspects to be marred from this one bad "feature" that few people want.
If its keeping off people like you its GOOD design. Your small percentage idea is bullshit have you any (real) prove for that if not well I doubt it. I'm all for downtime: med time, read time in order to learn your new spells, pull time, chat time aso.
Good that I am NOT playing with you. The fact that WOW eliminated down-time and immediately became much more popular than EQ after its release is indirect evidence.
WOW (not the game) Im reading some real fuzzy logic .. This reminds me of the silly philosophy joke of, "I breath, dogs breath, so therefore I'm a dog" logic.. Amazing what lenths people will go to.. LOL
As little as possible. Certainly not enough to get bored. If people want to take more time to chat between fight, they can ALWAYS do that with or without downtime. Downtime forces people to find other things to do, which is BAD design. When we are raiding, after a few fights, we will just take 10 min break, and sometimes people will hang around to chat. That is MUCH better than we are forced to have a 10 min "break" every time we finish a fight.
I think you shoud be more accurate in your statements. BAD design would be a game that no one likes.
You can certainly like a feature, or not like a feature.
But if you dislike a feature, it's not "bad design" if someone else likes it.
Again, if you like the fight, fight, fight, kthxbye game design, thats' fine. Play those games, enjoy them, and advocate for more of them to be made.
However, some people enjoy a game design that allows for more relaxed game play. If you dislike those games, then you should of course not play them.
However, I don't see the point in advocating they not be made. After all, such games will have no impact on you at all. You won't play them, and people liek you won't play them, so they are not competition for the games you like.
Well, there is only a small percentage of people who like downtime .. it is CLOSE TO a bad design then. Aside from some vocal people here, i have yet met anyone who wants to do NOTHING in a MMORPG.
Like I said before, you *can* have more relaxed gameplay. Down-time is restrictive. You can always stop more in a game without down-time but you cannot stop less in one that has down-time.
Sure I wont play them except it would be a tragedy for a game that is good in other aspects to be marred from this one bad "feature" that few people want.
If its keeping off people like you its GOOD design. Your small percentage idea is bullshit have you any (real) prove for that if not well I doubt it. I'm all for downtime: med time, read time in order to learn your new spells, pull time, chat time aso.
Good that I am NOT playing with you. The fact that WOW eliminated down-time and immediately became much more popular than EQ after its release is indirect evidence.
So you're having no prove oh well I'm not surprised :-)
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
As little as possible. Certainly not enough to get bored.
If people want to take more time to chat between fight, they can ALWAYS do that with or without downtime. Downtime forces people to find other things to do, which is BAD design.
When we are raiding, after a few fights, we will just take 10 min break, and sometimes people will hang around to chat. That is MUCH better than we are forced to have a 10 min "break" every time we finish a fight.
I think you shoud be more accurate in your statements. BAD design would be a game that no one likes.
You can certainly like a feature, or not like a feature.
But if you dislike a feature, it's not "bad design" if someone else likes it.
Again, if you like the fight, fight, fight, kthxbye game design, thats' fine. Play those games, enjoy them, and advocate for more of them to be made.
However, some people enjoy a game design that allows for more relaxed game play. If you dislike those games, then you should of course not play them.
However, I don't see the point in advocating they not be made. After all, such games will have no impact on you at all. You won't play them, and people liek you won't play them, so they are not competition for the games you like.
Well, there is only a small percentage of people who like downtime .. it is CLOSE TO a bad design then. Aside from some vocal people here, i have yet met anyone who wants to do NOTHING in a MMORPG.
Like I said before, you *can* have more relaxed gameplay. Down-time is restrictive. You can always stop more in a game without down-time but you cannot stop less in one that has down-time.
Sure I wont play them except it would be a tragedy for a game that is good in other aspects to be marred from this one bad "feature" that few people want.
If its keeping off people like you its GOOD design. Your small percentage idea is bullshit have you any (real) prove for that if not well I doubt it. I'm all for downtime: med time, read time in order to learn your new spells, pull time, chat time aso.
Good that I am NOT playing with you. The fact that WOW eliminated down-time and immediately became much more popular than EQ after its release is indirect evidence.
So you're having no prove oh well I'm not surprised :-)
As little as possible. Certainly not enough to get bored.
If people want to take more time to chat between fight, they can ALWAYS do that with or without downtime. Downtime forces people to find other things to do, which is BAD design.
When we are raiding, after a few fights, we will just take 10 min break, and sometimes people will hang around to chat. That is MUCH better than we are forced to have a 10 min "break" every time we finish a fight.
I think you shoud be more accurate in your statements. BAD design would be a game that no one likes.
You can certainly like a feature, or not like a feature.
But if you dislike a feature, it's not "bad design" if someone else likes it.
Again, if you like the fight, fight, fight, kthxbye game design, thats' fine. Play those games, enjoy them, and advocate for more of them to be made.
However, some people enjoy a game design that allows for more relaxed game play. If you dislike those games, then you should of course not play them.
However, I don't see the point in advocating they not be made. After all, such games will have no impact on you at all. You won't play them, and people liek you won't play them, so they are not competition for the games you like.
Well, there is only a small percentage of people who like downtime .. it is CLOSE TO a bad design then. Aside from some vocal people here, i have yet met anyone who wants to do NOTHING in a MMORPG.
Like I said before, you *can* have more relaxed gameplay. Down-time is restrictive. You can always stop more in a game without down-time but you cannot stop less in one that has down-time.
Sure I wont play them except it would be a tragedy for a game that is good in other aspects to be marred from this one bad "feature" that few people want.
In a game with no downtime, you can never stop to chat without losing XP because of it.
So there really isn't the "choice" you seem to think is there.
You can't "choose" to chat without losing XP, so you are FORCED to lose XP to chat. I don't want to be forced to lose XP to chat.
There is always a tradeoff in game design.
Usually people try to pretend that trade off doesn't exist, to justify the design they prefer, but it's always there.
So? It is about choice. If down-time is FORCED, i have no choice but to lose the XP and chat. If it is not, I can CHOOSE between XP and chat.
XP rate is ALWAYS set by the game. you are NEVER losing XP just because of the rate that XP gain is set in the game.
Saying down time in the game is "forcing" you to lose XP is like saying becqause you don't get 1,000,000 XP points for each mob kill, or quest completed, you're being "forced" to lose XP.
The rate the game sets for XP gain is the rate, whether there is downtime or not.
In fact, you can easily add downtime to a game, and set the XP rate so that the actual time to level is the same.
I kill 10 Mobs, and get 10 XP each, for a total of 100 XP, with ZERO downtime.
I kill 10 Mobs, adn there is 60 seconds of downtime but I get 20XP for each mob.
Same result, same XP in same total time of being logged on, with downtime, and without downtime.
The game ALWAYS sets the rate of XP gain, NEVER the players.
You can't just decide to make 10 million XP per second because you want to. EVERY MMORPG "forces" you to earn XP at the rate set by the developers, with or without downtime.
A developer could ad downtime to the game and make you level FASTER than without downtime.
I ad a 60 second downtime in between fights, but give you 1 MILLION xp per mob.
That's much, much, faster leveling that ZERO downtime, and 100 xp per mob.
See? Down time is a feature separate from rate of xp gain.
As little as possible. Certainly not enough to get bored.
If people want to take more time to chat between fight, they can ALWAYS do that with or without downtime. Downtime forces people to find other things to do, which is BAD design.
When we are raiding, after a few fights, we will just take 10 min break, and sometimes people will hang around to chat. That is MUCH better than we are forced to have a 10 min "break" every time we finish a fight.
I think you shoud be more accurate in your statements. BAD design would be a game that no one likes.
You can certainly like a feature, or not like a feature.
But if you dislike a feature, it's not "bad design" if someone else likes it.
Again, if you like the fight, fight, fight, kthxbye game design, thats' fine. Play those games, enjoy them, and advocate for more of them to be made.
However, some people enjoy a game design that allows for more relaxed game play. If you dislike those games, then you should of course not play them.
However, I don't see the point in advocating they not be made. After all, such games will have no impact on you at all. You won't play them, and people liek you won't play them, so they are not competition for the games you like.
Well, there is only a small percentage of people who like downtime .. it is CLOSE TO a bad design then. Aside from some vocal people here, i have yet met anyone who wants to do NOTHING in a MMORPG.
Like I said before, you *can* have more relaxed gameplay. Down-time is restrictive. You can always stop more in a game without down-time but you cannot stop less in one that has down-time.
Sure I wont play them except it would be a tragedy for a game that is good in other aspects to be marred from this one bad "feature" that few people want.
In a game with no downtime, you can never stop to chat without losing XP because of it.
So there really isn't the "choice" you seem to think is there.
You can't "choose" to chat without losing XP, so you are FORCED to lose XP to chat. I don't want to be forced to lose XP to chat.
There is always a tradeoff in game design.
Usually people try to pretend that trade off doesn't exist, to justify the design they prefer, but it's always there.
So? It is about choice. If down-time is FORCED, i have no choice but to lose the XP and chat. If it is not, I can CHOOSE between XP and chat.
XP rate is ALWAYS set by the game. you are NEVER losing XP just because of the rate that XP gain is set in the game.
Saying down time in the game is "forcing" you to lose XP is like saying becqause you don't get 1,000,000 XP points for each mob kill, or quest completed, you're being "forced" to lose XP.
The rate the game sets for XP gain is the rate, whether there is downtime or not.
In fact, you can easily add downtime to a game, and set the XP rate so that the actual time to level is the same.
I kill 10 Mobs, and get 10 XP each, for a total of 100 XP, with ZERO downtime.
I kill 10 Mobs, adn there is 60 seconds of downtime but I get 20XP for each mob.
Same result, same XP in same total time of being logged on, with downtime, and without downtime.
The game ALWAYS sets the rate of XP gain, NEVER the players.
You can't just decide to make 10 million XP per second because you want to. EVERY MMORPG "forces" you to earn XP at the rate set by the developers, with or without downtime.
A developer could ad downtime to the game and make you level FASTER than without downtime.
I ad a 60 second downtime in between fights, but give you 1 MILLION xp per mob.
That's much, much, faster leveling that ZERO downtime, and 100 xp per mob.
See? Down time is a feature separate from rate of xp gain.
I supposed we should go back to boredom then. The whole point about down-time is that it is forced boredom. Surely some will chat, but some will just be bored out of their tears. Once again, choice is good. To be forced to do nothing is bad.
As little as possible. Certainly not enough to get bored.
If people want to take more time to chat between fight, they can ALWAYS do that with or without downtime. Downtime forces people to find other things to do, which is BAD design.
When we are raiding, after a few fights, we will just take 10 min break, and sometimes people will hang around to chat. That is MUCH better than we are forced to have a 10 min "break" every time we finish a fight.
I think you shoud be more accurate in your statements. BAD design would be a game that no one likes.
You can certainly like a feature, or not like a feature.
But if you dislike a feature, it's not "bad design" if someone else likes it.
Again, if you like the fight, fight, fight, kthxbye game design, thats' fine. Play those games, enjoy them, and advocate for more of them to be made.
However, some people enjoy a game design that allows for more relaxed game play. If you dislike those games, then you should of course not play them.
However, I don't see the point in advocating they not be made. After all, such games will have no impact on you at all. You won't play them, and people liek you won't play them, so they are not competition for the games you like.
Well, there is only a small percentage of people who like downtime .. it is CLOSE TO a bad design then. Aside from some vocal people here, i have yet met anyone who wants to do NOTHING in a MMORPG.
Like I said before, you *can* have more relaxed gameplay. Down-time is restrictive. You can always stop more in a game without down-time but you cannot stop less in one that has down-time.
Sure I wont play them except it would be a tragedy for a game that is good in other aspects to be marred from this one bad "feature" that few people want.
In a game with no downtime, you can never stop to chat without losing XP because of it.
So there really isn't the "choice" you seem to think is there.
You can't "choose" to chat without losing XP, so you are FORCED to lose XP to chat. I don't want to be forced to lose XP to chat.
There is always a tradeoff in game design.
Usually people try to pretend that trade off doesn't exist, to justify the design they prefer, but it's always there.
So? It is about choice. If down-time is FORCED, i have no choice but to lose the XP and chat. If it is not, I can CHOOSE between XP and chat.
XP rate is ALWAYS set by the game. you are NEVER losing XP just because of the rate that XP gain is set in the game.
Saying down time in the game is "forcing" you to lose XP is like saying becqause you don't get 1,000,000 XP points for each mob kill, or quest completed, you're being "forced" to lose XP.
The rate the game sets for XP gain is the rate, whether there is downtime or not.
In fact, you can easily add downtime to a game, and set the XP rate so that the actual time to level is the same.
I kill 10 Mobs, and get 10 XP each, for a total of 100 XP, with ZERO downtime.
I kill 10 Mobs, adn there is 60 seconds of downtime but I get 20XP for each mob.
Same result, same XP in same total time of being logged on, with downtime, and without downtime.
The game ALWAYS sets the rate of XP gain, NEVER the players.
You can't just decide to make 10 million XP per second because you want to. EVERY MMORPG "forces" you to earn XP at the rate set by the developers, with or without downtime.
A developer could ad downtime to the game and make you level FASTER than without downtime.
I ad a 60 second downtime in between fights, but give you 1 MILLION xp per mob.
That's much, much, faster leveling that ZERO downtime, and 100 xp per mob.
See? Down time is a feature separate from rate of xp gain.
I supposed we should go back to boredom then. The whole point about down-time is that it is forced boredom. Surely some will chat, but some will just be bored out of their tears. Once again, choice is good. To be forced to do nothing is bad.
I agree that some players will enjoy a game with downtime, and some players will enjoy a game with zero downtime.
that's why choice is good, and it's nice to be able to play different games.
I'm just showing you that the only way to have real choice, is different games.
Anything else is just advocating for what you like.
And there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but it's silly to advocate for what you like, and then argue that everyone else should ilke it too, or state that YOUR design, the one you like, is actually the best for EVERYONE, becaues YOUR design gives everyone a "choice" blah, blah, blah.
It's always the best for YOU, and the "choice" is always playing a game that has the features YOU like, but no one game can be the best for everyone.
I agree that some players will enjoy a game with downtime, and some players will enjoy a game with zero downtime.
that's why choice is good, and it's nice to be able to play different games.
I'm just showing you that the only way to have real choice, is different games.
Anything else is just advocating for what you like.
And there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but it's silly to advocate for what you like, and then argue that everyone else should ilke it too, or state that YOUR design, the one you like, is actually the best for EVERYONE, becaues YOUR design gives everyone a "choice" blah, blah, blah.
It's always the best for YOU, and the "choice" is always playing a game that has the features YOU like, but no one game can be the best for everyone.
I wonder .. do you play WOW? Do you play games that have little or no down-time?
The thing is .. a game with NO DOWN-TIME includes down-time because you can always sit on ur butt and do nothing. So by defintion it is a better design because it serves BOTH kind of players (those who like down-time and those who don't).
It's never the whim of the players, it is ALWAYS built into the game. You're simply saying you prefer the fight, fight, fight, kthxbye! model to some downtime.
No, I'm saying I want the option to decide what I want to do today. Some days, sure, all I want to do is fight. Other days, I might want to sit around and talk. I want the option on a case-by-case basis to decide what I want to do.
It's ok to pick that, but it's silly to suggest picking that model is also allowing players to chat between battles and not feel like they are losing XP.
Because they ARE losing XP if the game has zero downtime. Really no way to argue against that fact.
Only if they're XP-whores. If you don't care about charging toward end-game in the first place, who cares? There are times I'd go days or weeks without making any significant XP whatsoever because I'm too busy doing other things. Let's face it, when you log off to go to bed, you're "losing XP", but everyone still does it eventually. That's a really bad argument.
You want a game that forces players to choose between chatting, and losing XP. I like a game that doesn't force players to make this choice.
I want a game where people can decide on their own what they want to do. You want a game where the game itself forces everyone to be carbon copies of each other.
Was best in SWG going to cantinas and that, really fun to have a chat.
Yeah, but that was something people CHOSE to do, not were FORCED to do by the game. SWG didn't round everyone up after a fight, dump them in a cantina and lock the doors for 15 minutes "downtime". You went because you wanted to. You weren't forced to. It was a choice.
That's something some people don't seem to comprehend.
I supposed we should go back to boredom then. The whole point about down-time is that it is forced boredom. Surely some will chat, but some will just be bored out of their tears. Once again, choice is good. To be forced to do nothing is bad.
That's also inaccurate.
You're not "forced" to do nothing. That would only happen if the game developers sent people to your house to hold you down and not allow you to move.
I agree that some players will enjoy a game with downtime, and some players will enjoy a game with zero downtime.
that's why choice is good, and it's nice to be able to play different games.
I'm just showing you that the only way to have real choice, is different games.
Anything else is just advocating for what you like.
And there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but it's silly to advocate for what you like, and then argue that everyone else should ilke it too, or state that YOUR design, the one you like, is actually the best for EVERYONE, becaues YOUR design gives everyone a "choice" blah, blah, blah.
It's always the best for YOU, and the "choice" is always playing a game that has the features YOU like, but no one game can be the best for everyone.
I wonder .. do you play WOW? Do you play games that have little or no down-time?
The thing is .. a game with NO DOWN-TIME includes down-time because you can always sit on ur butt and do nothing. So by defintion it is a better design because it serves BOTH kind of players (those who like down-time and those who don't).
You an always log off and not play. that's not what we are talking about when we use the term "downtime".
City of Heroes, for example, has little or no downtime.
EQ, for example, had long downtimes.
We're talking about something differerent from simply logging off and not playing the game, or leaving the running on your computer, and not playing it.
"By definition" a better game is the one you think is fun.
You think no downtime is fun. That's fine, and I would never tell you what you think is fun.
I think a game with some downtime is fun.
You're telling me you know what is fun for me and every other gamer on the planet, and we all have to like and have fun with exactly the same games YOU like? Seriously?
It's never the whim of the players, it is ALWAYS built into the game. You're simply saying you prefer the fight, fight, fight, kthxbye! model to some downtime.
No, I'm saying I want the option to decide what I want to do today. Some days, sure, all I want to do is fight. Other days, I might want to sit around and talk. I want the option on a case-by-case basis to decide what I want to do.
It's ok to pick that, but it's silly to suggest picking that model is also allowing players to chat between battles and not feel like they are losing XP.
Because they ARE losing XP if the game has zero downtime. Really no way to argue against that fact.
Only if they're XP-whores. If you don't care about charging toward end-game in the first place, who cares? There are times I'd go days or weeks without making any significant XP whatsoever because I'm too busy doing other things. Let's face it, when you log off to go to bed, you're "losing XP", but everyone still does it eventually. That's a really bad argument.
You want a game that forces players to choose between chatting, and losing XP. I like a game that doesn't force players to make this choice.
I want a game where people can decide on their own what they want to do. You want a game where the game itself forces everyone to be carbon copies of each other.
Another way to phrase it is I like games with some downtime, and you don't. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, do you?
Actually that is incorrect.
If there is no downtime, and you choose to chat, you are losing XP.
It's an opportunity cost.
It doesn't matter whether you are an "xp whore" or you are trying to make sure you never gain any xp and you don't want to make the next level at all.
Either way, the XP is a lost opportunity cost. It's not something that is determined by what you think, or how you feel.
A person who has $15 can either buy a CD or a shirt. If he buys the shirt the opportunity cost is the CD and if he buys the CD the opportunity cost is the shirt. If there are more choices than two, the opportunity cost is still only one item, never all of them.
A person who invests $10,000 in a stock denies herself or himself the interest that could have accrued by leaving the $10,000 in a bank account instead. The opportunity cost of the decision to invest in stock is the value of the interest.
A person who sells stock for $10,000 denies himself or herself the opportunity to sell the stock for a higher price (say $12,000) in the future, inheriting an opportunity cost equal to the future price of $12,000 (and not the future price minus the sale price). Note that in this case, the opportunity cost can only be determined in hindsight.
An organization that invests $1 million in acquiring a new asset instead of spending that money on maintaining its existing asset portfolio incurs the increased risk of failure of its existing assets. The opportunity cost of the decision to acquire a new asset is the financial security that comes from the organization's spending the money on maintaining its existing asset portfolio.
So as you can see, you don't want a game "where people can decide what they want to do".
You want a game where people are FORCED to lose XP to chat.
And that's ok, but it's silly to say you want that game for me, and for you.
You're just saying you want the game YOU like, and you don't care what I like. That's fine, but it's not really about "choice", is it?
If there is no downtime, and you choose to chat, you are losing XP.
Not everyone is focused solely on XP gain. Even of those who are only playing to maximize their leveling, there are still plenty would would prefer to level at their own pace. Downtime means you have to level at the preprogrammed pace. No downtime allows the players to step back and take a break when - or if - they choose to. Choice is awesome.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No downtime in a game for me please. Downtime is a waste of gametime. If i would like to socialize or chat i go outside or rather join a glorified chatroom.
If I had more time to play, like i did back when I played EQ, I would be all for lots of downtime. It added to the community (it was important to make friends with healers and enchanters or you will be sitting around longer) and wasn't really noticable because there was stuff to do and talk about while you were meditating. Good groups didn't have much downtime, so that was incentive to get a nice balanced group to work with. But at the same time, unbalanced groups could be fun also and were often more challenging.
Now that I have barely 10 hours a week to devote to gaming, downtime is definitely more of a burden.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Originally posted by Josher NOTHING stops you from chatting anytime you wish.
FFXI gives you exp bonus for killing mobs in quick succession ("Experience chains"). If you slow down the party and break the chain, the other guys in the party aren't going to like you very much.
I want zero forced downtime. If I want to keep active, I want the option to do so. After all, the party can always voluntarily stop if they want to, they aren't forced to keep moving on to the next mob, they can sit around and sing kumbayah all they want.. It should be at the whim of the players, not built into the game.
Yes, but you will always have one or two players trying to rush along. That sort of limits the ability for a player to take it easy and move at their own pace. In my opinion the forced downtime was a way to regulate progression and inspire player interaction beyond combat. Not saying you are wrong, but don't pretend like having the option to have downtime would mean anyone would opt for that over instant gratification.
EQ didn't have forced downtime. If you were able to get a good balanced group together, there was rarely any downtime at all. That means there were rewards for being able to get a good balanced group together. It could be difficult to do, but that was part of the risk vs. reward in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
If there is no downtime, and you choose to chat, you are losing XP.
Not everyone is focused solely on XP gain. Even of those who are only playing to maximize their leveling, there are still plenty would would prefer to level at their own pace. Downtime means you have to level at the preprogrammed pace. No downtime allows the players to step back and take a break when - or if - they choose to. Choice is awesome.
Downtime doesn't affect rate of leveling.
I can give you 1 million XP per mob, or 1 xp per mob, with or without downtime.
I agree that Choice is awesome!
To be able to choose to play a game with downtime, or a game without downtime would be an awesome choice for players to have!
Forcing EVERYONE to play a game with zero downtime?
First off, What is your deffinition of 'Downtime'?
Some people consider the rest period between battles as downtime, while others may see non-combat (well, non XP/Skill gain) activities as a form of downtime.
If you meant the rest period between battles (sitting to gain mana, HP, stam or whatnot) then I would have to say not that much for me. While I like being able to stop for a minute and get feeling back in my fingers, go to the bathroom, etc I don't want/like a forced rest break every other kill.
If you meant social downtime activities (other than questing/combat/gains) like mini games or fishing, then I would say as much as possible.
Thing is, in a game like WoW where there is no real need to sit between fights, players still have the option of taking a break. The downside is that a lot of players would rather just rush through a dungeon and be done with it, leaving little time for others to rest.
With old EQ style downtime, people could rest after each fight but after about 2 hours of play it sometimes felt like you weren't getting anywhere or accomplished much. And there really wasn't much choice for the player in taht respect.
As far as my choice, I would rather have fast combat as well as a ton of social downtime options (cause progression is really just a fraction of the fun). Some days I want to gain a level or two and maybe some gear, other days I want to just sit on the docks and fish while listening to music or an audio book and chat with people and relax (specially when its either nasty cold and damp outside or hazy hot and humid).
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Comments
Why are you losing XP? You're not losing anything, you're just not gaining anything. If all you want to do is get a constant stream of XP non-stop from the moment you log on then.. that's kinda weird. With your description of chatting forcing you to lose XP - do you also lose XP while travelling from one area to another? Do you lose XP while in town checking the auction house? There are a lot of things people do in game that doesn't allow them to gain XP, chatting is one of them, but lose XP? No.
You can tell the people here with lives and those without=) NOTHING stops you from chatting anytime you wish. If you need the game to FORCE you to socialize, you're not social. You're on a play date like my 3 year old, being forced to socialize with another kid whether you like him or not. Only the parent is the the game. "Sit down honey and go play with little johnny or regen your mana for 5 minutes". You're just someone who needs to be told how to play apparently or has no self control to choose when and where to chat.. If you feel you're missing out if you're not GO GO GOING constantly, time to stop drinking RedBull;) If your complaint is that others I play with don't want to chat, well, thats YOUR problem. Find like minded people to play with who like to just stop every once in a while.
I've long outgrown games making me pay a monthly fee to chat and stare at a regen bar. I did it back in AO, DAOC and before. But I was a single and had all the time in the world. Now, chatting with people just for the sake of it has lost whatever appeal it had almost 10 years ago. If I want to chat I will. If I want to sit down after a tough fight and discuss it, I do. If I want to fight and adventure for an hour without being interrupted for minutes at a time accomplishing nothing, I want to do that. If I want to do nothing every few minutes while the game artificially makes me sit around doing nothing, I'll find another game & developer that values my time and my money more. I don't find enjoyment in watching pixels doing nothing and I don't pay a monthly fee for a social simulator. I'm playing a videogame.
WOW had it right earlier on and thats why most people play it. Let players choose their downtime. Give them just a little, so they can choose when and where to socialize. The game has to have rules in place so you have to use strategy to manage all your mana/energy/stats, but old style artificial down time to mask a lack of content is not just old school...its outdated.
None. There is nothing fun about downtime in a video game. If I want downtime I'll go take a nap.
It's called opportunity cost. A pretty well understood and often used concept in economics.
Not gaining anything when you COULD be gaining something, is a loss. It has an "opportunity cost".
Your examples are things that you have to do to get XP, so of course that is not a loss of xp.
You do not have to chat to get xp, so that is a loss of xp.
You can't just stand where you are and do all the quests in the game.
To do a quest you are required to travel, so traveling is a part of getting xp, not something you do that loses XP.
You don't have to chat to get xp, so if there is no downtime, you are choosing between chatting, or making xp.
Of course you can use Vent and chat while you make xp, but I don't use vent myself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
Crafting is the same thing, a loss of XP, unless of course you are max level, which is why some players choose to max level, and then work on crafting skills.
Players must decide, do I want to gain xp, or gain crafting skills?
I don't think chat should ALWAYS be a choice between chatting and making XP.
If you have downtime then you can chat without losing XP.
You can always decide to chat MORE than downtime, and lose xp, just like you lose xp when you craft.
Downtime gives you the choice to chat without losing XP, or to chat even more and lose xp while you do it.
No downtime means you ALWAYS lose xp when you chat, whether you choose to or not.
So? It is about choice. If down-time is FORCED, i have no choice but to lose the XP and chat. If it is not, I can CHOOSE between XP and chat.
Good that I am NOT playing with you. The fact that WOW eliminated down-time and immediately became much more popular than EQ after its release is indirect evidence.
WOW (not the game) Im reading some real fuzzy logic .. This reminds me of the silly philosophy joke of, "I breath, dogs breath, so therefore I'm a dog" logic.. Amazing what lenths people will go to.. LOL
I think you shoud be more accurate in your statements. BAD design would be a game that no one likes.
You can certainly like a feature, or not like a feature.
But if you dislike a feature, it's not "bad design" if someone else likes it.
Again, if you like the fight, fight, fight, kthxbye game design, thats' fine. Play those games, enjoy them, and advocate for more of them to be made.
However, some people enjoy a game design that allows for more relaxed game play. If you dislike those games, then you should of course not play them.
However, I don't see the point in advocating they not be made. After all, such games will have no impact on you at all. You won't play them, and people liek you won't play them, so they are not competition for the games you like.
Well, there is only a small percentage of people who like downtime .. it is CLOSE TO a bad design then. Aside from some vocal people here, i have yet met anyone who wants to do NOTHING in a MMORPG.
Like I said before, you *can* have more relaxed gameplay. Down-time is restrictive. You can always stop more in a game without down-time but you cannot stop less in one that has down-time.
Sure I wont play them except it would be a tragedy for a game that is good in other aspects to be marred from this one bad "feature" that few people want.
If its keeping off people like you its GOOD design. Your small percentage idea is bullshit have you any (real) prove for that if not well I doubt it. I'm all for downtime: med time, read time in order to learn your new spells, pull time, chat time aso.Good that I am NOT playing with you. The fact that WOW eliminated down-time and immediately became much more popular than EQ after its release is indirect evidence.
So you're having no prove oh well I'm not surprised :-)We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Incoming x amount people can't be wrong fallacy.
XP rate is ALWAYS set by the game. you are NEVER losing XP just because of the rate that XP gain is set in the game.
Saying down time in the game is "forcing" you to lose XP is like saying becqause you don't get 1,000,000 XP points for each mob kill, or quest completed, you're being "forced" to lose XP.
The rate the game sets for XP gain is the rate, whether there is downtime or not.
In fact, you can easily add downtime to a game, and set the XP rate so that the actual time to level is the same.
I kill 10 Mobs, and get 10 XP each, for a total of 100 XP, with ZERO downtime.
I kill 10 Mobs, adn there is 60 seconds of downtime but I get 20XP for each mob.
Same result, same XP in same total time of being logged on, with downtime, and without downtime.
The game ALWAYS sets the rate of XP gain, NEVER the players.
You can't just decide to make 10 million XP per second because you want to. EVERY MMORPG "forces" you to earn XP at the rate set by the developers, with or without downtime.
A developer could ad downtime to the game and make you level FASTER than without downtime.
I ad a 60 second downtime in between fights, but give you 1 MILLION xp per mob.
That's much, much, faster leveling that ZERO downtime, and 100 xp per mob.
See? Down time is a feature separate from rate of xp gain.
I supposed we should go back to boredom then. The whole point about down-time is that it is forced boredom. Surely some will chat, but some will just be bored out of their tears. Once again, choice is good. To be forced to do nothing is bad.
I agree that some players will enjoy a game with downtime, and some players will enjoy a game with zero downtime.
that's why choice is good, and it's nice to be able to play different games.
I'm just showing you that the only way to have real choice, is different games.
Anything else is just advocating for what you like.
And there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but it's silly to advocate for what you like, and then argue that everyone else should ilke it too, or state that YOUR design, the one you like, is actually the best for EVERYONE, becaues YOUR design gives everyone a "choice" blah, blah, blah.
It's always the best for YOU, and the "choice" is always playing a game that has the features YOU like, but no one game can be the best for everyone.
I wonder .. do you play WOW? Do you play games that have little or no down-time?
The thing is .. a game with NO DOWN-TIME includes down-time because you can always sit on ur butt and do nothing. So by defintion it is a better design because it serves BOTH kind of players (those who like down-time and those who don't).
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
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Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Yeah, but that was something people CHOSE to do, not were FORCED to do by the game. SWG didn't round everyone up after a fight, dump them in a cantina and lock the doors for 15 minutes "downtime". You went because you wanted to. You weren't forced to. It was a choice.
That's something some people don't seem to comprehend.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
That's also inaccurate.
You're not "forced" to do nothing. That would only happen if the game developers sent people to your house to hold you down and not allow you to move.
You an always log off and not play. that's not what we are talking about when we use the term "downtime".
City of Heroes, for example, has little or no downtime.
EQ, for example, had long downtimes.
We're talking about something differerent from simply logging off and not playing the game, or leaving the running on your computer, and not playing it.
"By definition" a better game is the one you think is fun.
You think no downtime is fun. That's fine, and I would never tell you what you think is fun.
I think a game with some downtime is fun.
You're telling me you know what is fun for me and every other gamer on the planet, and we all have to like and have fun with exactly the same games YOU like? Seriously?
Another way to phrase it is I like games with some downtime, and you don't. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, do you?
Actually that is incorrect.
If there is no downtime, and you choose to chat, you are losing XP.
It's an opportunity cost.
It doesn't matter whether you are an "xp whore" or you are trying to make sure you never gain any xp and you don't want to make the next level at all.
Either way, the XP is a lost opportunity cost. It's not something that is determined by what you think, or how you feel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
Examples
A person who has $15 can either buy a CD or a shirt. If he buys the shirt the opportunity cost is the CD and if he buys the CD the opportunity cost is the shirt. If there are more choices than two, the opportunity cost is still only one item, never all of them.
A person who invests $10,000 in a stock denies herself or himself the interest that could have accrued by leaving the $10,000 in a bank account instead. The opportunity cost of the decision to invest in stock is the value of the interest.
A person who sells stock for $10,000 denies himself or herself the opportunity to sell the stock for a higher price (say $12,000) in the future, inheriting an opportunity cost equal to the future price of $12,000 (and not the future price minus the sale price). Note that in this case, the opportunity cost can only be determined in hindsight.
An organization that invests $1 million in acquiring a new asset instead of spending that money on maintaining its existing asset portfolio incurs the increased risk of failure of its existing assets. The opportunity cost of the decision to acquire a new asset is the financial security that comes from the organization's spending the money on maintaining its existing asset portfolio.
So as you can see, you don't want a game "where people can decide what they want to do".
You want a game where people are FORCED to lose XP to chat.
And that's ok, but it's silly to say you want that game for me, and for you.
You're just saying you want the game YOU like, and you don't care what I like. That's fine, but it's not really about "choice", is it?
Not everyone is focused solely on XP gain. Even of those who are only playing to maximize their leveling, there are still plenty would would prefer to level at their own pace. Downtime means you have to level at the preprogrammed pace. No downtime allows the players to step back and take a break when - or if - they choose to. Choice is awesome.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
No downtime in a game for me please. Downtime is a waste of gametime. If i would like to socialize or chat i go outside or rather join a glorified chatroom.
If I had more time to play, like i did back when I played EQ, I would be all for lots of downtime. It added to the community (it was important to make friends with healers and enchanters or you will be sitting around longer) and wasn't really noticable because there was stuff to do and talk about while you were meditating. Good groups didn't have much downtime, so that was incentive to get a nice balanced group to work with. But at the same time, unbalanced groups could be fun also and were often more challenging.
Now that I have barely 10 hours a week to devote to gaming, downtime is definitely more of a burden.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
FFXI gives you exp bonus for killing mobs in quick succession ("Experience chains"). If you slow down the party and break the chain, the other guys in the party aren't going to like you very much.
Yes, but you will always have one or two players trying to rush along. That sort of limits the ability for a player to take it easy and move at their own pace. In my opinion the forced downtime was a way to regulate progression and inspire player interaction beyond combat. Not saying you are wrong, but don't pretend like having the option to have downtime would mean anyone would opt for that over instant gratification.
EQ didn't have forced downtime. If you were able to get a good balanced group together, there was rarely any downtime at all. That means there were rewards for being able to get a good balanced group together. It could be difficult to do, but that was part of the risk vs. reward in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Downtime doesn't affect rate of leveling.
I can give you 1 million XP per mob, or 1 xp per mob, with or without downtime.
I agree that Choice is awesome!
To be able to choose to play a game with downtime, or a game without downtime would be an awesome choice for players to have!
Forcing EVERYONE to play a game with zero downtime?
Where's the "choice" you were advocating?
Play the game I like, and that's your choice!
I think I'd prefer real choice instead.
First off, What is your deffinition of 'Downtime'?
Some people consider the rest period between battles as downtime, while others may see non-combat (well, non XP/Skill gain) activities as a form of downtime.
If you meant the rest period between battles (sitting to gain mana, HP, stam or whatnot) then I would have to say not that much for me. While I like being able to stop for a minute and get feeling back in my fingers, go to the bathroom, etc I don't want/like a forced rest break every other kill.
If you meant social downtime activities (other than questing/combat/gains) like mini games or fishing, then I would say as much as possible.
Thing is, in a game like WoW where there is no real need to sit between fights, players still have the option of taking a break. The downside is that a lot of players would rather just rush through a dungeon and be done with it, leaving little time for others to rest.
With old EQ style downtime, people could rest after each fight but after about 2 hours of play it sometimes felt like you weren't getting anywhere or accomplished much. And there really wasn't much choice for the player in taht respect.
As far as my choice, I would rather have fast combat as well as a ton of social downtime options (cause progression is really just a fraction of the fun). Some days I want to gain a level or two and maybe some gear, other days I want to just sit on the docks and fish while listening to music or an audio book and chat with people and relax (specially when its either nasty cold and damp outside or hazy hot and humid).
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"