If there is no downtime, and you choose to chat, you are losing XP.
Not everyone is focused solely on XP gain. Even of those who are only playing to maximize their leveling, there are still plenty would would prefer to level at their own pace. Downtime means you have to level at the preprogrammed pace. No downtime allows the players to step back and take a break when - or if - they choose to. Choice is awesome.
Downtime doesn't affect rate of leveling.
I can give you 1 million XP per mob, or 1 xp per mob, with or without downtime.
I agree that Choice is awesome!
To be able to choose to play a game with downtime, or a game without downtime would be an awesome choice for players to have!
Forcing EVERYONE to play a game with zero downtime?
Where's the "choice" you were advocating?
Play the game I like, and that's your choice!
I think I'd prefer real choice instead.
I'm not sure how you concluded that a static preset downtime duration and internval gives you more choice than being able to choose when and how long, if at all, you wish to pause. Whatever floats your boat, though.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If there is no downtime, and you choose to chat, you are losing XP.
Not everyone is focused solely on XP gain. Even of those who are only playing to maximize their leveling, there are still plenty would would prefer to level at their own pace. Downtime means you have to level at the preprogrammed pace. No downtime allows the players to step back and take a break when - or if - they choose to. Choice is awesome.
Downtime doesn't affect rate of leveling.
I can give you 1 million XP per mob, or 1 xp per mob, with or without downtime.
I agree that Choice is awesome!
To be able to choose to play a game with downtime, or a game without downtime would be an awesome choice for players to have!
Forcing EVERYONE to play a game with zero downtime?
Where's the "choice" you were advocating?
Play the game I like, and that's your choice!
I think I'd prefer real choice instead.
I'm not sure how you concluded that a static preset downtime duration and internval gives you more choice than being able to choose when and how long, if at all, you wish to pause. Whatever floats your boat, though.
Oh, that's quite simple.
There are two games.
One has zero downtime.
One has some downtime.
I can now choose between the two games. That is "choice". The players that like ZERO downtime can play that game, the players that like some downtime can play that game.
No choice would be only one game design, zero downtime, and every player MUST play a game with zero downtime.
IMO, what you are missing is that the game with ZERO downtime does not give you the choice to pause, without the opportunity cost of losing xp while you pause.
You cannot "choose" to do something without losing xp.
You might like that. Which is fine, different people like different things. But it's not more of a "choice", because as you can see you are forced to lose xp when you chat.
Where is the choice to chat, and not lose xp while you do it?
You discount that choice, because you're not interested in it.
But that doesn't make it less of a choice.
I want to be a ble to choose to chat, without losing XP. Where is that choice in your design? It doesn't exist. So much for "choice" being the real issue.
It's just a preference for game design, nothing to do with "choice".
Maybe I'm just old, but I prefer some down time. Not crazy downtime like EQ1, but something akin to DAOC. It seems today's set of gamers want everything in Arena style. Give them a 15-20 minute session and then they are done. It doesn't matter if its PvP or instanced dungeons. At least the last time I tried out WoW that was the feeling. Run through each instance as fast as possible.
It doesn't have to be about XP loss, although I can understand that as a motivator as stated by the original poster. Maybe it was originally XP motivated, but at end game it is still the same. Content must be steam rolled without wasting a second. For me there is not much enjoyment in that style. When the entire goal is to complete the instance in as little time as possible. Games like WoW even give you achievements for killing bosses in under a certain time. I would love to say that games like LOTRO have a better social pace. However, the last instance I did there was very similiar. Rush to the end. LOTRO wasn't always that way, which was one of the reasons I loved it. You felt like you were in a world, not an arena with a time limit.
I think too many people in this thread are getting caught up on the XP debate over choice versus no choice. Whoever posted about losing XP was actually pretty spot on, in a generic overall sort of way. Let's say in the no-downtime game you need to kill 10 mobs back to back to level once. In the downtime game you need to kill 8 mobs to level once. However, in both situations it takes exactly the same amount of time. When you look at this from a broader point of view you understand that the no-downtime game fosters constant action. It is just part of the game. If you do decide to take a break then you accept that you are not getting all the rewards during your break. The down-time game forces you to take small breaks (depending on the length of downtime this can be seen as very cumbersome.) However, it fosters a less intense action cycle.
At least that is the way I see both games. One high-paced action = rewards, the other steady action = reward. You can jog your way to the finish line or sprint. I prefer to jog. Sure the sprinters can rest once they get there, but did they actually take the time to view the country side on the way? Sometimes the journey is just as fun as the finish.
I'm all for choice though. Play what you like to play. I enjoy the RPG part of mmorpgs, but I also enjoy my short battles in FPS.
If there is no downtime, and you choose to chat, you are losing XP.
Not everyone is focused solely on XP gain. Even of those who are only playing to maximize their leveling, there are still plenty would would prefer to level at their own pace. Downtime means you have to level at the preprogrammed pace. No downtime allows the players to step back and take a break when - or if - they choose to. Choice is awesome.
Downtime doesn't affect rate of leveling.
I can give you 1 million XP per mob, or 1 xp per mob, with or without downtime.
I agree that Choice is awesome!
To be able to choose to play a game with downtime, or a game without downtime would be an awesome choice for players to have!
Forcing EVERYONE to play a game with zero downtime?
Where's the "choice" you were advocating?
Play the game I like, and that's your choice!
I think I'd prefer real choice instead.
I'm not sure how you concluded that a static preset downtime duration and internval gives you more choice than being able to choose when and how long, if at all, you wish to pause. Whatever floats your boat, though.
Oh, that's quite simple.
There are two games.
One has zero downtime.
One has some downtime.
I can now choose between the two games. That is "choice". The players that like ZERO downtime can play that game, the players that like some downtime can play that game.
No choice would be only one game design, zero downtime, and every player MUST play a game with zero downtime.
IMO, what you are missing is that the game with ZERO downtime does not give you the choice to pause, without the opportunity cost of losing xp while you pause.
You cannot "choose" to do something without losing xp.
You might like that. Which is fine, different people like different things. But it's not more of a "choice", because as you can see you are forced to lose xp when you chat.
Where is the choice to chat, and not lose xp while you do it?
You discount that choice, because you're not interested in it.
But that doesn't make it less of a choice.
I want to be a ble to choose to chat, without losing XP. Where is that choice in your design? It doesn't exist. So much for "choice" being the real issue.
It's just a preference for game design, nothing to do with "choice".
That seems like an entirely different scenario than what people are discussing. I was under the impression that the poll and the discussion were referring to within a game and not across the genre. I don't think anyone would argue separate games would offer choice. Within a game, however I don't see how one could argue that player determined downtime offers less choice than having the length and interval of the downtime determined by game mechanics.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I agree that some players will enjoy a game with downtime, and some players will enjoy a game with zero downtime.
that's why choice is good, and it's nice to be able to play different games.
I'm just showing you that the only way to have real choice, is different games.
Anything else is just advocating for what you like.
And there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but it's silly to advocate for what you like, and then argue that everyone else should ilke it too, or state that YOUR design, the one you like, is actually the best for EVERYONE, becaues YOUR design gives everyone a "choice" blah, blah, blah.
It's always the best for YOU, and the "choice" is always playing a game that has the features YOU like, but no one game can be the best for everyone.
I wonder .. do you play WOW? Do you play games that have little or no down-time?
The thing is .. a game with NO DOWN-TIME includes down-time because you can always sit on ur butt and do nothing. So by defintion it is a better design because it serves BOTH kind of players (those who like down-time and those who don't).
You an always log off and not play. that's not what we are talking about when we use the term "downtime".
City of Heroes, for example, has little or no downtime.
EQ, for example, had long downtimes.
We're talking about something differerent from simply logging off and not playing the game, or leaving the running on your computer, and not playing it.
"By definition" a better game is the one you think is fun.
You think no downtime is fun. That's fine, and I would never tell you what you think is fun.
I think a game with some downtime is fun.
You're telling me you know what is fun for me and every other gamer on the planet, and we all have to like and have fun with exactly the same games YOU like? Seriously?
Then what is down-time? I am not telling you what is fun to play. I am telling you, if you want down-time, you CAN HAVE IT in a no down-time game.
Take EQ as an example. Down-time is sitting on the ground for 10 min between fight. You CAN do that in WOW, which has no down-time.
I don't know what is fun for you. But if you say sitting down for 10 min is fun .. i will grant you that. I am saying you CAN do that in WOW, and every single other MMO with the feature to "sit".
I don't think he is refering to sitting down as being fun. Look at my last post about broadened view. When a game doesn't require any downtime between fights, then in essence the game promotes faster paced action. You can rest when you want, but the game by design promotes killing quickly and moving on to the next kill. Character rest is not required. Player rest is optional. A game with some down time, promotes a little resting. Even if it is only 15 seconds between mob pulls, it slows down your pulling. That type of game promotes a more steady pace. Character rest is required, player rest is still optional.
Edit: Then again maybe I have no clue what the OP is stating. This is just my view. I prefer a game with a steady pace. Those usually have a small amount of downtime. It is just the nature of those games. Huge downtime is a turn off, as is fast paced non-stop action. To me, that just promotes the arena mentality (do everything as fast as possible, don't talk, just rush through the content.)
I agree that some players will enjoy a game with downtime, and some players will enjoy a game with zero downtime.
that's why choice is good, and it's nice to be able to play different games.
I'm just showing you that the only way to have real choice, is different games.
Anything else is just advocating for what you like.
And there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but it's silly to advocate for what you like, and then argue that everyone else should ilke it too, or state that YOUR design, the one you like, is actually the best for EVERYONE, becaues YOUR design gives everyone a "choice" blah, blah, blah.
It's always the best for YOU, and the "choice" is always playing a game that has the features YOU like, but no one game can be the best for everyone.
I wonder .. do you play WOW? Do you play games that have little or no down-time?
The thing is .. a game with NO DOWN-TIME includes down-time because you can always sit on ur butt and do nothing. So by defintion it is a better design because it serves BOTH kind of players (those who like down-time and those who don't).
You an always log off and not play. that's not what we are talking about when we use the term "downtime".
City of Heroes, for example, has little or no downtime.
EQ, for example, had long downtimes.
We're talking about something differerent from simply logging off and not playing the game, or leaving the running on your computer, and not playing it.
"By definition" a better game is the one you think is fun.
You think no downtime is fun. That's fine, and I would never tell you what you think is fun.
I think a game with some downtime is fun.
You're telling me you know what is fun for me and every other gamer on the planet, and we all have to like and have fun with exactly the same games YOU like? Seriously?
Then what is down-time? I am not telling you what is fun to play. I am telling you, if you want down-time, you CAN HAVE IT in a no down-time game.
Take EQ as an example. Down-time is sitting on the ground for 10 min between fight. You CAN do that in WOW, which has no down-time.
I don't know what is fun for you. But if you say sitting down for 10 min is fun .. i will grant you that. I am saying you CAN do that in WOW, and every single other MMO with the feature to "sit".
Downtime means not being able to make XP.
When you sit on the ground in WoW, you are able to get up and make XP.
When you were regaining health in EQ, you were not able to get up and make XP. If you attacked a mob you would die.
I don't think he is refering to sitting down as being fun. Look at my last post about broadened view. When a game doesn't require any downtime between fights, then in essence the game promotes faster paced action. You can rest when you want, but the game by design promotes killing quickly and moving on to the next kill. Character rest is not required. Player rest is optional. A game with some down time, promotes a little resting. Even if it is only 15 seconds between mob pulls, it slows down your pulling. That type of game promotes a more steady pace. Character rest is required, player rest is still optional.
Edit: Then again maybe I have no clue what the OP is stating. This is just my view. I prefer a game with a steady pace. Those usually have a small amount of downtime. It is just the nature of those games. Huge downtime is a turn off, as is fast paced non-stop action. To me, that just promotes the arena mentality (do everything as fast as possible, don't talk, just rush through the content.)
That's an aspect of what I'm talking about.
Take your favorite movie. Let's try something almost everyone is familiar with, Star Wars.
What if the movie didn't have any scenes, like Luke talking to Obi Wan in the cave, and learning about his father.
Instead the entire movie was one light sabre battle after another, non-stop for 2 hours.
Would that make the movie a lot better? Or by the end would you just be sick of light sabre battles?
Did you see the last Transformers movie?
By the end I was thinking, OMG! I'm going to puke if I have to watch one more Transformer Transform.
I thought the amount of downtime in EQ was just right...
This has been quoted as few times but i totally agree... EQ had some downtime but it wasn't overwhelming. As an adult I get pulled in a lot of different directions at times and a game with some downtime makes it easier for me to play. Eve has too much ... WoW has not enough.
When you sit on the ground in WoW, you are able to get up and make XP.
When you were regaining health in EQ, you were not able to get up and make XP. If you attacked a mob you would die.
Therefore, "sitting" in WoW is not downtime.
That is a silly definition.
You mean it is down-time when i am collecting herbs? I am not making xp then.
You mean 100% of my play time is down-time when I reach level 80 in WOW or max level in EQ? I am not making xp after L80.
You are defining things weirdly to suit your arguments.
Sitting down is sitting down. Then let me be clear. I don't care what you call it. If you want to be sitting down doing nothing in the game, you can CHOOSE to do so in WOW, and you are forced to do so in EQ. In either case, you are not making xp, gold or whatever sitting down .. you are doing NOTHING (except of course you can chat in your chat windows).
If you want to call that "sitting down" instead of "down-time" ... be my guest.
I don't think he is refering to sitting down as being fun. Look at my last post about broadened view. When a game doesn't require any downtime between fights, then in essence the game promotes faster paced action. You can rest when you want, but the game by design promotes killing quickly and moving on to the next kill. Character rest is not required. Player rest is optional. A game with some down time, promotes a little resting. Even if it is only 15 seconds between mob pulls, it slows down your pulling. That type of game promotes a more steady pace. Character rest is required, player rest is still optional.
Edit: Then again maybe I have no clue what the OP is stating. This is just my view. I prefer a game with a steady pace. Those usually have a small amount of downtime. It is just the nature of those games. Huge downtime is a turn off, as is fast paced non-stop action. To me, that just promotes the arena mentality (do everything as fast as possible, don't talk, just rush through the content.)
That's an aspect of what I'm talking about.
Take your favorite movie. Let's try something almost everyone is familiar with, Star Wars.
What if the movie didn't have any scenes, like Luke talking to Obi Wan in the cave, and learning about his father.
Instead the entire movie was one light sabre battle after another, non-stop for 2 hours.
Would that make the movie a lot better? Or by the end would you just be sick of light sabre battles?
Did you see the last Transformers movie?
By the end I was thinking, OMG! I'm going to puke if I have to watch one more Transformer Transform.
It is not like you don't have a choice of action in a GAME. Movies are not games.
When you sit on the ground in WoW, you are able to get up and make XP.
When you were regaining health in EQ, you were not able to get up and make XP. If you attacked a mob you would die.
Therefore, "sitting" in WoW is not downtime.
That is a silly definition.
You mean it is down-time when i am collecting herbs? I am not making xp then.
You mean 100% of my play time is down-time when I reach level 80 in WOW or max level in EQ? I am not making xp after L80.
You are defining things weirdly to suit your arguments.
Sitting down is sitting down. Then let me be clear. I don't care what you call it. If you want to be sitting down doing nothing in the game, you can CHOOSE to do so in WOW, and you are forced to do so in EQ. In either case, you are not making xp, gold or whatever sitting down .. you are doing NOTHING (except of course you can chat in your chat windows).
If you want to call that "sitting down" instead of "down-time" ... be my guest.
This argument tends to remind me of a person with OCD who cannot stop themselves from doing certain things. If they have a choice to do those things or not do them, they will always do them since they cannot help themselves.
If I am given a choice to get XP for my character but do not feel like it then I will not get the XP. Ihmotepp seems unable to make that choice and has to be 'restrained' by game mechanics.
At first I thought this was a nice break from the solo vs. group threads that generally get started. Then I realized, that this is simply another way of having the same debate. Most of those who are arguing for forced downtime are talking about socializing, and this implies that they are in a group or guild to be socializing with. Thus we have the "groupers" side, and on the other hand we have those who want more action and less talking, and I would be willing to bet that we'd find more who choose to solo in that camp.
Also, where did this downtime/xp loss come from? This implies that there can be no downtime once max level is reached because, well you don't gain xp anymore. Maybe the whole game is downtime after that? The game most fondly remembered for downtime seems to be EQ and in that game the only time I had downtime was when I soloed, so I wasn't exactly using it to socialize. Otherwize with a good group there was no downtime.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Originally posted by Ihmotepp
Downtime means not being able to make XP. When you sit on the ground in WoW, you are able to get up and make XP. When you were regaining health in EQ, you were not able to get up and make XP. If you attacked a mob you would die. Therefore, "sitting" in WoW is not downtime.
That is a silly definition. You mean it is down-time when i am collecting herbs? I am not making xp then. You mean 100% of my play time is down-time when I reach level 80 in WOW or max level in EQ? I am not making xp after L80. You are defining things weirdly to suit your arguments. Sitting down is sitting down. Then let me be clear. I don't care what you call it. If you want to be sitting down doing nothing in the game, you can CHOOSE to do so in WOW, and you are forced to do so in EQ. In either case, you are not making xp, gold or whatever sitting down .. you are doing NOTHING (except of course you can chat in your chat windows). If you want to call that "sitting down" instead of "down-time" ... be my guest.
The word downtime can be conscrewed to mean almost anything. However, in the way I see it in this situation it is a forced stopping of gameplay. Just king grinding, the only time downtime is used right is when no one realizes it as down time. IE in SWG you had wounds that built up that needed a camp and an entertainer to remove. It didn't feel like the game was trying to stop me from playing. It just felt like another part of the game. However, in say Aion, when I need to sit down to regen my mana it felt like the game is trying to stop me.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
When you sit on the ground in WoW, you are able to get up and make XP.
When you were regaining health in EQ, you were not able to get up and make XP. If you attacked a mob you would die.
Therefore, "sitting" in WoW is not downtime.
That is a silly definition.
You mean it is down-time when i am collecting herbs? I am not making xp then.
You mean 100% of my play time is down-time when I reach level 80 in WOW or max level in EQ? I am not making xp after L80.
You are defining things weirdly to suit your arguments.
Sitting down is sitting down. Then let me be clear. I don't care what you call it. If you want to be sitting down doing nothing in the game, you can CHOOSE to do so in WOW, and you are forced to do so in EQ. In either case, you are not making xp, gold or whatever sitting down .. you are doing NOTHING (except of course you can chat in your chat windows).
If you want to call that "sitting down" instead of "down-time" ... be my guest.
You are getting warmer, almost scalding right now, to the main point.
In a game like WOW, when the choice is given as you suggest, 99/100 times the choice will be for the group to skip the chatting part and just keep pulling. Makes the gameplay nothing more than a relentless grind and there's little social interaction. Outside of major raid enounters, how often in a PUG dungeon in WOW have gone through the entire place and said little more to your group mates than , Pull, Heal, Ready, I need that loot for my Rogue etc.
This rarely happened in a game like DAOC. After a particularly strong camp pull people had to sit down and rest for a few minutes, which lead of course to social interaction and much fun.
Didn't matter if you were in a guild, or a PUG, there was always far more socialization in this situation which lead to better community overall. (IMO)
That's why its important for game mechanics to encourage (OK, force) players to stop a minute or so and catch their breath, its what the early games strived for but has been largely lost by the solo play mentatlity of today's games
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
When you sit on the ground in WoW, you are able to get up and make XP.
When you were regaining health in EQ, you were not able to get up and make XP. If you attacked a mob you would die.
Therefore, "sitting" in WoW is not downtime.
That is a silly definition.
You mean it is down-time when i am collecting herbs? I am not making xp then.
You mean 100% of my play time is down-time when I reach level 80 in WOW or max level in EQ? I am not making xp after L80.
You are defining things weirdly to suit your arguments.
Sitting down is sitting down. Then let me be clear. I don't care what you call it. If you want to be sitting down doing nothing in the game, you can CHOOSE to do so in WOW, and you are forced to do so in EQ. In either case, you are not making xp, gold or whatever sitting down .. you are doing NOTHING (except of course you can chat in your chat windows).
If you want to call that "sitting down" instead of "down-time" ... be my guest.
You are getting warmer, almost scalding right now, to the main point.
In a game like WOW, when the choice is given as you suggest, 99/100 times the choice will be for the group to skip the chatting part and just keep pulling. Makes the gameplay nothing more than a relentless grind and there's little social interaction. Outside of major raid enounters, how often in a PUG dungeon in WOW have gone through the entire place and said little more to your group mates than , Pull, Heal, Ready, I need that loot for my Rogue etc.
This rarely happened in a game like DAOC. After a particularly strong camp pull people had to sit down and rest for a few minutes, which lead of course to social interaction and much fun.
Didn't matter if you were in a guild, or a PUG, there was always far more socialization in this situation which lead to better community overall. (IMO)
That's why its important for game mechanics to encourage (OK, force) players to stop a minute or so and catch their breath, its what the early games strived for but has been largely lost by the solo play mentatlity of today's games
If people REALLY wanted to rest and chat between fights, they would still be doing it. If people really want downtime they can make downtime. Since as you said 99/100 times people will choose NOT to chat just for the sake of it, maybe thats because the act of chatting with strangers really isn't all that much fun anymore. When I played WOW I played with my guild and we talked the whole time. I chat when I'm driving home from work, or eating dinner with my wife and my kids. To be honest, in a pug I really couldn't care less what Obiwan1234 has to say, what his favorite color is or what he's drinking or if its raining where he's living. Honestly, couldn't give a ^%&$* about his personal life.;) DO I want to play with mutes? Nope. They have to say something. But if I'm paying to play a game, I want to play the game. If I'm chatting, what the heck am I doing killing dragons for? I didn't pay for a glorified chat room.
Does forcing people to sit and hold hands and talk create community? Of course. Will I play a game that forces me to sit around and do nothing for extended periods of time? Hell no. I have better things to do. if I have an hour or maybe two to play at the end of the night(average for a working adult with a family), there is no way in hell I'll spend a major portion of that time doing nothing but chatting. I really see zero value in it, since I'm not looking for long lasting relationships in a videogame I may or may not be playing a month from now.
At first I thought this was a nice break from the solo vs. group threads that generally get started. Then I realized, that this is simply another way of having the same debate.
You've been duped!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What you have to remember is we're talking about downtime in MMORPG's. Note the RPG part of that. You're supposed to be playing a character with their own personal abilities, be that fighting or throwing spells. People can't do something non-stop until they're bored, especially something strenuous such as fighting, people need to take a break to have a rest, get their stamina back, catch a breath, whatever it might be. That's what downtime is, it's a moment to recuperate your stamina and, in the case of wizard classes, their magical energies.
Some MMORPG's might get away with little to no downtime, such as Superhero games, but when you're talking about normal people we really have to take the RPG into consideration and say that "No, this isn't an arcade game where I can blast and shoot and kick my way through everything, my character just isn't capable of feats of that magnitude.".
I'm sure I'll get replies of, "It's just a game..", but it's also a roleplay game. Remember that fact.
When you sit on the ground in WoW, you are able to get up and make XP.
When you were regaining health in EQ, you were not able to get up and make XP. If you attacked a mob you would die.
Therefore, "sitting" in WoW is not downtime.
That is a silly definition.
You mean it is down-time when i am collecting herbs? I am not making xp then.
You mean 100% of my play time is down-time when I reach level 80 in WOW or max level in EQ? I am not making xp after L80.
You are defining things weirdly to suit your arguments.
Sitting down is sitting down. Then let me be clear. I don't care what you call it. If you want to be sitting down doing nothing in the game, you can CHOOSE to do so in WOW, and you are forced to do so in EQ. In either case, you are not making xp, gold or whatever sitting down .. you are doing NOTHING (except of course you can chat in your chat windows).
If you want to call that "sitting down" instead of "down-time" ... be my guest.
You need to read a bit more closely.
I said when you are unable to make xp, not when you are not making xp.
When you are picking herbs, you're able to make xp are you not? You could stop picking herbs and whack mobs instead coulnd't you?
You don't have to do "nothing", you don't have to "sit down" just because you are unable to make xp.
You can discuss what to do next, you can formulate a strategy for the next encounter, you can repair gear, you can buy gear, sell gear, you can travel, you can get a soda, walk the dog, you can talk to an NPC and get a quest, you can craft, you can trade with other players, you can invite another player to join the group.
You can do all those things without having to choose between doing them and making XP, because at the moment, you CANNOT make XP.
When I played WOW I played with my guild and we talked the whole time. I chat when I'm driving home from work, or eating dinner with my wife and my kids. To be honest, in a pug I really couldn't care less what Obiwan1234 has to say, what his favorite color is or what he's drinking or if its raining where he's living. Honestly, couldn't give a ^%&$* about his personal life.;) DO I want to play with mutes? Nope. They have to say something. But if I'm paying to play a game, I want to play the game. If I'm chatting, what the heck am I doing killing dragons for? I didn't pay for a glorified chat room.
And this is what WoW has created, a new generation of MMO players who have no clue what MMO's are all about. WoW brought in single player gamers to a genre that they didn't belong in, and now they've grown bored of WoW, think they like playing MMO's and are looking for a new game to play. They're really in the wrong place, they need to go pick up their single player RPG's and come back when the next solo MMO comes along. SW: TOR looks like it might be ready to take on a few of those people.
If people really want downtime they can make downtime.
only developers can create "downtime".
Downtime means you cannot make XP, not that you choose to stop making XP.
Also "downtime" doesn't mean you have to chat, and it doesn't mean you have to do nothing.
You can travel, you can trade, you can buy gear, you can sell gear, you can talk to an NPC and get a quest, you can talk to an NPC and turn in a quest, you can craft....
Making XP isn't the only thing to do in a game, and just because you can't make XP at the moment, doesn't mean you have to chat.
You can certainly continue playing the game, even though you aren't making XP, and you certainly don't hve to chat with anyone.
At first I thought this was a nice break from the solo vs. group threads that generally get started. Then I realized, that this is simply another way of having the same debate.
You've been duped!
I think downtime is ok in single player games as well as MMORPGs.
For Example, Fallout had downtime in it, you had ot rest in a bed to regain health.
"Resting is used to heal in a safe place without the need to use Stimpaks or healing skills. The player is unable to rest if there are enemies nearby, the player is being irradiated, or if the bed is owned."
When you sit on the ground in WoW, you are able to get up and make XP.
When you were regaining health in EQ, you were not able to get up and make XP. If you attacked a mob you would die.
Therefore, "sitting" in WoW is not downtime.
That is a silly definition.
You mean it is down-time when i am collecting herbs? I am not making xp then.
You mean 100% of my play time is down-time when I reach level 80 in WOW or max level in EQ? I am not making xp after L80.
You are defining things weirdly to suit your arguments.
Sitting down is sitting down. Then let me be clear. I don't care what you call it. If you want to be sitting down doing nothing in the game, you can CHOOSE to do so in WOW, and you are forced to do so in EQ. In either case, you are not making xp, gold or whatever sitting down .. you are doing NOTHING (except of course you can chat in your chat windows).
If you want to call that "sitting down" instead of "down-time" ... be my guest.
You are getting warmer, almost scalding right now, to the main point.
In a game like WOW, when the choice is given as you suggest, 99/100 times the choice will be for the group to skip the chatting part and just keep pulling. Makes the gameplay nothing more than a relentless grind and there's little social interaction. Outside of major raid enounters, how often in a PUG dungeon in WOW have gone through the entire place and said little more to your group mates than , Pull, Heal, Ready, I need that loot for my Rogue etc.
This rarely happened in a game like DAOC. After a particularly strong camp pull people had to sit down and rest for a few minutes, which lead of course to social interaction and much fun.
Didn't matter if you were in a guild, or a PUG, there was always far more socialization in this situation which lead to better community overall. (IMO)
That's why its important for game mechanics to encourage (OK, force) players to stop a minute or so and catch their breath, its what the early games strived for but has been largely lost by the solo play mentatlity of today's games
If people REALLY wanted to rest and chat between fights, they would still be doing it. If people really want downtime they can make downtime. Since as you said 99/100 times people will choose NOT to chat just for the sake of it, maybe thats because the act of chatting with strangers really isn't all that much fun anymore. When I played WOW I played with my guild and we talked the whole time. I chat when I'm driving home from work, or eating dinner with my wife and my kids. To be honest, in a pug I really couldn't care less what Obiwan1234 has to say, what his favorite color is or what he's drinking or if its raining where he's living. Honestly, couldn't give a ^%&$* about his personal life.;) DO I want to play with mutes? Nope. They have to say something. But if I'm paying to play a game, I want to play the game. If I'm chatting, what the heck am I doing killing dragons for? I didn't pay for a glorified chat room.
Does forcing people to sit and hold hands and talk create community? Of course. Will I play a game that forces me to sit around and do nothing for extended periods of time? Hell no. I have better things to do. if I have an hour or maybe two to play at the end of the night(average for a working adult with a family), there is no way in hell I'll spend a major portion of that time doing nothing but chatting. I really see zero value in it, since I'm not looking for long lasting relationships in a videogame I may or may not be playing a month from now.
Then clearly you don't understand why or how it could be fun to interact with 'strangers' who really are not a whole lot different than your guildmates in most case. And I confess, on some nights in MMO's I've done nothing but chat and talk, and killed nothing at all, just how I roll I guess.
As stated several times, the down time mechanics don't appeal to every person (such as yoursefl) so there has to be different games for each of us. We can't co-exist peacefully and get what each of us wants from our MMORPG game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Downtime means you cannot make XP, not that you choose to stop making XP.
Also "downtime" doesn't mean you have to chat, and it doesn't mean you have to do nothing.
Actually, in games like EverQuest, downtime was mixed with fighting. So you'd have, for example, a Fighter dealing with the mobs, an Enchanter keeping adds in check, and a Rogue backstabbing for fast damage. The Wizard would be in his 'downtime' while this was happening, regenerating mana and occasionally throwing off a spell or two to add some damage. The Cleric would also be in 'downtime', also renegerating mana, which was increased by a buff from the Enchanter. If the group was good enough, they could continue along that way almost indefinitely, especially once the area they'd decided to fight at was 'broken' and the respawns came at staggered intervals.
The people in their so-called 'downtime' were chatting quite happily, making XP from the others fighting, and still contributing to the whole experience. There was chat, there was combat, there was a lot of fun. Not a mad arcade game rush of constant killing with no time to pause.
Comments
I'm not sure how you concluded that a static preset downtime duration and internval gives you more choice than being able to choose when and how long, if at all, you wish to pause. Whatever floats your boat, though.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Oh, that's quite simple.
There are two games.
One has zero downtime.
One has some downtime.
I can now choose between the two games. That is "choice". The players that like ZERO downtime can play that game, the players that like some downtime can play that game.
No choice would be only one game design, zero downtime, and every player MUST play a game with zero downtime.
IMO, what you are missing is that the game with ZERO downtime does not give you the choice to pause, without the opportunity cost of losing xp while you pause.
You cannot "choose" to do something without losing xp.
You might like that. Which is fine, different people like different things. But it's not more of a "choice", because as you can see you are forced to lose xp when you chat.
Where is the choice to chat, and not lose xp while you do it?
You discount that choice, because you're not interested in it.
But that doesn't make it less of a choice.
I want to be a ble to choose to chat, without losing XP. Where is that choice in your design? It doesn't exist. So much for "choice" being the real issue.
It's just a preference for game design, nothing to do with "choice".
Down time to let little bars fill up makes me angry.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
Maybe I'm just old, but I prefer some down time. Not crazy downtime like EQ1, but something akin to DAOC. It seems today's set of gamers want everything in Arena style. Give them a 15-20 minute session and then they are done. It doesn't matter if its PvP or instanced dungeons. At least the last time I tried out WoW that was the feeling. Run through each instance as fast as possible.
It doesn't have to be about XP loss, although I can understand that as a motivator as stated by the original poster. Maybe it was originally XP motivated, but at end game it is still the same. Content must be steam rolled without wasting a second. For me there is not much enjoyment in that style. When the entire goal is to complete the instance in as little time as possible. Games like WoW even give you achievements for killing bosses in under a certain time. I would love to say that games like LOTRO have a better social pace. However, the last instance I did there was very similiar. Rush to the end. LOTRO wasn't always that way, which was one of the reasons I loved it. You felt like you were in a world, not an arena with a time limit.
I think too many people in this thread are getting caught up on the XP debate over choice versus no choice. Whoever posted about losing XP was actually pretty spot on, in a generic overall sort of way. Let's say in the no-downtime game you need to kill 10 mobs back to back to level once. In the downtime game you need to kill 8 mobs to level once. However, in both situations it takes exactly the same amount of time. When you look at this from a broader point of view you understand that the no-downtime game fosters constant action. It is just part of the game. If you do decide to take a break then you accept that you are not getting all the rewards during your break. The down-time game forces you to take small breaks (depending on the length of downtime this can be seen as very cumbersome.) However, it fosters a less intense action cycle.
At least that is the way I see both games. One high-paced action = rewards, the other steady action = reward. You can jog your way to the finish line or sprint. I prefer to jog. Sure the sprinters can rest once they get there, but did they actually take the time to view the country side on the way? Sometimes the journey is just as fun as the finish.
I'm all for choice though. Play what you like to play. I enjoy the RPG part of mmorpgs, but I also enjoy my short battles in FPS.
That seems like an entirely different scenario than what people are discussing. I was under the impression that the poll and the discussion were referring to within a game and not across the genre. I don't think anyone would argue separate games would offer choice. Within a game, however I don't see how one could argue that player determined downtime offers less choice than having the length and interval of the downtime determined by game mechanics.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Then what is down-time? I am not telling you what is fun to play. I am telling you, if you want down-time, you CAN HAVE IT in a no down-time game.
Take EQ as an example. Down-time is sitting on the ground for 10 min between fight. You CAN do that in WOW, which has no down-time.
I don't know what is fun for you. But if you say sitting down for 10 min is fun .. i will grant you that. I am saying you CAN do that in WOW, and every single other MMO with the feature to "sit".
I don't think he is refering to sitting down as being fun. Look at my last post about broadened view. When a game doesn't require any downtime between fights, then in essence the game promotes faster paced action. You can rest when you want, but the game by design promotes killing quickly and moving on to the next kill. Character rest is not required. Player rest is optional. A game with some down time, promotes a little resting. Even if it is only 15 seconds between mob pulls, it slows down your pulling. That type of game promotes a more steady pace. Character rest is required, player rest is still optional.
Edit: Then again maybe I have no clue what the OP is stating. This is just my view. I prefer a game with a steady pace. Those usually have a small amount of downtime. It is just the nature of those games. Huge downtime is a turn off, as is fast paced non-stop action. To me, that just promotes the arena mentality (do everything as fast as possible, don't talk, just rush through the content.)
Downtime means not being able to make XP.
When you sit on the ground in WoW, you are able to get up and make XP.
When you were regaining health in EQ, you were not able to get up and make XP. If you attacked a mob you would die.
Therefore, "sitting" in WoW is not downtime.
That's an aspect of what I'm talking about.
Take your favorite movie. Let's try something almost everyone is familiar with, Star Wars.
What if the movie didn't have any scenes, like Luke talking to Obi Wan in the cave, and learning about his father.
Instead the entire movie was one light sabre battle after another, non-stop for 2 hours.
Would that make the movie a lot better? Or by the end would you just be sick of light sabre battles?
Did you see the last Transformers movie?
By the end I was thinking, OMG! I'm going to puke if I have to watch one more Transformer Transform.
This has been quoted as few times but i totally agree... EQ had some downtime but it wasn't overwhelming. As an adult I get pulled in a lot of different directions at times and a game with some downtime makes it easier for me to play. Eve has too much ... WoW has not enough.
That is a silly definition.
You mean it is down-time when i am collecting herbs? I am not making xp then.
You mean 100% of my play time is down-time when I reach level 80 in WOW or max level in EQ? I am not making xp after L80.
You are defining things weirdly to suit your arguments.
Sitting down is sitting down. Then let me be clear. I don't care what you call it. If you want to be sitting down doing nothing in the game, you can CHOOSE to do so in WOW, and you are forced to do so in EQ. In either case, you are not making xp, gold or whatever sitting down .. you are doing NOTHING (except of course you can chat in your chat windows).
If you want to call that "sitting down" instead of "down-time" ... be my guest.
It is not like you don't have a choice of action in a GAME. Movies are not games.
This argument tends to remind me of a person with OCD who cannot stop themselves from doing certain things. If they have a choice to do those things or not do them, they will always do them since they cannot help themselves.
If I am given a choice to get XP for my character but do not feel like it then I will not get the XP. Ihmotepp seems unable to make that choice and has to be 'restrained' by game mechanics.
At first I thought this was a nice break from the solo vs. group threads that generally get started. Then I realized, that this is simply another way of having the same debate. Most of those who are arguing for forced downtime are talking about socializing, and this implies that they are in a group or guild to be socializing with. Thus we have the "groupers" side, and on the other hand we have those who want more action and less talking, and I would be willing to bet that we'd find more who choose to solo in that camp.
Also, where did this downtime/xp loss come from? This implies that there can be no downtime once max level is reached because, well you don't gain xp anymore. Maybe the whole game is downtime after that? The game most fondly remembered for downtime seems to be EQ and in that game the only time I had downtime was when I soloed, so I wasn't exactly using it to socialize. Otherwize with a good group there was no downtime.
You mean it is down-time when i am collecting herbs? I am not making xp then.
You mean 100% of my play time is down-time when I reach level 80 in WOW or max level in EQ? I am not making xp after L80.
You are defining things weirdly to suit your arguments.
Sitting down is sitting down. Then let me be clear. I don't care what you call it. If you want to be sitting down doing nothing in the game, you can CHOOSE to do so in WOW, and you are forced to do so in EQ. In either case, you are not making xp, gold or whatever sitting down .. you are doing NOTHING (except of course you can chat in your chat windows).
If you want to call that "sitting down" instead of "down-time" ... be my guest.
The word downtime can be conscrewed to mean almost anything. However, in the way I see it in this situation it is a forced stopping of gameplay. Just king grinding, the only time downtime is used right is when no one realizes it as down time. IE in SWG you had wounds that built up that needed a camp and an entertainer to remove. It didn't feel like the game was trying to stop me from playing. It just felt like another part of the game. However, in say Aion, when I need to sit down to regen my mana it felt like the game is trying to stop me.
Sent me an email if you want me to mail you some pizza rolls.
You are getting warmer, almost scalding right now, to the main point.
In a game like WOW, when the choice is given as you suggest, 99/100 times the choice will be for the group to skip the chatting part and just keep pulling. Makes the gameplay nothing more than a relentless grind and there's little social interaction. Outside of major raid enounters, how often in a PUG dungeon in WOW have gone through the entire place and said little more to your group mates than , Pull, Heal, Ready, I need that loot for my Rogue etc.
This rarely happened in a game like DAOC. After a particularly strong camp pull people had to sit down and rest for a few minutes, which lead of course to social interaction and much fun.
Didn't matter if you were in a guild, or a PUG, there was always far more socialization in this situation which lead to better community overall. (IMO)
That's why its important for game mechanics to encourage (OK, force) players to stop a minute or so and catch their breath, its what the early games strived for but has been largely lost by the solo play mentatlity of today's games
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If people REALLY wanted to rest and chat between fights, they would still be doing it. If people really want downtime they can make downtime. Since as you said 99/100 times people will choose NOT to chat just for the sake of it, maybe thats because the act of chatting with strangers really isn't all that much fun anymore. When I played WOW I played with my guild and we talked the whole time. I chat when I'm driving home from work, or eating dinner with my wife and my kids. To be honest, in a pug I really couldn't care less what Obiwan1234 has to say, what his favorite color is or what he's drinking or if its raining where he's living. Honestly, couldn't give a ^%&$* about his personal life.;) DO I want to play with mutes? Nope. They have to say something. But if I'm paying to play a game, I want to play the game. If I'm chatting, what the heck am I doing killing dragons for? I didn't pay for a glorified chat room.
Does forcing people to sit and hold hands and talk create community? Of course. Will I play a game that forces me to sit around and do nothing for extended periods of time? Hell no. I have better things to do. if I have an hour or maybe two to play at the end of the night(average for a working adult with a family), there is no way in hell I'll spend a major portion of that time doing nothing but chatting. I really see zero value in it, since I'm not looking for long lasting relationships in a videogame I may or may not be playing a month from now.
You've been duped!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
What you have to remember is we're talking about downtime in MMORPG's. Note the RPG part of that. You're supposed to be playing a character with their own personal abilities, be that fighting or throwing spells. People can't do something non-stop until they're bored, especially something strenuous such as fighting, people need to take a break to have a rest, get their stamina back, catch a breath, whatever it might be. That's what downtime is, it's a moment to recuperate your stamina and, in the case of wizard classes, their magical energies.
Some MMORPG's might get away with little to no downtime, such as Superhero games, but when you're talking about normal people we really have to take the RPG into consideration and say that "No, this isn't an arcade game where I can blast and shoot and kick my way through everything, my character just isn't capable of feats of that magnitude.".
I'm sure I'll get replies of, "It's just a game..", but it's also a roleplay game. Remember that fact.
You need to read a bit more closely.
I said when you are unable to make xp, not when you are not making xp.
When you are picking herbs, you're able to make xp are you not? You could stop picking herbs and whack mobs instead coulnd't you?
You don't have to do "nothing", you don't have to "sit down" just because you are unable to make xp.
You can discuss what to do next, you can formulate a strategy for the next encounter, you can repair gear, you can buy gear, sell gear, you can travel, you can get a soda, walk the dog, you can talk to an NPC and get a quest, you can craft, you can trade with other players, you can invite another player to join the group.
You can do all those things without having to choose between doing them and making XP, because at the moment, you CANNOT make XP.
How is that "doing nothing" or "sitting down"?
And this is what WoW has created, a new generation of MMO players who have no clue what MMO's are all about. WoW brought in single player gamers to a genre that they didn't belong in, and now they've grown bored of WoW, think they like playing MMO's and are looking for a new game to play. They're really in the wrong place, they need to go pick up their single player RPG's and come back when the next solo MMO comes along. SW: TOR looks like it might be ready to take on a few of those people.
only developers can create "downtime".
Downtime means you cannot make XP, not that you choose to stop making XP.
Also "downtime" doesn't mean you have to chat, and it doesn't mean you have to do nothing.
You can travel, you can trade, you can buy gear, you can sell gear, you can talk to an NPC and get a quest, you can talk to an NPC and turn in a quest, you can craft....
Making XP isn't the only thing to do in a game, and just because you can't make XP at the moment, doesn't mean you have to chat.
You can certainly continue playing the game, even though you aren't making XP, and you certainly don't hve to chat with anyone.
I think downtime is ok in single player games as well as MMORPGs.
For Example, Fallout had downtime in it, you had ot rest in a bed to regain health.
"Resting is used to heal in a safe place without the need to use Stimpaks or healing skills. The player is unable to rest if there are enemies nearby, the player is being irradiated, or if the bed is owned."
Then clearly you don't understand why or how it could be fun to interact with 'strangers' who really are not a whole lot different than your guildmates in most case. And I confess, on some nights in MMO's I've done nothing but chat and talk, and killed nothing at all, just how I roll I guess.
As stated several times, the down time mechanics don't appeal to every person (such as yoursefl) so there has to be different games for each of us. We can't co-exist peacefully and get what each of us wants from our MMORPG game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Actually, in games like EverQuest, downtime was mixed with fighting. So you'd have, for example, a Fighter dealing with the mobs, an Enchanter keeping adds in check, and a Rogue backstabbing for fast damage. The Wizard would be in his 'downtime' while this was happening, regenerating mana and occasionally throwing off a spell or two to add some damage. The Cleric would also be in 'downtime', also renegerating mana, which was increased by a buff from the Enchanter. If the group was good enough, they could continue along that way almost indefinitely, especially once the area they'd decided to fight at was 'broken' and the respawns came at staggered intervals.
The people in their so-called 'downtime' were chatting quite happily, making XP from the others fighting, and still contributing to the whole experience. There was chat, there was combat, there was a lot of fun. Not a mad arcade game rush of constant killing with no time to pause.