The scary part of no subscription fee is that all they really need to focus on before they release it is the playability for the first 60 days. If it is fun for that time, others will buy, etc.
But since there is no subscription fee, they really won't care who stays or who goes after the first couple of months. Makes you start thinking about how much thought was really put into endgame, doesn't it?
I love the professed ideas on this site the no sub=no fun/support/quality/etc. How brainwashed do you have to be to think that buying a box and spending a monthly fee (in my worldview it's like buying a home, paying cash for it, then having the builder/bank charging you rent!). The sub system WITH purchased anything is going to be dead if the player base ever figures this out. I would play a sub based game IF the company wasn't charging the box price.
In the original guild wars, on first release, you still got some bug fixes and minor balancing, but there was no additional content to speak of.
What that ended up being was stale gameplay after the first couple months, the only players still interested were the ones who really enjoyed the PvP.
By Sept. of the release year, roughly 4-5 months after release, Sorrows Furnace went live. (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20050907) I think that was a pretty large block of free content to add into a game less than 6 months old. The end of October brought the first Festival.
I have to admit, if you get bored with content so easily, then yes Guild Wars is not for you, apparently it's to easy.;-) So by all means, find a better game for you to play. By Sept, of '05 I hadn't made it to Drok's yet. Had all the quests, and a good grasp of the mechanics, but hadn't found a guild yet and was still learning about the game by myself. There are many reasons to enjoy these games, just understand that your judgement of 'stale' could very well convince others to not even try what I consider to be a great game!
The scary part of no subscription fee is that all they really need to focus on before they release it is the playability for the first 60 days. If it is fun for that time, others will buy, etc.
But since there is no subscription fee, they really won't care who stays or who goes after the first couple of months. Makes you start thinking about how much thought was really put into endgame, doesn't it?
That's not quite true. A person is more likely to buy an expansion if they have spent a large amount of time on the game than if they've spent only a month. Also things like books and other random crap are more likely to be bought buy a player that plays the game often than those that do not.
Besides just look at the game itself personal stories with loads of different possibilities, 1500 events which can be played by any level of character. WvW, structured pvp, dungeons, achievements etc as well as fully developed mini games. It's offering a heck of a lot more end game content than your average p2p mmo this content just wont be mostly grind grind and more grind.
Guild Wars 2, according to the official website, will be highly instanced.
Can you link us to this 'fact' please? Or in the case of 'highly' what do you mean?
I think some people don't realize just how cheap instanced servers are compared to open-world servers. I've never paid to play an FPS online, and yet they all manage to provide servers for years after their release.
I know I've seen a few interviews about this recently, and a post or two in this forum, with ArenaNet Devs stating unequivocably this is also untrue. As soon as I can find a link I will post it here.
I love the professed ideas on this site the no sub=no fun/support/quality/etc. How brainwashed do you have to be to think that buying a box and spending a monthly fee (in my worldview it's like buying a home, paying cash for it, then having the builder/bank charging you rent!). The sub system WITH purchased anything is going to be dead if the player base ever figures this out. I would play a sub based game IF the company wasn't charging the box price.
In the original guild wars, on first release, you still got some bug fixes and minor balancing, but there was no additional content to speak of.
What that ended up being was stale gameplay after the first couple months, the only players still interested were the ones who really enjoyed the PvP.
By Sept. of the release year, roughly 4-5 months after release, Sorrows Furnace went live. (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20050907) I think that was a pretty large block of free content to add into a game less than 6 months old. The end of October brought the first Festival.
I have to admit, if you get bored with content so easily, then yes Guild Wars is not for you, apparently it's to easy.;-) So by all means, find a better game for you to play. By Sept, of '05 I hadn't made it to Drok's yet. Had all the quests, and a good grasp of the mechanics, but hadn't found a guild yet and was still learning about the game by myself. There are many reasons to enjoy these games, just understand that your judgement of 'stale' could very well convince others to not even try what I consider to be a great game!
Understand that the game was great, but it wasn't a lasting greatness. for me Within the first few months there was a small content release, and about a year after the initial release was the next major content release. (holidays shouldn't really count much because they're usually small updates with no real major lasting content)
Take CoH for example. (launched close to the same time) Within the first 3 months they released a new level cap, zones, enemies etc. Next pack 3 months later, Armor pieces, zones, respecs, etc. A few months later, More zones, new archetypes, etc. all free. And years later they still have free content updates, they are up to issue 18 now.
I was constantly subbed, and kept coming back to CoH with all the free updates, and I still bought the expansion simply because the game always had stuff to do, even severely lacking PvP and end game in the beginning!
Other games as I've listed have followed suit. Understand, I'm not saying that guild wars shouldn't be played, this is in strict reference to "you get what you pay for". Value wise, Guild Wars 1 is a decent MMO, and an even better Single Player title (not in the scope that its a single player game, but in comparison cost wise to current single player titles).
My whole point is that each game sets their payment methods and supports them accordingly. Sure some companies may come out as greedy making you pay for the box, the sub and then tacking on items on top of that (like cryptic) but there are still some good companies who keep fluff to a minimum and still provide a great entertainment Service on top of a great Game.
My whole point is that each game sets their payment methods and supports them accordingly. Sure some companies may come out as greedy making you pay for the box, the sub and then tacking on items on top of that (like cryptic, like Blizzard, like SOE, actually like most of the subbed ones) but there are still some good companies who keep fluff to a minimum and still provide a great entertainment Service on top of a great Game.
'You get what you pay for' is not the case, certainly when it came to GW you get far more than what you pay for.
I think it's more 'you pay what you've learnt to accept to pay' is more the case when it comes to subbed MMO's.
ANet showed that it's possible to do more (content, gameplay fun) with less (no subs).
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I would be surprise if they get 30$ per box sale. When you check the cost of making the box,shipping it to the store and the profit margin of the store (probably somewhere betwen 20 and 50% of the sell price)
I highly doubt it's $30 dollars considering all the shipping is done in bulk and that NcSoft sells it to wholesalers/retailers which move it to there stores and sell the actual game. The packaging etc is usually included in general development costs. They don't ship it everywhere companies buy it from them and move it to there stores. They'll probably just ship it to somewhere like a place in main land Europe then other companies will buy and move it themselves.
At least $40 is probably what A-net gets with the likelihood being more. Less than $40 barlely seems economical and is highly unlikely.
The actual shipping costs and handling costs are paid by the retailer. They then add that cost to their sales to balance the books/make a profit. What I would like to know is what is the wholesale price and the margin for the video game, generally speaking in retail if you pay $3.00 for something (not marked down, on sale or being clearanced) it's pretty certain that the wholesale price is at most $1.00. Alot of stuff the margin is even larger. (HDMI cables running $70 at Best Buy can be purchased for less than $12.00 wholesale).
I'm thinking at the level of the devs, they might only be making $1.00-2.00/game (remember though on a 4 million player base that's a gross of $8 million).
Really really REALLY doubt it's that low or anywhere near that as these things are hella expensive to produce. The developers themselves may not be getting much but the publishers cerainly are and since they pay for most of the game it makes sense.
I am talking about the devs, not the publishers. Anyway, here's a link containing links on pricing and mark up for games.
Generally for the retailer the markup is around 55-65% or 17$ on a $39 game, meaning they paid around $32. What the devs get from the publisher out of that, I have no idea.
My whole point is that each game sets their payment methods and supports them accordingly. Sure some companies may come out as greedy making you pay for the box, the sub and then tacking on items on top of that (like cryptic, like Blizzard, like SOE, actually like most of the subbed ones) but there are still some good companies who keep fluff to a minimum and still provide a great entertainment Service on top of a great Game.
'You get what you pay for' is not the case, certainly when it came to GW you get far more than what you pay for.
I think it's more 'you pay what you've learnt to accept to pay' is more the case when it comes to subbed MMO's.
ANet showed that it's possible to do more (content, gameplay fun) with less (no subs).
Thats your opinion, your opinion being "more content, gameplay, fun". In that same instance I could easily say free realms would put GW to shame because of their "value" and what YOU accept to pay is too much. Lets get real here, you aren't going to change the world because one game is successful with a B2P option.
Guild Wars hasn't "done more" without a subscription, they've done "more" with subsequent content releases that you have to pay for and, oh yeah, microtransactions that are game-changing like PvP Item Packs not a celestial pony that has no real effect on gameplay.
I'm all for the B2P model, I was actually hoping DCUO went that route (but they sadly didn't) but it is EXACTLY what it is. GW was a great VALUE, plain and simple, but without paying for the content updates, item packs, or skill packs etc (from the other releases of the game) you were just left behind and stagnant. You could play the game, but only with what was available to you in your release unless you give up the cash.
In that respect, to each their own. You may feel you get more then what other games give you but content wise, that is definitely not the case.
What made Guild Wars I so great is that I could buy it when I could afford it and play it whenever I fancied. So in between other games you could jump into GW for a few months then move onto another game with very little guilt about wasting your money.
What's so hard to understand about this? They found their niche - catering to all of us when we get bored with other stuff
Roybe, you're right: that quote has been copy/pasted and linked twice in this very thread. If people are intent on not even reading 1-2 pages back to verify their facts, I say leave them be.
Guild Wars gave me some of the best times I've had as a gamer and I will support the sequel by buying all the expansions and such (assuming the game is equal in quality or better than the first).
Everything I've heard about this game sounds like they went into my mind, took everything I would like to change from the first and then implemented it. I love that we can play as Charr and I love that the classes look incredible.
Guild Wars hasn't "done more" without a subscription, they've done "more" with subsequent content releases that you have to pay for and, oh yeah, microtransactions that are game-changing like PvP Item Packs not a celestial pony that has no real effect on gameplay.
I'm all for the B2P model, I was actually hoping DCUO went that route (but they sadly didn't) but it is EXACTLY what it is. GW was a great VALUE, plain and simple, but without paying for the content updates, item packs, or skill packs etc (from the other releases of the game) you were just left behind and stagnant. You could play the game, but only with what was available to you in your release unless you give up the cash.
As you said, that's your opinion.
There's a reason Guild Wars is still ranking high on measurable lists as XFire, and the quality of the content GW offered could easily compare with the top MMO titles, especially if you count the expansions. For the price of 1 title and 3 expansions you could play for years without additional cost: I for one didn't feel disadvantaged because I went to seek out the skills I wanted in the expansions instead of not buying an expansion but just the skill pack for PvP. Even when it comes to worldsize and content density GW + expansions equals and often even surpasses a lot of the other major MMO titles.
But sure, if you didn't feel GW had much to offer you, that's your choice, tastes differ.
On the other hand, what GW already showed will GW2 show even more: a game that could have easily asked for a sub and stand equal among other subbed top MMO's when it comes to quality and content, but for which you only have to buy the game to play it, no monthly fee required at all.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I wonder if Arenanet is in an unique position to be allowed to keep GW2 free to play. Probably because GW1 was such a financial success.
Devs just want you to find the game fun to play and hope that the payment model wont get in the way of that.
Im glad it is like this. GW is one of the few MMO's out there that I see as a real gamer's game. Especially if you PVP, it takes more skill then in most other MMO's. But also if you PVE you can see that the typical grind is there, but its in unimportant parts. Like title grinding or something like that. Grind wont be standing in your way if you want to PVP or PVE at max lvl.
Guild Wars hasn't "done more" without a subscription, they've done "more" with subsequent content releases that you have to pay for and, oh yeah, microtransactions that are game-changing like PvP Item Packs not a celestial pony that has no real effect on gameplay.
I'm all for the B2P model, I was actually hoping DCUO went that route (but they sadly didn't) but it is EXACTLY what it is. GW was a great VALUE, plain and simple, but without paying for the content updates, item packs, or skill packs etc (from the other releases of the game) you were just left behind and stagnant. You could play the game, but only with what was available to you in your release unless you give up the cash.
As you said, that's your opinion.
There's a reason Guild Wars is still ranking high on measurable lists as XFire, and the quality of the content GW offered could easily compare with the top MMO titles, especially if you count the expansions. For the price of 1 title and 3 expansions you could play for years without additional cost: I for one didn't feel disadvantaged because I went to seek out the skills I wanted in the expansions instead of not buying an expansion but just the skill pack for PvP. Even when it comes to worldsize and content density GW + expansions equals and often even surpasses a lot of the other major MMO titles.
But sure, if you didn't feel GW had much to offer you, that's your choice, tastes differ.
On the other hand, what GW already showed will GW2 show even more: a game that could have easily asked for a sub and stand equal among other subbed top MMO's when it comes to quality and content, but for which you only have to buy the game to play it, no monthly fee required at all.
I think we should wait before we jump the gun with the amount of content comparable to the biggest P2P games. GW1 was great on quality for the most part. Prophecies itself was very shallow on content, and would be comparable to PSU before the expansion. GW2 will most probably be pretty large in scope, but I think its still very early to know exactly what we'll be seeing.
It will be interesting to see what sort of game GWs 2 really is. Should it be full featured like a traditional P2P MMO and succeed with this pricing model it will probably lead to a radical shake up in the pricing structure of the industry.
But then again, we seem to be already headed for a future of alternative pricing models and options, so why not add one more to the mix.
As long as people are willing to pay the monthly sub, the sub is going no where. Making gw2 with no monthly sub is not even remotely going to jolt the industry. GW1 had zero impact, so thinking GW2 will just change everything is abit optomistic.
Guess what? Theres has been no major outcry against the subscription model. People are willing to pay it. Its here to stay. I personally think that some companies could even raise the price, and people would still pay it without thinking twice. I bet SW:TOR could get away with 20.00$ a month, and it wouldnt surprise me if they didnt charge more than 15 a month, because EA has there hand in the cookie jar and they are all about pulling out bigger and bigger cookies.
From a buisness standpoint Arena net is shooting themselves in the foot by not making GW2 a subscription. We tend to look at the subscription from a gamers point of view, but put your self on the buisness side of it and think of what your company could do with the extra revenue that a sub would bring in. Games are a business, reality is, its about money.
Dude you must work for EA or Microsoft , but we're sorry that your crying about having to pay monthly for your mindless entertainment, but there's no need for you to be acting like JP Morgan thinking 99.9% of the world population is nothing more then mindless couch potato's with disposable incomes that will buy into every bullshit lie you sell them because you want to control the money source.
I have to jump in here. Now let me start this by saying that i have the utmost respect and admiration for CoH. I think it is one of the best MMO's out there. But that is kinda the problem with the comparison. The argument being put forth is that GW gave you as much content and updates as other subscription mmo's for less. I have to agree. Now when you use CoH as the example to the contrary, your neglecting to mention that CoH is much better in terms of updates than the vast majority of other P2P mmo's out there. Compared to CoH, your right, it doesnt have content updates as often. But how many other P2P mmo's compare to CoH in this reguard? In my experience, not many. And i mean content updates, not bug fix patches.
Now In terms of amount of actual content, GW is massive, especially in terms of end game content. Now admittedly prophecies (the original game) was the lightest in terms of end game content compared to the others. But even it had 30% of the game world was end game content which is comparable to most mmo's. But then when you factor in the first 2 expansions which each devoted 85% of its content to end game while doubling the size of the game world(triple for both) and then the fourth expansion which again doubled the size of the original game world (bringing the total size of the game world to 400% larger than the original game) while being devoted 100% to end game content. That is a massive amount of content that you never actually outlevel. And that doesnt even take the PvP into account which is highly competetive and addicting.
Now compare that to most mmo's and there end game content and even with there updates, its not even close. Most other mmo's have between 5-10 dungeons for end game, and thats about it. The last expansion of GW alone brought out another 18 for end game. Not counting end game missions and explorable quest areas (the whole map).
The fact that GW1 had amazing graphics and that it was free to play was amazing too me and it was a huge factor for me buying the expansions. If your not paying a monthly fee your saving money every month while still enjoying the game. Like others have mentioned before Guild Wars shop was no where near say "Allods cash cow shop" which is a disgrace to MMO's......
Now their going to have a persistent world, this will let me play GW2 plus pay for another MMO like Old Republic but to be honest the MMO genre better take a good look at Anet and Turbine in their F2Play models it''s the future but GW is in a class of their own by going totally free....
Now I can afford a collectors edition box I can't wait.
It will be interesting to see what sort of game GWs 2 really is. Should it be full featured like a traditional P2P MMO and succeed with this pricing model it will probably lead to a radical shake up in the pricing structure of the industry.
But then again, we seem to be already headed for a future of alternative pricing models and options, so why not add one more to the mix.
As long as people are willing to pay the monthly sub, the sub is going no where. Making gw2 with no monthly sub is not even remotely going to jolt the industry. GW1 had zero impact, so thinking GW2 will just change everything is abit optomistic.
Guess what? Theres has been no major outcry against the subscription model. People are willing to pay it. Its here to stay. I personally think that some companies could even raise the price, and people would still pay it without thinking twice. I bet SW:TOR could get away with 20.00$ a month, and it wouldnt surprise me if they didnt charge more than 15 a month, because EA has there hand in the cookie jar and they are all about pulling out bigger and bigger cookies.
From a buisness standpoint Arena net is shooting themselves in the foot by not making GW2 a subscription. We tend to look at the subscription from a gamers point of view, but put your self on the buisness side of it and think of what your company could do with the extra revenue that a sub would bring in. Games are a business, reality is, its about money.
Dude you must work for EA or Microsoft , but we're sorry that your crying about having to pay monthly for your mindless entertainment, but there's no need for you to be acting like JP Morgan thinking 99.9% of the world population is nothing more then mindless couch potato's with disposable incomes that will buy into every bullshit lie you sell them because you want to control the money source.
I am not crying about having to pay anything.
The world revolves around money, I am sorry that the truth hurts. We as gamers are just revenue for a businesses. Like it or not, thats the way it is. If you owned a company you would be doing you best trying to figure out how to maximize your profits.
MMO's are called "virtual crack" for a reason. Gamers are addicted to them, companies like MS, EA, and others have known this for a long time, that is why they nickle and dime gamers to death, and gamers do not stand up for themselves, they just pay and go on. Like I said in my first post SW:TOR could raise the standard 15$ month sub to up to 20$ and people will still throw their money at them. I would actully be somewhat surprised if its not raised some, because they have made it public info of the money spent in developing the game. They are planting the seeds for reasons to higher the monthly sub. But I am just speculating on that . and this is a gw2 board not that games board.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
If you take a look at Guild Wars and at its expansions. Its business model had you paying more than the average sub cost of an MMO.
woah what? I've been a GW player for... well, 4+ years with all 3 games and the expansion. I've paid about the same amount I've paid for Aion, which I've only owned for 10 months. GW buisness model has you paying WAY less than a normal P2P MMO, WAAAAY less. just look at how much you'd have to pay for WoW if you've been playing for 4+ years (box +2 expansions = 150 + 4 years of $15 = over $800)
So i've paid 1/4th as much for GW as WoW.... don't see how your numbers work.
Numbers work if your one of the hundreds of thousands of players who bought the game and all its expansions like I did, then only really beat 1 or two of the games played for 1-2 months and never logged on again.
Thousands of players had a similar experience and all of that is pure profit for Ncsoft
The original Guild Wars sold around 6 million copies over the course of its lifetime, which is pretty astounding for a game that most considered not a "true mmo". While the game did offer a small assortment of items in its shop (character slots, skill unlocks) the game never even came close to forcing you to buy anything you needed to be competitive. Everything, save for the character slots, could be earned 100% in game.
I'm assuming Guild Wars 2 will follow the same design model, only this time in a more open world environment that will still most likely have some instancing, although not on the same scale we saw in Guild Wars.
Funny the GW devs in their FAQ didn't think it was an mmo either.
Why would you buy all three chapters and the expansion (presumably at full price, because if you were buying the bundle at a discount it comes out to less than a 1-2 month sub as well) without knowing you'll enjoy it all enough to stick with it? That's just a bad investment, like buying a year sub for a game sight unseen. Not some money-grubbing tactic.
Guild Wars hasn't "done more" without a subscription, they've done "more" with subsequent content releases that you have to pay for and, oh yeah, microtransactions that are game-changing like PvP Item Packs not a celestial pony that has no real effect on gameplay.
Masked, all I can say, is what have you been smoking? Seriously. Those PvP packs you say are game-changing, aren't. You can unlock them in-game as easily as doing the quests they are associated with. And oh, every MMO has "done 'more' with subsequent content releases you have to pay for" so that point of yours is flawed, if not invalid.
Maybe instead of spouting off a bunch of lies, you should actually play the game first. Or at the very least look up a bit of information, shouldn't be all that hard to be honest (then again, I tend to forget how lazy some people are online...)
Guild Wars hasn't "done more" without a subscription, they've done "more" with subsequent content releases that you have to pay for and, oh yeah, microtransactions that are game-changing like PvP Item Packs not a celestial pony that has no real effect on gameplay.
Masked, all I can say, is what have you been smoking? Seriously. Those PvP packs you say are game-changing, aren't. You can unlock them in-game as easily as doing the quests they are associated with. And oh, every MMO has "done 'more' with subsequent content releases you have to pay for" so that point of yours is flawed, if not invalid.
Maybe instead of spouting off a bunch of lies, you should actually play the game first. Or at the very least look up a bit of information, shouldn't be all that hard to be honest (then again, I tend to forget how lazy some people are online...)
<smiles> The only thing you had to pay in GW where the expansions (which where actually full fledged playable games themselves. I don't agree with Mister Weasels point either. Nothing gamechanging and not even microtransitions at all as microtransitions are supposed to be available ingame and htese addons where only available through their website.
So what am i expecting for GW2, no more paid items as thats clearly against their pollicy and for competitive PvP everyone has access to the same gear, skill and traits right from release and for free.
I think we will see more paid content tough. Next to the bigger expansion packs i expect that there will be more paid adventure packs. kinda like downloadable content. Next to that there will be obviously more boxed expansion packs....
These boxed expansion packs should be available in 2 flavours, just the expansion pack... and another one containing both the expansion pack as the orriginal game and access to all paid content released till that day.
They'll also want to make a shtload of money from selling real life merchandise. Like action figures, books, cartoons, T-shirts and maybe even a collectable cardgame.
All in all this game should be cheeper then P2P and more ballanced then F2P
What
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Guild Wars hasn't "done more" without a subscription, they've done "more" with subsequent content releases that you have to pay for and, oh yeah, microtransactions that are game-changing like PvP Item Packs not a celestial pony that has no real effect on gameplay.
Masked, all I can say, is what have you been smoking? Seriously. Those PvP packs you say are game-changing, aren't. You can unlock them in-game as easily as doing the quests they are associated with. And oh, every MMO has "done 'more' with subsequent content releases you have to pay for" so that point of yours is flawed, if not invalid.
Maybe instead of spouting off a bunch of lies, you should actually play the game first. Or at the very least look up a bit of information, shouldn't be all that hard to be honest (then again, I tend to forget how lazy some people are online...)
Lets talk about what is "game changing". I can play Fallen Earth to max level, work alongside crafters, building up my funds and gathers materials and buy an interceptor, or make one, through blood sweat and tears. Now what is gamechanging is the guy who spends 20 dollars to get the interceptor.
Likewise in guild wars. Sure you *can* get them in game, but you can also buy them without ever having to play the game. That means the players that don't spend the money to get all the skills or PvP items, HAVE to run through the game and get these items and skills through questing. Its called an unfair advantage to those with money. Its called - MICROTRANSACTIONS. The guy with the money gets all the cool stuff right off the bat and the players in game that just bought it get to work for it. Whats the point? Players with money win. Thats called game-changing. The guy with all the skills from the skill packs didn't have to find them and work for them, he just gets them. Why do you think P2P games ban item selling? Yet I'm the liar, right? Thats laughable.
I haven't said that other MMOs have "done more" thats where your comprehension takes a nose dive. I said that GW hasn't "done more" then comparable P2P games. Content wise, they only compete with larger P2P games because of their expansions. The original prophecies game was extremely shallow in content.
Bunch of lies? Hardly, I'm just not clouded by the though that arenanet can do no wrong like fanboys are on this site.
Bunch of lies? Hardly, I'm just not clouded by the though that arenanet can do no wrong like fanboys are on this site.
I think that's the whole point, that it's actually ANet fans that you're annoyed with and that's why you're trying so hard to prove an argument that GW's cost/quality relation is not better than that of P2P's, trying to prove it to the point of absurdity.
Look, if you want so hard to believe that ANet's B2P isn't special, cheaper or more beneficial for gamers than the subbed MMO model, then go ahead, believe that all you like. There'll be enough subbed MMO's to choose from.
Just like IRL, you have car dealers and salesmen that'll try to rip you off, and others that can sell you what you were looking for for reasonable prices. It's still your own free choice which one you'll deal with.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
The scary part of no subscription fee is that all they really need to focus on before they release it is the playability for the first 60 days. If it is fun for that time, others will buy, etc.
But since there is no subscription fee, they really won't care who stays or who goes after the first couple of months. Makes you start thinking about how much thought was really put into endgame, doesn't it?
By Sept. of the release year, roughly 4-5 months after release, Sorrows Furnace went live. (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20050907) I think that was a pretty large block of free content to add into a game less than 6 months old. The end of October brought the first Festival.
I have to admit, if you get bored with content so easily, then yes Guild Wars is not for you, apparently it's to easy.;-) So by all means, find a better game for you to play.
By Sept, of '05 I hadn't made it to Drok's yet. Had all the quests, and a good grasp of the mechanics, but hadn't found a guild yet and was still learning about the game by myself. There are many reasons to enjoy these games, just understand that your judgement of 'stale' could very well convince others to not even try what I consider to be a great game! 
That's not quite true. A person is more likely to buy an expansion if they have spent a large amount of time on the game than if they've spent only a month. Also things like books and other random crap are more likely to be bought buy a player that plays the game often than those that do not.
Besides just look at the game itself personal stories with loads of different possibilities, 1500 events which can be played by any level of character. WvW, structured pvp, dungeons, achievements etc as well as fully developed mini games. It's offering a heck of a lot more end game content than your average p2p mmo this content just wont be mostly grind grind and more grind.
Understand that the game was great, but it wasn't a lasting greatness. for me Within the first few months there was a small content release, and about a year after the initial release was the next major content release. (holidays shouldn't really count much because they're usually small updates with no real major lasting content)
Take CoH for example. (launched close to the same time) Within the first 3 months they released a new level cap, zones, enemies etc. Next pack 3 months later, Armor pieces, zones, respecs, etc. A few months later, More zones, new archetypes, etc. all free. And years later they still have free content updates, they are up to issue 18 now.
I was constantly subbed, and kept coming back to CoH with all the free updates, and I still bought the expansion simply because the game always had stuff to do, even severely lacking PvP and end game in the beginning!
Other games as I've listed have followed suit. Understand, I'm not saying that guild wars shouldn't be played, this is in strict reference to "you get what you pay for". Value wise, Guild Wars 1 is a decent MMO, and an even better Single Player title (not in the scope that its a single player game, but in comparison cost wise to current single player titles).
My whole point is that each game sets their payment methods and supports them accordingly. Sure some companies may come out as greedy making you pay for the box, the sub and then tacking on items on top of that (like cryptic) but there are still some good companies who keep fluff to a minimum and still provide a great entertainment Service on top of a great Game.
'You get what you pay for' is not the case, certainly when it came to GW you get far more than what you pay for.
I think it's more 'you pay what you've learnt to accept to pay' is more the case when it comes to subbed MMO's.
ANet showed that it's possible to do more (content, gameplay fun) with less (no subs).
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am talking about the devs, not the publishers. Anyway, here's a link containing links on pricing and mark up for games.
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/723896.html
Generally for the retailer the markup is around 55-65% or 17$ on a $39 game, meaning they paid around $32. What the devs get from the publisher out of that, I have no idea.
Thats your opinion, your opinion being "more content, gameplay, fun". In that same instance I could easily say free realms would put GW to shame because of their "value" and what YOU accept to pay is too much. Lets get real here, you aren't going to change the world because one game is successful with a B2P option.
Guild Wars hasn't "done more" without a subscription, they've done "more" with subsequent content releases that you have to pay for and, oh yeah, microtransactions that are game-changing like PvP Item Packs not a celestial pony that has no real effect on gameplay.
I'm all for the B2P model, I was actually hoping DCUO went that route (but they sadly didn't) but it is EXACTLY what it is. GW was a great VALUE, plain and simple, but without paying for the content updates, item packs, or skill packs etc (from the other releases of the game) you were just left behind and stagnant. You could play the game, but only with what was available to you in your release unless you give up the cash.
In that respect, to each their own. You may feel you get more then what other games give you but content wise, that is definitely not the case.
What made Guild Wars I so great is that I could buy it when I could afford it and play it whenever I fancied. So in between other games you could jump into GW for a few months then move onto another game with very little guilt about wasting your money.
What's so hard to understand about this? They found their niche - catering to all of us when we get bored with other stuff
Roybe, you're right: that quote has been copy/pasted and linked twice in this very thread. If people are intent on not even reading 1-2 pages back to verify their facts, I say leave them be.
Guild Wars gave me some of the best times I've had as a gamer and I will support the sequel by buying all the expansions and such (assuming the game is equal in quality or better than the first).
Everything I've heard about this game sounds like they went into my mind, took everything I would like to change from the first and then implemented it. I love that we can play as Charr and I love that the classes look incredible.
As you said, that's your opinion.
There's a reason Guild Wars is still ranking high on measurable lists as XFire, and the quality of the content GW offered could easily compare with the top MMO titles, especially if you count the expansions. For the price of 1 title and 3 expansions you could play for years without additional cost: I for one didn't feel disadvantaged because I went to seek out the skills I wanted in the expansions instead of not buying an expansion but just the skill pack for PvP. Even when it comes to worldsize and content density GW + expansions equals and often even surpasses a lot of the other major MMO titles.
But sure, if you didn't feel GW had much to offer you, that's your choice, tastes differ.
On the other hand, what GW already showed will GW2 show even more: a game that could have easily asked for a sub and stand equal among other subbed top MMO's when it comes to quality and content, but for which you only have to buy the game to play it, no monthly fee required at all.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I wonder if Arenanet is in an unique position to be allowed to keep GW2 free to play. Probably because GW1 was such a financial success.
Devs just want you to find the game fun to play and hope that the payment model wont get in the way of that.
Im glad it is like this. GW is one of the few MMO's out there that I see as a real gamer's game. Especially if you PVP, it takes more skill then in most other MMO's. But also if you PVE you can see that the typical grind is there, but its in unimportant parts. Like title grinding or something like that. Grind wont be standing in your way if you want to PVP or PVE at max lvl.
I think we should wait before we jump the gun with the amount of content comparable to the biggest P2P games. GW1 was great on quality for the most part. Prophecies itself was very shallow on content, and would be comparable to PSU before the expansion. GW2 will most probably be pretty large in scope, but I think its still very early to know exactly what we'll be seeing.
Dude you must work for EA or Microsoft , but we're sorry that your crying about having to pay monthly for your mindless entertainment, but there's no need for you to be acting like JP Morgan thinking 99.9% of the world population is nothing more then mindless couch potato's with disposable incomes that will buy into every bullshit lie you sell them because you want to control the money source.
Evil will always triumph because good is dumb....
I have to jump in here. Now let me start this by saying that i have the utmost respect and admiration for CoH. I think it is one of the best MMO's out there. But that is kinda the problem with the comparison. The argument being put forth is that GW gave you as much content and updates as other subscription mmo's for less. I have to agree. Now when you use CoH as the example to the contrary, your neglecting to mention that CoH is much better in terms of updates than the vast majority of other P2P mmo's out there. Compared to CoH, your right, it doesnt have content updates as often. But how many other P2P mmo's compare to CoH in this reguard? In my experience, not many. And i mean content updates, not bug fix patches.
Now In terms of amount of actual content, GW is massive, especially in terms of end game content. Now admittedly prophecies (the original game) was the lightest in terms of end game content compared to the others. But even it had 30% of the game world was end game content which is comparable to most mmo's. But then when you factor in the first 2 expansions which each devoted 85% of its content to end game while doubling the size of the game world(triple for both) and then the fourth expansion which again doubled the size of the original game world (bringing the total size of the game world to 400% larger than the original game) while being devoted 100% to end game content. That is a massive amount of content that you never actually outlevel. And that doesnt even take the PvP into account which is highly competetive and addicting.
Now compare that to most mmo's and there end game content and even with there updates, its not even close. Most other mmo's have between 5-10 dungeons for end game, and thats about it. The last expansion of GW alone brought out another 18 for end game. Not counting end game missions and explorable quest areas (the whole map).
The fact that GW1 had amazing graphics and that it was free to play was amazing too me and it was a huge factor for me buying the expansions. If your not paying a monthly fee your saving money every month while still enjoying the game. Like others have mentioned before Guild Wars shop was no where near say "Allods cash cow shop" which is a disgrace to MMO's......
Now their going to have a persistent world, this will let me play GW2 plus pay for another MMO like Old Republic but to be honest the MMO genre better take a good look at Anet and Turbine in their F2Play models it''s the future but GW is in a class of their own by going totally free....
Now I can afford a collectors edition box I can't wait.
I am not crying about having to pay anything.
The world revolves around money, I am sorry that the truth hurts. We as gamers are just revenue for a businesses. Like it or not, thats the way it is. If you owned a company you would be doing you best trying to figure out how to maximize your profits.
MMO's are called "virtual crack" for a reason. Gamers are addicted to them, companies like MS, EA, and others have known this for a long time, that is why they nickle and dime gamers to death, and gamers do not stand up for themselves, they just pay and go on. Like I said in my first post SW:TOR could raise the standard 15$ month sub to up to 20$ and people will still throw their money at them. I would actully be somewhat surprised if its not raised some, because they have made it public info of the money spent in developing the game. They are planting the seeds for reasons to higher the monthly sub. But I am just speculating on that
. and this is a gw2 board not that games board.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Numbers work if your one of the hundreds of thousands of players who bought the game and all its expansions like I did, then only really beat 1 or two of the games played for 1-2 months and never logged on again.
Thousands of players had a similar experience and all of that is pure profit for Ncsoft
Funny the GW devs in their FAQ didn't think it was an mmo either.
Why would you buy all three chapters and the expansion (presumably at full price, because if you were buying the bundle at a discount it comes out to less than a 1-2 month sub as well) without knowing you'll enjoy it all enough to stick with it? That's just a bad investment, like buying a year sub for a game sight unseen. Not some money-grubbing tactic.
Masked, all I can say, is what have you been smoking? Seriously. Those PvP packs you say are game-changing, aren't. You can unlock them in-game as easily as doing the quests they are associated with. And oh, every MMO has "done 'more' with subsequent content releases you have to pay for" so that point of yours is flawed, if not invalid.
Maybe instead of spouting off a bunch of lies, you should actually play the game first. Or at the very least look up a bit of information, shouldn't be all that hard to be honest (then again, I tend to forget how lazy some people are online...)
<smiles> The only thing you had to pay in GW where the expansions (which where actually full fledged playable games themselves. I don't agree with Mister Weasels point either. Nothing gamechanging and not even microtransitions at all as microtransitions are supposed to be available ingame and htese addons where only available through their website.
So what am i expecting for GW2, no more paid items as thats clearly against their pollicy and for competitive PvP everyone has access to the same gear, skill and traits right from release and for free.
I think we will see more paid content tough. Next to the bigger expansion packs i expect that there will be more paid adventure packs. kinda like downloadable content. Next to that there will be obviously more boxed expansion packs....
These boxed expansion packs should be available in 2 flavours, just the expansion pack... and another one containing both the expansion pack as the orriginal game and access to all paid content released till that day.
They'll also want to make a shtload of money from selling real life merchandise. Like action figures, books, cartoons, T-shirts and maybe even a collectable cardgame.
All in all this game should be cheeper then P2P and more ballanced then F2P
What
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Lets talk about what is "game changing". I can play Fallen Earth to max level, work alongside crafters, building up my funds and gathers materials and buy an interceptor, or make one, through blood sweat and tears. Now what is gamechanging is the guy who spends 20 dollars to get the interceptor.
Likewise in guild wars. Sure you *can* get them in game, but you can also buy them without ever having to play the game. That means the players that don't spend the money to get all the skills or PvP items, HAVE to run through the game and get these items and skills through questing. Its called an unfair advantage to those with money. Its called - MICROTRANSACTIONS. The guy with the money gets all the cool stuff right off the bat and the players in game that just bought it get to work for it. Whats the point? Players with money win. Thats called game-changing. The guy with all the skills from the skill packs didn't have to find them and work for them, he just gets them. Why do you think P2P games ban item selling? Yet I'm the liar, right? Thats laughable.
I haven't said that other MMOs have "done more" thats where your comprehension takes a nose dive. I said that GW hasn't "done more" then comparable P2P games. Content wise, they only compete with larger P2P games because of their expansions. The original prophecies game was extremely shallow in content.
Bunch of lies? Hardly, I'm just not clouded by the though that arenanet can do no wrong like fanboys are on this site.
I think that's the whole point, that it's actually ANet fans that you're annoyed with and that's why you're trying so hard to prove an argument that GW's cost/quality relation is not better than that of P2P's, trying to prove it to the point of absurdity.
Look, if you want so hard to believe that ANet's B2P isn't special, cheaper or more beneficial for gamers than the subbed MMO model, then go ahead, believe that all you like. There'll be enough subbed MMO's to choose from.
Just like IRL, you have car dealers and salesmen that'll try to rip you off, and others that can sell you what you were looking for for reasonable prices. It's still your own free choice which one you'll deal with.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."