Much said already, so I try another perspective. How about this: on games, hardcore is when the game is designed with a very steep flow vector, or high flow amplitude (stronger stress/tension patterns usually due to more unforgiving gameplay with harsh penalties from losing). Casual games are designed with a flat flow vector and flatter flow amplitude. This leads to two opposing mental states Arousal/Anxiety/Worry on one end (Hardcore) and Control/Relaxation/Boredom on the other side, approaching the ideal flow state from two different sides.
For me a hardcore game is one that does not hand out freebies(to a degree, you still have to pay IRL money for that sword) like item shops. Honestly...if you're gonna be spending real money to play virtual dress up, why not buy a barbie?
To me hardcore = complex enough to require brains and personal skill, rather than grinding. If something is dumbed down to a point that no matter what you do, you'll eventually "win", it becomes less of a challenge and more of a timesink...
When strategy, thought, and skill is needed to defeat your opponent or to generally progress into the game, i call it hardcore. Or, as Sun Tzu would say "If you win the battle and *then* go to fight, it's hardcore. If you go to fight and then try to win, or not, it doesn't matter... it's wow"
Hardcore is a "state of mind" which defines an opinion. Always linked to the material. Never within the bounds of reason! The substance that is our games do not change, but the opinions and perception do as a collective. In short, Hardcore is a way of attempting to make people place higher belief on something than what the normal perception tends to be.
It is a very unhealthy way of thinking and it creates psychological and mental barriers. It divides the population and turns them against each other. Examples of "hardcore" used in other areas under other names:
1) The idea that if you don't go to Harvard, Princeton or Yale, that you should not have gone to College.
2) The idea that if you don't major in a heavy science or art, that you are wasting your time.
3) The idea that to be a "good" religious person, that you must become deep and fanatically involved.
4) The idea that if you do not buy the same thing the person next to you has, that your computer equipment is subpar and should be hauled as garbage.
5) The idea that if your opinion does not match another perfectly about any game, or issue, that you have no education and should be put out of your misery.
Hardcore follows the same path of Egoism and Elitism. It starts as a subjective opinion and belief...and its used to propel, manipulate and alter perception and environment.
I remember when someone tried to tell me that he was so great because of some contest he won. I said "yeah, you're so great and hardcore due to your ability to beat computer controlled enemies with low A.I programming in an underpopulated kid's game played by adults, which no one knows about or cares about...Excuse me for being a mere mortal in the presence of greatness! I shall sleep better tonight knowing such greatness befell my presence! ^_^"
Ask most people why they believe something is hardcore and if you put two and two together, you will uncover some of the worse traits people can have.
Hardcore is whatever you want to make of it. If you are looking for a finial definition you are tilting at windmills. It means something different to everyone.
Even Wow can be construed to be hardcore when you view it from the eyes of someone in a raiding guild.
It all depends on your perspective when it comes to defining it.
"Hardcore" to me has become a description of a playstyle as opposed to a description of a game. A game may support the "hardcore" playstyle, but I'm not sure "hardcore" can describe a game itself as if you adopt my view then any game can be "hardcore". "Hardcore" in my opinion has several aspects. The simple answer is I have a tough time describing it, but I know it when I see it. With that said I'll try to put some boundaries in there for a definiition.
First I recognize "hardcore" as doing that one aspect of a game to the exclusion of all else that does not advance you in that chosen aspect. For example if you are a "hardcore" PvP player then you will ignore all aspects of the game that do not advance your goal of being ranked among the top PvP players in the game. A hardcore PvP player will view PvE as at worst a waste of time or at best a way to obtain trinkets and gear that advance them in their PvP pursuits.
Second I recognize "harcore" as a belief that the game must "punish" those who fail to achieve the goals of the chosen aspect of the game. It's much more sanguinary than "Oh, I got kicked to the bindstone." "Harcore" means that victory can gain you something tangible and that loss costs something tangible. I think everyone would agree that corpse looting is a "harcore" mechanic while a simple ghosted corpse run is on the other side of the scale. Getting locked out of a PvE instance for a month if you die to the final boss would be considered "hardcore" whereas a simple "Go back to the start of the crawl" might be considered less so.
Third I recognize "hardcore" as a commitment to spend a disproportionately large portion of one's game time on that particular game mechanic. A "hardcore" raider in WoW spends his or her game time on running the instances or preparing to run the instances. "Nights off" are rare and it requires a personal commitment to endure the farming and preparation and be present for the raids. The player's enjoyment of the game is derived from fulfilling the personal commitment.
Fourth there is an "exclusivity" or "elitism" element to "hardcore" that blends in with the commitment requirement of "hardcore". No eveyrone can be in the club because if they are then the idea of "hardcore" breaks down. It's not "hardcore" if everyone who logs on for 30 minutes a week can do it. To be in the "Hardcore" playstyle club the player must show the commitment to that aspect of the game and may be derided for not putting in the commitment those that espouse the "hardcore" doctrine do. Use of catch phrases like "L2P" and "noob" and "bads" and "zergers" and even the term "casuals" can be indicators of a "hardcore" playstyle. "Hardcore" playstylists tend to wined up grouped together so long as it furthers their goal in the chosen mechanic. Like any other game mechanic guilds or friends that do not further the goal of the individual player are quickly discarded in favor of others who's commitment matches those of the "hardcore" playstyle player.
Fifth there is a "study" aspect to "hardcore". A "hardcore" playstyle requires not only the commitment in game, but a commitment outside of the game as well that is measured in study of game mechanics or whatever aspects of the gmae that someone intends to be "hardcore" in. "Hardcore" inevitablely requires "Min/Maxiing" as any game mechanic that does not further the players goal in the chosen area must be either adjusted or discarded. The player must have "the" spec and "the" gear etc necessary to be tops at that chosen aspect.
Finally there is a "Phyched Up/Burnt Out" cylce aspect. Since hardcore requires high commitment, energy, time and sacrifice it inevitably leads to two things. The newest members of the "hardcore" playstle club have the most energy, drive and highest commitment while those who have been at if for a while are subject to a "burnout" where they no longer wish to be "hardcore" anymore. At this point there may be attempts to reconnect with old "non harcore" friends or reroles to new servers for a "fresh start". After a time a player might return ot the "hardcore" playstyle, select another area to be "hardcore" in or simply reject the "hardcore" playstyle all together.
Within those parameters any game can be considered "hardcore" so long as it supports that kind of playstyle.
Have to say that is pretty well put and sums it up nicely. My expierence with PvP is limited from would say that is right on.
I have been on the hard core side of a game with EQ and burnout is inevitable over time. I vowed never to be that hard core again. There is life outside of the game. lol
Hard core players in whatever style they choose; PVP or PVE are totally dedicated to the cause and anyone who is not is just a casual player.
Too expound a little more on your points. Things in MMOs now adays are spoon fed to everyone. There is no mystery anymore you have a Journal that gives you clear directions on where you should go and how you should go about completing your task. Quest givers now have little things floating above their heads and are now marked on a map. It makes the whole experience cumbersome in that you are no longer immersed in the world but now are just following the bread crumbs from place to place.
And this differs from "alt-tab to Windows, fire up browser, go to allakhazam" HOW, exactly, other than convenience?
A "mystery" in an MMORPG lasts about a day past the time the first player solves it -- and in these days of extended open betas, no "new" player will ever lack for answers to mysteries, they've all been posted. You can release a game with no journal, no maps, no guides, no marked quest givers, and all anyone has to do is tab out, look it up on some wiki or board, and tab back in. So why make the player go through that extra step? You can't stop people sharing knowledge, you can't (well, you SHOULDN'T) make the game just an endless series of random dungeons (and even if you DO, the *components* of those random dungeons will be documented).
The whole concept is bollocks. "Hardcore" is a way for people to claim that pretending to be a magical elf in fairyland is somehow "macho" or "tough". Get over yourself. You're PLAYING MAKE BELIEVE. Period. (And so am I, of course, but I've got the balls to admit it.)
Hardcore, Noob, Carebare; these words mean nothing anymore, the new crowd of MMO'ers have distoreded the language and everyting is now a word to describe how great they are or toss an insult at someone else.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
What about melee running full speed even though I hit them with a fireball the size of their head?
I realize most people favor melee so that's part of this... but I think the arguement is rather lame... people just seem to hate on casters in every game like it's skilless....
People acted like playing melee in daoc was hardcore... all the "expert" gank groups were just /stick train people....
Heheee, that was a match in forum's box of black powder to start an explosion of flamewar But yes, more and more ppl fight here blaming each others, naming and calling... and hardcore is some kind of verry baad to verry ybah and superior.
But what it means, that remembers for me an old Indian story about five blind peoples touching an elephant and starting then flamewar what an elephant IS. There isn't one and overwhelming answer (or if it is, maybe that answer is "42"). What is Beautiful? What is Tasty? What is Interesting? etc etc etc We can find many-many words which everybody knows but to answer for their meaning starting flame (or in bad cases real) wars immediately.
So is it time-consuming? Many replying here that they can't be hardcore anymore - work and families etc, no time for nolifer, no time for 24/7, no time for 8 days per week raiding... But IS amount of time that makes you hardcore? Is some farmville freak who sitting behind his FB account same time you spent in raids hardcore? Yes, in some meaning of this word definitely. Is some guy who spend each and every night after work with beers at chesstable with his pals too hardcore? Again, maybe YES. But put that guy at table with even high-school chess tournament winner, and he got beaten 10 from 10? Is he hardcore still?
That takes us to things named here before hundreds times under hundreds different means but all going towards some of few goals. Knowledge, skills, brain-use, professionalism... Not just trained monkey with key-spamming possibilities. And as in real life - some mistakes can be very hard, even deadly - so be in game world too. Some say - game is for fun, game must be easy, i'm casual so i'vnt time for this-n-that, everybody must be happy etc. For me such kind of thing is like qheel for squirrel - to run in it is seemly fun for poor animal cuz he havn't any other possibilities. But I myself don't wanna be squirrel, even in virtual world. I come here, into MMO, to explore, to find some adrenaline boost, to make some adventures I cant do in RL.
And in this case I agree with "eliticists, hardcores or name how ya wanna" that modern games (nearly all lost that thrill and adventure, and most could be run to end even not with IQ 90, in many that could be done even by trained shimpanzee It's like fighting sports most of contact fights are displaced with some kind of cordeballet, katas at mirors - nice to look that gracious fighter in action, but put him into cage-fight with real monster who takes no care of rules, where fight is going to more than just some points in tournament tabel, where broken bones and lost teeth is least that could happen.... That I mean is hardcore. In game terms - some penalties for death are needed indeed, be it level-lost, or other. Then you start thinking Before you rush into fight, stalking new monster with words "let's see what happens, that 10 min -5% stats isn't nothing. I can say by my own experience what it was losing level in EQ1 in Plane of Sky and not get up til you again 47. But now in LOTRO times I introduced even Death-Lift - jumping to death from cliffs or sunk into lava or poison (this kind of death dont even need repairs to armor) - and get instarez in newdestination. Run'n'rush into anything anywhere, like stupid headless hens... hehee that kind of gamestyle they invented, sure WoW did it before, but in this I'm clean - I never-ever played WoW and never plan to try it.
And dumbing-down... Yes, in Internet era you can't fight against web guides, maps etc. But let them developed by players like in EQ era, make many mobs and items randomly placed, give work to cartographers, that is a bit towards hardcore by me. Let knowledge grows from discoverys, wins and mistakes whta first explorers do, those pioneers wandering to new areas first, who adventured in new dungeons first, who stalk new mobs first - them I call hardcore! You are casual? You don't want frustration from hard penalties? Yes - level up in neighboring area, make that "Kill-Ten-Rats" quests you just read about in web and don't risk with hard penalties that can wait wasteland runners. And no problem, they discover new areas, map them and voilaa - time for casuals move on. But pre-mapped areas, quests marked with red X etc. - this I name dumbing down and in bad meaning of these words. That kind of game can't be hardcore.
If you use in your game levelling, then make it meaningful. Yes, that learning curve. After a few You must find (like in PnP RPGs) some master, teacher who can teach you new skills, Youd must pay for that be it money or services, and that I mean is really New Skills, not that now CTRL-1 & CTRL-2 spamming makes +10 damage. You must practice your skills and spells or whatever to reach new highs - that I mean hardcore. And who have time make this in few days/weeks, who have less time, make this in month - both who are polished they style I can call hardcore - they know what they do, why they do, how and where they do. That I call hardcore. Even better when game (and it's devs) can let most dedicated players introduce new skills, recipes etc into gameworld - that I call hardcore.
People with brain and imagination, with lust to play can be hardcore even in months (you real lvl have nothing common with it - brainless dumbass can be grind himself to lvl 80 in now-a-day MMOs) when some people never reach those highs but still can enjoy the game in their way. Those hardcores can lead the guilds and help fellow players in they learning curves and they must not struggle against others - be they casuals or carebears. Like olympis winners don't go around spitting into face to other population. Really big and open gameworld can offer definitely all kinds of gameplay and everybody is happy. Hope that curse towards only dumbing world isn't final solution. Long but my 5cc.
Whats so good about hardcore? I will tell you in one word,,. EVERYTHING!!!!!
To elaborate a little more into the topic, gamers like myself prefer "hardcore" MMO's as opposed to "EZ MODE hold you by the hand and wipe your nose" types of MMO's because of the "CHALLENGE"
The most hardcore MMO I've played and enjoyed was the original Everquest... Hardcore MMO's are for adults and not for little children... I say this because, children and or FPS types of gamers don't enjoy anything that's difficult. It's not fun for them. They want everything drawn out for them where everything is pretty much EZ mode all the way to the end game... This is why MMO's have failed the last 5 years.. If you make a game to easy to reach the end, gamers will get bored and move on to something else...
Games like EQ took months and months to reach max level, and more months to get decked out in end game gear. By the time you and your guild pretty mcuh defeated all the content the game had to offer, "including long epic quests" an expansion came out which basically continued the overall "story" of the game... Real "hardcore" MMO gamers actually enjoy this aspect of MMORPG's... The children and FPS gamers only care about PVP, reaching max level in a week, and blowing through the game with pretty much no challenge at all... If they die constantly, they cry, moan, whine, complain, and throw tantrums on the forums describing how hard the game is and that it should be "easier" for them... Well, I say these types of gamers have pretty much caused devs to raise an eyebrow and cater to them by making all the crappy MMO's that's came out the last 5 years EZ mode pew pew kiddy games..
Look what that's done to the genre.....
Difficult, Challenging, Hardcore MMO's is what the true fans of this genre crave... MMO's where it takes a couple months to finish that super tough quest where you actually feel a sense of,,,,,, "Accomplishment" from finishing such a difficult, time consuming, but awesome epic type of quest.... Long rewarding quests are great because when your finished, you can show off that new shiny rare reward you received. Not only that, but the quest is reward itself since you escaped from reality for a while and became mezmerized by the gripping story being told during the entire quest line....
This is what I miss and why I am not subscribed currently to any MMO's right now... I, like many others are waiting for a true successor to Everquest... So far we've all been disappointed by the crap being dished out year after year!
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
Hardcore is just a term, the essence of its meaning follows:
Only exist in the context of competition.
Regarding competition, we have two mindsets. Prone to be closer to one or another: Reactive or Passive.
Reactive: does care about competition, such caring causes many effects.
Passive: does not care about competition.
Regarding each individual interest on any subject, on any given time, such sensitiveness to competition can be evaluated and its degree of reactiveness to it measured.
Every human is diference.
Difference causes conflict.
Such differences also solve the conflicts due the vertical nature of power generated by those differences.
Conclusion: Any kind of design decision that promotes the above, gets its "hardcore" rating raised.
Hardcore is: the potential gap of power over others and direct possibility of causing effect over others with said power..
Balance is an illusion.
examples:
Im hardcore in most physical activities related to sports, martial arts, and similars. Im also very hardcore regarding theory of game applied to any aspect of life. Very hardcore regarding Law. Im hardcore about game analysis and implementation of design decisions and analysis of consequent human behavior in competitive MMO's environments.
Yeah, Oakthorn, year words are gold. Last years bring only EZ-mode crap, and will do so in future. Why?
If we look at game business there is many different types on market - there are adventure games and RPGs, shooters and strategy, chess and boardgames and puzzles. For different consumers different games. Not all are big hits but if company spend some say $10K to make and market game, and then sells only 10 000 copies for $10 - then tghis company earned $100K and get ten times out what it put in.
With MMOs are things different - produce and develope them and hold them in run is much more expansive and that's capitalism to get out as much money as they can, even selling pure shit. When they found who still wanna pay, they make them still there is more wanna pay than cost of making that shit.
Now, see most companies don't make pure shit, they make boringly easy, dumbdowned games. But due to dumbness those games can be played by not so smart players. If we look how population is divided by smartness, IQ we can see Gaussian curve where ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient ) biggest overwhelming part stays between ordinary mean values of 90 - 110. That means biggest group of players. That is loadest group of whiners on forums cuz smarter people are shy, they don't cry to show to all world - see I'm so stupid I can't do that easiest quest.
And I agree with you Oakthorn that EQ1 was hardcore, it was my first MMO and I still remember it prenerffed etc. To this game came only freaks at first, fans of MUDs, fans of PnP D&D, etc. But then computers start spread, Internet start cheapen - and all that middle-class who played still ordinary easy single-player games discovered for them MMOs. And first to discover that was WoW devs in Blizzard. Wow, there is such a big market for WoW! Take ideas from EQ, UO, SWG etc. - dumb them down to be eatable for masses, nerf down graphics so that every mid- or low-class punter could run it - and there we got what we need. Millions of subs, crowd crying halleluuuyah and hosiannas, hordes fo wow-fanboys ready to kill everybody who don't agree. And with wow changed too mentality - rush-tuns to so called end-game, farming gear to prolong their e-peens etc.
And now it's much-much easier and cheaper to estamp wow-clones with same business models - put Z amount of mobney in, take 2 x Z or 3 x Z or... out. That is why we see in every god-forgotten spot on planet some MacDonalds or Hesburger or some other crap fastfood boutique, but Michelin Star restourants we don't find even not in every capital city. Who takes risk? And in business look - why take a risk? When we already know that takeing risk means if not fail, it will be 2-3-4-5 times less income than in pipelining crap. If even there would be idealtists, some indie company - still they need big money to invest in years waitiing (if) payback in future. And even then that new hardcore could be fail cuz wellknown IPs cost big money, to make hardcore game needs times more money - and then we, former EQ, UO, SWG players come and see - that world isn't such big, their epic quests aren't so quality as in our (name-it-here) legendary game which was made and financed by some big wallet company like SOE or such.
And in this look on future it IS sad. And stay such (like in movies, books and other entertainment) cuz braindead masses swallow all they will given and pay for it (look that movie Idiocracy LOL). And such a game, hardcore by our best means could happened only when some big hardcore fan with really big wallet (be it Henry Ford IX or Steve Jobs III or...) will go mad by stupidity of MMO market and says - f000ck, why I must by another 10 Ferraris and fifths jet-plane or B-787 or ............. I wanna game I like and hires most brilliant brains and devs, buys most good IP and start some New Game. And even it will be only for that little 10% of higher end players that's good. If it makes new star and makes a lot income, better
There's a reason why the US is the world's only remaining super power, but when compared to most other countries academically, our results are terrible. We don't force people to think, since capitalism shows that adapting to the person is more profitable then forcing the person to adapt to you.
It's not my intention to hijack this thread into polytics, but your remark made me laugh. I agree to your remark, but not about the US being the only super power. Azia has enough soldiers to occupy the whole world but their economy doesn't require them to start and support new wars like the USA does.
For me Hardcore is the level of focus you need to have on a game, due to the possible penalties inflicted.
For instance, I used to play Diablo II on Hardcore, where any character death was permanent. After that going back to normal mode never game me the same feeling of intensity when playing my character.
I could also look at EvE online where the possibility of losing a ship is a real issue.
Yet another article that could've been quite effectively condensed to a single paragraph.
Either way, "hardcore" is a gamer meme that references a difficult and/or time-consuming game or activity that only a small percentage of the overall playerbase would attempt or enjoy.
I would not say "depth" has anything to do with "hardcore". Example: WoW has a lot of depth. The story in the game is very fleshed out and deep. There is a lot of lore to discover. The character progression has multiple avenues in which someone can focus deeply to become good at. But those are some aspects. Others would argue that the game is shallow as it takes a brainless monkey with 8 hours a day of game time to max out your toon as long as you install a few addons and do as the raid leader says.
The good about "hardcore" is that if it is incorporated into a game that could be satisfactory for either the "hardcore" or the "casual" crowds and then extremely fun for the other then you have a game that self-promotes and allows for a much larger playerbase. A game that allows both "hardcore" and "casual" allows players to jump from one to the other freely, then I would call it a good thing.
If you have a game deemed as "hardcore" in and of itself, then I would say it is inherently flawed. You force the base to be smaller and the community to be clique-y. If elitism and cliques dominate the community, the game is bound to fail or stay very small. This discourages some players of any variety from joining the game.
The best about "hardcore" is that it adds variety and to the social dynamics. Mix "hardcore" and "casual" and you have the joys of watching an elitist wave his epeen around and then round a corner to find a group of casuals having a large bit of fun discussing low or mid-range gear. You can then find other people who can amass unbelievable fortunes in any game.
Its all subjective. To be objective you must determine which topic or frame you want to define and then find the common ground between all of the target demographic. From there you quatify what you want to measure. Do you define the player by thier gear? The money they have? The items they own? The hours theyve played? Do you define the game by the hours to reach level X? The % of the players that attempt X fail Y times before succeeding? The number of expected deaths to accomplish X? The time it takes to complete X?
TL:DR: A bag of potatoes to go with the thin strip of meat.
Those are all of the MMO's that I have played extensively. I still play WoW because their is nothing that suits my style right now (UO and SWG was my style), so I wast time with it.
BY far, the most fun I have ever had were in hardcore games.
*The only thing keeping SWG from being full blown hardcore, was the option to be overt or covert. I loved the system as it was, but it lost some of the fearing for your life aspect . . . unless you were a Jedi.
To me, hardcore means you can make a name for yourself, whether it be in combat, crafting, or just being the local idiot. You could do that in the first four games I mentioned. You can't do that in the last four.
There is no hardcore in my eyes, there are games that are written correctly and then there are games that are written by formulas or spreadsheets.
The first kind tend to be started by smaller companies that want to write something that they want to play and if others want to play them then all the better. These games tend to be some what niche, harsh, unforgiving. It's play the way of the game and get on with it or go play something else.
If you get spat out into the world in you new char and wander into the wrong place then you die, that's it, try again. If you want to be a big scarey beast then put in the time and effort and work towards that goal. Everything you get is a case of risk eward where the risk is real (as in, lose all your stuff not "have to go and repair for 1 gold")
The other type tend to be pumped out by the larger production houses and people that just want to make money off the industry. As such they tend to try and make everything easily accesable. They lack any deviation from "what's worked before" beside a thin veil of "shiny new graphics" and a resetting of location and follow lots of psychological ways of making you play rather than getting you to play because it's fun.
So, "hardcore" games tend to be the harder to get into, not trying to spoon feed them selves to everyone, ok with the fact that only a set group of people will want to play, complex, intreaging, more focus on game play and entertaining than the less "hardcore" mmos.
The reason that "hardcore" games are better?
They're actually interesting and not just using psycological traps to get the player to stay sitting there clicking away.
To me hardcore game means that gamer skill (quick thinking/reactions, knowledge, experience, etc..) translates into coresponding gameplay outcome.
It can be either a pass/fail outcome where only players above a decent level of skill make it, or a ladder, where the upper players are recognized and rewarded.
A game that is not hardcore is often described as "easy to jump into" or things like that. There is no learning curve or very shallow learning curve. And there is limited outcome difference between a very good player and a player who hardly knows how to operate a computer. Everyone is a winner if they cough up the $$$.
As to why hardcore is good.. well obviously if you consider yourself a skilfull gamer, or even just a competitive gamer then playing a game where how you play makes little difference, where the game is a themepark ride rather then a challenge to beat is simply unfun.
I stopped believing what the masses considered hardcore when my friends little girl was watching a Powerpuff Girls episode and Bubbles said in an angry tone "I'm Hardcore now." It use to be hardcode was considered that the environment was extreamly challenging / dangerious to the point where if you went too far out a comfort zone you had a chance to lose your body, gear, along with experience. IE: EQ when you went on a Hate raid and had a chance to lose your body and gear if you couldn't get someone to help you get it back.
Over the years guilds have "claimed" the hardcore title for being heavy raiders, DKP systems, or even potential punishment for missing raids. Hardcore players in guilds could be those that might be the best geared and have a significant amount of research done on encounters to make the best attempt on them as possible. At some point in the future there will be old men sitting on a porch arguing over who was more hardcore back in the day. Those days will be fun to watch.
Now are these bad things? Not at all, they are a style of play some people prefer. As time as progressed in the MMO world there was been a steady increase in the interest of a more casual style of play. The line was been drawn even more clearly between the two and of course there is conflict on what game is more one or the other. As long as the gaming industry can make a solid return on their investment by opening the door to both it won't matter which is better. It will only matter that both options are available and offer acceptable content to those specific groups. Myself, I prefer a mixture as having a real life responsibilities take priority, but I can't say either side has anything over the other.
Many of you in this thread use casual or hardcore as if they were bad words. When you grow up you will realize that different people like different things and, its okay.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
Comments
Much said already, so I try another perspective. How about this: on games, hardcore is when the game is designed with a very steep flow vector, or high flow amplitude (stronger stress/tension patterns usually due to more unforgiving gameplay with harsh penalties from losing). Casual games are designed with a flat flow vector and flatter flow amplitude. This leads to two opposing mental states Arousal/Anxiety/Worry on one end (Hardcore) and Control/Relaxation/Boredom on the other side, approaching the ideal flow state from two different sides.
For me a hardcore game is one that does not hand out freebies(to a degree, you still have to pay IRL money for that sword) like item shops. Honestly...if you're gonna be spending real money to play virtual dress up, why not buy a barbie?
To me hardcore = complex enough to require brains and personal skill, rather than grinding. If something is dumbed down to a point that no matter what you do, you'll eventually "win", it becomes less of a challenge and more of a timesink...
When strategy, thought, and skill is needed to defeat your opponent or to generally progress into the game, i call it hardcore. Or, as Sun Tzu would say "If you win the battle and *then* go to fight, it's hardcore. If you go to fight and then try to win, or not, it doesn't matter... it's wow"
Hardcore is a "state of mind" which defines an opinion. Always linked to the material. Never within the bounds of reason! The substance that is our games do not change, but the opinions and perception do as a collective. In short, Hardcore is a way of attempting to make people place higher belief on something than what the normal perception tends to be.
It is a very unhealthy way of thinking and it creates psychological and mental barriers. It divides the population and turns them against each other. Examples of "hardcore" used in other areas under other names:
1) The idea that if you don't go to Harvard, Princeton or Yale, that you should not have gone to College.
2) The idea that if you don't major in a heavy science or art, that you are wasting your time.
3) The idea that to be a "good" religious person, that you must become deep and fanatically involved.
4) The idea that if you do not buy the same thing the person next to you has, that your computer equipment is subpar and should be hauled as garbage.
5) The idea that if your opinion does not match another perfectly about any game, or issue, that you have no education and should be put out of your misery.
Hardcore follows the same path of Egoism and Elitism. It starts as a subjective opinion and belief...and its used to propel, manipulate and alter perception and environment.
I remember when someone tried to tell me that he was so great because of some contest he won. I said "yeah, you're so great and hardcore due to your ability to beat computer controlled enemies with low A.I programming in an underpopulated kid's game played by adults, which no one knows about or cares about...Excuse me for being a mere mortal in the presence of greatness! I shall sleep better tonight knowing such greatness befell my presence! ^_^"
Ask most people why they believe something is hardcore and if you put two and two together, you will uncover some of the worse traits people can have.
Hardcore is whatever you want to make of it. If you are looking for a finial definition you are tilting at windmills. It means something different to everyone.
Even Wow can be construed to be hardcore when you view it from the eyes of someone in a raiding guild.
It all depends on your perspective when it comes to defining it.
Gikku
And this differs from "alt-tab to Windows, fire up browser, go to allakhazam" HOW, exactly, other than convenience?
A "mystery" in an MMORPG lasts about a day past the time the first player solves it -- and in these days of extended open betas, no "new" player will ever lack for answers to mysteries, they've all been posted. You can release a game with no journal, no maps, no guides, no marked quest givers, and all anyone has to do is tab out, look it up on some wiki or board, and tab back in. So why make the player go through that extra step? You can't stop people sharing knowledge, you can't (well, you SHOULDN'T) make the game just an endless series of random dungeons (and even if you DO, the *components* of those random dungeons will be documented).
The whole concept is bollocks. "Hardcore" is a way for people to claim that pretending to be a magical elf in fairyland is somehow "macho" or "tough". Get over yourself. You're PLAYING MAKE BELIEVE. Period. (And so am I, of course, but I've got the balls to admit it.)
Hardcore, Noob, Carebare; these words mean nothing anymore, the new crowd of MMO'ers have distoreded the language and everyting is now a word to describe how great they are or toss an insult at someone else.
When I said i had "time", i meant virtual time, i got no RL "time" for you.
Casting through damage is easymode?
What about melee running full speed even though I hit them with a fireball the size of their head?
I realize most people favor melee so that's part of this... but I think the arguement is rather lame... people just seem to hate on casters in every game like it's skilless....
People acted like playing melee in daoc was hardcore... all the "expert" gank groups were just /stick train people....
Tanemund's explanation basically hit all the main points, especially the 'exclusivity' aspect.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. CO VH is way hardcore, my friend. Be careful, lest you get Poe-owned.
Playing | GW2
Wanting | Pantheon
Watching | Crowfall
Retired | WAR, Cabal, MO, CO, SHK, WoW, FFXIV: ARR
I consider hardcore anything that is too fast for me.
Heheee, that was a match in forum's box of black powder to start an explosion of flamewar
But yes, more and more ppl fight here blaming each others, naming and calling... and hardcore is some kind of verry baad to verry ybah and superior.
But what it means, that remembers for me an old Indian story about five blind peoples touching an elephant and starting then flamewar what an elephant IS. There isn't one and overwhelming answer (or if it is, maybe that answer is "42"). What is Beautiful? What is Tasty? What is Interesting? etc etc etc We can find many-many words which everybody knows but to answer for their meaning starting flame (or in bad cases real) wars immediately.
So is it time-consuming? Many replying here that they can't be hardcore anymore - work and families etc, no time for nolifer, no time for 24/7, no time for 8 days per week raiding... But IS amount of time that makes you hardcore? Is some farmville freak who sitting behind his FB account same time you spent in raids hardcore? Yes, in some meaning of this word definitely. Is some guy who spend each and every night after work with beers at chesstable with his pals too hardcore? Again, maybe YES. But put that guy at table with even high-school chess tournament winner, and he got beaten 10 from 10? Is he hardcore still?
That takes us to things named here before hundreds times under hundreds different means but all going towards some of few goals. Knowledge, skills, brain-use, professionalism... Not just trained monkey with key-spamming possibilities. And as in real life - some mistakes can be very hard, even deadly - so be in game world too. Some say - game is for fun, game must be easy, i'm casual so i'vnt time for this-n-that, everybody must be happy etc. For me such kind of thing is like qheel for squirrel - to run in it is seemly fun for poor animal cuz he havn't any other possibilities. But I myself don't wanna be squirrel, even in virtual world. I come here, into MMO, to explore, to find some adrenaline boost, to make some adventures I cant do in RL.
And in this case I agree with "eliticists, hardcores or name how ya wanna" that modern games (nearly all lost that thrill and adventure, and most could be run to end even not with IQ 90, in many that could be done even by trained shimpanzee
It's like fighting sports most of contact fights are displaced with some kind of cordeballet, katas at mirors - nice to look that gracious fighter in action, but put him into cage-fight with real monster who takes no care of rules, where fight is going to more than just some points in tournament tabel, where broken bones and lost teeth is least that could happen.... That I mean is hardcore. In game terms - some penalties for death are needed indeed, be it level-lost, or other. Then you start thinking Before you rush into fight, stalking new monster with words "let's see what happens, that 10 min -5% stats isn't nothing. I can say by my own experience what it was losing level in EQ1 in Plane of Sky and not get up til you again 47. But now in LOTRO times I introduced even Death-Lift - jumping to death from cliffs or sunk into lava or poison (this kind of death dont even need repairs to armor) - and get instarez in newdestination. Run'n'rush into anything anywhere, like stupid headless hens... hehee that kind of gamestyle they invented, sure WoW did it before, but in this I'm clean - I never-ever played WoW and never plan to try it.
And dumbing-down... Yes, in Internet era you can't fight against web guides, maps etc. But let them developed by players like in EQ era, make many mobs and items randomly placed, give work to cartographers, that is a bit towards hardcore by me. Let knowledge grows from discoverys, wins and mistakes whta first explorers do, those pioneers wandering to new areas first, who adventured in new dungeons first, who stalk new mobs first - them I call hardcore! You are casual? You don't want frustration from hard penalties? Yes - level up in neighboring area, make that "Kill-Ten-Rats" quests you just read about in web and don't risk with hard penalties that can wait wasteland runners. And no problem, they discover new areas, map them and voilaa - time for casuals move on. But pre-mapped areas, quests marked with red X etc. - this I name dumbing down and in bad meaning of these words. That kind of game can't be hardcore.
If you use in your game levelling, then make it meaningful. Yes, that learning curve. After a few You must find (like in PnP RPGs) some master, teacher who can teach you new skills, Youd must pay for that be it money or services, and that I mean is really New Skills, not that now CTRL-1 & CTRL-2 spamming makes +10 damage. You must practice your skills and spells or whatever to reach new highs - that I mean hardcore. And who have time make this in few days/weeks, who have less time, make this in month - both who are polished they style I can call hardcore - they know what they do, why they do, how and where they do. That I call hardcore. Even better when game (and it's devs) can let most dedicated players introduce new skills, recipes etc into gameworld - that I call hardcore.
People with brain and imagination, with lust to play can be hardcore even in months (you real lvl have nothing common with it - brainless dumbass can be grind himself to lvl 80 in now-a-day MMOs) when some people never reach those highs but still can enjoy the game in their way. Those hardcores can lead the guilds and help fellow players in they learning curves and they must not struggle against others - be they casuals or carebears. Like olympis winners don't go around spitting into face to other population. Really big and open gameworld can offer definitely all kinds of gameplay and everybody is happy. Hope that curse towards only dumbing world isn't final solution. Long but my 5cc.
Whats so good about hardcore? I will tell you in one word,,. EVERYTHING!!!!!
To elaborate a little more into the topic, gamers like myself prefer "hardcore" MMO's as opposed to "EZ MODE hold you by the hand and wipe your nose" types of MMO's because of the "CHALLENGE"
The most hardcore MMO I've played and enjoyed was the original Everquest... Hardcore MMO's are for adults and not for little children... I say this because, children and or FPS types of gamers don't enjoy anything that's difficult. It's not fun for them. They want everything drawn out for them where everything is pretty much EZ mode all the way to the end game... This is why MMO's have failed the last 5 years.. If you make a game to easy to reach the end, gamers will get bored and move on to something else...
Games like EQ took months and months to reach max level, and more months to get decked out in end game gear. By the time you and your guild pretty mcuh defeated all the content the game had to offer, "including long epic quests" an expansion came out which basically continued the overall "story" of the game... Real "hardcore" MMO gamers actually enjoy this aspect of MMORPG's... The children and FPS gamers only care about PVP, reaching max level in a week, and blowing through the game with pretty much no challenge at all... If they die constantly, they cry, moan, whine, complain, and throw tantrums on the forums describing how hard the game is and that it should be "easier" for them... Well, I say these types of gamers have pretty much caused devs to raise an eyebrow and cater to them by making all the crappy MMO's that's came out the last 5 years EZ mode pew pew kiddy games..
Look what that's done to the genre.....
Difficult, Challenging, Hardcore MMO's is what the true fans of this genre crave... MMO's where it takes a couple months to finish that super tough quest where you actually feel a sense of,,,,,, "Accomplishment" from finishing such a difficult, time consuming, but awesome epic type of quest.... Long rewarding quests are great because when your finished, you can show off that new shiny rare reward you received. Not only that, but the quest is reward itself since you escaped from reality for a while and became mezmerized by the gripping story being told during the entire quest line....
This is what I miss and why I am not subscribed currently to any MMO's right now... I, like many others are waiting for a true successor to Everquest... So far we've all been disappointed by the crap being dished out year after year!
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
Hardcore is just a term, the essence of its meaning follows:
Only exist in the context of competition.
Regarding competition, we have two mindsets. Prone to be closer to one or another: Reactive or Passive.
Reactive: does care about competition, such caring causes many effects.
Passive: does not care about competition.
Regarding each individual interest on any subject, on any given time, such sensitiveness to competition can be evaluated and its degree of reactiveness to it measured.
Every human is diference.
Difference causes conflict.
Such differences also solve the conflicts due the vertical nature of power generated by those differences.
Conclusion: Any kind of design decision that promotes the above, gets its "hardcore" rating raised.
Hardcore is: the potential gap of power over others and direct possibility of causing effect over others with said power..
Balance is an illusion.
examples:
Im hardcore in most physical activities related to sports, martial arts, and similars. Im also very hardcore regarding theory of game applied to any aspect of life. Very hardcore regarding Law. Im hardcore about game analysis and implementation of design decisions and analysis of consequent human behavior in competitive MMO's environments.
Yeah, Oakthorn, year words are gold. Last years bring only EZ-mode crap, and will do so in future. Why?
If we look at game business there is many different types on market - there are adventure games and RPGs, shooters and strategy, chess and boardgames and puzzles. For different consumers different games. Not all are big hits but if company spend some say $10K to make and market game, and then sells only 10 000 copies for $10 - then tghis company earned $100K and get ten times out what it put in.
With MMOs are things different - produce and develope them and hold them in run is much more expansive and that's capitalism to get out as much money as they can, even selling pure shit. When they found who still wanna pay, they make them still there is more wanna pay than cost of making that shit.
Now, see most companies don't make pure shit, they make boringly easy, dumbdowned games. But due to dumbness those games can be played by not so smart players. If we look how population is divided by smartness, IQ we can see Gaussian curve where ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient ) biggest overwhelming part stays between ordinary mean values of 90 - 110. That means biggest group of players. That is loadest group of whiners on forums cuz smarter people are shy, they don't cry to show to all world - see I'm so stupid I can't do that easiest quest.
And I agree with you Oakthorn that EQ1 was hardcore, it was my first MMO and I still remember it prenerffed etc. To this game came only freaks at first, fans of MUDs, fans of PnP D&D, etc. But then computers start spread, Internet start cheapen - and all that middle-class who played still ordinary easy single-player games discovered for them MMOs. And first to discover that was WoW devs in Blizzard. Wow, there is such a big market for WoW! Take ideas from EQ, UO, SWG etc. - dumb them down to be eatable for masses, nerf down graphics so that every mid- or low-class punter could run it - and there we got what we need. Millions of subs, crowd crying halleluuuyah and hosiannas, hordes fo wow-fanboys ready to kill everybody who don't agree. And with wow changed too mentality - rush-tuns to so called end-game, farming gear to prolong their e-peens etc.
And now it's much-much easier and cheaper to estamp wow-clones with same business models - put Z amount of mobney in, take 2 x Z or 3 x Z or... out. That is why we see in every god-forgotten spot on planet some MacDonalds or Hesburger or some other crap fastfood boutique, but Michelin Star restourants we don't find even not in every capital city. Who takes risk? And in business look - why take a risk? When we already know that takeing risk means if not fail, it will be 2-3-4-5 times less income than in pipelining crap. If even there would be idealtists, some indie company - still they need big money to invest in years waitiing (if) payback in future. And even then that new hardcore could be fail cuz wellknown IPs cost big money, to make hardcore game needs times more money - and then we, former EQ, UO, SWG players come and see - that world isn't such big, their epic quests aren't so quality as in our (name-it-here) legendary game which was made and financed by some big wallet company like SOE or such.
And in this look on future it IS sad. And stay such (like in movies, books and other entertainment) cuz braindead masses swallow all they will given and pay for it (look that movie Idiocracy LOL). And such a game, hardcore by our best means could happened only when some big hardcore fan with really big wallet (be it Henry Ford IX or Steve Jobs III or...) will go mad by stupidity of MMO market and says - f000ck, why I must by another 10 Ferraris and fifths jet-plane or B-787 or ............. I wanna game I like and hires most brilliant brains and devs, buys most good IP and start some New Game. And even it will be only for that little 10% of higher end players that's good. If it makes new star and makes a lot income, better
It's not my intention to hijack this thread into polytics, but your remark made me laugh. I agree to your remark, but not about the US being the only super power. Azia has enough soldiers to occupy the whole world but their economy doesn't require them to start and support new wars like the USA does.
For me Hardcore is the level of focus you need to have on a game, due to the possible penalties inflicted.
For instance, I used to play Diablo II on Hardcore, where any character death was permanent. After that going back to normal mode never game me the same feeling of intensity when playing my character.
I could also look at EvE online where the possibility of losing a ship is a real issue.
Yet another article that could've been quite effectively condensed to a single paragraph.
Either way, "hardcore" is a gamer meme that references a difficult and/or time-consuming game or activity that only a small percentage of the overall playerbase would attempt or enjoy.
I would not say "depth" has anything to do with "hardcore". Example: WoW has a lot of depth. The story in the game is very fleshed out and deep. There is a lot of lore to discover. The character progression has multiple avenues in which someone can focus deeply to become good at. But those are some aspects. Others would argue that the game is shallow as it takes a brainless monkey with 8 hours a day of game time to max out your toon as long as you install a few addons and do as the raid leader says.
The good about "hardcore" is that if it is incorporated into a game that could be satisfactory for either the "hardcore" or the "casual" crowds and then extremely fun for the other then you have a game that self-promotes and allows for a much larger playerbase. A game that allows both "hardcore" and "casual" allows players to jump from one to the other freely, then I would call it a good thing.
If you have a game deemed as "hardcore" in and of itself, then I would say it is inherently flawed. You force the base to be smaller and the community to be clique-y. If elitism and cliques dominate the community, the game is bound to fail or stay very small. This discourages some players of any variety from joining the game.
The best about "hardcore" is that it adds variety and to the social dynamics. Mix "hardcore" and "casual" and you have the joys of watching an elitist wave his epeen around and then round a corner to find a group of casuals having a large bit of fun discussing low or mid-range gear. You can then find other people who can amass unbelievable fortunes in any game.
Its all subjective. To be objective you must determine which topic or frame you want to define and then find the common ground between all of the target demographic. From there you quatify what you want to measure. Do you define the player by thier gear? The money they have? The items they own? The hours theyve played? Do you define the game by the hours to reach level X? The % of the players that attempt X fail Y times before succeeding? The number of expected deaths to accomplish X? The time it takes to complete X?
TL:DR: A bag of potatoes to go with the thin strip of meat.
Ultima Online (pre-Tram) = Hardcore
early Everquest = Hardcore
SWG (pre CU) = borderline hardcore*
Darkfall = Hardcore
WoW =/= Hardcore
Everquest 2 =/= Hardcore
All Points Bulletin =/= Hardcore
City of Heroes =/= Hardcore
Those are all of the MMO's that I have played extensively. I still play WoW because their is nothing that suits my style right now (UO and SWG was my style), so I wast time with it.
BY far, the most fun I have ever had were in hardcore games.
*The only thing keeping SWG from being full blown hardcore, was the option to be overt or covert. I loved the system as it was, but it lost some of the fearing for your life aspect . . . unless you were a Jedi.
To me, hardcore means you can make a name for yourself, whether it be in combat, crafting, or just being the local idiot. You could do that in the first four games I mentioned. You can't do that in the last four.
What is hardcore to me,
There is no hardcore in my eyes, there are games that are written correctly and then there are games that are written by formulas or spreadsheets.
The first kind tend to be started by smaller companies that want to write something that they want to play and if others want to play them then all the better. These games tend to be some what niche, harsh, unforgiving. It's play the way of the game and get on with it or go play something else.
If you get spat out into the world in you new char and wander into the wrong place then you die, that's it, try again. If you want to be a big scarey beast then put in the time and effort and work towards that goal. Everything you get is a case of risk
eward where the risk is real (as in, lose all your stuff not "have to go and repair for 1 gold")
The other type tend to be pumped out by the larger production houses and people that just want to make money off the industry. As such they tend to try and make everything easily accesable. They lack any deviation from "what's worked before" beside a thin veil of "shiny new graphics" and a resetting of location and follow lots of psychological ways of making you play rather than getting you to play because it's fun.
So, "hardcore" games tend to be the harder to get into, not trying to spoon feed them selves to everyone, ok with the fact that only a set group of people will want to play, complex, intreaging, more focus on game play and entertaining than the less "hardcore" mmos.
The reason that "hardcore" games are better?
They're actually interesting and not just using psycological traps to get the player to stay sitting there clicking away.
That said... battletoads... hardcore
To me hardcore game means that gamer skill (quick thinking/reactions, knowledge, experience, etc..) translates into coresponding gameplay outcome.
It can be either a pass/fail outcome where only players above a decent level of skill make it, or a ladder, where the upper players are recognized and rewarded.
A game that is not hardcore is often described as "easy to jump into" or things like that. There is no learning curve or very shallow learning curve. And there is limited outcome difference between a very good player and a player who hardly knows how to operate a computer. Everyone is a winner if they cough up the $$$.
As to why hardcore is good.. well obviously if you consider yourself a skilfull gamer, or even just a competitive gamer then playing a game where how you play makes little difference, where the game is a themepark ride rather then a challenge to beat is simply unfun.
This guy is a casual and needs to go back to WoW. Easy mode awaits you.
I stopped believing what the masses considered hardcore when my friends little girl was watching a Powerpuff Girls episode and Bubbles said in an angry tone "I'm Hardcore now." It use to be hardcode was considered that the environment was extreamly challenging / dangerious to the point where if you went too far out a comfort zone you had a chance to lose your body, gear, along with experience. IE: EQ when you went on a Hate raid and had a chance to lose your body and gear if you couldn't get someone to help you get it back.
Over the years guilds have "claimed" the hardcore title for being heavy raiders, DKP systems, or even potential punishment for missing raids. Hardcore players in guilds could be those that might be the best geared and have a significant amount of research done on encounters to make the best attempt on them as possible. At some point in the future there will be old men sitting on a porch arguing over who was more hardcore back in the day. Those days will be fun to watch.
Now are these bad things? Not at all, they are a style of play some people prefer. As time as progressed in the MMO world there was been a steady increase in the interest of a more casual style of play. The line was been drawn even more clearly between the two and of course there is conflict on what game is more one or the other. As long as the gaming industry can make a solid return on their investment by opening the door to both it won't matter which is better. It will only matter that both options are available and offer acceptable content to those specific groups. Myself, I prefer a mixture as having a real life responsibilities take priority, but I can't say either side has anything over the other.
END OF LINE_
~V
Many of you in this thread use casual or hardcore as if they were bad words. When you grow up you will realize that different people like different things and, its okay.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga