The churn of "casuials" pays more of the bills than the long term users (They do not use 15$ worth of resources per month). Its a steadfast rule that with a subscription based model:
"You are over charging half your player base, and undercharging the other half".
Simply put, those that only play a little bit here and there, are being over charged, those that spend all day in the game, all week, are being undercharged.
Is this why we see claims of "OMG ill end up paying more than my monthly sub" from some users? Is this the REAL issue with the "ala carte" or episodic systems we see today? You now need to pay your full bill? Granted, long term users do create a draw for other users, but it dosnt offset the cost.
/discuss
Everyone overpays for MMO's. The vast majority we're paying to finish developing after release. *EDIT* Not to mention we already pay 40-60$ for some, and then subscribe to unfinished business.
What makes no sense to me is if you only have so much time to play a game (none basically, if all you can manage is 3 hrs a month).
Why play games that cost you monthly? If I only have 15 minutes a month to work out in a gym, why not just run instead? The price of entry is the price of entry. If it's not cost efficient for you, why bother to enter?
Because we live in a cultural mindset where you should A) Get a trophy for showing up express outrage over issues of zero consequence based upon some murky or trumped up sense of principle, and C) blame others for choices we make instead of accepting responsibility for them.
To date, a monthly sub of $10-$15 is chicken feed, you go to a decent burger place and pay that much for a single meal with a drink. The U.S. Dollar is worth half of what it was just 10 years ago and people are raising a fuss about paying such a small amount with the high demands of availability, content, and performance that is so typically bandied about these days as a minimal must have? I mean...really???
If a player can only play say 10 hours a month in a game and is thus spending more per hour for his play than someone who has 10 hours a day to play, I'd say the one who's playing 10 hrs a month has a much more eventful life and is winning in that scoring dept. To express some sort of indignant nerd rage over how much his play time costs vs some pimply kid with no life is getting is (IMHO) the height of petty self importance. Seriously, if that's all you can play and you find the notion of paying the same amount as someone who can play more, your priorities needs a reassessment, starting with accepting the responsibility for the choices you made to A) have such a demanding life schedule and buying a game that you know in advance is time consuming and for which you truly don't have the free time to engage in.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
Well, it explains why there is such a boom in catering to casual players. It means a hell of a lot more profit than thoses that use their servies much more.
What makes no sense to me is if you only have so much time to play a game (none basically, if all you can manage is 3 hrs a month).
Why play games that cost you monthly? If I only have 15 minutes a month to work out in a gym, why not just run instead? The price of entry is the price of entry. If it's not cost efficient for you, why bother to enter?
Because we live in a cultural mindset where you should A) Get a trophy for showing up express outrage over issues of zero consequence based upon some murky or trumped up sense of principle, and C) blame others for choices we make instead of accepting responsibility for them.
To date, a monthly sub of $10-$15 is chicken feed, you go to a decent burger place and pay that much for a single meal with a drink. The U.S. Dollar is worth half of what it was just 10 years ago and people are raising a fuss about paying such a small amount with the high demands of availability, content, and performance that is so typically bandied about these days as a minimal must have? I mean...really???
If a player can only play say 10 hours a month in a game and is thus spending more per hour for his play than someone who has 10 hours a day to play, I'd say the one who's playing 10 hrs a month has a much more eventful life and is winning in that scoring dept. To express some sort of indignant nerd rage over how much his play time costs vs some pimply kid with no life is getting is (IMHO) the height of petty self importance. Seriously, if that's all you can play and you find the notion of paying the same amount as someone who can play more, your priorities needs a reassessment, starting with accepting the responsibility for the choices you made to A) have such a demanding life schedule and buying a game that you know in advance is time consuming and for which you truly don't have the free time to engage in.
What makes no sense to me is if you only have so much time to play a game (none basically, if all you can manage is 3 hrs a month).
Why play games that cost you monthly? If I only have 15 minutes a month to work out in a gym, why not just run instead? The price of entry is the price of entry. If it's not cost efficient for you, why bother to enter?
Because we live in a cultural mindset where you should A) Get a trophy for showing up express outrage over issues of zero consequence based upon some murky or trumped up sense of principle, and C) blame others for choices we make instead of accepting responsibility for them.
To date, a monthly sub of $10-$15 is chicken feed, you go to a decent burger place and pay that much for a single meal with a drink. The U.S. Dollar is worth half of what it was just 10 years ago and people are raising a fuss about paying such a small amount with the high demands of availability, content, and performance that is so typically bandied about these days as a minimal must have? I mean...really???
If a player can only play say 10 hours a month in a game and is thus spending more per hour for his play than someone who has 10 hours a day to play, I'd say the one who's playing 10 hrs a month has a much more eventful life and is winning in that scoring dept. To express some sort of indignant nerd rage over how much his play time costs vs some pimply kid with no life is getting is (IMHO) the height of petty self importance. Seriously, if that's all you can play and you find the notion of paying the same amount as someone who can play more, your priorities needs a reassessment, starting with accepting the responsibility for the choices you made to A) have such a demanding life schedule and buying a game that you know in advance is time consuming and for which you truly don't have the free time to engage in.
Great post, maybe the OP's next thread should be titled: If developers start offering us more, should they start charging us more?".
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
"You are over charging half your player base, and undercharging the other half".
The entire logic behind this is flawed. It's a straw man argument with no straw. $15 a month gives you an all access pass 24/7 so unless you (or the account via more than one person playing in shifts) are logged in the entire month you are being over charged since your not getting full use of the account. So everyone is being overcharged since there is no way humanly possible to play the entire month. How on earth can you undercharge someone who is paying the maximum amount for the service already?
Your assuming $15 is either too much or too little and should read Goldilocks and the Three Bears to get the basic prinicple of how it's actually just right.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Seriously? Do people lay in bed at night losing sleep because they are worried that since they only played for 6 hours this week that they are paying too much ($15.00 a month) and losing money? Is there a panic attack epidemic in the MMO community or soemthing over this? Is there some other form of entertainment that I am unaware of where for fifteen bucks a month you can jump in anytime day or night and partake of for as long as you can stand to stay awake or not have to go to work? Fifteen dollars doesnt' even get me a movie ticket, a drink, some popcorn and a box of candy at the theater, and that only lasts 2 hours, if I'm lucky. Seriously, fifteen dollars a month is a steal even if you only played for 3 hours that month.
I see your point. I personally hate the F2P and stores becuase they engineer it to make it required. Perhaps a different subscription model would be better something like $8.99 for less then 40 hours a month and $14.99 for 40 or more hours per month.
Could you verify that?
I play a couple F2P and am NOT REQUIRED to use Item Mall unless I choose to.
My charactors do just fine without it.
There are potions and other things that can enhance Skills but only in PVE, not in PvP....
Which F2Ps?
Honestly, is this entire discussion just a jab at P2P hoping somehow to point out F2P is superior some way? And lets be honest most seriors long lasting (alot of content) F2P mmos i knoe cost way way more than P2P games and you get less for it. U wannt play alantica be ready to pay up.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
Alternatively, half the the people paying $15/month are getting a good deal, the other half are getting an AMAZING deal. Given the earlier examples (i.e. a night at the movies), I tend to lean towards this viewpoint myself. From a value perspective, the "fair price" is not necessary at the median time-used/money-spent point.
We all allready know that 15$ is rather cheap for entertainment, to bring it up is a bit outside the scope of the topic.
Bringing up the monthly cost is exactly the scope of this topic. Companies that operate (and profit) on 15$ a month subs would lose money by going to a pay by the hour system if they kept their cap at 15$ a month for those who play the most. As in f2p games, where those who do pay often end up paying more than they would for a subscription game, someone else will pick up the tab if subscribers who spend very few hours playing get to pay less per month for access.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
I wish the OP could understand that if the industry was to shift towards F2P, it would be to make everybody pay more...not to be "fair" with casuals...
OP the entire premise is flawed. No one is over or under charged. in p2p everyone is charged the same. That different people make different use of what they get doesn't translate into being over or under charged.
An MMO sets the price for a month of play for 15 bucks. Thats what you pay for, thats what you get. The original premise diliberately mistakes what people are charged for (a month of access) and how they actually make use of it.
If 2 guys buy a car and one drives it only on the weekends, and the other drives it every day, has one been overcharged and the other under? No of course not.
What makes no sense to me is if you only have so much time to play a game (none basically, if all you can manage is 3 hrs a month).
Why play games that cost you monthly? If I only have 15 minutes a month to work out in a gym, why not just run instead? The price of entry is the price of entry. If it's not cost efficient for you, why bother to enter?
Because we live in a cultural mindset where you should A) Get a trophy for showing up express outrage over issues of zero consequence based upon some murky or trumped up sense of principle, and C) blame others for choices we make instead of accepting responsibility for them.
To date, a monthly sub of $10-$15 is chicken feed, you go to a decent burger place and pay that much for a single meal with a drink. The U.S. Dollar is worth half of what it was just 10 years ago and people are raising a fuss about paying such a small amount with the high demands of availability, content, and performance that is so typically bandied about these days as a minimal must have? I mean...really???
If a player can only play say 10 hours a month in a game and is thus spending more per hour for his play than someone who has 10 hours a day to play, I'd say the one who's playing 10 hrs a month has a much more eventful life and is winning in that scoring dept. To express some sort of indignant nerd rage over how much his play time costs vs some pimply kid with no life is getting is (IMHO) the height of petty self importance. Seriously, if that's all you can play and you find the notion of paying the same amount as someone who can play more, your priorities needs a reassessment, starting with accepting the responsibility for the choices you made to A) have such a demanding life schedule and buying a game that you know in advance is time consuming and for which you truly don't have the free time to engage in.
/thread
Brilliant post.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
OP the entire premise is flawed. No one is over or under charged. in p2p everyone is charged the same. That different people make different use of what they get doesn't translate into being over or under charged.
An MMO sets the price for a month of play for 15 bucks. Thats what you pay for, thats what you get. The original premise diliberately mistakes what people are charged for (a month of access) and how they actually make use of it.
If 2 guys buy a car and one drives it only on the weekends, and the other drives it every day, has one been overcharged and the other under? No of course not.
Maybe the one guy only gets to use the car on weekends because the other guy uses it all week which means yes the one guy has been overcharged. An MMO is an equal use item so a better analogy would be if 2 roomates pay the same ammount of rent but one stays at his GF's all weekend long....... Just saying.
OP the entire premise is flawed. No one is over or under charged. in p2p everyone is charged the same. That different people make different use of what they get doesn't translate into being over or under charged.
An MMO sets the price for a month of play for 15 bucks. Thats what you pay for, thats what you get. The original premise diliberately mistakes what people are charged for (a month of access) and how they actually make use of it.
If 2 guys buy a car and one drives it only on the weekends, and the other drives it every day, has one been overcharged and the other under? No of course not.
Maybe the one guy only gets to use the car on weekends because the other guy uses it all week which means yes the one guy has been overcharged. An MMO is an equal use item so a better analogy would be if 2 roomates pay the same ammount of rent but one stays at his GF's all weekend long....... Just saying.
Maybe, but thats not what either I or the OP proposed.
You are completely incorrect. F2P + RMT when a user doesn'y buy anything is FREE!.
Yeah, in theory.
But in reality you're not being treated the same way and don't get the same items, don't get access to the items you need, don't get the good potions / trinkets, you know how it goes, it's always like that..
Bad F2P is bad. Good F2P is good.
League of Legends and DDO (mostly) are good F2P.
Discussing bad F2P systems is almost useless and irrelevant, as most here will agree they're bad systems.
I completely agree. However, unlike the P2P model which is, in general, very cut and dry (buy game, pay static monthly fee, buy expansion, continue paying static monthly fee, etc), the F2P model is typically unique to each game. In short, the company managing the game is tasked with creating a model that they think will have people contribute $$$ to their revenue stream.
Sometimes these models make sense to the average end-user (us), such as cosmetic items only, or name/server changes, but other times they don't (offering exclusive items/mounts/bonuses through a cash shop that cannot be achieved elsewhere). It is only a bad system if it isn't palatable to the players and therefore the game will stagnate and fail.
Each person is responsible for deciding exactly what they are willing to pay to enjoy a F2P game, as opposed to knowing exactly what they have to pay in order to play a P2P game.
I dont agree, you are basically being charged an admittion price. Its like going to an amusement park, if you only spend a few hours, or dont use all the rides, should you be charged differently vs someone who uses them all and spends more time there? How about someone who spends more time but uses a few rides over and over?
I have always prefered blanket access to everything, leaving the choice of what I do up to me, than to change what I pay if I want to do something different. I know some parks make you pay for different areas, like a water park area vs the general ride area, but lets call those expansion packs =P
Alternatively, half the the people paying $15/month are getting a good deal, the other half are getting an AMAZING deal. Given the earlier examples (i.e. a night at the movies), I tend to lean towards this viewpoint myself. From a value perspective, the "fair price" is not necessary at the median time-used/money-spent point.
We all allready know that 15$ is rather cheap for entertainment, to bring it up is a bit outside the scope of the topic.
I think it becomes difficult to say they are "over charging" without bringing up the cost.
Besides the fact that they aren't "over charging" for anything.
they state that for a sub fee per month you get "x".
in relation to a lot of other entertainment "x" is very cheap.
And if you access their service a lot then it becomes VERY cheap as compared to other types of entertaiment.
So it then becomes a bit difficult to accept that there is any type of overcharging:
A, players know up front what they are paying for and what they can get
B, as compared to other types of entertaiment it's a pittance
However, let's run with it. Say I pay 15 per month and only log in 30 minutes per month. I know up front that I have the option to play more but I can't. Then I have to make a decision as to whether or not it's "worth" it to me to pay for access. They are not overcharging me as the onus is on me to take advantage of what I pay for.
If I pay for cable tv and watch 30 minutes per month, one doesn't say they overcharge me. One says that I am not taking advantage of what I've paid for and should rethink it if it's causing issues or if I think it's becoming a waste of money.
When thinking of overcharging one usually think that the company in question charged the customer more than what was expected or they are charging more for their services than similiar businesses AND not giving more value for the extra cost.
Here in Cambridge MA there is a dessert place that charges up to 15 dollars or so for some of their desserts. Usually 12 or so. One could say "hey, they are overcharging as most restaurants might charge you 3 to 5 dollars for dessert. However, Not only are their desserts presented far bettter and the decor is far better than many dessert places but they taste amazing. It is clear that they are many cuts above a regular piece of pie.
So people pay it and have a great experience. If these desserts were not made by pastry chefs and tasted like a regular piece of cake you might get at a diner then "yes" they would be overcharging.
Just becuase a player is not accessing what he paid for doesn't mean the company is overcharging. It means the player needs to learn how to use his money.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Thats becouse half are being overcharged, its not that hard to understand. No where did I say this was a bank breaking issue. Its a relitive thing, your 15 is not the same as the other guys 15 in reguatds to the output. Come back when you can discuss things, insted of trying to win the forum war good soilder.
See, it's all fine and dandy but the main thesis is wrong.
You think you pay for gameplay hours, and that's not exactly true. What you pay for with those 15 bucks is a right to access the service for given time period. It's up to you how you will use those access rights, just like every other service.Your 15 bucks and the other 15 bucks are exaclty the same, the company provides you exaclty the same opportunity for you to use your month, and it''s only your problem whenever you use it up to full extent or not.
It's same as paying for your internet access or your cable tv.
Thats becouse half are being overcharged, its not that hard to understand. No where did I say this was a bank breaking issue. Its a relitive thing, your 15 is not the same as the other guys 15 in reguatds to the output. Come back when you can discuss things, insted of trying to win the forum war good soilder.
I'll disagree. I say the minimum price point to play is the monthly sub, regardless whether you play 1 hour or 100, sort of like monthly membership to a gym or golf course.
Doesn't matter if you go daily, weekly or once a month, the fee is the fee is the fee, up to you to take advanatage of the deal.
Of course, in the case of golf courses (not gyms so much) there are courses (usually public) that let you pay as you go, which of course saves money for the infrequent player. And just like in MMO's, pay as you go golf course are usually an inferior gaming experience compared to the monthly, actually, usually annual sub with an initiation fee (a bit like paying for the box price in a game)
My father paid the same amount to be a member of a course whether he played 3 times a month or 15.... just the minimum cost of participating.
Yes, but now that games are moving from the former, to the later, is the bill a shocking discovery and fuel for the fires of hate?
No, they shouldn't be. I'm currently paying for 3 EVE subs on a monthly basis and have spent about 125.00 on a F2P game (I can afford it, wasn't necessary to spend the money, I just chose to make my gaming experience more convenient) and I don't really care, if the game is fun, I'm going to pay the fare regardless of the payment model.
Put yourself in the shoes of a hard-core gamer then, Spending 140+ hours a week/ (3$-hour) And thats 420$ for Just that week, Is that truly fair?
"In a subscription based game, you are overcharging half your player base, and undercharging the rest".
I disagree.
When you pay a subscription to a MMO, you are paying for access to the MMO. After I consider every possible benefit, ever advantage, ever disadvantage, for me the best possible funding model of a MMO has been and remains a subscription based model.
If the MMO Publishers/Developers need more than $15 a month to access their MMO, than I would be completely willing to pay more... $20, $25, even $30 depending on the quality of the MMO. For instance I would be willing to pay $30 per month for LotRO right now, but when it goes F2P... with a Cash Shop staring me in the face and NPCs talking about Turbine Points....with artificial gates everywhere cutting up the landscape and diminishing the open world feel... no way.
AND in no way am I "rich" in real life. I am medically retired and on a very fixed income. For me it has to do with "bang for the buck" in entertainment spending. Even if I paid $50 a month to access a MMO, I would be spending far less than other people I know in real life that live near me and spend more than that every week drinking themselves stupid in the local Tavern in my home town. I would rather spend my time and entertainment dollars enjoying a good MMO; A MMO where there is no financial connection between the real and the virtual, where if I want to get the good armor and weapons I have to earn it thru adventuring and completing quests ingame, where earning faction means something, where being a good and skilled Player is a badge of honor and respect....where I get out of the game what I put into it... good old fashioned MMO gaming. The fact that I have to call it that when the MMO genre is only a decade or so old is sad to be honest.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!" ............... "I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. " __Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__ ...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
Bringing up the monthly cost is exactly the scope of this topic.
I simply meant that, yes, 15$ isn't much, that’s a given. Some people don’t care, or are satisfied, that’s also a given that’s its subjective. This was nothing about how expensive things are. But in terms of what a user costs the company, some people are floating others. The point being, in a system where you pay for the content you consume, it exposes those that have been being floated by others, to how much they really cost, in a direct manner. In some cases, the bill may be more than they thought. And I believe this fuels some of the dislike or outright hate of these systems. So, the price point of 15$ was never the point, it is a discussion on how that fifteen is split up, and how it contrasts with the different payment systems that are becoming more prevalent, some one would say, because a majority of players are asking for it.
People such as Seeker728 have misconstrued the topic of the thread. It has nothing to do with how I feel, it’s about the cost of operation, and why we may be seeing more systems like this. One, people are asking for it, and two with casuals being casual, hardcore are being looked at to pay there own bills or to at least cover what they consume.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
The churn of "casuials" pays more of the bills than the long term users (They do not use 15$ worth of resources per month). Its a steadfast rule that with a subscription based model:
"You are over charging half your player base, and undercharging the other half".
Simply put, those that only play a little bit here and there, are being over charged, those that spend all day in the game, all week, are being undercharged.
Is this why we see claims of "OMG ill end up paying more than my monthly sub" from some users? Is this the REAL issue with the "ala carte" or episodic systems we see today? You now need to pay your full bill? Granted, long term users do create a draw for other users, but it dosnt offset the cost.
/discuss
hopefully they do start charging by hour , that way YOU will wind up paying more than 15 dollars a month, and you will regret ever bringing this stupid , selfish arguement up... You are complaining abouta 15 dollar a month sub, but that means you can log in whenever you want throughout the month wihout having to worry about running out of time.
15 dollars a month is cheap. Casual people play more than enough, and 15 dollars a month will probably turn into 30 dollars a month for the most casual people.
Bringing up the monthly cost is exactly the scope of this topic.
I simply meant that, yes, 15$ isn't much, that’s a given. Some people don’t care, or are satisfied, that’s also a given that’s its subjective. This was nothing about how expensive things are. But in terms of what a user costs the company, some people are floating others. The point being, in a system where you pay for the content you consume, it exposes those that have been being floated by others, to how much they really cost, in a direct manner. In some cases, the bill may be more than they thought. And I believe this fuels some of the dislike or outright hate of these systems. So, the price point of 15$ was never the point, it is a discussion on how that fifteen is split up, and how it contrasts with the different payment systems that are becoming more prevalent, some one would say, because a majority of players are asking for it.
People such as Seeker728 have misconstrued the topic of the thread. It has nothing to do with how I feel, it’s about the cost of operation, and why we may be seeing more systems like this. One, people are asking for it, and two with casuals being casual, hardcore are being looked at to pay there own bills or to at least cover what they consume.
The user doesn't cost the company anyways. They have to keep the servers up regardless. So what is the cost you are talking about? I think this whole suggestion is just childish, if not selfish.
"In a subscription based game, you are overcharging half your player base, and undercharging the rest".
I disagree.
When you pay a subscription to a MMO, you are paying for access to the MMO. After I consider every possible benefit, ever advantage, ever disadvantage, for me the best possible funding model of a MMO has been and remains a subscription based model.
If the MMO Publishers/Developers need more than $15 a month to access their MMO, than I would be completely willing to pay more... $20, $25, even $30 depending on the quality of the MMO. For instance I would be willing to pay $30 per month for LotRO right now, but when it goes F2P... with a Cash Shop staring me in the face and NPCs talking about Turbine Points....with artificial gates everywhere cutting up the landscape and diminishing the open world feel... no way.
AND in no way am I "rich" in real life. I am medically retired and on a very fixed income. For me it has to do with "bang for the buck" in entertainment spending. Even if I paid $50 a month to access a MMO, I would be spending far less than other people I know in real life that live near me and spend more than that every week drinking themselves stupid in the local Tavern in my home town. I would rather spend my time and entertainment dollars enjoying a good MMO; A MMO where there is no financial connection between the real and the virtual, where if I want to get the good armor and weapons I have to earn it thru adventuring and completing quests ingame, where earning faction means something, where being a good and skilled Player is a badge of honor and respect....where I get out of the game what I put into it... good old fashioned MMO gaming. The fact that I have to call it that when the MMO genre is only a decade or so old is sad to be honest.
I wouldn't pay 30-50 dollars a month. I would pay the standard 15 dollars a month, 20 dollars would be pushing it.
I would have to make a choice between my cigarettes and the game, and the cigarettes come first. I already had to cut back on my case of beer so I can pay certain subs
Bringing up the monthly cost is exactly the scope of this topic.
I simply meant that, yes, 15$ isn't much, that’s a given. Some people don’t care, or are satisfied, that’s also a given that’s its subjective. This was nothing about how expensive things are. But in terms of what a user costs the company, some people are floating others. The point being, in a system where you pay for the content you consume, it exposes those that have been being floated by others, to how much they really cost, in a direct manner. In some cases, the bill may be more than they thought. And I believe this fuels some of the dislike or outright hate of these systems. So, the price point of 15$ was never the point, it is a discussion on how that fifteen is split up, and how it contrasts with the different payment systems that are becoming more prevalent, some one would say, because a majority of players are asking for it.
People such as Seeker728 have misconstrued the topic of the thread. It has nothing to do with how I feel, it’s about the cost of operation, and why we may be seeing more systems like this. One, people are asking for it, and two with casuals being casual, hardcore are being looked at to pay there own bills or to at least cover what they consume.
I can't believe you have 5533 posts on this forums and are that clueless that if they implemented this system you would wind up paying more.
They don't charge this kind of fee's because all the players would go play another game instead, and they would lose money. If only casual players could afford to play they wouldn't be making money out of this stupid idea, they would lose money.
Comments
Everyone overpays for MMO's. The vast majority we're paying to finish developing after release. *EDIT* Not to mention we already pay 40-60$ for some, and then subscribe to unfinished business.
Because we live in a cultural mindset where you should A) Get a trophy for showing up
express outrage over issues of zero consequence based upon some murky or trumped up sense of principle, and C) blame others for choices we make instead of accepting responsibility for them.
To date, a monthly sub of $10-$15 is chicken feed, you go to a decent burger place and pay that much for a single meal with a drink. The U.S. Dollar is worth half of what it was just 10 years ago and people are raising a fuss about paying such a small amount with the high demands of availability, content, and performance that is so typically bandied about these days as a minimal must have? I mean...really???
If a player can only play say 10 hours a month in a game and is thus spending more per hour for his play than someone who has 10 hours a day to play, I'd say the one who's playing 10 hrs a month has a much more eventful life and is winning in that scoring dept. To express some sort of indignant nerd rage over how much his play time costs vs some pimply kid with no life is getting is (IMHO) the height of petty self importance. Seriously, if that's all you can play and you find the notion of paying the same amount as someone who can play more, your priorities needs a reassessment, starting with accepting the responsibility for the choices you made to A) have such a demanding life schedule and
buying a game that you know in advance is time consuming and for which you truly don't have the free time to engage in.
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Well, it explains why there is such a boom in catering to casual players. It means a hell of a lot more profit than thoses that use their servies much more.
Great post, maybe the OP's next thread should be titled: If developers start offering us more, should they start charging us more?".
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"You are over charging half your player base, and undercharging the other half".
The entire logic behind this is flawed. It's a straw man argument with no straw. $15 a month gives you an all access pass 24/7 so unless you (or the account via more than one person playing in shifts) are logged in the entire month you are being over charged since your not getting full use of the account. So everyone is being overcharged since there is no way humanly possible to play the entire month. How on earth can you undercharge someone who is paying the maximum amount for the service already?
Your assuming $15 is either too much or too little and should read Goldilocks and the Three Bears to get the basic prinicple of how it's actually just right.
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Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/Seriously? Do people lay in bed at night losing sleep because they are worried that since they only played for 6 hours this week that they are paying too much ($15.00 a month) and losing money? Is there a panic attack epidemic in the MMO community or soemthing over this? Is there some other form of entertainment that I am unaware of where for fifteen bucks a month you can jump in anytime day or night and partake of for as long as you can stand to stay awake or not have to go to work? Fifteen dollars doesnt' even get me a movie ticket, a drink, some popcorn and a box of candy at the theater, and that only lasts 2 hours, if I'm lucky. Seriously, fifteen dollars a month is a steal even if you only played for 3 hours that month.
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Which F2Ps?
Honestly, is this entire discussion just a jab at P2P hoping somehow to point out F2P is superior some way? And lets be honest most seriors long lasting (alot of content) F2P mmos i knoe cost way way more than P2P games and you get less for it. U wannt play alantica be ready to pay up.
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Bringing up the monthly cost is exactly the scope of this topic. Companies that operate (and profit) on 15$ a month subs would lose money by going to a pay by the hour system if they kept their cap at 15$ a month for those who play the most. As in f2p games, where those who do pay often end up paying more than they would for a subscription game, someone else will pick up the tab if subscribers who spend very few hours playing get to pay less per month for access.
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I wish the OP could understand that if the industry was to shift towards F2P, it would be to make everybody pay more...not to be "fair" with casuals...
OP the entire premise is flawed. No one is over or under charged. in p2p everyone is charged the same. That different people make different use of what they get doesn't translate into being over or under charged.
An MMO sets the price for a month of play for 15 bucks. Thats what you pay for, thats what you get. The original premise diliberately mistakes what people are charged for (a month of access) and how they actually make use of it.
If 2 guys buy a car and one drives it only on the weekends, and the other drives it every day, has one been overcharged and the other under? No of course not.
/thread
Brilliant post.
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
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What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
Maybe the one guy only gets to use the car on weekends because the other guy uses it all week which means yes the one guy has been overcharged. An MMO is an equal use item so a better analogy would be if 2 roomates pay the same ammount of rent but one stays at his GF's all weekend long....... Just saying.
Maybe, but thats not what either I or the OP proposed.
I completely agree. However, unlike the P2P model which is, in general, very cut and dry (buy game, pay static monthly fee, buy expansion, continue paying static monthly fee, etc), the F2P model is typically unique to each game. In short, the company managing the game is tasked with creating a model that they think will have people contribute $$$ to their revenue stream.
Sometimes these models make sense to the average end-user (us), such as cosmetic items only, or name/server changes, but other times they don't (offering exclusive items/mounts/bonuses through a cash shop that cannot be achieved elsewhere). It is only a bad system if it isn't palatable to the players and therefore the game will stagnate and fail.
Each person is responsible for deciding exactly what they are willing to pay to enjoy a F2P game, as opposed to knowing exactly what they have to pay in order to play a P2P game.
I dont agree, you are basically being charged an admittion price. Its like going to an amusement park, if you only spend a few hours, or dont use all the rides, should you be charged differently vs someone who uses them all and spends more time there? How about someone who spends more time but uses a few rides over and over?
I have always prefered blanket access to everything, leaving the choice of what I do up to me, than to change what I pay if I want to do something different. I know some parks make you pay for different areas, like a water park area vs the general ride area, but lets call those expansion packs =P
I think it becomes difficult to say they are "over charging" without bringing up the cost.
Besides the fact that they aren't "over charging" for anything.
they state that for a sub fee per month you get "x".
in relation to a lot of other entertainment "x" is very cheap.
And if you access their service a lot then it becomes VERY cheap as compared to other types of entertaiment.
So it then becomes a bit difficult to accept that there is any type of overcharging:
A, players know up front what they are paying for and what they can get
B, as compared to other types of entertaiment it's a pittance
However, let's run with it. Say I pay 15 per month and only log in 30 minutes per month. I know up front that I have the option to play more but I can't. Then I have to make a decision as to whether or not it's "worth" it to me to pay for access. They are not overcharging me as the onus is on me to take advantage of what I pay for.
If I pay for cable tv and watch 30 minutes per month, one doesn't say they overcharge me. One says that I am not taking advantage of what I've paid for and should rethink it if it's causing issues or if I think it's becoming a waste of money.
When thinking of overcharging one usually think that the company in question charged the customer more than what was expected or they are charging more for their services than similiar businesses AND not giving more value for the extra cost.
Here in Cambridge MA there is a dessert place that charges up to 15 dollars or so for some of their desserts. Usually 12 or so. One could say "hey, they are overcharging as most restaurants might charge you 3 to 5 dollars for dessert. However, Not only are their desserts presented far bettter and the decor is far better than many dessert places but they taste amazing. It is clear that they are many cuts above a regular piece of pie.
So people pay it and have a great experience. If these desserts were not made by pastry chefs and tasted like a regular piece of cake you might get at a diner then "yes" they would be overcharging.
Just becuase a player is not accessing what he paid for doesn't mean the company is overcharging. It means the player needs to learn how to use his money.
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See, it's all fine and dandy but the main thesis is wrong.
You think you pay for gameplay hours, and that's not exactly true. What you pay for with those 15 bucks is a right to access the service for given time period. It's up to you how you will use those access rights, just like every other service.Your 15 bucks and the other 15 bucks are exaclty the same, the company provides you exaclty the same opportunity for you to use your month, and it''s only your problem whenever you use it up to full extent or not.
It's same as paying for your internet access or your cable tv.
Put yourself in the shoes of a hard-core gamer then, Spending 140+ hours a week/ (3$-hour) And thats 420$ for Just that week, Is that truly fair?
"In a subscription based game, you are overcharging half your player base, and undercharging the rest".
I disagree.
When you pay a subscription to a MMO, you are paying for access to the MMO. After I consider every possible benefit, ever advantage, ever disadvantage, for me the best possible funding model of a MMO has been and remains a subscription based model.
If the MMO Publishers/Developers need more than $15 a month to access their MMO, than I would be completely willing to pay more... $20, $25, even $30 depending on the quality of the MMO. For instance I would be willing to pay $30 per month for LotRO right now, but when it goes F2P... with a Cash Shop staring me in the face and NPCs talking about Turbine Points....with artificial gates everywhere cutting up the landscape and diminishing the open world feel... no way.
AND in no way am I "rich" in real life. I am medically retired and on a very fixed income. For me it has to do with "bang for the buck" in entertainment spending. Even if I paid $50 a month to access a MMO, I would be spending far less than other people I know in real life that live near me and spend more than that every week drinking themselves stupid in the local Tavern in my home town. I would rather spend my time and entertainment dollars enjoying a good MMO; A MMO where there is no financial connection between the real and the virtual, where if I want to get the good armor and weapons I have to earn it thru adventuring and completing quests ingame, where earning faction means something, where being a good and skilled Player is a badge of honor and respect....where I get out of the game what I put into it... good old fashioned MMO gaming. The fact that I have to call it that when the MMO genre is only a decade or so old is sad to be honest.
I am the Player that wonders... "What the %#*& just happened?!"
...............
"I Believe... There should be NO financial connection or portals between the Real World and the Virtual in MMOs. "
__Ever Present Cockroach of the MMO Verses__
...scurrying to and fro... .munching on bits of garbage... always under foot...
I simply meant that, yes, 15$ isn't much, that’s a given. Some people don’t care, or are satisfied, that’s also a given that’s its subjective. This was nothing about how expensive things are. But in terms of what a user costs the company, some people are floating others. The point being, in a system where you pay for the content you consume, it exposes those that have been being floated by others, to how much they really cost, in a direct manner. In some cases, the bill may be more than they thought. And I believe this fuels some of the dislike or outright hate of these systems. So, the price point of 15$ was never the point, it is a discussion on how that fifteen is split up, and how it contrasts with the different payment systems that are becoming more prevalent, some one would say, because a majority of players are asking for it.
People such as Seeker728 have misconstrued the topic of the thread. It has nothing to do with how I feel, it’s about the cost of operation, and why we may be seeing more systems like this. One, people are asking for it, and two with casuals being casual, hardcore are being looked at to pay there own bills or to at least cover what they consume.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
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How are you?" -Me
hopefully they do start charging by hour , that way YOU will wind up paying more than 15 dollars a month, and you will regret ever bringing this stupid , selfish arguement up... You are complaining abouta 15 dollar a month sub, but that means you can log in whenever you want throughout the month wihout having to worry about running out of time.
15 dollars a month is cheap. Casual people play more than enough, and 15 dollars a month will probably turn into 30 dollars a month for the most casual people.
The user doesn't cost the company anyways. They have to keep the servers up regardless. So what is the cost you are talking about? I think this whole suggestion is just childish, if not selfish.
I wouldn't pay 30-50 dollars a month. I would pay the standard 15 dollars a month, 20 dollars would be pushing it.
I would have to make a choice between my cigarettes and the game, and the cigarettes come first. I already had to cut back on my case of beer so I can pay certain subs
I can't believe you have 5533 posts on this forums and are that clueless that if they implemented this system you would wind up paying more.
They don't charge this kind of fee's because all the players would go play another game instead, and they would lose money. If only casual players could afford to play they wouldn't be making money out of this stupid idea, they would lose money.