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Why do MMO players moan so much?
Antipathy
Member UncommonPosts: 1,362
When I look at posts on this web site, a huge portion of them are very negative. People complaining about the lack of sandbox games. Or real death penalties. Or the imminent demise of P2P games. Or the dubious ethics of P2P companies. Or any one of a thousand different things. Some of these complaints are argued intelligently and articulately. Others are clearly made by clueless people who haven't thought in the slightest depth about what they are asking for.
When I look on the official WoW forums again, I see huge amounts of moaning. Class X is overpowered in PvP. Gear Score stops me raiding. PuG players are awful etc. etc.
I currently play in a WoW battlegroup (EU-Misery) where both sides are quite quite even, and stand good chances in any given battleground. However, the minute my side falls behind, battleground chat becomes full of moaning and personal attacks e.g. "Alliance are crap", "Player Y is a noob" etc. etc. I've heard Horde chat is much the same. Less than 50% of battleground chat consists of anything remotely tactically useful (e.g. calling incomings).
Sometimes I see such negativity when performing entirely innocent activities. E.g. a few weeks away I was hunting for a creature called the "Fel Reaver". I asked in zone chat, and the conversation was something like:
Me: Anyone seen the Fel Reaver?
Player: Just type "/t Fel Reaver"
Me: Tried that it didn't work
Player: You should be able to target it from half the zone away
Me: Well I can't. I've tried it and it didn't work.
Player: Well then your graphics settings are wrong. Your PC is crap. Get a new PC.
So I was asking for help in finding a single creature, and ended up with my PC being insulted...
There are so many moans that at times I find myself having to back away - e.g. taking a break from reading forums, because repeated exposure feels so depressing (and so many of the moans are, essentially, the same as others).
I can't help thinking "Is there a common factor"? Some of these moans may refer to legitimate problems, but the ratio of moaning to positivity seems to me to be heavily skewed in all these instances. Is there a deeper problem?
For example:
- Are people attracted to MMOs more likely to have a personality type that dwells on negative elements (e.g. pessimists or people prone to depression?)
- Is there something in the typical MMO players lifestyle that makes him more prone to negativity (e.g. lack of sunlight, poor diet).
- Many MMOs are designed to create regular small doses of pleasure (levelling up, new gear etc), which in turn can lead to addictive behaviour. When these doses of pleasure are in some way interrupted or delayed, do they lead to negativity? In other words, are the moans merely withdrawal symptoms?
- Or is this negativity a reflection of a culture of entitlement that goes well beyond the MMO industry?
Or are there several different factors at work here. Your opinions?
Comments
So you're whining about whining.
1) MMO's are shit.
2) People's expectations are too high, and the developers want to meet said expectations. The end result is 1).
Rinse and repeat.
This genre is the only genre where every game is supposed to do everything, build up on every feature from the past games and be innovative at the same time.
As soon as the MMO I like comes out, I'll jump off this trainwreck and let the community drown itself. I don't care.
To an extent I am. But I'm also a very analytical person. So I want to understand the whine. I want to know why people whine, and whether there are any deep reasons behind it, or whether all the negativity can be explained quite simply.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
I really can't argue with that.
The genre, though, does attract a large number of people, and unfortunately, like Xbox live, and these forums here, anonymity allows everyone to be asshats with no recourse because no one gave them positive reinforcement as a child or something. This is usually seen in the very loud and vocal minority, but I would say that it is a very small and distressing portion of the playerbase -- though many of them seem to culminate here on this site.
In that same avenue many of the most active people here and in MMOs only want to see one opinion, theirs, and care about only one thing, themselves, and it creates a very hostile genre because, no matter how small the population of asshats is, they sure make the biggest waves.
People acting like assholes is more of an internet thing. That's why I find it hard to find people I like in MMOs.
As for people whining about MMOs in general... I think a lot of people fell in love with the genre and expect it to be further along at this point. MMOs haven't really changed much in years. There is a nice amount of variety right now, but most of these games are mediocre.
Changing the genre is hard because of the nature of the games. They work in unexpected ways, so if you do something differently there are consequences which most of the time aren't pleasant. If you haven't had enough hindsight to see the issues beforehand you may have locked yourself in a dead end in the worst case. Most things correlate with each other, and when you change X, Z Y and C change too. Players will also take advantage of any flaw in the system.
Pair that with the massive budget you need to run an AAA title and there you have it. Nobody wants to be the guinea pig, and you can be sure that if you do something differently and it doesn't work the first time, someone else will take that idea, take note of it's flaws and make it bigger and better. The result being that everyone moves to that game instead of playing the flawed one.
What developer would want to be the martyr?
You may possibly be correct, and I believe what you have expressed is quite a popular opinion on this forum. However, to me, it doesn't properly explain the negativity.
Most games are shit. So what? I've heard it said that 90% of anything is shit, and haven't seen much in my life to disagree with that opinion. For example, 90% of popular music is pretty shit. However, if you look at independent music forums, you won't see people spending all their time moaning about crap music. Instead there will be posts about how someone has found this really cool band and that you really should listen to them. There doesn't seem to be a remotely similar atmosphere.
And I don't buy the argument "lots of people moan in battlegrounds because most MMOs are shit". I'm just wondering if there's some deeper explanation.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
The community for MMOs has changed to a degree with time, not all of it is good. There seems to be a Wizard of Oz mentality that the epunks have lately, they can hide behind a pixel veil and be extraordinarily cruel or mean spirited to anyone without consequence. Short of the ignore, block, or what ever options the game / forum offers there are very few things to do if you don't wish to pursue the conversation further. I do feel that the way the industry has been of late a good portion of the player base is jaded and unsatisfied with what they are playing or wanting out of the game. It could be the chicken and the egg scenario, did MMOs become bad because of the players or did the players become bad because of the MMO? Honestly, I've yet to be able to stick with one answer and run with it.
END OF LINE_
~V
Making music.. is easy. You can achieve the same quality as big names have, with much less effort than in other fields of entertainment. Book industry is another good example of this.
Movies and games, MMO's especially, are not a very good form of entertainment with this in mind. When you make a low budget game that tries to compete with the big dogs, the lack of quality/content is very apparent. The more money you have, the bigger chances you've got to make a Good MMO.
I believe the answer you are looking for is the "John Gabriel Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory"http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/
I'm guessing the conversation you had was a general-chat feature and thus the player trying to help simply gave you the answer (assuming you would thank him, making him look good) but didn't want to invest any further time. When he realized he hadn't helped you, he plays for an audience... According to the theory. (ps. It's /tar fel reaver, not /t fel reaver)
Additionally, the assumption that it is caused by lifestyle factors could never be proven. You may see a relationship, but correlation does not imply causation.
If I had to guess as to the reason MMO players are negative in all aspects however, I'd say the more likely situation is that MMO players often invest more time and/or money in their game of choice than do most gamers. As such the jovial charisma you start a game with, being friendly with everyone and chatting and asking questions is often tarnished by the players who have invested a longer period of time and thus feel more entitled. But that's just the community aspect. Players in PvP use bitching about imbalance as a form of cognitive dissonance. Nobody likes to think that they are bad at doing things they like. So when they lose, it's easier to blame debs, others, etc.
Have faith. There are good people out there. They just don't typically chat in general chat as much because they know how vocal the immature community is.
Someday we'll all look back on the age of computers - and lol.
Good lord. Have you actually looked at any form of entertainment, news or other media in the last ten years aside from mmorpg.com? All people do anymore is whine and complain. Whether it's some nutjob screaming how [insert name here] is trying to control their mind through their tv/radio and is the Anti-Christ, some manipulative vermin (ie; 99.89% of all politicians) complaining how X is going to destroy our country/way of life/children for their own ends, to morons who complain because something didn't go EXACTLY as they wanted it to, that's all everyone seems to do anymore is bitch and moan.
Heck, gamers are actually mild. How many gamer-related lawsuits can you recall over the last decade? (No, Jack Thompson doesn't count) People sue because their kid got a B in school and physicaly attack people over children's sports. Part of the problem is simply conditioning. The media has for years run with a basic equation: controversy = cash. I'll give you one perfect example. How many of you have heard of the Westboro Baptist Church? A group of 50 or 60 people, many related by blood or marriage, yet they routinely get widespread national media coverage because they are controversial and are expert complainers.
Yes, folks complain on these boards. But they also logically discuss the pros and cons of games and related topics. They also compliment and support games they enjoy. Go look at a sub-forum like the ones for Asheron's Call. That game is over ten years old, but there are still folks that talk about what they like about the game and when folks ask "should I try it?" They usually get honest feedback and even encouragement to try it.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
~Omar Khayyam
They get routine widespread national media coverage because they are insane. Picketing Dio's funeral and picketing that soldiers funeral saying god hates fags. Yeah I agree, the gaming community is tame compared to 99% of other forms of entertainment.
OP, if you really think MMO players are the only ones that complain alot, you must be completely oblivious to the real world.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Well actually no, I don't think they're the only ones who complain, since I've spent a fair amount of time on politics sites before, and those guys are much better at it. But you'd expect such things on a politics forum. People go there to argue, often because they disagree with the status quo. You wouldn't necessarily expect such things elsewhere.
However in my experience MMO players do tend to moan far more than members of the general public, and often with very little provocation. They even moan more than other similar social groups. For example, if i visit a site for tabletop RPGs, the amount of complaining and the number of negative threads are far far lower than on a site such as this, and even those threads that are in some way critical are normally along the lines of "I like X but Y is bad" rather than the sort of complete negativity that we sometimes see here.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Most MMORPG gamers started to moan because they realized what kind of crap they start getting over the last years for not moaning. By moaning at least you #1 help bad games die quick so developers try harder next time, #2 help rest of the babyboomers see what a real good game is so they help rest of the community by not spending their parents $ on anything that comes out.
We've only got one quality MMORPG for the last 6 years and that was WOW until recently. Blizzard made players repeat one instance "ICC" for a year. Thats the WOW killer right there and of course the pvp season that lasts for god knows how many months.
Work, school, social life, etc. People complain alot anywhere you go if you just listen and observe it.
People will b*tch and moan for two reasons.
1) They actually do give two s**ts about what's going on and expressing their point(s) so that things don't get any worse.
2) Things are already totally s**t, so it's time to unload! Because staying quiet about it, well, you might as well be a consenting lemming.
Whether someone complains in a nice and well thought out manner, or a curse word filled rant, it all still falls under a "B**tch and Moan Session"
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Sorry OP, but your way off base. Gamers as a group tend to complain less then other social/interest groups. 1. It is just a hobby. If they get too upset, they simply find another hobby. 2. Gamers tend to be looked down upon currently in society and as such don't want to draw attention to themselves. Tho the situation has improved since Jack Thompson got the legal banhammer dropped on him, gaming is still viewed by many as the "great corrupter" of youth today. In reality it's merely the latest in a long line of phenomena that some people point at as the enemy. Look up Dr. Fredric Wertham, and see how easily you could substitute "video games" for his bugaboo.
One last point. If it seems like there's a lot of complaining on MMORPG.com, that's partly because it's a "safe" place to do so. One routinely sees threads here that are regularly locked and/or deleted on a game's official forums. Not because they are "bad", but simply because game companies try (sometimes ham-fistedly) to control the impression one gets viewing their forums. Using it as marketing rather then an actual community. That's a good thing about this community, a place where folks can talk about how they really feel about their games, both pro and con.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
~Omar Khayyam
Why does everybody complain, complains the guy.
Easy. Because you dont post if you're happy.
Its in human nature to complain.
Fine, we'll compromise. I'll get my way & you'll find a way to be okay with that.
I wouldn't call it moaning.. More like showing concern over a weakening MMO community... We used to be proud to show our support for up and coming MMO game designers but have been since tricked and basically beat down by corporate folleys that were designed for one thing and one thing only, and thats taking our hard earned money..
Its an easy way to lose trust.. And trust is what alot of gamers lack for these companies these days..
So moan..
Why do people constantly stereotype like this? It has nothing to do with "MMO players" but human nature and not everyone is the same, I for one rarely ever moan about anything; this rant excluded of course :P, no idea why I even bothered replying here just bored I guess lol.
Like others have said, its an internet thing and a cultural thing.
The majority of people in the developed world live a reasonably comfortable life so moaning about what are really trivial things becomes the norm.
Forums like this are full of moaners. The official WoW forums are full of moaners. For every forum moaner there are probably 50 people not moaning on the forum and happy playing the game.
In the past when you moaned about something and the internet wasnt there you maybe told one friend and then let it go. Nowadays instead of telling someone people post it on the internet, chances are a day later they couldnt care less about it any more but once its posted on a forum and people discuss it, it rages on.
All media is the same now though its not just games forums, just read the forums on IMDB.com just full of crazies and film snobs waiting to put down anyone and say that X film is not as great as X film from the past and that nothing good exists now.
Its basically the same as games but with much more celebrity worship and sniping.
not because they are having a lot of sex i can tell you that right now
You really think so? When you are at work do people praise all the wonderful things about it or do they complain about what an idiot the boss/co-workers/company is? (see Dilbert). When talking about sports, is the chatter more about how great some player/team/referee is or how someone screwed up?
Doesn't matter what the subject, doesn't matter what the venue, people enjoy bitching about life far more than they do singing its praises. Its just basic human nature.
Internet forums, regardless of their subject matter are always going to be more about what people are upset about than what they enjoy. More importantly, internet forums are always about PVP, even when the subject isn't gaming. People try to "win" the debate (which is usually unwinnable of course) and failing in that, they'll just try and piss you off.
Its human nature, we enjoy train wrecks far more than walks in the park, so we focus on the darker side of life and this transfers through to all forms of communication, not just gaming forums.
And to your specific example, any time you ask a question in a game, you'll always find some asshat that seems to need to call you a Noob instead of trying to be helpful, which is especially true here as well.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
We don't trust companies any more. They used our trust to milk money from us with cheap overhyped crappy or generally poorly designed and/or executed games. So we don't trust them anymore, and if they want to win back our trust they have to withstand a rain of fire and show us they care about us again.
That or... in the grim darkness of the forums, there is only war.