The Old Republic = WOW with Lightsabers

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Oscillate

... and these idiotic post never cease. The only likeness that I am seeing right off the bat, is Blizzard's decision to steal the questing system of SWTOR.

?? I haven't read that anywhere. Do you have a link or source of that info?

daniel!!!

wow with lightsabers would be such a vast improvement to world of warcraft lol

Ikisis

Originally posted by Ramonski7

Seems like another bridgelurker came out for a stroll, must have ran out of pond scum mead and billy goat nuggets.........get back un-dur durrr!

IDK but your signature makes me  hate you...

Gylfi

Originally posted by maskedweasel

The WoW model is not the WoW model,  its the RPG MODEL.  

No it's not!!! it's not it's not it's not it's not!!! Finally we hit a hot spot. That's the WHOLE point with this topic, with EVERY topic that talks about standards and clones. It's not the rpg model, its completely FALSE!!! Hoorray!

Look at games like Masseffect,  Borderlands,  NWN 1 - 2,  the Elder Scroll Series.   You walk around, pick up quests, complete them, and receive a reward.  A big exclamation mark over someones head or not, doesn't change this fact.  So you pick up quests from a terminal instead of walking over to talk to someone just standing around,  wheres the big difference?   So you want them to mask it instead with different names, or create a gimmick to appeal to those that don't like yellow exclamation marks?  Call them things like "missions" or "events".  

It happens in ENTIRELY different ways!!! THE ONLY single INSIGNIFICANT fact that NPC's do NOT have their stupid exclamation marks over their heads changes EVERYTHING in ways you can't even imagine. It changes mindsets, it changes the way you play. It means that you don't SEEK quests, you CLICK on a character that will only JUST SAY SOMETHING that may or may NOT be written in THE JOURNAL as a task, and (not in ME, this one) the journal might even NOT indicate a quest but just a REFLECTION, even tho the reflection might give FAINT clues about a task FAR AWAY, or a puzzle someplace to be solved. I repeat, exclamation marks MEANS that the player first of all seeks them, THEN he knows that when a conversation opens it's because of a quest, and not a simple conversation about things. It affects EVERYTHING.

Yes that means that this form of questing has been used time and again, but it didn't start at MMOs and it hasn't stopped there.  You say that everything is the same with these "clones"  but proportionally the same could easily be said about all games of similar genres.  All racing games seem to have the same components.  All Basketball games seem to work the same way.  I've never seen a 3D fighter change the style in which you move, attack, and play much either.  I guess Tekken3 must have been a virtua fighter clone.

heh i agree on that, many 3d fighting games are clones, you don't see me playing them do you? I hate consoles, i only play simulations, wargames and puzzle adventures(Machinarium?)

But even in the case of 3d beat'em ups, they're copied when they come from the same software house... Capcom doesn't copy the tekken way, do they? Even the houses that reuse Street Fighter's way, still do it their own way.

I'm not sure you got yet the difference between generic principles, generic standards and EXACT same mechanics.

The point I'm making is that, you will have quests in TOR.  No you won't have quest givers with exclamation points everywhere, instead you have flashpoints,  ones in which you walk into and it starts up a conversation with the NPC inside.  You make your choices from that point forward, laying out what needs to be done and giving you options to choose to respond.  In many ways this is not just a cosmetic difference in the way missions are being handled.  

Nice, so there's flashpoints instead of exclamation marks. We're saved. LOL

But seriously, yes, the conversation choices are GOOD already, but there has to be more. There has to be choices that REALLY affect the way you play. We need puzzles that offer challenges... if there's puzzles, you WILL be forced to follow the story or you will NOT move forward in the adventure. But if it's just long boring conversations to follow, then nothing will change, it will still be errand boys' quests.

On a side note,  if you are "enduring" the story, then you aren't playing to enjoy the story.  The story of your character will be nothing but pure enjoyment for me.  I could just as easily run through the world and do group quests all day if I wanted to in TOR,  but I'm playing this game to be immersed.. not do "endure" the "painful" quests to get to the purported end game like all the games before.   BioWare is giving us content WORTH taking your time to play through, with decisions that effect how the world views me, and how my skills progress.  I'm not playing just to get through it,    IF I'm playing it,  its for no other reason then for my enjoyment.

Yes you might do it and enjoy but will everyone? WIll they actually spend minutes in reading everything, even tho it's not really needed to go on? If the "objective" appears in the typical right-side of the screen, summing up the objective, do you REALLY see the average joe "reading" thru stories, or will they rush to fight and have real fun?

Wheres the challenge you ask?  Well shouldn't that be in the actual gameplay and not in the story telling.  Nowhere does it say a quest that starts by simply telling you where to go won't have objectives that will require challenge, time, or skill.  For players that don't get that from PvE, you have plenty of PvP to deal with.   Just because someone points out your start and end point on a map doesn't mean the road getting there won't be challenging or adventurous.  

That's completely false, challenge can be in the story itself because it's supposed to be the "pillar of story" Bioware sported, Bioware sported this pillar as being part of the gameplay, not just some TVSHOW, it can be in the plot instead, as i wrote in the blog. But let's see this big challenge in the gameplay. Where is it? In fiddling with skill points? In choosing the right combos of attack? Good going!

Please don't wonder "how" can the story be in the gameplay, in the challenge. It's all in my blog.

Ill just say that videogames are not just shooting and jumping, and videogames got lucky in welcoming the merciful help of movies, with their "stories"... story BENDS at interaction and becomes something entirely unique that owes nothing to movies and tvshows. So when you "play" a story you don't just hear and read and watch it, it's not a movie with some PEW PEW,  you "interact" with it in unique ways.

Finally we're getting some place.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Gylfi

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Look at games like Masseffect,  Borderlands,  NWN 1 - 2,  the Elder Scroll Series.   You walk around, pick up quests, complete them, and receive a reward.  A big exclamation mark over someones head or not, doesn't change this fact.  So you pick up quests from a terminal instead of walking over to talk to someone just standing around,  wheres the big difference?   So you want them to mask it instead with different names, or create a gimmick to appeal to those that don't like yellow exclamation marks?  Call them things like "missions" or "events".  

It happens in ENTIRELY different ways!!! THE ONLY single INSIGNIFICANT fact that NPC's do NOT have their stupid exclamation marks over their heads changes EVERYTHING in ways you can't even imagine. It changes mindsets, it changes the way you play. It means that you don't SEEK quests, you CLICK on a character that will only JUST SAY SOMETHING that may or may NOT be written in THE JOURNAL as a task, and (not in ME, this one) the journal might even NOT indicate a quest but just a REFLECTION, even tho the reflection might give FAINT clues about a task FAR AWAY, or a puzzle someplace to be solved. I repeat, exclamation marks MEANS that the player first of all seeks them, THEN he knows that when a conversation opens it's because of a quest, and not a simple conversation about things. It affects EVERYTHING.

I think this is a good point: I often think how it came to be that playing in EQ felt so much different than other MMO's. Of course, you have the '1st love' effect, the impact that it has on you when you start playing MMO's for the 1st time. But it's more than that, how the need for grouping brought a community more together and let people act less as assholes in groups because you knew that you might need eachother next time too. Or the feel of exploration that you had without folowing a chain of exclamation quest marks that put you on a tour on rails through the world. Such little differences, grouping being more effective or no quests that you can seek out just by clicking exlamation marks, but a world of effect.

 

Regarding SW TOR: people step so easily over the storytelling that makes questing different or the Companions, but as you say some little differences can affect everything, your whole gameplay experience and feel of immersion in the world.

If it'll actually happen like that, I guess we'll have to see in the open betas. But it sure has the potential for it.

maskedweasel

Originally posted by Gylfi

Originally posted by maskedweasel

The WoW model is not the WoW model,  its the RPG MODEL.  

No it's not!!! it's not it's not it's not it's not!!! Finally we hit a hot spot. That's the WHOLE point with this topic, with EVERY topic that talks about standards and clones. It's not the rpg model, its completely FALSE!!! Hoorray!

Look at games like Masseffect,  Borderlands,  NWN 1 - 2,  the Elder Scroll Series.   You walk around, pick up quests, complete them, and receive a reward.  A big exclamation mark over someones head or not, doesn't change this fact.  So you pick up quests from a terminal instead of walking over to talk to someone just standing around,  wheres the big difference?   So you want them to mask it instead with different names, or create a gimmick to appeal to those that don't like yellow exclamation marks?  Call them things like "missions" or "events".  

It happens in ENTIRELY different ways!!! THE ONLY single INSIGNIFICANT fact that NPC's do NOT have their stupid exclamation marks over their heads changes EVERYTHING in ways you can't even imagine. It changes mindsets, it changes the way you play. It means that you don't SEEK quests, you CLICK on a character that will only JUST SAY SOMETHING that may or may NOT be written in THE JOURNAL as a task, and (not in ME, this one) the journal might even NOT indicate a quest but just a REFLECTION, even tho the reflection might give FAINT clues about a task FAR AWAY, or a puzzle someplace to be solved. I repeat, exclamation marks MEANS that the player first of all seeks them, THEN he knows that when a conversation opens it's because of a quest, and not a simple conversation about things. It affects EVERYTHING.

Yes that means that this form of questing has been used time and again, but it didn't start at MMOs and it hasn't stopped there.  You say that everything is the same with these "clones"  but proportionally the same could easily be said about all games of similar genres.  All racing games seem to have the same components.  All Basketball games seem to work the same way.  I've never seen a 3D fighter change the style in which you move, attack, and play much either.  I guess Tekken3 must have been a virtua fighter clone.

heh i agree on that, many 3d fighting games are clones, you don't see me playing them do you? I hate consoles, i only play simulations, wargames and puzzle adventures(Machinarium?)

But even in the case of 3d beat'em ups, they're copied when they come from the same software house... Capcom doesn't copy the tekken way, do they? Even the houses that reuse Street Fighter's way, still do it their own way.

I'm not sure you got yet the difference between generic principles, generic standards and EXACT same mechanics.

The point I'm making is that, you will have quests in TOR.  No you won't have quest givers with exclamation points everywhere, instead you have flashpoints,  ones in which you walk into and it starts up a conversation with the NPC inside.  You make your choices from that point forward, laying out what needs to be done and giving you options to choose to respond.  In many ways this is not just a cosmetic difference in the way missions are being handled.  

Nice, so there's flashpoints instead of exclamation marks. We're saved. LOL

But seriously, yes, the conversation choices are GOOD already, but there has to be more. There has to be choices that REALLY affect the way you play. We need puzzles that offer challenges... if there's puzzles, you WILL be forced to follow the story or you will NOT move forward in the adventure. But if it's just long boring conversations to follow, then nothing will change, it will still be errand boys' quests.

On a side note,  if you are "enduring" the story, then you aren't playing to enjoy the story.  The story of your character will be nothing but pure enjoyment for me.  I could just as easily run through the world and do group quests all day if I wanted to in TOR,  but I'm playing this game to be immersed.. not do "endure" the "painful" quests to get to the purported end game like all the games before.   BioWare is giving us content WORTH taking your time to play through, with decisions that effect how the world views me, and how my skills progress.  I'm not playing just to get through it,    IF I'm playing it,  its for no other reason then for my enjoyment.

Yes you might do it and enjoy but will everyone? WIll they actually spend minutes in reading everything, even tho it's not really needed to go on? If the "objective" appears in the typical right-side of the screen, summing up the objective, do you REALLY see the average joe "reading" thru stories, or will they rush to fight and have real fun?

Wheres the challenge you ask?  Well shouldn't that be in the actual gameplay and not in the story telling.  Nowhere does it say a quest that starts by simply telling you where to go won't have objectives that will require challenge, time, or skill.  For players that don't get that from PvE, you have plenty of PvP to deal with.   Just because someone points out your start and end point on a map doesn't mean the road getting there won't be challenging or adventurous.  

That's completely false, challenge can be in the story itself because it's supposed to be the "pillar of story" Bioware sported, Bioware sported this pillar as being part of the gameplay, not just some TVSHOW, it can be in the plot instead, as i wrote in the blog. But let's see this big challenge in the gameplay. Where is it? In fiddling with skill points? In choosing the right combos of attack? Good going!

Please don't wonder "how" can the story be in the gameplay, in the challenge. It's all in my blog.

Ill just say that videogames are not just shooting and jumping, and videogames got lucky in welcoming the merciful help of movies, with their "stories"... story BENDS at interaction and becomes something entirely unique that owes nothing to movies and tvshows. So when you "play" a story you don't just hear and read and watch it, it's not a movie with some PEW PEW,  you "interact" with it in unique ways.

Finally we're getting some place.

 

What you are talking about as far as quests are concerned are visual semantics.  One person might use an exclamation point, another might not,  another might have map markers, another might use echo location.  Visually they are different, mechanically they are similar.  Whether I'm talking to a guy with a red question mark or being ushered into a conversation when I enter a flashpoint the end result doesn't change.

 

The question marks and exclamation points are there for one one very good reason -- accessibility.  Is it the only way? No.  Is it the most well known way? Yes.   Just about every current game has the advantage of standardizing gameplay mechanics to ease the transitional phase from one game to the next, whether its cross platform, cross company, or maybe even cross genre.  The exact -- EXACT same mechanics can be seen in many different games.  Anyone who's played Modern Warfare 2 (developed by infinity ward published by activision)  and Borderlands (developed by gearbox and published by 2K games) would know the control scheme is EXACTLY the same.   Anyone who's played King of Fighters (SNK)  and Street Fighter (Capcom) would know that back-down-forward punch is a useful tool to do special moves.

 

These mechanics are standards to make games accessible and easy to learn.  In an MMO where you live with a hotbar and a progressive content system that relies on questing, the last thing companies want to deal with are players that can't find the next quest chain.

 

Again, are there other ways to do it?  Sure there are.  Would it really be a genre changer?  No.  

 

Quest lines and exclamation points are GENERIC GUIDELINES in RPGs.  You see them in Borderlands.  You see them in NWN.  They are not ONLY prevalent in MMOs.  The structure is the same.  Play through Borderlands and you go to the quest giver with the exclamation point, you accept the quest, you do it, and get a reward, rinse repeat.  Its the same.  No change.

 

As far as people not enjoying the missions in TOR, wanting to run through quests, and so on.  Thats their prerogative. That is not the way this game is setup though.  They can skip the voice overs and see the dialogue, but in the end they still have to make a choice.  If they choose to make that choice without first hearing the story behind their choice, thats up to them.

 

More importantly though,  this game is directed at the BioWare and Star Wars fan.  If you are playing a BioWare game and not interested in the story aspects, I have no sympathy for you.  A BioWare game, thats been touted as having an excellent well thought out and intricate story from day 1 most probably wouldn't be enjoyed by someone who doesn't like BioWare games or story in the first place,  and thats not really who this game is set to appeal to in the first place.

 

In reply to "challenge can be in the story"  you are right,  and there is challenge in this story as in this story, your choices dictate your challenges.  In most BioWare games this is the truth,  but this has nothing to do with a themepark game specifically or a WoW clone.   

Gylfi

Originally posted by cyphers

that's not true at all! Is planetside like WoW? Is Daoc like WoW? Is anarchy online like WoW?

Please. By the definitions you and other 'WoW clone' callers are using, WoW, DaoC, AC and some others were clearly EQ clones, the similarities were far larger than the differences.

I completely disagree. Daoc, which is the only MMO i played of those you cited, is entirely different except the combat system. While today the combat system is the only thing that changes hehehe, see AoC.

Sure, some single player RPG's share principles, but almost no one replicates the EXACT same gameplay, unlike AoC, Warhammer online, Aion, Lotro. And yeah some games are Diablo clones, everyone knows that. But do you play them for months? No, they're over in a couple of weeks, so it doesn't bother as it does in MMO's.

Here you hit the point at the right spot. It's the excessive amount of playtime invested in MMO's compared to other gaming genres that make gamers getting bored with some of the conventions and gameplay aspects that defined the MMO genre.

It doesn't mean that many games in other gaming genres aren't clones from eachother when you look at the similarities, it's just that gamers play it too shortly to really care.

It's the same reason why boredom and getting fed up with some gameplay mechanics run a far higher risk in the genre of MMO's than in other gaming genres: usually other games is being played for 30-80 hrs, but if the same games would be played for hundreds to thousands of hours like it happens with MMO's, a far larger group of gamers would get fed up with some of the defining gameplay mechanics of that genre too and crave for something new or different.

Yup, and you can't blame them for being angry, either. Besides, in a single player game you're too busy following a story. In an MMO story, unless you're forced to follow it, will never be important... unlike SP, in an MMO there's no end, so all you do is reach level-cap. That's why the WAY by which you do this MATTERS more.

Everyone wants new and different things in other MMO's. But there's a reason why Blizzard copied a lot of gameplay elements from former MMO's to the point of being a 'EQ clone'. It's the same reason why they kept a lot the same for SC2 (maybe even too much). Because it's about gameplay elements that are liked and accepted as working.

First of all they're not SO liked since those games are failures... why should they play a MMO that "tries" to be like WoW, if they have the original one? It's stupid marketing choices that end up failing because MOST of us need NEW games.

The problem wasn't that they tried to be like WoW, but they didn't have the elements that made WoW successful, which was polish, accessibility, and enough fun and diverse gameplay content (microgratifications included) that made you want to play for months after months. Most players SAY that they want NEW, different games, but what they REALLY want is new MMO's that are a mix of old and new, having enough new elements that their craving for something new is satisfied but also lots of stuff that they recognize and are familiar with from other MMO's they played.

This is too personal, people are varied, can't generalize like this. Let's not waste our time guessing what people want, it's utopical.

If that wasn't the case, that they want some new stuff but also lots of old familiar gameplay, then a far larger group of MMO gamers would be trying out and give the other MMO's that are around a chance, there are enough around that are very different from WoW or its format, sandbox MMO, others, you name it. Examples: FE, GW, City of Heroes, EVE, Darkfall, Mortal Online, APB, D&D Online, Ryzom, Chronicles of Spellborn.

same as above, you can't guess anything... a lot of people need games that don't tell em what to do and where to go, like all the themepark genre does, that's the people i see in Perpetuum.

Enough different and still enjoyable MMO's to pick from and give a chance. Yet most MMO gamers dabble only a little into other MMO's and then run quickly back to their old MMO that they said they'd gotten bored from, even if those other MMO's offered different gameplay.

Methinks they go back to WoW only after they played the next clone.... maybe they expected something really new but it was more of the same, who knows.

It's not only for MMO's, the same approach of copying or imitating successful gameplay mechanics is being used for other gaming genres as shooters, RTS (base building, tech trees), RPG's (D&D mechanics), you name it.

RTS mechanics aren't used THAT much, see Relic. Relic decided to DITCH the "base building scheme" for a more tactical approach. They INVENTED everything from scratch, they "invented" the concept of reinforcements, they even put ethical choices in their game(chaos rising) for god sake.

True. The last 3 years all kinds of different RTS games. Before that, the RTS genre was dominated by the format that the Command & Conquer series, SC and WC2 adhered to for 10 years, up to the point that many people complained that so little had changed in the RTS genre.

Yep, ever since the good old Dune 2. It didn't take long tho, to feel the genre had to change. Homeworld came soon and changed things completely by eliminating structures! And those were primitive times, now everything's faster, in 1 year there's like 5 revolutions in society, everything happens in way shorter time. And WoW came in 2004, it's been 6 years that in the 90's would equal to 18 years

I'd say that the MMO genre is now where the RTS genre was 3-4 years ago. I think a number of the new MMO's will breathe some fresh air into the genre.

that's a good wish

Every RTS shares few principles but STILL dares to propose the designers' IDEA of them. In MMO's this doesn't happen anymore, they don't just share basic principles, they repeat the EXACT same gameplay, in EVERY single point.

Not true, and a gross overstatement that you make. Each MMO brings its own different gameplay mechanics to the table, besides their adoption of the gameplay mechanics that have ruled the genre for the last 10 years.

Well please list these differences. You can already write off Warhammer's PvP, being suffocated by the quests system. Infact Warhammer quickly became PvE centric.

My statement refers mainly to quests, because everyone knows 90% of the /played is quests. There's no denying this, good sir. And there WOULD be so many ways to design quests, i can't even count em. I can come up with a dozen ways to conceive quests in a hour. But all the WoW clones provide quests in the EXACT way WoW does.

 

My own opinion, I think that the MMO genre from 2005-2010 has shown far less innovation and differentiation than it showed in the period 2000-2004. Looking at some of  the new MMO's, it looks like we're slowly crawling out of these Dark Ages of MMO and that MMO's start to hit the right notes again in their evolution and progress of the genre.

Very true.(and ofc i fixed that little typo)

SW TOR of those new upcoming MMO's looks to follow close to the themepark format. Still, I won't call it a 'WoW clone' for the following reasons:

- 'WoW clone' is used by people when they in fact look down negatively upon themepark MMO's, and I have no problems with the themepark genre. It has been successful for a reason, and that is because people had/have a good time in themepark MMO's for a long time.

Oh that's legitimate... but since we infact don't want themepark clones, why can't we protest a little?

- SW TOR invests heavily in story immersion in several ways, and this makes it very differently from the simple questing mechanics seen in WoW or other MMO's. If done right, this would make the experience more like a ME2 or DA:O, where you don't really care about leveling or questing but more about wanting to see the story progress. In contrast to the questgrinding that you often do in other MMO's.

It's hard. If the only difference is blabla, then it wont change a thing from WoW stories, Warhammer stories, AoC stories. Story in TOR have to have an ACTIVE part in the gameplay.

- SW TOR has enough differences that it brings to the table that separates it from the regular MMO themepark (or 'WoW clone') flavor: scifi theme no orcs and elves and mages, space combat, space exploration, spaceship as player housing and base of command a la ME2, Companions, a lot of vast planets not just 1 world, to name a few important ones.

I think they're cosmetic changes. It's like saying STO is not a clone because you use phasers and ships. Doesn't make sense, do it in a ship, in a car, in space, on top of a flying pig....

you're still clicking exclamation marks and accept/decline buttons, running towards the X(the spot for farming), kill rats, then taking them back. It won't change anything.

- nobody has played the game yet in the way it'll be released, also a lot of features haven't been revealed information yet. So how different the game will end up to be, we don't know yet.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Gylfi

Originally posted by cyphers

Not true, and a gross overstatement that you make. Each MMO brings its own different gameplay mechanics to the table, besides their adoption of the gameplay mechanics that have ruled the genre for the last 10 years.

Well please list these differences. You can already write off Warhammer's PvP, being suffocated by the quests system. Infact Warhammer quickly became PvE centric.

As reply, please list all the differences that denies AC, DAoC or WoW being EQ clones. As said before, they've more similarities than differences.

Regarding differences between WoW and other themepark MMO's, some examples:

AoC: very different combat gameplay mechanics, non-cartoony graphics style (a feat often quoted for 'WoW clones', that they have the same toony look as WoW), partially voiced quests, sieges, guildcities and guildleveling, AA system, different dungeon mechanics in RotGS.

Aion: integrated gliding and flying mechanics, sieges, flying based combat and PvP area, rifts mechanics, enhanced crafting, combat gameplay mechanics.

CO: haven't played it that long, but from what I saw, no classes, very flexible customisation in skills and looks, own graphic style, public quest, different combat mechanics

My statement refers mainly to quests, because everyone knows 90% of the /played is quests. There's no denying this, good sir. And there WOULD be so many ways to design quests, i can't even count em. I can come up with a dozen ways to conceive quests in a hour. But all the WoW clones provide quests in the EXACT way WoW does.

There you go: that's the whole problem, you base your whole argumentation on solely the quest part when you compare MMO's with WoW and call them 'WoW clones', and totally ignore all other gameplay mechanics. Sorry, but that's a very bad way of comparing MMO's.

But looking purely at quests, then I'm gonna say the following: most MMO's have done it the same since EQ. The fact that WoW put a window around your quest text and exclamation marks on NPC's is cosmetic as Maskedweasel also pointed out, the basic quest mechanism is still the same. If that's your basic criterium for difference then your argumentation fails.

The fact that you can think of a dozen ways to conceive quests doesn't change the fact that quest mechanics hasn't changed much the last 10 years for MMO's as well as RPG's.

 

By your own criteria, it also means that SW TOR and GW2 are already no 'WoW clone' since each use different mechanics for their quests.

Gylfi

---

Originally posted by maskedweasel

What you are talking about as far as quests are concerned are visual semantics.  One person might use an exclamation point, another might not,  another might have map markers, another might use echo location.  Visually they are different, mechanically they are similar.  Whether I'm talking to a guy with a red question mark or being ushered into a conversation when I enter a flashpoint the end result doesn't change.

---

Sure, we mentioned an element that doesn't make much difference, it's insignificant.
What if Quests still exist, but there's only X's on the map? What if the character accesses a huge screen that has x's and other hot spots that indicate dynamically what's happening, also by type of situation, say siege, assault, patrol, spawning of creatures, escort needed, and so on. No NPC's, just dynamic tasks. Is that still semantics? I don't think so. What about Anarchy Online? Every city had this terminal, the same one. Players weren't forced to get quests because the last NPC of a town sends him to the next one, the player's need to explore would be completely PvP-centric. See? See how quests change the way you play the whole MMO? Why otherwise Warhammer PvP didn't work? Because it was PRISONER of the quests system!!!

---

The question marks and exclamation points are there for one one very good reason -- accessibility.  Is it the only way? No.  Is it the most well known way? Yes.   Just about every current game has the advantage of standardizing gameplay mechanics to ease the transitional phase from one game to the next, whether its cross platform, cross company, or maybe even cross genre.  The exact -- EXACT same mechanics can be seen in many different games.  Anyone who's played Modern Warfare 2 (developed by infinity ward published by activision)  and Borderlands (developed by gearbox and published by 2K games) would know the control scheme is EXACTLY the same.   Anyone who's played King of Fighters (SNK)  and Street Fighter (Capcom) would know that back-down-forward punch is a useful tool to do special moves.

---

Accessibility this way sounds like dumbing down.
But players don't like being called dumb. They DESIRE to learn new things, not just easing the transition. That's a terrible thing to say.

---

These mechanics are standards to make games accessible and easy to learn.  In an MMO where you live with a hotbar and a progressive content system that relies on questing, the last thing companies want to deal with are players that can't find the next quest chain.

---

Nice. So companies instead take players for numbnuts. Good going. How bout a bit of faith in the intelligence? Players DO need challenges, DO enjoy learning, not just knowing and re-knowing. This is the exact reason why the whole genre is direly stagnating and the least creative genre in the beautiful scenario of PC-gaming.

---

Again, are there other ways to do it?  Sure there are.  Would it really be a genre changer?  No.  

---

Oh here's another example, then. How 'bout towns are completely manageable by players? Players administrate every part of it, defenses, medicines, NPC troopers, food... they place on a bullettin board all the trading goods needed. Other players need to read these needs and go find them... be it lumberjacking, be it traders establishing resource exchange with other towns, be recruiting by, i dunno, players dressed as priests that have to do great speeches to NPC commoners in villages. These are still quests, no? The difference is that they ARE NOT PRE-COOKED! NO WRITER ever wrote them, the players themselves assign them to each other. Does it make a difference? O'course!!!

[quote]
Quest lines and exclamation points are GENERIC GUIDELINES in RPGs.  You see them in Borderlands.  You see them in NWN.  They are not ONLY prevalent in MMOs.  The structure is the same.  Play through Borderlands and you go to the quest giver with the exclamation point, you accept the quest, you do it, and get a reward, rinse repeat.  Its the same.  No change.[quote]

oh yes, i see all of this in today's clones, alright
It's no surprise that WoW expanded its influence even in Non-mmo's like Borderlands... or Hellgate!

---

As far as people not enjoying the missions in TOR, wanting to run through quests, and so on.  Thats their prerogative. That is not the way this game is setup though.  They can skip the voice overs and see the dialogue, but in the end they still have to make a choice.  If they choose to make that choice without first hearing the story behind their choice, thats up to them.

---

then the game will be another WoW. Players have to hear the story and then make a choice, because if they do the wrong one, they'll be hunted and hated by every race in the galaxy.

I can well see you didn't read my blog post yet :P

ashfallen

Took a while, but it appears we have productive debate again.  And another troll thread is hyjacked by objective opinion.

Gylfi

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by Gylfi

Originally posted by cyphers

Not true, and a gross overstatement that you make. Each MMO brings its own different gameplay mechanics to the table, besides their adoption of the gameplay mechanics that have ruled the genre for the last 10 years.

Well please list these differences. You can already write off Warhammer's PvP, being suffocated by the quests system. Infact Warhammer quickly became PvE centric.

As reply, please list all the differences that denies AC, DAoC or WoW being EQ clones. As said before, they've more similarities than differences.

I've never played AC, only DAOC:

I won't cite futile things like 3 factions instead of 2, they don't affect the gameplay in anyway, that's how solid my argumentations are. When i analyze gameplay elements, i only think on how it affects the player's mindset. The great difference between WoW and Daoc is really obvious, there are no quests(there are, but very few), nobody would level up with quests... i don't know if game changed now, if they added more quests(because of WoW, obviously), but during the golden age of DAOC, there were just groups of enemies that are more or less suited for the player's level. The designer carefully set up camps of mob thought out for the character's levels. You would go there, group with ppl, farm together. It's competely different from WoW's mentality of quest taking, and it's a fascinating concept that got lost when WoW came, with its accessibility dumbing down

Regarding differences between WoW and other themepark MMO's, some examples:

AoC: very different combat gameplay mechanics, non-cartoony graphics style (a feat often quoted for 'WoW clones', that they have the same toony look as WoW), partially voiced quests, sieges, guildcities and guildleveling, AA system, different dungeon mechanics in RotGS.

Damn right... as i said, in the golden age of MMO's the only thing that remained the same was combat, now the only thing that changes is combat... well fricking done. And c'mon,

partially voiced ?

Graphic style ?

guild levelling, sieges, dungeon mechanics... secondary stuff compared to the immense importance of levelling, which takes up 90% of the playtime... stuff that should be the main element of AoC and because of quests they feel like limbs attached at the last moment upon a WoW abomination. You CANNOT possibly deny that those elements you cited feel completely secondary, compared to the "awesome stories of the quests". Quests are like vampires, they suck up the important content that is lore, exploration, money making, gear, everything... nothing's left, just the unimportant parts. Unsurprisingly, the only original parts of a MMO are in those futile parts... they don't deal with lore, they don't deal with levelling, with gear, with exploration. And PvP? It's nothing because there are no serious conquest pvp mechanics, they were too busy writing the last quest line.

Aion: integrated gliding and flying mechanics, sieges, flying based combat and PvP area, rifts mechanics, enhanced crafting, combat gameplay mechanics.

Lol i've heard Aion being called WoW with wings.

CO: haven't played it that long, but from what I saw, no classes, very flexible customisation in skills and looks, own graphic style, public quest, different combat mechanics

My statement refers mainly to quests, because everyone knows 90% of the /played is quests. There's no denying this, good sir. And there WOULD be so many ways to design quests, i can't even count em. I can come up with a dozen ways to conceive quests in a hour. But all the WoW clones provide quests in the EXACT way WoW does.

There you go: that's the whole problem, you base your whole argumentation on solely the quest part when you compare MMO's with WoW and call them 'WoW clones', and totally ignore all other gameplay mechanics. Sorry, but that's a very bad way of comparing MMO's.

But looking purely at quests, then I'm gonna say the following: most MMO's have done it the same since EQ. The fact that WoW put a window around your quest text and exclamation marks on NPC's is cosmetic as Maskedweasel also pointed out, the basic quest mechanism is still the same. If that's your basic criterium for difference then your argumentation fails.

The fact that you can think of a dozen ways to conceive quests doesn't change the fact that quest mechanics hasn't changed much the last 10 years for MMO's as well as RPG's.

 

By your own criteria, it also means that SW TOR and GW2 are already no 'WoW clone' since each use different mechanics for their quests.

dougmysticey

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Originally posted by Gylfi

Originally posted by maskedweasel

Sorry bud, but what games on your list from WoW down have that you seem to not like is ... CONTENT.   Yup, these games have quests, they have rewards, and they have a focus.  Sandbox games that you think are the end all be all of MMOs,  do not.  They give you a world to splash around in,  and yet,  the only sandbox style MMO that seems to be worth anything currently is EvE which,  after many years managed to get 1/4 of the subscribers most of those "clones" had on launch.

Point is i don't just believe it's "content". It's not just quests, not just rewards, it's quests and rewards done in the EXACT same way as WoW. Those quests and rewards CAN be provided in probably a THOUSAND new ways. But they don't, they just reuse WoW's stigmatized way of "D-click(or R-click) the NPC, a window opens up, little description, little summary, then the rewards, then the accept button, then you go outside, farm a little or push a button(or another NPC), then come back and get riches". THAT is what's wrong with MMO cloning, not that they give the GENERIC concept of quests and rewards but that EACH of the modern MMO's does it EXACTLY like WoW in everyway.

For the rest, well, i disagree, i think Mortal Online is a simulation wit lots of potential. You're just picking up the common voice, you didn'[t bother to actually try those games, im sure

Theme park MMOs run on a content based engine, where you go through and get items and experience through questing rather then grinding, like, oh.... say DarkFall.  You may think going to quest after quest is boring,  but I think after killing the 700th goblin to increase my melee skill 1/1000th of a point is just as boring.

That's not true at all! I don't find "going quest after quest"to be boring, because then i'd be stating the whole RPG genre is boring! That'd be nuts! What i think it's boring is the way WoW does it(see above), which is repeated in the other games in the EXACT same way.

Quests can still be fun if done in a new way. Anarchy Online had a "terminal" in which missions were generated... it was terrible but at least it was different. Quests can appear in many ways, why do you think the WoW way is the ONLY way, why doyou(and many others) confuse the WoW way with the generic meaning of "getting quests". You fail to realize that "exclamation marks and window accept/decline button" is not "archetype", it's the WOW style.

Thankfully TOR will break this mold and actually give a good choice based storyline with more content then you can shake 3 sticks and a ferret at.    Looking at it from the outside some people just don't realize how a well made storyline, or a higher level of polish,  or hell,  just a different flow of gameplay can really change a simple game from being a quest grind, into being something you can't stop playing to find out what happens next.

LEt's pray that it will. And i underlined the ways in which it can in my most recent blog post of gamasutra. They say it's not about collecting rats anymore. But what's the difference? It would still be about a lot of kills that are not counted and a final assassination in the end dressed with a lot of blabla. Big change!

Even if it has a GOOD and deep story, answer me this:

WHERE IS THE CHALLENGE? In "enduring" the story, straining your gentle mind to follow it? I HOPE NOT!!!

 

The WoW model is not the WoW model,  its the RPG MODEL.  Look at games like Masseffect,  Borderlands,  NWN 1 - 2,  the Elder Scroll Series.   You walk around, pick up quests, complete them, and receive a reward.  A big exclamation mark over someones head or not, doesn't change this fact.  So you pick up quests from a terminal instead of walking over to talk to someone just standing around,  wheres the big difference?   So you want them to mask it instead with different names, or create a gimmick to appeal to those that don't like yellow exclamation marks?  Call them things like "missions" or "events".  

 

Yes that means that this form of questing has been used time and again, but it didn't start at MMOs and it hasn't stopped there.  You say that everything is the same with these "clones"  but proportionally the same could easily be said about all games of similar genres.  All racing games seem to have the same components.  All Basketball games seem to work the same way.  I've never seen a 3D fighter change the style in which you move, attack, and play much either.  I guess Tekken3 must have been a virtua fighter clone.

 

The point I'm making is that, you will have quests in TOR.  No you won't have quest givers with exclamation points everywhere, instead you have flashpoints,  ones in which you walk into and it starts up a conversation with the NPC inside.  You make your choices from that point forward, laying out what needs to be done and giving you options to choose to respond.  In many ways this is not just a cosmetic difference in the way missions are being handled.  

 

On a side note,  if you are "enduring" the story, then you aren't playing to enjoy the story.  The story of your character will be nothing but pure enjoyment for me.  I could just as easily run through the world and do group quests all day if I wanted to in TOR,  but I'm playing this game to be immersed.. not do "endure" the "painful" quests to get to the purported end game like all the games before.   BioWare is giving us content WORTH taking your time to play through, with decisions that effect how the world views me, and how my skills progress.  I'm not playing just to get through it,    IF I'm playing it,  its for no other reason then for my enjoyment.

 

Wheres the challenge you ask?  Well shouldn't that be in the actual gameplay and not in the story telling.  Nowhere does it say a quest that starts by simply telling you where to go won't have objectives that will require  time, skill or be challenging .  For players that don't get that from PvE, you have plenty of PvP to deal with.   Just because someone points out your start and end point on a map doesn't mean the road getting there won't be challenging or adventurous.  

 Good response. Personally, I think that anyone who claims a game = WOW Clone is ignorant of the genre and needs to do some real research befor making that bold statement since WOW in itself is not original in regards to play mechanics.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by ashfallen

Took a while, but it appears we have productive debate again.  And another troll thread is hyjacked by objective opinion.

Lol! heh, that's the funniest comment I read this week, cheers

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by dougmysticey

 Good response. Personally, I think that anyone who claims a game = WOW Clone is ignorant of the genre and needs to do some real research befor making that bold statement since WOW in itself is not original in regards to play mechanics.

True. But in 8-9 out 10 cases 'WoW clone' is only being used to talk negatively about themepark MMO's, more out of a gut feeling of dislike towards some MMO's than an actual comparison.

Most of the other remaining cases it's used as trolling bait, because the tone of blatant ignorance is guaranteed to rile up other posters.

MMO.Maverick

Originally posted by Gylfi

Damn right... as i said, in the golden age of MMO's the only thing that remained the same was combat, now the only thing that changes is combat... well fricking done. And c'mon,

partially voiced ?

Graphic style ?

guild levelling, sieges, dungeon mechanics... secondary stuff compared to the immense importance of levelling, which takes up 90% of the playtime... stuff that should be the main element of AoC and because of quests they feel like limbs attached at the last moment upon a WoW abomination. You CANNOT possibly deny that those elements you cited feel completely secondary, compared to the "awesome stories of the quests". Quests are like vampires, they suck up the important content that is lore, exploration, money making, gear, everything... nothing's left, just the unimportant parts. Unsurprisingly, the only original parts of a MMO are in those futile parts... they don't deal with lore, they don't deal with levelling, with gear, with exploration. And PvP? It's nothing because there are no serious conquest pvp mechanics, they were too busy writing the last quest line.

Nope, wrong. Especially in games like WoW, leveling to level cap and questing is only a fraction of the playtime and has become secondary. Questing is even negated by doing dungeons continuously, and it's raiding that takes up most of the playtime. leveling has gotten speeded up so it takes even less time to reach level cap.

If you're saying that quests are the most important part in the gameplay in WoW, then you've clearly not played it much and certainly not the last few years. It's raiding and dungone running that are the main parts of someone's gameplay experience in WoW.

That's why Bioware want to bring it back again with their story-heavy, interactive missions, which make it already very different from WoW and unlike WoW in that aspect you find most important, questing.

Lol i've heard Aion being called WoW with wings.

Of course. That's what opponents of a game do, they call the game a 'WoW clone'. It isn't about the facts, but about their dismissal of the game. It's a derogatory term.

dougmysticey

Originally posted by cyphers

Originally posted by dougmysticey

 Good response. Personally, I think that anyone who claims a game = WOW Clone is ignorant of the genre and needs to do some real research befor making that bold statement since WOW in itself is not original in regards to play mechanics.

True. But in 8-9 out 10 cases 'WoW clone' is only being used to talk negatively about themepark MMO's, more out of a gut feeling of dislike towards some MMO's than an actual comparison.

Most of the other remaining cases it's used as trolling bait, because the tone of blatant ignorance is guaranteed to rile up other posters.

 Yeah, sadly I think you are correct.

arieste

when the developers themselves most commonly use the phrase "it's like WoW with..." to describe TOR, why does it upset people that others use the phrase "WoW with lightsabers"... it seems pretty accurate.  it's a game aimed to provide the same general experience as WoW with the main difference being that it has lightsabers (i.e. is set in SW universe and has that story).

 

i don't play WoW, i happily have been playing EQ2 for 6 years... but if you want to all EQ2 "WoW with rats" or to call WoW "EQ2 with night elves", i honestly won't get offended.  The games are very similar in the experience they provide and in how they provide it.  And LoTRO is "WoW with hobbits" and AION is "WoW with wings"...it's not an insult, it's a description.  Ever hear anyone call EVE "WoW in space" ? No?  I wonder why no one uses that insult... maybe because it's not a good way of describing EVE?  When TOR shows enough difference from WoW, people will stop describing it as "WoW-like", not because it will no longer be an insult, but simply because the description will no longer be accurate.

LizardEgypt

Originally posted by arieste

when the developers themselves most commonly use the phrase "it's like WoW with..." to describe TOR, why does it upset people that others use the phrase "WoW with lightsabers"... it seems pretty accurate.  it's a game aimed to provide the same general experience as WoW with the main difference being that it has lightsabers (i.e. is set in SW universe and has that story).

 

i don't play WoW, i happily have been playing EQ2 for 6 years... but if you want to all EQ2 "WoW with rats" or to call WoW "EQ2 with night elves", i honestly won't get offended.  The games are very similar in the experience they provide and in how they provide it.  And LoTRO is "WoW with hobbits" and AION is "WoW with wings"...it's not an insult, it's a description.  Ever hear anyone call EVE "WoW in space" ? No?  I wonder why no one uses that insult... maybe because it's not a good way of describing EVE?  When TOR shows enough difference from WoW, people will stop describing it as "WoW-like", not because it will no longer be an insult, but simply because the description will no longer be accurate.

The developers are doing everything in their power to make an acessible game that follows in the sucess of World of Warcraft. Sure, they want to make it a Star Wars story and experience also but calling it anything other than a WoW clone would be lying. Hopefully however, they stay away from that giant commercial mainstream market and attempt to actually keep a decent game going. (Highly unlikely given the trackrecord of most sucessful game developers). I don't want any mohawk grenades flying around or any twilight references in my star wars games.

maskedweasel

Originally posted by Gylfi

 

---

Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

What you are talking about as far as quests are concerned are visual semantics.  One person might use an exclamation point, another might not,  another might have map markers, another might use echo location.  Visually they are different, mechanically they are similar.  Whether I'm talking to a guy with a red question mark or being ushered into a conversation when I enter a flashpoint the end result doesn't change.

---

 

Sure, we mentioned an element that doesn't make much difference, it's insignificant.

What if Quests still exist, but there's only X's on the map? What if the character accesses a huge screen that has x's and other hot spots that indicate dynamically what's happening, also by type of situation, say siege, assault, patrol, spawning of creatures, escort needed, and so on. No NPC's, just dynamic tasks. Is that still semantics? I don't think so. What about Anarchy Online? Every city had this terminal, the same one. Players weren't forced to get quests because the last NPC of a town sends him to the next one, the player's need to explore would be completely PvP-centric. See? See how quests change the way you play the whole MMO? Why otherwise Warhammer PvP didn't work? Because it was PRISONER of the quests system!!!

---

The question marks and exclamation points are there for one one very good reason -- accessibility.  Is it the only way? No.  Is it the most well known way? Yes.   Just about every current game has the advantage of standardizing gameplay mechanics to ease the transitional phase from one game to the next, whether its cross platform, cross company, or maybe even cross genre.  The exact -- EXACT same mechanics can be seen in many different games.  Anyone who's played Modern Warfare 2 (developed by infinity ward published by activision)  and Borderlands (developed by gearbox and published by 2K games) would know the control scheme is EXACTLY the same.   Anyone who's played King of Fighters (SNK)  and Street Fighter (Capcom) would know that back-down-forward punch is a useful tool to do special moves.

---

 

Accessibility this way sounds like dumbing down.

But players don't like being called dumb. They DESIRE to learn new things, not just easing the transition. That's a terrible thing to say.

 

---

These mechanics are standards to make games accessible and easy to learn.  In an MMO where you live with a hotbar and a progressive content system that relies on questing, the last thing companies want to deal with are players that can't find the next quest chain.

---

 

Nice. So companies instead take players for numbnuts. Good going. How bout a bit of faith in the intelligence? Players DO need challenges, DO enjoy learning, not just knowing and re-knowing. This is the exact reason why the whole genre is direly stagnating and the least creative genre in the beautiful scenario of PC-gaming.

---

Again, are there other ways to do it?  Sure there are.  Would it really be a genre changer?  No.  

---

 

Oh here's another example, then. How 'bout towns are completely manageable by players? Players administrate every part of it, defenses, medicines, NPC troopers, food... they place on a bullettin board all the trading goods needed. Other players need to read these needs and go find them... be it lumberjacking, be it traders establishing resource exchange with other towns, be recruiting by, i dunno, players dressed as priests that have to do great speeches to NPC commoners in villages. These are still quests, no? The difference is that they ARE NOT PRE-COOKED! NO WRITER ever wrote them, the players themselves assign them to each other. Does it make a difference? O'course!!!

[quote]

Quest lines and exclamation points are GENERIC GUIDELINES in RPGs.  You see them in Borderlands.  You see them in NWN.  They are not ONLY prevalent in MMOs.  The structure is the same.  Play through Borderlands and you go to the quest giver with the exclamation point, you accept the quest, you do it, and get a reward, rinse repeat.  Its the same.  No change.[quote]

oh yes, i see all of this in today's clones, alright

It's no surprise that WoW expanded its influence even in Non-mmo's like Borderlands... or Hellgate!

 

---

As far as people not enjoying the missions in TOR, wanting to run through quests, and so on.  Thats their prerogative. That is not the way this game is setup though.  They can skip the voice overs and see the dialogue, but in the end they still have to make a choice.  If they choose to make that choice without first hearing the story behind their choice, thats up to them.

---

 

then the game will be another WoW. Players have to hear the story and then make a choice, because if they do the wrong one, they'll be hunted and hated by every race in the galaxy.

I can well see you didn't read my blog post yet :P

Dynamic quest systems sound great, but they aren't all glitter and roses,  take MxO (the matrix online)  for example.  Everplayed that game?  Sure you had quest givers, but all the quests were dynamic,  spawns in different places,  different characters every time, dynamic agent spawns in certain areas.  The game had its moments, but ultimately failed to provide a dynamic that made it simple and easy to get into.

 

Its not that players don't like a challenge in game systems,  its just more prevalent that you appeal to a wider range of gamers when you adhere to simplicity.

 

What you continue to refer to is a sandbox style of play.  Again, this style caters to players that want to make their own fun.  You are forced to make your own content, both combatatively and economically. Games like  SWG - Pre NGE - shined at this.  Unfortunately, these are the very same games that have lackluster sales, and are barely even on the map.  

 

It isn't caused by being too complicated,  its by not being accessible or allowing players to accomplish something -- or maybe -- feel that there is something to accomplish.

 

"Dumbing down" doesn't make a game bad,  but players want to complain that simplifying systems "dumbs" it down because they are no longer special, and  the only reason people are playing is because they like simple games.  Now other gamers may come into the fray and those that dislike the new simplicity might not have that competitive edge over the "noobs" who just can't understand or enjoy the old system.  By simplifying things,  it doesn't automatically make things worse,  it makes it more accessible and for an MMO accessibility is key in getting the largest audience available.  That, in its essence is what makes WoW popular.  Accessibility in gameplay, accessibility in hardware.  

 

There are games out there that are more complicated,  more challenging, and appeal to many other players albeit, smaller in comparison,  but this is not a game that is looking to be your next sandbox fix.  I've already spoken about this games demographic, which came straight from the developers themselves.  This game isn't made to appeal to everyone.

 

Likewise this game could very well be another WoW if by "another WoW" you mean an intelligently designed game focused on bringing a specific, polished gameplay style to its playerbase, while making the game accessible to various system types and playstyles in a familiar RPG STYLE with exceptional company specific twists,  then I would have to completely agree.

 

 

NovaKayne

Quote Wars !!  FTL

ashfallen

Originally posted by arieste

when the developers themselves most commonly use the phrase "it's like WoW with..." to describe TOR, why does it upset people that others use the phrase "WoW with lightsabers"... it seems pretty accurate.  it's a game aimed to provide the same general experience as WoW with the main difference being that it has lightsabers (i.e. is set in SW universe and has that story).

 

i don't play WoW, i happily have been playing EQ2 for 6 years... but if you want to all EQ2 "WoW with rats" or to call WoW "EQ2 with night elves", i honestly won't get offended.  The games are very similar in the experience they provide and in how they provide it.  And LoTRO is "WoW with hobbits" and AION is "WoW with wings"...it's not an insult, it's a description.  Ever hear anyone call EVE "WoW in space" ? No?  I wonder why no one uses that insult... maybe because it's not a good way of describing EVE?  When TOR shows enough difference from WoW, people will stop describing it as "WoW-like", not because it will no longer be an insult, but simply because the description will no longer be accurate.

 Taking it in the context most often used it is ment to be an insult.  From your point of view its just a description for someone that has played only WoW which would be useful in relating the game.  TBH this post in and of itsself is a lure, setting up by a troll.  You will notice the same names discounting the trolls again and again; then new trolls come along.  Cyphers, among others, is consistantly derailing such threads which is good.  Until we actually grow past petty 'politics', thats what this is at its nature, of "my game is better then yours' no debate is possible. 

DariusGear

Welcome to the world of circular logic if a=b and b=c a must definitely = c, but sadly a=b is only true int he context of a=b and b=c is only true in the context of that b and c.  

That being said lets take a look at the word " genre" which specifically refers to type or category and thus we have the MMORPG genre, or the RPG genre, or the Action Adventure genre, but wait are there not different forms of games in said genres? .. Well of course there are and these are called Sub genres or sub categories;  for example take the RPG genre and think of all the different types of RPGs there are to play, Hack and Slash (diablo type), Action adventure RPG (Zelda, or even Secrets of Mana to an extent), Turn based  "random encounters" ( most Final Fantasies, Lufia, Breath of Fire, etc..) First person Dungeon Crawlers (Eye of the Beholder, Double Dungeons, D&D, etc..., 'Kings Field .. to an extent) First person adventure ( Elder Scrolls games come to mind, Might and Magic Dark Mesihia), Action based "random encounters" (Star Ocean, Tales of Destiny), Tactics RPG( Shining Force, Arc The Lad, Disaga, etc..) and the list goes on. All of the before mention types of games can fall into the RPG genre and may also be classified as their own depending on how you look at it and in a similar like we have Themepark and Sandbox MMO's that each have their own sub categories, i would not say that EVE and DoAC fall into the same sub category of the Sandbox genre. So that being said the question is does SW: ToR fall into the same sub category as WoW sure its quest based, instance (flash points) based etc... but does that make them the same game no, are Tales of Destiny and Star Ocean the same game? they both offer random encounters but players control the main char and can set AI for the others and some other similarities, but they offer different stories a slightly different twist on combat and development, so no they are not the same games.  But if you would like to call SW: ToR, WoW with lightsabers be my guest, i wont stop you, though you would be mistaken. 

one final note think of some books you might have read where you could swear if you just tweaked the story a little and changed the characters it would be the same as another book you read so must they be clones? 

ashfallen

Originally posted by DariusGear

Welcome to the world of circular logic if a=b and b=c a must definitely = c, but sadly a=b is only true int he context of a=b and b=c is only true in the context of that b and c.  

That being said lets take a look at the word " genre" which specifically refers to type or category and thus we have the MMORPG genre, or the RPG genre, or the Action Adventure genre, but wait are there not different forms of games in said genres? .. Well of course there are and these are called Sub genres or sub categories;  for example take the RPG genre and think of all the different types of RPGs there are to play, Hack and Slash (diablo type), Action adventure RPG (Zelda, or even Secrets of Mana to an extent), Turn based  "random encounters" ( most Final Fantasies, Lufia, Breath of Fire, etc..) First person Dungeon Crawlers (Eye of the Beholder, Double Dungeons, D&D, etc..., 'Kings Field .. to an extent) First person adventure ( Elder Scrolls games come to mind, Might and Magic Dark Mesihia), Action based "random encounters" (Star Ocean, Tales of Destiny), Tactics RPG( Shining Force, Arc The Lad, Disaga, etc..) and the list goes on. All of the before mention types of games can fall into the RPG genre and may also be classified as their own depending on how you look at it and in a similar like we have Themepark and Sandbox MMO's that each have their own sub categories, i would not say that EVE and DoAC fall into the same sub category of the Sandbox genre. So that being said the question is does SW: ToR fall into the same sub category as WoW sure its quest based, instance (flash points) based etc... but does that make them the same game no, are Tales of Destiny and Star Ocean the same game? they both offer random encounters but players control the main char and can set AI for the others and some other similarities, but they offer different stories a slightly different twist on combat and development, so no they are not the same games.  But if you would like to call SW: ToR, WoW with lightsabers be my guest, i wont stop you, though you would be mistaken. 

one final note think of some books you might have read where you could swear if you just tweaked the story a little and changed the characters it would be the same as another book you read so must they be clones? 

 Logic: the troll cryptonite.  Fine reasoning, but sadly it will fall on deaf ears.

LizardEgypt

I don't think the whole thing about RPGs all being the same has anything to do with this.. the different here is that this game is clearly being designed off the sucess of another game, if that's not cloning then I don't know what is..

maskedweasel

Originally posted by DariusGear

Welcome to the world of circular logic if a=b and b=c a must definitely = c, but sadly a=b is only true int he context of a=b and b=c is only true in the context of that b and c.  

That being said lets take a look at the word " genre" which specifically refers to type or category and thus we have the MMORPG genre, or the RPG genre, or the Action Adventure genre, but wait are there not different forms of games in said genres? .. Well of course there are and these are called Sub genres or sub categories;  for example take the RPG genre and think of all the different types of RPGs there are to play, Hack and Slash (diablo type), Action adventure RPG (Zelda, or even Secrets of Mana to an extent), Turn based  "random encounters" ( most Final Fantasies, Lufia, Breath of Fire, etc..) First person Dungeon Crawlers (Eye of the Beholder, Double Dungeons, D&D, etc..., 'Kings Field .. to an extent) First person adventure ( Elder Scrolls games come to mind, Might and Magic Dark Mesihia), Action based "random encounters" (Star Ocean, Tales of Destiny), Tactics RPG( Shining Force, Arc The Lad, Disaga, etc..) and the list goes on. All of the before mention types of games can fall into the RPG genre and may also be classified as their own depending on how you look at it and in a similar like we have Themepark and Sandbox MMO's that each have their own sub categories, i would not say that EVE and DoAC fall into the same sub category of the Sandbox genre. So that being said the question is does SW: ToR fall into the same sub category as WoW sure its quest based, instance (flash points) based etc... but does that make them the same game no, are Tales of Destiny and Star Ocean the same game? they both offer random encounters but players control the main char and can set AI for the others and some other similarities, but they offer different stories a slightly different twist on combat and development, so no they are not the same games.  But if you would like to call SW: ToR, WoW with lightsabers be my guest, i wont stop you, though you would be mistaken. 

one final note think of some books you might have read where you could swear if you just tweaked the story a little and changed the characters it would be the same as another book you read so must they be clones? 

Good post.