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EVE Skill/Training Misconception - EXPLAINED
mm0wiggins
Member Posts: 270
Just wanted to try and clear up a wideley spread misconception about EVE's skill training system.
I read a lot on this site and generally follow any and all EVE related topics I find, considering how interested I am in CCP's unique approach to MMO's. Unfortunately, most of what I read about EVE is complaints. This is understandable since most forum posts (myself included) are complaints of one kind or another, and that EVE itself is so far off from the typical, mainstream theme-park approach to gaming that most MMO developers have settled on.
Anyways, what I'd like to address is the redundant complaints I read/hear about new players trying to get into EVE and then getting discouraged by the time-based skill training system.
It always comes back to a certain statement: "I will never catch up to people who have played longer!"
This is way too cut and dry for a proper, mindful approach to EVE.
First of all, what MMORPG's are out there that don't have a hint of this universal truth? If you have an mmo player who's played for 5 years, they will be further "ahead" in items, XP, levels, etc as someone who joined and has been only been playing for a week. This gap typically does not close until the 5 year player "stops" playing, or progressing.
Second, EVE is actually one of the few games out there that keeps this in mind and has a progression system that promotes new players, if only they(you) would spend a moment to think about how it really works. Most importantly, ALL skills in Eve Online cap at level 5. Let me say that again.... ALL skills cap at level 5. This means if a new player gets a skill (let's say, the skill 'gunnery') to level 5, that player is now equally efficient as a 5 year player at this skill.
So, two players, 5 years apart in training/skills. Both at lvl 5 gunnery. Both shooting at eachother. Both doing virtually the same damage (give or take preferencial differences in itemization/ships) This means the new player can "catch up" to any skill(s) another player has, regardless of playtime. The only advantage the older player has is he or she might have multiple skills at level 5 which ultimately just gives them more "options"
So, the 5 year player may be in the same ship, with the same guns, and the same proficiency with them as you, but the difference is that 5 year player may go back to a station and choose a different ship, with different weapons, and you only have the one ship with those weapons because you trained for that much time.
No player can utilize more skills than the ship they are flying can use.
Here's an analogy in WoW terms: You may have a paladin, rogue, hunter, shaman, warlock, mage, warrior all at level 80 but you can only use 1 at a time. So, if you have played for 5 years, you still are just "a paladin" at the moment, or a rogue, etc. Another player joins in and after 3 months, has a level 80 paladin - gear and enchants aside, you are both the same thing with the same opportunities... YOU would just have the option to log off and switch to another class, while the new player only has that one class to use until he levels up with the rest. Same goes for EVE, instead you don't have to log off to switch, you just dock at a station and get into a different ship that plays a different role (the role you've chosen it to play, based on your skills and items)
People act like in EVE, they will have to play catch-up on an unlimited scale. This is not the case.
Just remember, all skills can only get to level 5 before you have to train something else. so everyone you see, regardless of playtime, is ultimately just a maximum of level 5 at the moment you see them. Whatever ship they are in, whatever they are doing, they are doing with a max proficiency of level 5. This is not at all impossible to "catch up" to.
Besides, the most important factor in successful engagements in EVE is not just the amount of skills a player has, but rather, the player's wisdom and understanding of the gameworld itself. Knowing the UI, the pace, understanding your surroundings, the rules of engagement, the specifics in ships/weapons involved, the mathematics, tactics, specifics in general... skill points only determine what you can fly and use, and how 'potent' they are by a marginal percentage. You will find that seasoned players, the ones that have been in EVE for many years, aren't just flying around in big expensive ships. They are using the small cheap ships that are available to all players within a week of rolling a character. They Customize their skills to support what they want to do, and then they practice doing it.
skill training in Eve is nothing more than an intricate way to craft a class-role for yourself. Even with all the skills in the game at level 5, you can still suck and never achieve anything if you havent actually LEARNED the game itself.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Comments
Virtually the same damage? Right.. I guess you forgot to tell about all the skills that boosts eachother. For example, gunnery gives more damage, but it doesnt give you more rapid fire, or more precision, in other words, the 5 year old player has ALL the skills for this, including hp boost, shield boost, and so on. All in all, he will always be able to kick your ass.
It isn't even a discussion, its a fact.
You're looking past what I'm saying.
Of course the other skills come in to equation in the "real world" scenerio... You're just being devil's advocate here. You know what I was explaining here was only for example's sake. Point remains, all the same.
New player trains all the gunnery skills to 5, all the tanking (shields and armor) skills to 5, and "so on" (which I assume you mean as skills such as weapon upgrades, targetting, etc) all to 5. The result would be, again, Virtually the same.
Only, perhaps the 5 year player also has mining skills at lvl 5, and marketting 5, and day trading 5, and salvaging 5, etc....
You see how those other skills he has just for playing longer mean absolutely NOTHING in this hypothetical battle situation?
The issue here, I think, is that many potential Eve players see this and still get discouraged, being that they want lvl 5 skills 'now' and are not willing to go through the same progression time as the ones that did. People who have spent years leveling up in other MMO's get tired/bored of them, they cancel, and they see Eve and think "i could get into this!" and forget that just like all other mmo's it will take at least SOME time to get to the good stuff. The point I'm making in my OP is that at least the skill cap system makes it take less time to get to the good stuff compared to other games.
I have 4 irl friends playing Eve that were skeptical at first but after I walked them through the basics and helped them with the learning curve became very skilled pilots. I mean, come on... 3 months into playing and they are in 0.0 security systems with me, having a blast. Aside from WoW, what MMO can you do "hardcore" content, pve or pvp within 3 months of rolling a character? Aion, for example, takes about a year to get to cap (more if you're not a hyper-hardcore player) - Eve tries to get players to the meat of it on their own initiative. When 'you' feel you are 'ready' for big things in Eve, you're ready. Go do it.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Topic creator, was the "deleted user" in this thread http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/266754 you by any chance? Same type of propanda bullshit designed to attract new players to a game that does anything but cater to them. The skill point system is simply broken and always favors the older players.
I don't think the skill system is somthing that prevents new players from wanting to play, I mean you even say it yourself it's the same as someone with tons of characters or w/e in another game.
EVE is a really hit or miss game, I for one Love all the concepts in eve. But I hate the game I find it boring and unintresting most of the time. When I played I hated when people said it's like playing a spreadsheet but you basicly said it it's all about knowing the numbers the distances and everything. There is nothing visually inutive about eve take out the UI and you have some ships you see as dots on the screen.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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End of Story...
There you have it. You admitted that Gunnery level 5 isnt enough. He needs all the "side" skills aswell for gunnery, and lets just theoretically say you need 5 "side" skills trained+Gunnery to be maxed out in weapons. Each skill trained to level 5 takes around 18 days. 6x18=108 days of training! And that's without armor, shield and so on. That is ridicolous.
The thing is... EVE skills provide severely diminishing returns.
So a 5 year player might have ALL of the skills applicable to frigates maxed out at 5. But a new player takes 6 months and has ALL of the skills applicable to frigates at levels 3 or 4, then that 6 month player is about 80% as effective as the 5 year player in that same ship doing that same role. So thats spending 10% of the time to reach 80% of the strength. And in EVE, skill can more than easily make up the gap in raw number effectiveness.
I get what people say about it and how they think. But the reality is that there are always people at the top of every MMO. And unless they stop playing, they will likely always stay there.
Yeah, cause it's just ridiculous that it only takes 108 days (a little over 3 months) to catch up to the proficiency someone has who's played for 5 years.
Are you serious? Am I missing something? Since when were MMO's (especially ones as deep as EVE) expected to give that kind of instant gratification? In EQ, could you catch up to a 5 year player in 3 months? Could you in DAOC? Ultima? .. I think not.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
It is one of the many reasons why i do not play Eve. Why pay a sub for something if you cannot possibly even compete in for multiple months? That's just no fun at all in a game that is fundamentally PvP based. This is compounded by the giant learning curve you have to overcome and the overwhelming number of options. You have to read at least a dozen different newbie guids to even try and get a bearing on what you might possibly begin to focus on. In that environment new players do not stand a chance. The game is hostile to new players pure and simple. I also, as an aside, personally have issues trusting a game that requires a built in calculator. I dont want to be mathed to death I want to friggen play a game.
Edit: Typographical errors fixed.
No, not me...
But I guess I should have expected people to first look for something lame to discredit me before giving any thought to what I said in my post.
You may go away from this thread now, you won't have anything to offer if all you care about is "lemme find something else this guy posted to make him look bad, since I'm a douche who isn't really reading this post anyways."
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Resorting to ad-hominem name calling illuminates a flawed argument.
No its not, I've maxed out my Drake's passive tank and almost all the secondary missile skills in less than a year. If you plan out your build with EVEMON, it is VERY easy and possible to completely max out every secondary skill for a specific ship type, including armor/shield tanking, basic navigation skills, and even targetting stuff. My character could finish the x5 multiplier missile skills by Sept, DOB, if I wasn't busy training for a Hulk. I already have the navigation/engineering stuff maxed and most of the electronics.
This whole "new players can't catch up to vets" garbage is getting old, anyone with EVEMON can easily see what BS it is.
While I understand what the OP is trying to say, I think the person I've quoted above is correct. It's not as simple as getting gunnery to 5, which is the gross oversimplification in the OP. There are not only a lot of related and advanced skills to consider with regard to gunnery, but also the defense, EW navigation, electronic, mechanical skills that all go into piloting (with all related and advanced versions of skills) to be considered as well.
While I agree that it would be possible to "catch up" to someone in any one particular broadly-defined role, it will take a much, much longer time than the OP seems to admit.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
A year!? You have to sub for a year to compete? Gee Wilikers what a waste of money. I am unsure if you play in other MMOs, but in most of them you can max a Character out in 1-2 months of dedicated play.
I totally see where you're coming from here. I pretty much agree as well. I've been playing Eve for years, but I know it's faults and it truly is not a "videogame" when compared to the other options. It's a scifi tactical simulation that heavily relies on math, calculations, and networking. Fine. But that's not the point here lol. I know Eve is not perfect, and I know there are plenty of reasons not to play, if one is a mainstream theme-park style gamer.
The point is, people are simply not understanding the skill system and keep posting threads about how it doesn't work and how it's not fair and all, but all the players in eve who didn't just give up because it hurts to 'think' a little, don't feel this way. Because it isn't this way. I just wanted to try and help people understand the skill system, not spark a "why eve sucks" arguement.
There are plenty of threads for that, but I don't see many that try to explain this ONE aspect of the game.
If you guys don't like it, fair enough, but it's just bologna to say that it is impossible to compete. Yes, new players will lose a lot, because that is the learning curve in any hardcore pVp game.
Try going to an arcade and playing a fighting game you've never played against one of the kids who are there every day, and then complain that you can't beat him after 20 minutes of trying.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
No, you can't. You can do that in World of Warcraft. That is not "most of them" that is one of them. Just becuase World of Warcraft is easy mode, does not mean any other game has to be.
"Most" MMOs take at least a year to 'cap' or get to 'end game' or to aquire all the gear you'll need to be top notch.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Another thing players who are new to EVE rarely understand it that most high-end players have multiple accounts, or at least are not playing on the same character they started the game with. A few of my friends are really into piracy and it's no uncommon for them to roll a new character ever 5-6 months.
Blizzard uses WOW to harvest hours played into bottles so that the dev team can remain immortal
In fact, I know alot of corp pvpers who started playing within the last 4-5 months.
Blizzard uses WOW to harvest hours played into bottles so that the dev team can remain immortal
Which games would those be?
Exactly. In fact, a lot of pvpers, miners, mission runners, traders, truckers, explorers, site-hackers, rpers, and casual/hardcore players in general are only a few months old. Every day I see players with a birthdate (yes, player info shows when they rolled the character) of only a couple months and they don't seem to be complaining.
I really just think that instead of admitting that they think the game is too hard, or that they aren't "technically minded" enough, or that they aren't good at math, or simply are not patient enough to start progression from 0 in a new game, it's easier for people to say "it's not fair. I will never catch up." This cop-out is indeed getting very old. Anyone who does understand EVE understands this, so I find it amusing and frustrating at the same time that I'm even bothering to try and help people understand this, considering they've already made up their mind to dislike the game and not actually put any effort into learning what's what.
Again, no game is perfect, and EVE is definately not for the mainstream (i really should explain why, but people would be insulted) so I still don't think anyone should be "talked into playing" - I'm just tired of the uninformed rumor spreading about the skill system.
The uninformed judgements
The uninformed comparisons
These people usually don't get past their 14 day trial, yet they speak as if they've used the skill system for the years they complain about.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
20 minutes and a couple of dollars in quarters is vastly different than 6 months and over $100 of investment. We're Americans and we're impatient and we demand the fun come a bit more quickly in general. There are exceptions but as ageneral rule of thumb companies that make entertainment products should know that. What keeps Eve afloat is not new subs but a small ultra-dedicated legion of super nerds. (The Nerd label is not derrogatory and should be accepted as a badge of honor. Nerds make the world run.) Your premise is that it doesnt really take long for a brand new sub to compete with a 5 year veteran player in your attempt to say there are no issues with the skills system. The problem is that it does take a long time, and there are more facets that discourage new players than just the skills system that determine the time it takes.
I personally don't believe people of higher SP levels are at a significantly larger advantage. Eve is a game of specialization. You can specialize and be the best in any one are of the game within a few months. I have a 21 mill SP Pilot highly specialized in hybrid weapon PVP. He flies Gallente Command ships, and BS's with the ability to use T2 large hybrid weapons.
There are more than a few pilots I know of sitting at 60 million + SP that I have personally turned to dust without so much as breaking a sweat. A significant time difference in training does not hamper your ability to contend with big dogs. All the same I've had my ass handed to me by pilots with only 10 mill SP flying around in small groups of interceptors, literally flies in total cost to purchase and outfit their ship to my fully decked in T2 equipment 200+100 million give or take in equipment Command ship.
To say that time in the game affects accessibility is bull. If I can kill people riding on 3 times my alloted skill points, then turn around get get destroyed by somebody with half mine, that says something to the player himself, and not the amount of time he's spent training skills.
Played - EQ 1/2, WoW, SWG, SWTOR, GW 1/2 UO, STO, CO, DCUO, AO, Rift.
If i didn't know better, I'd say you were just trolling or whatever the popular forum term is now for trying to get a rise out of someone...
In any case, I am not going to sit here and school you or anyone on what MMO's are, or how they started. If you truly don't know what MMOs took more than 1-3 months to cap and all, then you obviously ONLY play World of Warcraft... mayyyybe even Warhammer Online.
Anyways, this is an EVE post in an EVE forum... if you want to have a pi$$ing contest about who knows what about MMOs i suggest you priv msg me and leave the contentious attitude at the door.
pfff...
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
^ this.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Ofcourse it is not anly about training gunne to lvl 5, that would take 7 days for a new character. And I can't see any implications that it would take mere 7 days to catch up to 5ý old character. And also, it would be silly to expect that you would be able to catch up in 7 days.
From lvl4 (1d6h) to lvl5 in gunnery you will give 102 damage instead of 100, it's a 2% difference. Comparing two people fighting eachother none of that would give any advantage, one glancing hit would make alot more difference.
And that goes with alot of other skills aswell.
You are making a list. There is a breakpoint there, at which you have catched up as the OP is trying to say.
EW at what lvl, lvl5? In that context maybe there is no reason to have gunnero to lvl4 even.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"