The main reason why I did not play Eve for very long was mainly due to enjoying playing alts to have different ways to play the game.
Not being able to train skills on two characters at the same time on the same account killed the game for me.
I did not see paying 30 bucks a month to play 2 characters when I could just play practically any other MMO out there and have plenty of characters to play to keep things interesting without having to spend twice the money.
They will hit you with a comment like: "You can't level up two characters at the same time in other MMOs either." I know what you mean but you should think it through.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
... I decided to move on to games that I found fun now, not later.
Fair enough, but for the record, it's this kind of mentality in the new mainstream generation of MMO players that pushes the devs to go the route of World of Warcraft ethics. Instant gratification is for console games and single player games. MMO's were never built for the mindset of "i want everything now and don't want to have to earn it". Granted, the game should still be fun, and I agree that EVE (if you don't understand it, can't grasp the mechanics) can be no fun.
First mm0wiggins, you're really out of touch with the MMO landscape at large. To answer your earlier question, YES it is possible for a 3 month old character to surpass a 5 (or 10) year vet character in EverQuest. It's done every single day. A dedicated player can be max level inside of a month, close to max AA in another month, and dripping in raid gear by the end of the third month. Meanwhile, that 5 or 10 year vet is grouping with his casual friends and guildies in casual grouping zones for casual xp and poor gear. Or, he's dripping in four expansion old raid (or Old Man McKenzie) gear.
Your original post was a half truth put forth to try to sway opinions that are based in fact (at least on the surface). People don't want to have to wait 6 months before they're an adequate specialist. Not when they can be that specialist moments after character creation. Since you brought up EQ, how long does it take before a cleric is the game's best healer?
Sometimes I wish EVE players would stop trying to evangelize using flimsy arguments that fly in the face of what is true and/or likely. Yes, on paper, a person can "specialize" in a smaller ship type inside of 2-3 months. But few people want to be specialists in disposable ships. When people see and hear about EVE, it's often with videos featuring Titans and Dreads and Motherships and Carriers. Can you specialize in those in 2-3 months? 2-3 years? When you consider a large part of a new player's first week or two of play is going to be spent training skills that make the "real" skills train faster (learning), you can't fault people for forming the opinion that it takes a long ass time (in REAL time) to get to "the good part". Let's not even get into the "making enough money to afford that ship you have your eye on" part (ooo mission running or mining. Which one will bore me less?). Granted, you have some flat-out fun missions (Worlds Collide, for example) but for the most part, it's monotony. What's worse, it can often be SOLO monotony.
For the record, I play EVE (four accounts) but I realize it's not for everyone. Heck, it's not for MOST MMO players since they largely need the theme park. They need the game to tell them "Okay, do this next". Also, it's no different than how "old school" EQ was since the leveling path was the same deal ("Oh, you're level 30. Go to Sol B/the Overthere"). The only difference is, WoW made it idiotproof.
Oh and as much as I love my sandboxes (I play Ryzom and A Tale in the Desert too), I disagree with your assertion. Instant gratification is for whoever's willing to pay for it. Also, I hope you enjoy EVE and renew your sub in annual increments (not that month to month, wishy washy crap) because you will never see a game develop like EVE had the opportunity to. From next to no players (less than 5k around launch) with consistent organic growth to its current level (near 400k judging from Grimmi's "Unholy Rage" devblog last year, using the rate of growth he alluded to). You're either a hit or you crap out, unless you're being pimped for a bigger title (isn't that right, Champions?).
Now i am not a big poster on forums but i think the one big misconeption about is is how it is played. Compairing eve to WOw and all the various mmo's is the first mistake i think it is completely different . Players in Eve tend to have to look at the big picture moreso then other mmo's The planning and depth of Eve is only as limmited as a players imagination.
Personaly i play a few mmo's and realisticly i dont think we can class EVE as a mmo.
It is more of a simulation that everything and anything can be done . For example if you want to come in and fly as a pirate you can . If you never want to leave a space station and set up a trading empire you can do that too (and i frequently do). If you want to fly into low sec and fly for PvP you can . If all you want to do is laze arround and mine asteriods while lissening to your faverate tunes on Eve radio you can do that too.
Now as for the Skillset and learning these skill sets i think out of all games on the internet eve you have to do the most planning cause skills complument other skills. New Players to EVE if i ever give any advice it is do the tutorials they will save your life.
Eve by far isnt a perfect game i dont think any game on the nett is but it does have features that make it a joy to play . The Key HERE is it is Differnt to anything else out there and require more research and time to play. Lke most things the more time you put into a game the more you get out and i dont know about anyone else but a game that i play for 2 months and already have a max char is a little boring to me.
Current games; Star treck online Rift Eve online Firefall
The main reason why I did not play Eve for very long was mainly due to enjoying playing alts to have different ways to play the game.
Not being able to train skills on two characters at the same time on the same account killed the game for me.
I did not see paying 30 bucks a month to play 2 characters when I could just play practically any other MMO out there and have plenty of characters to play to keep things interesting without having to spend twice the money.
They will hit you with a comment like: "You can't level up two characters at the same time in other MMOs either." I know what you mean but you should think it through.
Heh. But its so true, you can't level up 2 characters at the same time in any game. EVE's really not any different. Except that there really isn't any reason to level up 2 characters, you can train the same character for two different roles.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It is more of a simulation that everything and anything can be done .
I think you hit the nail on the head here really.
I often somtimes forget this aspect, but your totally right. Its not really a 'game' its a space simulator.
Once this clicks in peoples minds it makes a lot more sense. Everyone knows a flight simulator isnt a game, but people still love to fly around the world in real time. Eve is never going to be like a game.
It is more of a simulation that everything and anything can be done .
I think you hit the nail on the head here really.
I often somtimes forget this aspect, but your totally right. Its not really a 'game' its a space simulator.
Once this clicks in peoples minds it makes a lot more sense. Everyone knows a flight simulator isnt a game, but people still love to fly around the world in real time. Eve is never going to be like a game.
No, it's not even close to a space simulator. It's well known that the engine that EVE uses is closer to being a water simulator than anything else. Over the years CCP has clarified this many times.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
All I see when I read some of these posts are the WoW-tards chewing on their keyboards because other than buying Augs, they cannot affect how quickly their skills move up. There are many, MANY other ways to succeed in this game.
I tried this game three freakin times, didn't take on the first two because I didn't "get it" and left frustrated. The third time, instead of running off like an R-tard orc in a loincloth (that's me!), I actually sat down and went through the WHOLE tutorial put off by the Sisters of EvE in your starting base. Those tutorials will show you how to play the game, but it won't show you how to survive in it. This is where a good Corporation comes in. I'm in a newbie friendly corp (Gun Metal Grace) full of awesome people! The community in this game is TIGHT! But it has it's share of a#@holes as well, but what do you expect when all the gloves are off?
I learned recently, after finally getting together my first battlecruiser, getting the augs I wanted, getting everything fitted and saving up 95 million ISK that you do NOT run missions in low sec space (0.4 or below for those not familiar) in your most valuable ship by yourself! In a matter of minutes I was ganged up on by five pirates, in smaller vessels who simply warp scrambled me so I couldn't get away and just outgunned me. I think I managed to kill one but the other four were just too quick. To make matters worse, they podded me! (For those not familar, you can destroy someones ship - better have insurance - but you, the character show up in a pod capable of flying back to a station so you can get another ship. If someone destroys that pod, then your last clone is activated and you show up with all your skill points in tact - better have your clone type updated for this to happen - but you lose all your augs - $$$$$$$$$ EXPENSIVE $$$$$$$$$.) Podding is nasty and a social no no, but in low sec space it's all out PvP where you play for keeps....period!
Granted I had kill rights on the four of them (meaning I could attack them in high security space for a limited time without the police attacking me), but I figured I'd just pick myself up and start over again. When all was said and done, my 95 million ISK became 6 million ISK, but I was back in business. It's a piss off having this happen, but hey! LESSON LEARNED!
Now, anytime I do a courier mission in low sec space (courier only!),it's in the cheapest ship I can find with the cheapest fittings and nothing in the cargo hold other than the mission items to be couriered. I save my big guns for high sec space and for when we, as a corp, go out into low sec looking to bloody noses....but remember, even then never fly a ship into low sec you're too afraid to lose. (PS: Insurance only covers 80% of the ship cost only, the fittings are lost entirely)
For those that are new to this game and want to make a quick buck? Buy PLEX and sell it in game. Completely legal and is worth a LOT of ingame money. (PLEX are ingame items that give you subscription time in lieu of paying for your subscription). OR you can do what my friend does.....lie, cheat, steal. It's all fair in love and war. Unless someone is hacking the game, CCP is only going to tell you to HTFU (Harden The F@#$ Up). In fact, they have a music video! Enjoy!
If you stick with it, you'll never find a more satisfying and deep experience, but this game is DEFINATELY not for everyone. My advice? Make friends, lots of them....and don't be afraid to pull the wool over someone's eyes occasionally.
You can catch up veterans within three months to a year by focusing on specific type of ships and weapons. For example, if you focus on becoming a good tackler, you can join major PvP engagements rather quickly and be almost as effective as veteran tackler in that role.
Being veteran means that you have more choice in roles and ships. And of course more skills at 5. However, many skills give only small benefits when training from level 4 to level 5. So the handicap for new players is rather small.
Most battles in EVE are won or lost at the station fitting window. And the actual one on one engagements are often decided on the basis of who manages to shoot first. But it is also good to keep in mind that in large fleet battles it does not make a huge difference whether you have skills at level 4 or 5. However that does depend on your role as well.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
No, it's not even close to a space simulator. It's well known that the engine that EVE uses is closer to being a water simulator than anything else. Over the years CCP has clarified this many times.
And CCP will be the first to tell you that 'over the years' their vision for Eve has changed considerably.
But the point is, 'simulator' is the word they use.
This may be off topic but I have something to say and while reading this thread is when the points came to mind. You can't really stop me anyway so haha!
First off I will stay on topic for a sentence and say, I think Eve's skill system is good for an mmo where you play with other people as long you can have fun with other parts of the game.
I played Eve and yes I now do not for reasons pertaining to fun and money mostly. If it was free to play I might keep my skills training but there is really no fun in the game for me. If I could have fun in combat with out the extreme boredom of having to grind for cash then ya I would still pay to play. You see I need entertainment to live a balanced life and Eve just amounts to another job; you have a better chance in Eve to make a lot of money if you start with nothing but it is still a lot of work with very little fun sprinkled into the grinds and political struggles I don't care to bother with. After all I'm in search of fun so I can face another day of work and chores.
Now the skill training was not that bad. It was frustrating to be sure, because you just want to be able to do everything and there is no game mechanic keeping you from doing it. I think Eve is great for that open-endedness that it has while you still realistically have to rely on people for some things witch gives the market real purpose. Eve's skill system allows for open-endedness and codependency to simultaneously coexist. Think about it, you know it's true even though you may not want to admit it.
So the skill training in Eve is good but what is not good is that the basic things you can do are not fun. Combat is lame and boring and mining is lame and boring. However if your one of the few who love to play the market then you are arguably going to have more fun in Eve than you could in any other mmo.
Market depth aside the game is very boring. I don't get the sense of flying a space ship and I don't feel that combat is more than a mouse click and auto fire repetition and there are no cool experiences like flying into a death star and destroying the power core. What I get is a dry game play mechanic and frustration when navigating around objects. If they would add interesting multi player pve and change the ship control mechanic to give you more precise and enjoyable control of your ship it would help. If they would add the ability to use objects for cover that would help as well.
I remember going to different places in WoW and thinking wow that looks cool like Blackwing Spire (or whatever it's called http://wowvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=718 ). Also in WoW the fights are interesting as well and that helped the fun.
Darkfall has a great combat mechanic (twitch) and it does allow for a better game play versatility. However Darkfall has a flawed view on how a game should be policed. Darfall has a Morrowind skill system and yet tries to punish people for swimming while they are afk (so that they can lvl faster). Instead I think they should employ Eve's skill system and solve the problem. If darfall had Eve's skill system and market and WoW's interesting pve fights it would easily be the best value for fun.
One thing to note is that if Darkfall had Eve's skill system then harvesting would be avoidable as harvesting is easily the most repetitive boring thing in the game. Harvesting however is one of the best ways to get some of your combat relevant stats up.
Does a boring mechanic need to be in an mmo? I challenge developers to make an mmo without boring mechanics in them. Or at least give us a Puzzle Quest Galatrix style mini game mechanic to add a bit of skill to harvesting resources. Enough with the dice rolls already!!!!
As a side note I commend Eve on their player structure system which has utility and a measure of customization and plenty of placement freedom.
Comments
They will hit you with a comment like: "You can't level up two characters at the same time in other MMOs either." I know what you mean but you should think it through.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
First mm0wiggins, you're really out of touch with the MMO landscape at large. To answer your earlier question, YES it is possible for a 3 month old character to surpass a 5 (or 10) year vet character in EverQuest. It's done every single day. A dedicated player can be max level inside of a month, close to max AA in another month, and dripping in raid gear by the end of the third month. Meanwhile, that 5 or 10 year vet is grouping with his casual friends and guildies in casual grouping zones for casual xp and poor gear. Or, he's dripping in four expansion old raid (or Old Man McKenzie) gear.
Your original post was a half truth put forth to try to sway opinions that are based in fact (at least on the surface). People don't want to have to wait 6 months before they're an adequate specialist. Not when they can be that specialist moments after character creation. Since you brought up EQ, how long does it take before a cleric is the game's best healer?
Sometimes I wish EVE players would stop trying to evangelize using flimsy arguments that fly in the face of what is true and/or likely. Yes, on paper, a person can "specialize" in a smaller ship type inside of 2-3 months. But few people want to be specialists in disposable ships. When people see and hear about EVE, it's often with videos featuring Titans and Dreads and Motherships and Carriers. Can you specialize in those in 2-3 months? 2-3 years? When you consider a large part of a new player's first week or two of play is going to be spent training skills that make the "real" skills train faster (learning), you can't fault people for forming the opinion that it takes a long ass time (in REAL time) to get to "the good part". Let's not even get into the "making enough money to afford that ship you have your eye on" part (ooo mission running or mining. Which one will bore me less?). Granted, you have some flat-out fun missions (Worlds Collide, for example) but for the most part, it's monotony. What's worse, it can often be SOLO monotony.
For the record, I play EVE (four accounts) but I realize it's not for everyone. Heck, it's not for MOST MMO players since they largely need the theme park. They need the game to tell them "Okay, do this next". Also, it's no different than how "old school" EQ was since the leveling path was the same deal ("Oh, you're level 30. Go to Sol B/the Overthere"). The only difference is, WoW made it idiotproof.
Oh and as much as I love my sandboxes (I play Ryzom and A Tale in the Desert too), I disagree with your assertion. Instant gratification is for whoever's willing to pay for it. Also, I hope you enjoy EVE and renew your sub in annual increments (not that month to month, wishy washy crap) because you will never see a game develop like EVE had the opportunity to. From next to no players (less than 5k around launch) with consistent organic growth to its current level (near 400k judging from Grimmi's "Unholy Rage" devblog last year, using the rate of growth he alluded to). You're either a hit or you crap out, unless you're being pimped for a bigger title (isn't that right, Champions?).
Hey all
Now i am not a big poster on forums but i think the one big misconeption about is is how it is played. Compairing eve to WOw and all the various mmo's is the first mistake i think it is completely different . Players in Eve tend to have to look at the big picture moreso then other mmo's The planning and depth of Eve is only as limmited as a players imagination.
Personaly i play a few mmo's and realisticly i dont think we can class EVE as a mmo.
It is more of a simulation that everything and anything can be done . For example if you want to come in and fly as a pirate you can . If you never want to leave a space station and set up a trading empire you can do that too (and i frequently do). If you want to fly into low sec and fly for PvP you can . If all you want to do is laze arround and mine asteriods while lissening to your faverate tunes on Eve radio you can do that too.
Now as for the Skillset and learning these skill sets i think out of all games on the internet eve you have to do the most planning cause skills complument other skills. New Players to EVE if i ever give any advice it is do the tutorials they will save your life.
Eve by far isnt a perfect game i dont think any game on the nett is but it does have features that make it a joy to play . The Key HERE is it is Differnt to anything else out there and require more research and time to play. Lke most things the more time you put into a game the more you get out and i dont know about anyone else but a game that i play for 2 months and already have a max char is a little boring to me.
Current games;
Star treck online
Rift
Eve online
Firefall
Heh. But its so true, you can't level up 2 characters at the same time in any game. EVE's really not any different. Except that there really isn't any reason to level up 2 characters, you can train the same character for two different roles.
Just takes you longer to get to your goals.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think you hit the nail on the head here really.
I often somtimes forget this aspect, but your totally right. Its not really a 'game' its a space simulator.
Once this clicks in peoples minds it makes a lot more sense. Everyone knows a flight simulator isnt a game, but people still love to fly around the world in real time. Eve is never going to be like a game.
No, it's not even close to a space simulator. It's well known that the engine that EVE uses is closer to being a water simulator than anything else. Over the years CCP has clarified this many times.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
All I see when I read some of these posts are the WoW-tards chewing on their keyboards because other than buying Augs, they cannot affect how quickly their skills move up. There are many, MANY other ways to succeed in this game.
I tried this game three freakin times, didn't take on the first two because I didn't "get it" and left frustrated. The third time, instead of running off like an R-tard orc in a loincloth (that's me!), I actually sat down and went through the WHOLE tutorial put off by the Sisters of EvE in your starting base. Those tutorials will show you how to play the game, but it won't show you how to survive in it. This is where a good Corporation comes in. I'm in a newbie friendly corp (Gun Metal Grace) full of awesome people! The community in this game is TIGHT! But it has it's share of a#@holes as well, but what do you expect when all the gloves are off?
I learned recently, after finally getting together my first battlecruiser, getting the augs I wanted, getting everything fitted and saving up 95 million ISK that you do NOT run missions in low sec space (0.4 or below for those not familiar) in your most valuable ship by yourself! In a matter of minutes I was ganged up on by five pirates, in smaller vessels who simply warp scrambled me so I couldn't get away and just outgunned me. I think I managed to kill one but the other four were just too quick. To make matters worse, they podded me! (For those not familar, you can destroy someones ship - better have insurance - but you, the character show up in a pod capable of flying back to a station so you can get another ship. If someone destroys that pod, then your last clone is activated and you show up with all your skill points in tact - better have your clone type updated for this to happen - but you lose all your augs - $$$$$$$$$ EXPENSIVE $$$$$$$$$.) Podding is nasty and a social no no, but in low sec space it's all out PvP where you play for keeps....period!
Granted I had kill rights on the four of them (meaning I could attack them in high security space for a limited time without the police attacking me), but I figured I'd just pick myself up and start over again. When all was said and done, my 95 million ISK became 6 million ISK, but I was back in business. It's a piss off having this happen, but hey! LESSON LEARNED!
Now, anytime I do a courier mission in low sec space (courier only!),it's in the cheapest ship I can find with the cheapest fittings and nothing in the cargo hold other than the mission items to be couriered. I save my big guns for high sec space and for when we, as a corp, go out into low sec looking to bloody noses....but remember, even then never fly a ship into low sec you're too afraid to lose. (PS: Insurance only covers 80% of the ship cost only, the fittings are lost entirely)
For those that are new to this game and want to make a quick buck? Buy PLEX and sell it in game. Completely legal and is worth a LOT of ingame money. (PLEX are ingame items that give you subscription time in lieu of paying for your subscription). OR you can do what my friend does.....lie, cheat, steal. It's all fair in love and war. Unless someone is hacking the game, CCP is only going to tell you to HTFU (Harden The F@#$ Up). In fact, they have a music video! Enjoy!
If you stick with it, you'll never find a more satisfying and deep experience, but this game is DEFINATELY not for everyone. My advice? Make friends, lots of them....and don't be afraid to pull the wool over someone's eyes occasionally.
Well, the OP kinda misrepresents the point.
You can catch up veterans within three months to a year by focusing on specific type of ships and weapons. For example, if you focus on becoming a good tackler, you can join major PvP engagements rather quickly and be almost as effective as veteran tackler in that role.
Being veteran means that you have more choice in roles and ships. And of course more skills at 5. However, many skills give only small benefits when training from level 4 to level 5. So the handicap for new players is rather small.
Most battles in EVE are won or lost at the station fitting window. And the actual one on one engagements are often decided on the basis of who manages to shoot first. But it is also good to keep in mind that in large fleet battles it does not make a huge difference whether you have skills at level 4 or 5. However that does depend on your role as well.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
And CCP will be the first to tell you that 'over the years' their vision for Eve has changed considerably.
But the point is, 'simulator' is the word they use.
This may be off topic but I have something to say and while reading this thread is when the points came to mind. You can't really stop me anyway so haha!
First off I will stay on topic for a sentence and say, I think Eve's skill system is good for an mmo where you play with other people as long you can have fun with other parts of the game.
I played Eve and yes I now do not for reasons pertaining to fun and money mostly. If it was free to play I might keep my skills training but there is really no fun in the game for me. If I could have fun in combat with out the extreme boredom of having to grind for cash then ya I would still pay to play. You see I need entertainment to live a balanced life and Eve just amounts to another job; you have a better chance in Eve to make a lot of money if you start with nothing but it is still a lot of work with very little fun sprinkled into the grinds and political struggles I don't care to bother with. After all I'm in search of fun so I can face another day of work and chores.
Now the skill training was not that bad. It was frustrating to be sure, because you just want to be able to do everything and there is no game mechanic keeping you from doing it. I think Eve is great for that open-endedness that it has while you still realistically have to rely on people for some things witch gives the market real purpose. Eve's skill system allows for open-endedness and codependency to simultaneously coexist. Think about it, you know it's true even though you may not want to admit it.
So the skill training in Eve is good but what is not good is that the basic things you can do are not fun. Combat is lame and boring and mining is lame and boring. However if your one of the few who love to play the market then you are arguably going to have more fun in Eve than you could in any other mmo.
Market depth aside the game is very boring. I don't get the sense of flying a space ship and I don't feel that combat is more than a mouse click and auto fire repetition and there are no cool experiences like flying into a death star and destroying the power core. What I get is a dry game play mechanic and frustration when navigating around objects. If they would add interesting multi player pve and change the ship control mechanic to give you more precise and enjoyable control of your ship it would help. If they would add the ability to use objects for cover that would help as well.
I remember going to different places in WoW and thinking wow that looks cool like Blackwing Spire (or whatever it's called http://wowvault.ign.com/fms/Image.php?id=718 ). Also in WoW the fights are interesting as well and that helped the fun.
Darkfall has a great combat mechanic (twitch) and it does allow for a better game play versatility. However Darkfall has a flawed view on how a game should be policed. Darfall has a Morrowind skill system and yet tries to punish people for swimming while they are afk (so that they can lvl faster). Instead I think they should employ Eve's skill system and solve the problem. If darfall had Eve's skill system and market and WoW's interesting pve fights it would easily be the best value for fun.
One thing to note is that if Darkfall had Eve's skill system then harvesting would be avoidable as harvesting is easily the most repetitive boring thing in the game. Harvesting however is one of the best ways to get some of your combat relevant stats up.
Does a boring mechanic need to be in an mmo? I challenge developers to make an mmo without boring mechanics in them. Or at least give us a Puzzle Quest Galatrix style mini game mechanic to add a bit of skill to harvesting resources. Enough with the dice rolls already!!!!
As a side note I commend Eve on their player structure system which has utility and a measure of customization and plenty of placement freedom.