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Has SWTOR serious issues? (mature discussion pls)
Elikal
Member UncommonPosts: 7,912
Ok first, let's not fall into doomsaying. In the case of SWTOR I am still on the fence. Maybe its a killer game, maybe the game will be killed. Who can say. But as of recent, there are a few concerns. Some of them old, some of them new. I won't chime into the space debate, since I am not so interested in space anyway, and there are a plethora of threads already.
When TOR was announced, many of us were excited, myself included. Then was this LONG period of time where the only info we repeatedly got was, TOR will be about story. Back then most of us wondered, why Bioware would only discuss that for such a long time, and some wondered if the rest of the game was so unusual that they had reason to hide it.
Today to me it seems to be the case. Whatever you may think about the features announced, IMO every single one of the bears a great risk. Let me highlight some.
1) STORY
We know TOR will feature story as a main element. And while the storytelling in a single player game like KOTOR or ME or DA was surely cool, I can not yet imagine at ALL, how this is really gonna work in a MMO. I mean, yes having stories as climax and addition as in LOTRO sure is a cool thing. But being in a story all the time? Even if you HAVE decisions, even if you have some open world to explore: so far I have seen nothing that reminds me of what I connect with the idea of a MMORPG. Yes they SAY it is there, but in what form? The space combat is an example. They said space combat is there, and everyone was happy. Then we read it is in the form of a railroad shooter minigame, and everyone is sad panda. I guess it is more the symbolic value limiting player to rails, which is the greatest fear of the game overall, that story will put the player on a rail just the same in the planetary setting. I mean, I am not friend of extremes like theme park VS sandbox. I like a mix of both. And as much as I love story... even I often feel like clicking away the dialogue and go to the section which just tells me what to do. So I wonder if all the voiceover isn't just a waste of money? How many will REALLY follow all the dialogue? I guess that is the $150 million question. In the end there is the risk the players feel way to confined and will skip 90% of the dialogue anyway.
2) LIMITATION OF RACES AND CLASSES
I love many classes and races. It's why I liked games like Vanguard or SWG, or even EQ2. The announcement that EQ3 will have fewer classes has thus quite let me down. And while TOR still hasn't announced anything final about races, if you look at the screenshots you don't see any really un-human alien as player. And it makes one wonder. Then we read how apparently many races are restricted to classes. And that 4 classes per faction are not really much, again due to story and voiceover, which just limits what you can add. I don't like that one bit. I always loved to have many diverse races and many classes you can mix into, and that voiceover just limits that.
3) GRAPHICS
I have never really come to peace with this stylized realism, and good grief, I have NO IDEA why they came up with this idea. I mean, take a look at screenshots and videos of the competition of 2011. Look at the graphics of games like FF14, Arch Age, TERA anf Rift, and all the other MMOs supposed to be launched in 2011. Just take a shot from Arche Age or Rift and hold a screenshot from TOR next to it, and tell me you are NOT disappointed with TOR. I mean, yes we all say gameplay is most important and I fully agree with that. But good gameplay does not exclude good visuals, and I just am a very visual person. Now it's far from me to say TOR looks bad. But I find the choice of stylized realism a bad one. People just WILL compare the visuals, and many will shun TOR when they see what visuals other MMOs have to offer.
4) CRAFTING & PLAYER CITIES
We haven't heard much about crafting, and what we hear doesn't really thrill me out of the boots. I admit, I am no crafter. But I know what made SWG great was the full crafting. It just gave me he feeling to be a real world, to go to player shops in player cities, knowing all that was made by people! It was awesome. I know, they always say, what would Darth Vade craft. But heck, who was written all player WANT to be Darth Vader? Or Luke Skywalker? I just find it highly unfortunate that such a popular sphere of gaming is so much neglected when the Star Wars universe offers such great background for fun and extensive crafting. My bet is crafting is again just such a minigame like space. Something they add just so they can claim it is in it. Again, I fear voiceover took away way too many ressourced which would have been better spent otherwise.
5) SOCIAL PLAY
A topic we heard nothing about. But one angle is: all players are supposed to be heroic. There are no Uncle Owens. I wonder, why the heck not? I am damn sure there are a lot of gamers who would prefer to be Uncle Owen over being Darth Vader. At least some of the time. I said it already some time ago: when everyone is a hero, no one is heroic. When all is heroic, nothing is. Heroic is something in relation to not-heroic. While I love the idea to be more heroic than in the common MMOs, I fear being limited to being a hero is something that can be quite boring. It just implies a lack of freedom: the freedom to chose NOT to be an "iconic hero" all the time. The enitre easygoing and social part seems to be entirely left out. You follow you instanced stories, and where is the time and space to be just a normal someone? Why is one of the most popular part of the OTHER Star Wars MMO, the Entertainers, entirely left out? There are so many chances left out, I wonder why. Why can't TOR be heroic AND normal?
These are just some highlights. I am sure some differ in some questions... but I am not all too sure the calculation of Bioware/EA will succed. I don't expect TOR to totally fail, but some of their core decisions are very risky and entirely questionable. It all seems to be very streamlined towards being the hero of some preset story, and that's it. Everything else seems just to be added as a figleaf minigame, just to claim to have it. I do have my doubts this calculation will pay off, especially in the long run. You just can't make so much preset story as to compare the time people can spent in a game of freedom, by themselves. I just don't see that. Ultimately the most negative scenario is that people will play TOR half a year, then they have seen all stories the want and then leave to the next new thing. Like with so many half baked MMOs before.
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Comments
I was allready looking at Rift, GW2 and Telara before knowing anything about SWTOR ... and until today I did not hear anythying about SWTOR that strayed my attention away from those 3 games.
I am not at all excited with all the news we're hearing, I can honestly say I never will be.
What I'm trying to say is ... I don't care about this game because it has nothing to show for it (what I'm interested in) and hence it won't disappoint me.
And I do feel a big disappointment coming on for a lot of people ... unless they really strike a homerun, but this means we are interpreting all the info we're getting in the wrong way .... doubtfull.
I agree I haven't been too excited for this title either, all my interest has been in GW2 and FFXIV. The combat in this game looks blasé and uninspired, whereas the combat in both GW2 and FFXIV looks to be unique, FF being the more strategic of the two. I actually don't mind the graphics for this game, I think they look really interesting; the games style was originally going to be that of the Clone Wars series on cartoon network, so really skinny legged people with anime eyes, so at least they didn't go with that. Player cities are not going to happen like they did in SWG, that's a given. The sad thing is crafting and space are going to be afterthoughts at the most, which is sad. This game seems like the focus was voice acting and everything else was an afterthought.
I've been following ToR since the start and i do agree with you on almost every point.
Its hard to judge the game before the launch... We might still get a nice surprise. But for 150 mil of a game so far it is really not that impresive. Each new information they reveal seems to be a miss in some direction. For example the reacent reces they shown. The sith?! C'mon... All are just cheaply reskinned humans and with the grapchics engine they use it just looks terrible. Not to mention haveing sith as a playable rce is a rape on the lore.
I can swollow the lame graphics... The crappy combat animations... But somehow i can't swollow the classes and the "race restrictions". It just doesn't feel right to me for exmple that all classes are clearly some form of soldier and the smuggler just doesn't fir that with his pew pew gun. And playing all the shooting classes (from the videos) seems sooo boring. Just stand there an pew pew at the enemies who too just.. stand there... pew pewing at you...
Every time they show any gameplay it just looks so boring and lame...The same as almost any other posty EQ fantasy mmo out there.
For that ammount of money giving us a voiceover and story that actually limits the gameplay being just a reskinned quest system is seems really... Well lame sad an pathetic.
But then they can have some aces up their sleves... And it might turn to be a good game at the launch. But as it is now Bioware just kills the hype each time they release some new info... Atleast IMHO and of all my friends.
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I too have been following TOR from the start, and have still yet to be impressed. However, it is bioware... and bioware typically knows what is best... I'll be honest when I first saw a video of Dragon Age: Origins I thought to myself, "What a load of shit" - but that didn't stop me from buying it what with me being a fan of Baldurs Gate.
The fact of the matter is, they couldn't be working harder to turn me OFF of the:
* Storyline component, So if my Sith Warrior kills a ship captain, he is dead right? But if another Sith Warrior let's him live... he is alive? Come on... Why even have that kind of choice if it is going to ruin immersion?
* ALL their meta game content including Ship Owning, Armor Collecting, Space Combat and Partner Collecting.
* Their choppy combat system. People keep screaming, "It's only beta!" but man, never has a game in development a year before release used such an ancient toolset then changed up before midnight launch.
But even though I have all these major gripes I can't help but feel like this is going to be a big one. I don't know why, maybe it's because the only time I've ever felt like this in the past was with WoW...
People think it's fun to pretend your a monster. Me I spend my life pretending I'm not. - Dexter Morgan
1, It seems from what they have said that all the quests will be story driven in a way that brings the npc's alive. in an mmo without voice acting you are still "in" a story if you are doing quests. It's just that most people don't bother to read them. The story part will not be an isse as players can still explore planets and get into shenanigans without having to click on dialogue choices. From what I gather the only difference is that instead of ignoring your chat box you now actually have to "play" the game.
2, I dont' find this an issue at all. Throwing in too many races and classes seems like the "everything but the kitchen sink" philosphy of design. In good design you actually don't throw in lots of stuff. the design incorporates a few ideas and then developes off of those ideas.
Whether people like it or not does not consitute an issue with the game.
3, The art design is fine. It might not be what many people like but there is no more wrong with it than the art design in WoW or the Art design in Spellborn. It is what it is. So again, whether you like it or not it doesn't constitue and issue with the game.
4, "What made SWG great was the crafting". Here is where people are really going wrong. This is not SWG. It's not trying for what SWG was trying for. It's not trying to be the same type of mmo as SWG but a different flavor of mmo. It doesn't matter what made SWG great.
5, Again "not SWG". This game is about x, y, and z. That is the design, how the game will be implemented. In this game you are a type of hero.
The problem is that people are looking at SWToR and saying "well, it's an mmo but I'm having problems figuring out how it's like SWG?" (or fill in your favorite mmo here) instead of looking at the game and saying "Well, it's an mmo that is incorporating these features so how will these features translate into an mmo, change it, stayng the same".
In Oblivion you are the hero. You are the hero of the fighter's guild quest, the mage's guild quest, thieve's guild quest, Assassin's guild quest and the main quest.
Or... you can forgo all the quests and just explore and not insert yourself into any quests at all. Same seems to go with SWToR from what we know though I don't know if one has to do the class quest. Still, that's the game they are making. I don't complain about how open the world is in prince of persia or whether the crafting is great. Because prince of persia is not about that.
SWToR is about taking lots of players and having them experience a Star Wars universe of some sort together. They are dong it in their own way. That in and of itself is risk taking and ground breaking. Most of the times I read what players want in a game I think they only want the same old games they played over 10 years ago but with better graphics and less grind.
People are mistaking the creation of an open world with the creation of a game. SWToR seems to be making a game (thought they do claim it's an open world of a sort). How open it will be only time will tell.
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Storyline Component: I'm a little unsure as to what you're getting at. Are you saying that being in a group where not everyone makes the same choice will ruin your immersion? Or are you saying that the fact that another different group can let the captain live, whereas you kill him, will ruin it? In the case of the former, I believe it comes down to "majority rules" in group encounters. In the case of the latter, well, this is part of the inherent issue with MMO's which you just have to live with. If YOU killed a captain then how are others supposed to do the quest if he is "dead" for everyone? To expect "one time only kills" for the majority of encounters is unreasonable in an MMO environment. The game is there for everyone to enjoy, not just a few who happen to kill mobs first.
The simple issue is that when OTHER players see an encounter, it has to be reset so that they can do it. However, it doesn't have to appear reset to YOU if you have already done it. The answer lies in utilising technology and methods of putting players in specifically tailored environments to suit their choices. One way is instancing, another is phasing. Both of which have been confirmed to be in SWTOR. At this moment we don't know to what extent phasing and instancing will be used to tailor the environment based on the quests at a player / group has.
Meta Game Content: Ship owning is like it is in Kotor, if you had other expectations then you weren't managing them correctly. People seem to be expecting SWTOR to have AT LAUNCH not only a polished land based game but ALSO the content of another games expansion as well. This kind of expectation is unrealistic.
Choppy combat system: Are you referring to choppiness and stuttering in graphics or maybe breaks between each swing? If it's the latter, thats the same at low levels for a lot of RPG's and MMO's. Remember that THOSE videos are showing low level combat. Not high level combat. And the cooldown between swings and casts at low level is indicative of the progression of characters in a lot of RPG's and MMO's. As you level up the combat gets more fluidic and faster paced. This is no different. Play Neverwinter Nights and you'll see that when you start out each swing takes what seems like an age.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I think that it is here where atleast I tend to disagree (the text in red). The main issue with such a massive investment on story element of an MMO leads one to question what remains if that is taken away. I am not entirely sure if this is what OP ment, but atleast for me that is the biggest concern. Certainly, in all MMOGs you can just explore and run around roleplaying, but what is the added value of doing that in a game where you can only do this exploration meaningfully via participation on heroic deeds (or vile deeds of heroic nature).
The game is built around the idea of levels, and though there is nothing wrong with that, it comes with a consequence that progress (whatever one considers progress) in game comes through either a) grinding experience yielding content or b) progressing in said story. As most would agree, grinding content ad nauseum hardly makes a glorified MMO experience. This leaves us with quests and in SW:ToR's case -- the story. Although the positive aspects of the story are repeated feverishly by virtually everyone, there are also negative aspects of it. The ones most often (and also to me most potent) mentioned are, first, that because the story is of such importance to their design idea it limits the scope of the gameplay. Second, it corners the players in with choices and finally it seems ill-fit for end-game progression.
There is no doubt that writing reasonable dialogue in such vast quantities takes time and effort. This is likely the main reason why they are limiting the number of classes in the game as every new class would require them to create storyline content from the first to last level. It is a problem that can be solved by time and additional resources and therefore is the least of the issues that come with story. The second one is, to me, the most haunting. If choices you make during the gameplay are significant (i.e. alter you character in a meaningul fashion) you might have to re-create your character just so that you can avoid the choices you later on consider wrong ones. If on the other hand these choices are lacking the significance then there is no real choice as all outcomes will be equally good. There is no happy medium for this element of story driven gameplay. And finally, how can they explain raid content (which they have said the game will have) in a story setting? The idea of killing the same villain again does not really bother in, say, WoW as you can consider it just another quest but if the purpose of the story element is to create immersion of living, breathing world it cannot have similar leeway as "traditional" MMOGs have.
The people looking for a tiny niche in gaming, and can never be satisfied by any game that appeals to more than 10 gamers post on forums.
The rest play games.
I think the game players are going to have fun with TOR. Those looking for the tiny niche, will continue to look.
[Mod Edit]
Or the players who are actually waiting for a game worth getting into. I'm playing some co-op shooters and stuff on Steam untill SW:TOR or FF launches.
Another regurgitated complaint thread from an SWG fan who will never be satisfied with a non-sandbox game...
It should be pretty obvious at this point that this game will not be what you want it to be. It is not a sandox... Bioware never intended it to be a crafter-heavy game or a moisture farmer simulator. This game is a story-driven action MMO and, as I have said many times, this is obviously not going to appeal to you SWG players...
You are looking in the wrong place for your perfect game and are barking up the wrong tree. Just because it is a Star Wars MMO you think it should automatically be like SWG!? Why would any company emulate that failure of a game? No amount of whining will change Bioware's direction and all I can say is thank God...
If you want to be Uncle Owen, SWG is still around people!
Thats right this is going to be another Themepark WOW clone for you themepark lovers, it will peak in 3 months and dwindle down to 200k users in under a year. Then you can join the ranks of other too big to fail Themeparks such as WAR, LOTR and AOC, Congratulations.
Don't be so childish, you sound like a kid guarding a candy bar.
How can this thread be taken seriously when even the title is wrong.
No it isn't actually. Coz the SWG they talk about was removed with the NGE....
As to SWToRs future, I think it will be successfull as Bioware has decided to cater to the mass crowd, and the Bioware crowd. Will I play it? Yes, I most likely will. Am I disappointed with what I know about it? Yes, I am, but that does not change the fact that I at least will try it out.
So has it issues? I think that depends on who you are asking. It will sell, but not s**tloads to the swg vets. And if you ask those (the swg vets, SWTOR has serious issues, many that are game breaking according to them)
Elikal, I read your post on the official forums. Some of the guys have already made their comments that make enough sense to me. These are opinion. Everyone will have a different opinion on all these things you have "concern" about. It's just how it's going to be. I think I have a complete retrospec of your worries. I'm looking forward to these things. Think many people are. Still, the fat lady hasn't sang yet.
And the majority of Sandbox games have been soooo successful recently haven't they?
Seriously, that's a tired old argument Failsun. The funny thing is, the fact that these devs produce themepark games rather than sandbox ones simply proves the fact that they consider the themepark design to have more merit than the typical sandbox design. And why is that I wonder? Because whilst certain themepark games maybe more restrictive than Sandbox design games, at least the themepark games give more people what they want.
So, let me counter your typical "themeparks are evil / all themepark games are WoW Clones and therefore failures" argument with this question:
How many AAA SANDBOX games are there that launched AFTER WoW and considered by the Western MMO community as being popular right now?
Fallen Earth, Mortal Online and Darkfall aren't exactly rolling in subs are they? Eve was released way before WoW so that doesn't count and is as much an anomaly as WoW is. FE, MO and Darkfall in all probability have the same if not less populations than the so-called "failed" themepark games that you so love to hate.
So please, drop the "all themepark games are WoW clones and therefore are dooooooomed" self righteous speeches. If YOU can think of a sandbox MMO design that is guaranteed to attract the level of audiences found in the better themepark games, then by all means go for it and come back in 5 years to tell us how popular it is.
Its not the MMO industry's fault if you are wanting a game that is considered by many developers as being too financially risky in this economic climate. Don't like the games? Fine, don't play them and certainly don't just drop into threads to troll.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Tarka:1
Faelsun:0
Actually the SWG they talk about IS still around. Google is your friend...
The game may have issues, but I haven't played any games without issues. I am at least going to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt after years of never letting me down. I am a fan of both themeparks and sandbox games if they are done well... and I have faith that Bioware will do this game well. I may be wrong, but that's my stance on it.
As for TOR not getting the SWG vets - I seriously doubt this is at all an issue for Bioware/LucasArts/EA. The SWG vets make up such a small niche sub-group fo the MMO playerbase and most developers frankly don't care about them. I know I wouldn't.... I mean this is a group that does nothing but whine about everything and is apparently unhappy no matter what they get. I honestly don't think any game will make the SWG whiners happy at this point... Nothing will ever measure up to their memory of that game... no matter how foggy and erroneous it may be.
Why do some ppl still persist in talking about sandbox MMO's in relation to SW:TOR? It was clear from the beginning that SW:TOR wouldnt be a sandbox MMO. Give it a rest already.
Besides, any MMO could do WITHOUT the grunty vets from SWG vet refuge section.
From what I recall, Pre-CU was far from perfection in terms of an MMO in my opinion. I'm willing to bet that IF SOE decided to launch a "classic SWG" server, it wouldn't be incredibly popular simply because peoples tastes and expectations change over the years. For instance, people don't expect mobs to be able to shoot through walls like they STILL can in SWG.
When I played it, that's when I came to the conclusion that "Sandbox" was synomynous with "lazy assed devs who expect players to make ALL their own fun, and implement features poorly". Of course, that's a personal opinion. But to this date, I've yet to witness a sandbox game that doesn't echo that sentiment. That goes for Eve too. Whilst Eve does some things quite well (crafting / economic synergy), it also does some things VERY badly.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
/agree with OP
As soon as people realize this will be Star Wowz instead of SWG, the faster they can let it go. I knew from seeing the graphics and how it was going to be heavy on cinematics/storyline that I wasn't going to buy the game. This is going to be nothing more than another WoW clone, perhaps a little more polished than STO.
There will be plenty of people purchasing this garbage, I just won't be one of them.
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Because nowadays MMOs seem to be broken down into these 2 sub-genres and are blindly defended by both camps as being the best. Look, some of the posters here think that since TOR isn't being created as a Sandbox-style game or the "spiritual successor" to SWG, it'll fail. You're right about giving it a rest though, it's truly getting old.
SWG-NGE is still around... the SWG that most SWG players loved however, is not.
SWTOR is shaping up to be nothing more than WoW in space, and most people who want to play a game like WoW, are already playing WoW.
I'm excited. Risks are good. Every other game in the last 5 years has NOT taken risks but tried to mimic, and not very well, the BIG one and failed miserably.
Having concerns though, about a game in Beta and half a year from release, is a bit unnecessary. Too much can change between now and launch, no sense getting overly excited and/or disappointed just yet.
A post about a game which is almost 1 year away from release debating if it has issues...
Okay, i give up.