SWG-NGE is still around... the SWG that most SWG players loved however, is not.
SWTOR is shaping up to be nothing more than WoW in space, and most people who want to play a game like WoW, are already playing WoW.
That long lost SWG is still around in some form... Google is your friend.
And as for the WoW clone argument... good lord. So now every game that is quest driven is a WoW clone right? So only sandbox games are worthwhile and all others are WoW clones... that pretty much sums up the argument of the SWG vets I think. Not everything is so black and white.
SW:TOR may have issues and what game doesn't...but I'll decide what those are when I have full information and reliable hands on experience either my own or someone's who's opinion I find gels with mine most times.Unless of course I'm in th ebeta in which case I would be posting my issues in the appropriate place.
However we cna definitely say those who waste so much time posting their fearmongering/hatred or rose colored glasses filled opinion about this and other gmaes that they've never played or have anywher enear enough information to make any kind of valid decision,well those beople definitely have issues.
SWG-NGE is still around... the SWG that most SWG players loved however, is not.
SWTOR is shaping up to be nothing more than WoW in space, and most people who want to play a game like WoW, are already playing WoW.
With all due respect, if you insist on distilling a game by ignoring its differences just so you can refer to it as a "clone" of another game then you will never be happy. Now, besides having a foundation that is defined by a particular genre (themepark), TOR has no connection with WoW whatsoever. And whilst WoW maybe a themepark game (because it too has a foundation that is defined by a genre), that doesn't mean that all themepark games are all copies of WoW. To think otherwise is a ridiculous argument indeed.
Maybe your lack of happiness isn't a problem with the industry, but with your own myopia.
As soon as people realize this will be Star Wowz instead of SWG, the faster they can let it go. I knew from seeing the graphics and how it was going to be heavy on cinematics/storyline that I wasn't going to buy the game. This is going to be nothing more than another WoW clone, perhaps a little more polished than STO.
There will be plenty of people purchasing this garbage, I just won't be one of them.
Hm... You mean Pre-CU, CU or NGE SWG?
Pre-CU: Around 300k subs.
CU: Around 250k subs.
NGE: 100k down to around maybe 15k now.
Compared to WoW, that's in the millions. I kind of figure there are multiple reasons why WoW is popular. One of them, like I've said before is the utter polish it possesses, something SOE started to do around the CU version of ToOW but we know they threw that down the drain. Now, to be honest... The Pre-CU version was the most garbage out of the two versions of the Pre-NGE era. Sure, we had fun, but we have to take a look back and take it for what it really was.
I think that you are judging the game a little too soon. Having not experienced it first hand, if you even had a flicker of interest, you would've at least wished to feel how the game plays and get a gist of if it were something that was worth sticking around. Calling something garbage right off the bat says you were never interested in any of it. Therefor, why are you here?
Saying all that, I know subs don't equal a good game. I even understand that it's in the pop culture area, however, I enjoy more polished games after having played WoW. Blizzard kind of messed me up...lol. Anyway, if a game is fun, categories don't really mean a thing. Labels shouldn't have a meaning if it's fun.
All I can say about the graphics and the other games coming out is that we shall see just how playable those games are on your standard rig. Remember Vangaurd? Age of Conan? Visually stunning games, but they ran like cold molasses on anything but the highest end computers. I think Bioware is being very smart knowing that we have been in an ecconomic recession and most people haven't been able to upgrade their computers in a while.
This is just too funny. Even though it was known from the start that SW:TOR wasnt going to be like SWG, ppl still keep making these threads.
Apparently ranting for years about SWG NGE isnt enough. Now its the turn of SW:TOR to be flamed to oblivion by disgruntled SWG vets. Some in this thread simply want SW:TOR to fail out of spite
Tarka, thank you for this information on "utilising technology"
(The simple issue is that when OTHER players see an encounter, it has to be reset so that they can do it. However, it doesn't have to appear reset to YOU if you have already done it. The answer lies in utilising technology and methods of putting players in specifically tailored environments to suit their choices. One way is instancing, another is phasing. Both of which have been confirmed to be in SWTOR. At this moment we don't know to what extent phasing and instancing will be used to tailor the environment based on the quests at a player / group has.)
That info you post up should of change the way this thread was going because it just help me understand how the hell Bioware was going to do this. This way is tricky and smart, what happens on me screen will appear different to my team mate but.... ahhhhh I am still abit puzzle on this method but this info really did clear me up a little.
All I can say about the graphics and the other games coming out is that we shall see just how playable those games are on your standard rig. Remember Vangaurd? Age of Conan? Visually stunning games, but they ran like cold molasses on anything but the highest end computers. I think Bioware is being very smart knowing that we have been in an ecconomic recession and most people haven't been able to upgrade their computers in a while.
I certainly do remember those! I also remember the issues with the launch of EQ2 as well as others.
One common factor that always seems to "rear its ugly head" is that games that focus on "realistic" graphics always seem to have performance issues. This is perhaps one of the reasons why Bioware chose "stylised" graphics AND perhaps is the very same argument why SOE are choosing "stylised" graphics for the next Everquest incarnation.
There are certain merits with using "stylisation". For one thing, there's less demand on texturing, for another there is less need for focus on "realism" in terms of getting facial expressions and such like just right. Which means that the development time that would be normally spent on enhancing realism can be spent elsewhere prior to launch, in areas such as dungeon development, itemisation, level and character progression, etc, etc.
Ceridith- NGE did change the game in a very negative way, I agree, but even vanilla SWG had blatant problems (as do many other MMOs). Severely imbalanced classes, a ton of bugs (WAR's release comes to mind), and very (imo) bland adventuring. All this compounds to make a frustrating PvE and PvP experience. SWG wasn't perfect as many claim it to be, and I'm glad TOR isn't being made with SWG in mind.
That said, I'm also not very happy that TOR seems to be ripping off what games like WoW and WAR have already done. I figured Bioware would at least try to innovate something else than how quests are given/player choices. But the truth is, the Bioware making TOR is not the same Bioware many of us are used to. It's a newer studio and this is their first game in that studio.
Locke- I don't think any "risk" has gone into this game yet, at least not from what I've seen. They don't seem to be changing systems around or how they work. The only game at the moment that comes to mind for "risk" is GW2. They're at least innovating multiple gameplay systems, but it's always a "wait & see".
Ok first, let's not fall into doomsaying. In the case of SWTOR I am still on the fence. Maybe its a killer game, maybe the game will be killed. Who can say. But as of recent, there are a few concerns. Some of them old, some of them new. I won't chime into the space debate, since I am not so interested in space anyway, and there are a plethora of threads already.
When TOR was announced, many of us were excited, myself included. Then was this LONG period of time where the only info we repeatedly got was, TOR will be about story. Back then most of us wondered, why Bioware would only discuss that for such a long time, and some wondered if the rest of the game was so unusual that they had reason to hide it.
Today to me it seems to be the case. Whatever you may think about the features announced, IMO every single one of the bears a great risk. Let me highlight some.
1) STORY
We know TOR will feature story as a main element. And while the storytelling in a single player game like KOTOR or ME or DA was surely cool, I can not yet imagine at ALL, how this is really gonna work in a MMO. I mean, yes having stories as climax and addition as in LOTRO sure is a cool thing. But being in a story all the time? Even if you HAVE decisions, even if you have some open world to explore: so far I have seen nothing that reminds me of what I connect with the idea of a MMORPG. Yes they SAY it is there, but in what form? The space combat is an example. They said space combat is there, and everyone was happy. Then we read it is in the form of a railroad shooter minigame, and everyone is sad panda. I guess it is more the symbolic value limiting player to rails, which is the greatest fear of the game overall, that story will put the player on a rail just the same in the planetary setting. I mean, I am not friend of extremes like theme park VS sandbox. I like a mix of both. And as much as I love story... even I often feel like clicking away the dialogue and go to the section which just tells me what to do. So I wonder if all the voiceover isn't just a waste of money? How many will REALLY follow all the dialogue? I guess that is the $150 million question. In the end there is the risk the players feel way to confined and will skip 90% of the dialogue anyway.
You're acting as if the story in SWTOR will be the be-all and end-all of the game. I don't think this will be the case at all. Most MMOs rely on quests to move the character forward, and that means at least some sort of rudimentary storyline. Bioware will simply be making this part of the game bigger and better than ever before, and why not? Storylines are what sets their games apart from the competitors. It doesn't mean they'll restrict which planets you can go to or what items you can craft because of the storyline.
2) LIMITATION OF RACES AND CLASSES
I love many classes and races. It's why I liked games like Vanguard or SWG, or even EQ2. The announcement that EQ3 will have fewer classes has thus quite let me down. And while TOR still hasn't announced anything final about races, if you look at the screenshots you don't see any really un-human alien as player. And it makes one wonder. Then we read how apparently many races are restricted to classes. And that 4 classes per faction are not really much, again due to story and voiceover, which just limits what you can add. I don't like that one bit. I always loved to have many diverse races and many classes you can mix into, and that voiceover just limits that.
They've said nowhere that all races will be restriced to certain classes. I'm guessing Twi'lek and humans will have access to almost every class - if not every class. Also, show me a game that has any unhuman looking players on the market. Show me a KOTOR game that allowed your main character to be an unhuman race. I have no idea why people are making a big deal over this one.
3) GRAPHICS
I have never really come to peace with this stylized realism, and good grief, I have NO IDEA why they came up with this idea. I mean, take a look at screenshots and videos of the competition of 2011. Look at the graphics of games like FF14, Arch Age, TERA anf Rift, and all the other MMOs supposed to be launched in 2011. Just take a shot from Arche Age or Rift and hold a screenshot from TOR next to it, and tell me you are NOT disappointed with TOR. I mean, yes we all say gameplay is most important and I fully agree with that. But good gameplay does not exclude good visuals, and I just am a very visual person. Now it's far from me to say TOR looks bad. But I find the choice of stylized realism a bad one. People just WILL compare the visuals, and many will shun TOR when they see what visuals other MMOs have to offer.
They chose the graphical direction they did for one major reason: the maximum number of players with the maximum number of different machines. It's a good move for an MMO maker hoping to capture a huge amount of the market. I'd like to see a comparison chart of how many older machines, and how old, can run an MMO. I bet Rift can run on less PCs than SWTOR. Another positive about graphics that aren't top of the line is that they can spend more time making more art assests instead of spending lots of time making the ones they work on high graphics. Instead of spening 12 hours on that speeder, they can spend 6 and they can design another thing in the six hours they've saved. This means that they are more likely to design lots of cities, or giant planetary areas that people crave.
4) CRAFTING & PLAYER CITIES
We haven't heard much about crafting, and what we hear doesn't really thrill me out of the boots. I admit, I am no crafter. But I know what made SWG great was the full crafting. It just gave me he feeling to be a real world, to go to player shops in player cities, knowing all that was made by people! It was awesome. I know, they always say, what would Darth Vade craft. But heck, who was written all player WANT to be Darth Vader? Or Luke Skywalker? I just find it highly unfortunate that such a popular sphere of gaming is so much neglected when the Star Wars universe offers such great background for fun and extensive crafting. My bet is crafting is again just such a minigame like space. Something they add just so they can claim it is in it. Again, I fear voiceover took away way too many ressourced which would have been better spent otherwise.
This game is not Star Wars Galaxies. It was never intended to be Star Wars Galaxies. It never will be Star Wars Galaxies. Just drop the comparisons now and stop getting your hopes up.
Also, Bioware pretty much wrote a blank cheque for the development of this game. I seriously, seriously doubt voice acting took budget away from any other part of the game. This game will be the most expensive MMORPG ever made, they weren't exactly trying to stay within a set budget when they made it.
5) SOCIAL PLAY
A topic we heard nothing about. But one angle is: all players are supposed to be heroic. There are no Uncle Owens. I wonder, why the heck not? I am damn sure there are a lot of gamers who would prefer to be Uncle Owen over being Darth Vader. At least some of the time. I said it already some time ago: when everyone is a hero, no one is heroic. When all is heroic, nothing is. Heroic is something in relation to not-heroic. While I love the idea to be more heroic than in the common MMOs, I fear being limited to being a hero is something that can be quite boring. It just implies a lack of freedom: the freedom to chose NOT to be an "iconic hero" all the time. The enitre easygoing and social part seems to be entirely left out. You follow you instanced stories, and where is the time and space to be just a normal someone? Why is one of the most popular part of the OTHER Star Wars MMO, the Entertainers, entirely left out? There are so many chances left out, I wonder why. Why can't TOR be heroic AND normal?
This game is not Star Wars Galaxies. It was never intended to be Star Wars Galaxies. It never will be Star Wars Galaxies.
These are just some highlights. I am sure some differ in some questions... but I am not all too sure the calculation of Bioware/EA will succed. I don't expect TOR to totally fail, but some of their core decisions are very risky and entirely questionable. It all seems to be very streamlined towards being the hero of some preset story, and that's it. Everything else seems just to be added as a figleaf minigame, just to claim to have it. I do have my doubts this calculation will pay off, especially in the long run. You just can't make so much preset story as to compare the time people can spent in a game of freedom, by themselves. I just don't see that. Ultimately the most negative scenario is that people will play TOR half a year, then they have seen all stories the want and then leave to the next new thing. Like with so many half baked MMOs before.
SWG-NGE is still around... the SWG that most SWG players loved however, is not.
SWTOR is shaping up to be nothing more than WoW in space, and most people who want to play a game like WoW, are already playing WoW.
That long lost SWG is still around in some form... Google is your friend.
And as for the WoW clone argument... good lord. So now every game that is quest driven is a WoW clone right? So only sandbox games are worthwhile and all others are WoW clones... that pretty much sums up the argument of the SWG vets I think. Not everything is so black and white.
That long lost SWG is not available in the incarnation of the original game, nor would it be for a long time.
And no, not just that the game is quest driven. The graphics stylization, the factions, the classes, the dumbed down "mini games" that are shadows of what could be fully implemented gameplay features... The game design as a whole is shaping up to be the same generic MMO formula that WoW is designed around.
I have a hard time believing that the game will be any different from the same quest grind to max level, and treadmill through the same instances over and over for gear that quickly becomes outdated every time there's a new content patch. Not to mentioned instanced and outright meaningless PvP that acts as nothing more than another gear grind treadmill.
First off, and we have to get this out of the way, it is not SWG. The only relationship to SWG is a couple of the devs and the Star Wars IP. They never set out to create SWG, SWG 2, SWG Reborn, whathaveyou. A few fans would love to see swg2 and who knows it may come, but never did bioware say that they were looking to replicate the swg experience .
1. Story - This is something no other mmo has pulled off at least with consistency and continuity. It is a throwback to old school role playing games where story was king. Bioware has always delivered in this regard so, make of it what you will. I will say that like most things, its a matter of personal opinion, some just want to get to the whos and whats to hell with the whys.
2. While 4 classes, 8 if you count the masteries, per side may seem light it isn't filled out with a bunch of fluff either. For example in WOW there is a ton of overlap (priest, shammies, droods, and palis for healing alone). Who's to say that expansions won't further flesh it out?
3. Matter of opinion, nothing more. Some people think Picasso is great, others think he was a drug addled hack, either way it is just an opinion and like buttholes, everyone has one.
4. Player cities had a lot of drawbacks, in a game like this however it couldn't work. Again this isn't swg this is a game of its own.
5. Again you are seemingly too focused on wanting to play SWG not TOR. This is fine but to knock a game for not being another game is kinda fruitless. Its like complaining that a Honda Accord isn't a Lotus Esprit. If you want the honda, get the honda. if you want the lotus get the lotus.
You want a mature discussion, then you need to realize that what you feel to be serious issues are actually bonuses for other people. Thank freaking god there isnt going to be player cities all over the games landscape. It's awesome that they have a stylized vision for their graphics, last thing I want is some new half-assed attempt at photo realism that does nothing but push system requirements through the roof and adding nothing to the gameplay or the experience. I could go on but there is no point. Some of your musings like the whole little bit about the story playing out in 6 months time, well 200 hours per class, 1600 hours total to have seen all the storylines, sure you can go through that in 6 months without ever stepping foot outside the door. And since you make so many comparisons to SWG, within 6 months of SWG's launch the population dropped by what, half? A big open sand box without crap to do wears thin real quick, and as far as we know the planets in TOR are gonna be quite a bit larger than those of SWG and they have already stated that you can go off to visit whatever you see, you don't have to stick to the storyline at the expense of everythign else unless that is what you choose to do. Hell even WOW has more explorable space than SWG does.
While I understand you want a new SWG, its not going to help you to complain that TOR isn't swg. Either move on like most of the vets have or go play SWG if it is all that great, seriously.
As soon as people realize this will be Star Wowz instead of SWG, the faster they can let it go. I knew from seeing the graphics and how it was going to be heavy on cinematics/storyline that I wasn't going to buy the game. This is going to be nothing more than another WoW clone, perhaps a little more polished than STO.
There will be plenty of people purchasing this garbage, I just won't be one of them.
Hm... You mean Pre-CU, CU or NGE SWG?
Pre-CU: Around 300k subs.
CU: Around 250k subs.
NGE: 100k down to around maybe 15k now.
Compared to WoW, that's in the millions. I kind of figure there are multiple reasons why WoW is popular. One of them, like I've said before is the utter polish it possesses, something SOE started to do around the CU version of ToOW but we know they threw that down the drain. Now, to be honest... The Pre-CU version was the most garbage out of the two versions of the Pre-NGE era. Sure, we had fun, but we have to take a look back and take it for what it really was.
I think that you are judging the game a little too soon. Having not experienced it first hand, if you even had a flicker of interest, you would've at least wished to feel how the game plays and get a gist of if it were something that was worth sticking around. Calling something garbage right off the bat says you were never interested in any of it. Therefor, why are you here?
Saying all that, I know subs don't equal a good game. I even understand that it's in the pop culture area, however, I enjoy more polished games after having played WoW. Blizzard kind of messed me up...lol. Anyway, if a game is fun, categories don't really mean a thing. Labels shouldn't have a meaning if it's fun.
I'm talking about pre-cu, sorry.
I've seen many crappy MMOs that were hyped to the moon, just like SWTOR is, that looking back on I can now understand the tell-tale signs of what to look for. SWTOR has every indicator that it will be over-hyped junk.
The graphics look horrible, WoW-like. There will be little to no crafting, just a passing thought to say it's in game. Space combat that's not 3-D and on a string? Really? I think not. And as the OP stated, how much time and money was wasted on movie/cinematic crap.
Nah, I know what to look for in a bad game and this one has all of them. If you think it looks like a good game then be my guest, I'll not waste my coin on this garbage.
Just my two cents...that I'll be spending elsewhere.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
Tarka, thank you for this information on "utilising technology"
(The simple issue is that when OTHER players see an encounter, it has to be reset so that they can do it. However, it doesn't have to appear reset to YOU if you have already done it. The answer lies in utilising technology and methods of putting players in specifically tailored environments to suit their choices. One way is instancing, another is phasing. Both of which have been confirmed to be in SWTOR. At this moment we don't know to what extent phasing and instancing will be used to tailor the environment based on the quests at a player / group has.)
That info you post up should of change the way this thread was going because it just help me understand how the hell Bioware was going to do this. This way is tricky and smart, what happens on me screen will appear different to my team mate but.... ahhhhh I am still abit puzzle on this method but this info really did clear me up a little.
No problem. Don't get me wrong though, "phasing" and instancing has yet to completely address the issues associated with what each player in the same group will experience when the environment changes. Because this kind of technology brings it's own unique issues, which were apparent when Blizzard attempted to use "phasing" in WotLK.
How phasing works in WoW
In short, each player "sees" the environment in accordance with the quests they had done, how Blizzard accomplished this was to place the player seamlessly into a particular version of the environment that matched the quest. No loading screens, no gates of entry, just a clever use of misdirection to change the environment accordingly (e.g. use of in game event videos, cut scenes, etc). Unfortunately, whilst this works fine for an individual player, it had issues in a "group" situation....
The WotLK phasing and grouping issue
Lets take a hyperthetical scenario whereby a quest is in three parts:
1) Kill a named mob.
2) In-game cut scene plays.
3) Get access to the next stage of the quest from npc's you couldn't access before.
So a first player who had yet to kill the mob would be in a particular version of the environment (e.g. they can see the mob walking around and everything is as it always has been). However, another player who had done the second part would be placed in a DIFFERENT version of the environment and thus can see in game elements that the other cannot (e.g. a big dragon stood near were the npcs once were and bodies lying everywhere).
Blizzard realised that this caused an issue in that even though BOTH were still in the same group, they couldn't actually see each other until their progression in the particuilar quests were in synchronisation, this was because they were in effect in separate versions of the same environment. This caused some obvious confusion with players. Of course, this isn't an issue in a more "static" environment like instancing has. Apparently though, Blizzard have indicated that they are addressing these issues for the next expansion. Hopefully Bioware can do so too.
Until such an issue is addressed in the next expansion, players in WoW have to be a little "pro-active" when finding groups and ensure that each group member is on the same part of the quest so that they can all do it. Which in itself isn't a terrible thing.
Another regurgitated complaint thread from an SWG fan who will never be satisfied with a non-sandbox game...
It should be pretty obvious at this point that this game will not be what you want it to be. It is not a sandox... Bioware never intended it to be a crafter-heavy game or a moisture farmer simulator. This game is a story-driven action MMO and, as I have said many times, this is obviously not going to appeal to you SWG players...
You are looking in the wrong place for your perfect game and are barking up the wrong tree. Just because it is a Star Wars MMO you think it should automatically be like SWG!? Why would any company emulate that failure of a game? No amount of whining will change Bioware's direction and all I can say is thank God...
If you want to be Uncle Owen, SWG is still around people!
Thats right this is going to be another Themepark WOW clone for you themepark lovers, it will peak in 3 months and dwindle down to 200k users in under a year. Then you can join the ranks of other too big to fail Themeparks such as WAR, LOTR and AOC, Congratulations.
Don't be so childish, you sound like a kid guarding a candy bar.
Telling someone they have unrealistic expectations because this game will not be Star Wars Galaxies is a kid guarding a candy bar now?
Ceridith- NGE did change the game in a very negative way, I agree, but even vanilla SWG had blatant problems (as do many other MMOs). Severely imbalanced classes, a ton of bugs (WAR's release comes to mind), and very (imo) bland adventuring. All this compounds to make a frustrating PvE and PvP experience. SWG wasn't perfect as many claim it to be, and I'm glad TOR isn't being made with SWG in mind.
That said, I'm also not very happy that TOR seems to be ripping off what games like WoW and WAR have already done. I figured Bioware would at least try to innovate something else than how quests are given/player choices. But the truth is, the Bioware making TOR is not the same Bioware many of us are used to. It's a newer studio and this is their first game in that studio.
Locke- I don't think any "risk" has gone into this game yet, at least not from what I've seen. They don't seem to be changing systems around or how they work. The only game at the moment that comes to mind for "risk" is GW2. They're at least innovating multiple gameplay systems, but it's always a "wait & see".
I never claimed that the original SWG was perfect. I'm well aware that it had bugs and balance issues, I know I suffered at times from them. But those things can, and were being fixed before they drastically altered the game. When people are asking for a SWG back, they don't want it ridden with bugs and balance issues. What they want is the ideals and game philosophy of SWG back.
For many who played SWG, it's the fundamental concepts of the game that made SWG so much more superior to so many other MMOs that are out there now, even despite all of the bugs and balance issues. Too many MMOs are nothing more than instance ridden quest grinds that might as well be single player games with online lobbies, as player impact on the game and other players being pretty much non-existent. There's absolutely no reason for online communities in today's MMOs, which is why the MMO communities are so terrible today.
Another regurgitated complaint thread from an SWG fan who will never be satisfied with a non-sandbox game...
It should be pretty obvious at this point that this game will not be what you want it to be. It is not a sandox... Bioware never intended it to be a crafter-heavy game or a moisture farmer simulator. This game is a story-driven action MMO and, as I have said many times, this is obviously not going to appeal to you SWG players...
You are looking in the wrong place for your perfect game and are barking up the wrong tree. Just because it is a Star Wars MMO you think it should automatically be like SWG!? Why would any company emulate that failure of a game? No amount of whining will change Bioware's direction and all I can say is thank God...
If you want to be Uncle Owen, SWG is still around people!
Thats right this is going to be another Themepark WOW clone for you themepark lovers, it will peak in 3 months and dwindle down to 200k users in under a year. Then you can join the ranks of other too big to fail Themeparks such as WAR, LOTR and AOC, Congratulations.
Don't be so childish, you sound like a kid guarding a candy bar.
Telling someone they have unrealistic expectations because this game will not be Star Wars Galaxies is a kid guarding a candy bar now?
No he has unrealisitic expectations if he thinks a WOW clone will fare any better than the Sandbox games he loves to hate.
Telling people that Sandboxs sux and to go home while every game thats copied WOW in 6+ years has keeled over and died a pathetic death is sort of hypocritical.
Ceridith- NGE did change the game in a very negative way, I agree, but even vanilla SWG had blatant problems (as do many other MMOs). Severely imbalanced classes, a ton of bugs (WAR's release comes to mind), and very (imo) bland adventuring. All this compounds to make a frustrating PvE and PvP experience. SWG wasn't perfect as many claim it to be, and I'm glad TOR isn't being made with SWG in mind.
That said, I'm also not very happy that TOR seems to be ripping off what games like WoW and WAR have already done. I figured Bioware would at least try to innovate something else than how quests are given/player choices. But the truth is, the Bioware making TOR is not the same Bioware many of us are used to. It's a newer studio and this is their first game in that studio.
Locke- I don't think any "risk" has gone into this game yet, at least not from what I've seen. They don't seem to be changing systems around or how they work. The only game at the moment that comes to mind for "risk" is GW2. They're at least innovating multiple gameplay systems, but it's always a "wait & see".
I never claimed that the original SWG was perfect. I'm well aware that it had bugs and balance issues, I know I suffered at times from them. But those things can, and were being fixed before they drastically altered the game. When people are asking for a SWG back, they don't want it ridden with bugs and balance issues. What they want is the ideals and game philosophy of SWG back.
For many who played SWG, it's the fundamental concepts of the game that made SWG so much more superior to so many other MMOs that are out there now, even despite all of the bugs and balance issues. Too many MMOs are nothing more than instance ridden quest grinds that might as well be single player games with online lobbies, as player impact on the game and other players being pretty much non-existent. There's absolutely no reason for online communities in today's MMOs, which is why the MMO communities are so terrible today.
On this I can appreciate your point. Even though I think Pre-CU was by and large awful, I am baffled as to why the "essence" of what SWG got right has never been transplanted into more recent MMO's.
By that I mean the crafting, housing, guildcities, open world pvp, large seamless environments. People have been yearning for these concepts in more recent MMO's and yet, MMO devs seem to shun them (aside from Vanguard whose own issues sadly overshadowed the similar concepts it tried to envelope).
Personally speaking, I'm surprised that the likes of AOC's devs have publically stated that they don't put much emphasis of crafting and how housing is something that they would love to put in but don't have the time for. STO, again has awful crafting. Even the 800lb gorilla that is WoW seems to shun it by and large. You would think that if ANY dev had the resources to do it, it would be Blizzard.
Sadly, SOE seem to own the only three titles that at least attempted to put a little depth on these kind of gameplay elements. And 2/3's of them are on their last legs.
Another regurgitated complaint thread from an SWG fan who will never be satisfied with a non-sandbox game...
It should be pretty obvious at this point that this game will not be what you want it to be. It is not a sandox... Bioware never intended it to be a crafter-heavy game or a moisture farmer simulator. This game is a story-driven action MMO and, as I have said many times, this is obviously not going to appeal to you SWG players...
You are looking in the wrong place for your perfect game and are barking up the wrong tree. Just because it is a Star Wars MMO you think it should automatically be like SWG!? Why would any company emulate that failure of a game? No amount of whining will change Bioware's direction and all I can say is thank God...
If you want to be Uncle Owen, SWG is still around people!
Thats right this is going to be another Themepark WOW clone for you themepark lovers, it will peak in 3 months and dwindle down to 200k users in under a year. Then you can join the ranks of other too big to fail Themeparks such as WAR, LOTR and AOC, Congratulations.
Don't be so childish, you sound like a kid guarding a candy bar.
Telling someone they have unrealistic expectations because this game will not be Star Wars Galaxies is a kid guarding a candy bar now?
No he has unrealisitic expectations if he things a WOW clone will fare any better than the Sandbox games he loves to hate.
Telling people that Sandboxs sux and to go home while every game thats copied WOW in 6+ years has keeled over and died a pathetic death is sort of hypocritical.
WoW-clone? In what way? WoW launched with a huge amount of polish. Very few MMOs launch with that degree of polish nowadays, so I would hope that polish-wise every MMO would try to be a WoW-clone.
Maybe you mean WoW-clone in the huge game world type of way? WoW blew people away because you could go from Booty Bay to Stratholme without seeing a single loading screen. This blew people away when WoW first came out because the trend had been (and still is) for loading screens separating zones. If a WoW-clone means a huge game-world with few (or no) loading screens instead of a Star Trek Online tiny shoebox style instanced game world with loading screens every five minutes, then I choose the WoW-clone.
By WoW-clone do you mean lore wise? I remember reading pages upon pages of background lore for WoW when it first came out. In a way, this detailed lore turned out to be a curse for Blizzard because it was glaringly obvious whenever they broke with lore. Most games nowadays don't even try to put the same level of detail into game-world lore that WoW attempted.
No he has unrealisitic expectations if he things a WOW clone will fare any better than the Sandbox games he loves to hate.
Telling people that Sandboxs sux and to go home while every game thats copied WOW in 6+ years has keeled over and died a pathetic death is sort of hypocritical.
Funny that many of the games that have 'died a pathetic death' in your words still have more subscriptions than most sandbox games... and I think it is far too early to simply rule it out as a WoW clone.
Still, you misunderstand me if you think I hate sandbox games. My favorite MMO of all time was UO. I also played SWG, Darkfall, EVE and some Mortal Online. I don't hate sandbox games... but I never really liked SWG. I found it to be rather boring. But my opinion of SWG is irrelevant... the point is the amount of whiner threads on this forum from disgruntled SWG vets is getting ridiculous and it has annoyed me and many others to no end. So if you wonder why I take an aggressive and sometimes insulting stance towards some of you... that's why. You just don't stop... you just keep whining and whining and I'm tired of it. I know many others are tired of it too. If you want to discuss THIS game, that's fine... but please stop comparing it to SWG. They are very very different games.
It seems clear that you guys hate the direction Bioware is taking with this SWTOR, so why don't you give up already and leave!? You aren't going to change this game no matter how hard you try. Your position is hopeless. So what's the point in continuing to complain exactly? What do you hope to accomplish?
Another regurgitated complaint thread from an SWG fan who will never be satisfied with a non-sandbox game...
It should be pretty obvious at this point that this game will not be what you want it to be. It is not a sandox... Bioware never intended it to be a crafter-heavy game or a moisture farmer simulator. This game is a story-driven action MMO and, as I have said many times, this is obviously not going to appeal to you SWG players...
You are looking in the wrong place for your perfect game and are barking up the wrong tree. Just because it is a Star Wars MMO you think it should automatically be like SWG!? Why would any company emulate that failure of a game? No amount of whining will change Bioware's direction and all I can say is thank God...
If you want to be Uncle Owen, SWG is still around people!
Thats right this is going to be another Themepark WOW clone for you themepark lovers, it will peak in 3 months and dwindle down to 200k users in under a year. Then you can join the ranks of other too big to fail Themeparks such as WAR, LOTR and AOC, Congratulations.
Don't be so childish, you sound like a kid guarding a candy bar.
Telling someone they have unrealistic expectations because this game will not be Star Wars Galaxies is a kid guarding a candy bar now?
No he has unrealisitic expectations if he things a WOW clone will fare any better than the Sandbox games he loves to hate.
Telling people that Sandboxs sux and to go home while every game thats copied WOW in 6+ years has keeled over and died a pathetic death is sort of hypocritical.
Why does it matter if ppl think sandbox suck? The course for SW:TOR is set.
No matter how much you want it SW:TOR fail out of spite, itll have a higher chance of succeeding in this form, then as some preCU SWG clone. Too few ppl want to play the '30min shuttle wait and decay' game.
Why does it matter if ppl think sandbox suck? The course for SW:TOR is set.
No matter how much you want it SW:TOR fail out of spite, itll have a higher chance of succeeding in this form, then as some preCU SWG clone. Too few ppl want to play the '30min shuttle wait and decay' game.
Aint that the truth. Whilst PreCU may have had some nice concepts, the game as a whole MMO sucked and was bleeding subs even BEFORE the NGE was announced. This wasn't purely because of WoW, it was because there was parts of the game that had major issues that weren't being addressed. But certain people have a tendency to overlook such problems because they prefer to look through "rose tinted glasses".
Some people have so much hatred for ANY MMO that uses a formula that they don't like, that they feel an incessant urge to attempt to "predict" the failure of the game even before it launches. Just so they can then take comfort IF other MMO's "fail". It really is quite pathetic.
As much as I would love to see a "hybrid" MMO take the best bits from themepark and sandbox games and put them into a game that I find appealing, that has yet to happen. Predicting the failure of an MMO just because it happens to differ with ones own expectations is ridiculous and immature.
No he has unrealisitic expectations if he things a WOW clone will fare any better than the Sandbox games he loves to hate.
Telling people that Sandboxs sux and to go home while every game thats copied WOW in 6+ years has keeled over and died a pathetic death is sort of hypocritical.
The only unrealistic expectation is coming from those who wish this game was some kind of sequel to SWG. Those who demand it to be and damn it to hell because it's not. A game is a sum of all of it's parts, not a sum of a few features that are there or not there. A few features that exist or do not exist within a game do not make or break it.
If a game is fun it doesn't matter if it's a sandbox or a thempark to most people, it's the fun part that matters.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Visual style is subjective. Also, let's think about things in a marketing sort of way. A lost of new Star Wars "products" are being released in a stylized realism sort of feel. Think of the movie Clone Wars. Think the new cartoon. Think pretty much any new SW toys coming out. They are matching the art direction of those products. And I would venture to think this is more of a licensing requirement more than anything else. If you Bioware wants to make a SW game, than Lucas wants it to adhere to the current look and feel of Star Wars. Stop arguing about these non-issues as the appreciation of art and style is completely subjective.
Just because a game is no the game you want it to be, then just don't play it. The game makers are making decisions that will benefit them the most, the way they think will appeal to the most people, to the target audience they are catering to. Sandbox is a lovely niche, but there's not much money in niche markets, especially in gaming.
Why does it matter if ppl think sandbox suck? The course for SW:TOR is set.
No matter how much you want it SW:TOR fail out of spite, itll have a higher chance of succeeding in this form, then as some preCU SWG clone. Too few ppl want to play the '30min shuttle wait and decay' game.
Aint that the truth. Whilst PreCU may have had some nice concepts, the game as a whole MMO sucked and was bleeding subs even BEFORE the NGE was announced. This wasn't purely because of WoW, it was because there was parts of the game that had major issues that weren't being addressed. But certain people have a tendency to overlook such problems because they prefer to look through "rose tinted glasses".
I don't want SWTOR to be like Pre-CU, or any form of SWG...So I'm with you there...I just want to say that upfront...
And I know I'm getting a little offtrack here, but this thing is just a pet peeve of mine...SWG Pre-CU had many issues no question...That's why the CU was implemented...But in time this whole "bleeding Subs" myth has taken on a life of it's own...A couple of Devs said it was explained to them that way by Folks way above their payscale and for some reason it's believed, even though these were the same Folks who gladly gave us the NGE because it was SO much fun to play!!!...The same Devs who admittedly did not like the CU and welcomed replacing it...But for whatever reason the "bleeding Subs" excuse has stuck...Well...I for one don't believe that crap for a second...And I'm not alone either...
I was there...I played through the whole thing...I'm sure some Folks were leaving, but I didn't know any of them...If anything My Guild was growing like crazy...I'll never believe SWG was bleeding Subs...I think they were just not growing to expectation and that led to the dumbest decision in MMO Gaming History...
Comments
That long lost SWG is still around in some form... Google is your friend.
And as for the WoW clone argument... good lord. So now every game that is quest driven is a WoW clone right? So only sandbox games are worthwhile and all others are WoW clones... that pretty much sums up the argument of the SWG vets I think. Not everything is so black and white.
SW:TOR may have issues and what game doesn't...but I'll decide what those are when I have full information and reliable hands on experience either my own or someone's who's opinion I find gels with mine most times.Unless of course I'm in th ebeta in which case I would be posting my issues in the appropriate place.
However we cna definitely say those who waste so much time posting their fearmongering/hatred or rose colored glasses filled opinion about this and other gmaes that they've never played or have anywher enear enough information to make any kind of valid decision,well those beople definitely have issues.
With all due respect, if you insist on distilling a game by ignoring its differences just so you can refer to it as a "clone" of another game then you will never be happy. Now, besides having a foundation that is defined by a particular genre (themepark), TOR has no connection with WoW whatsoever. And whilst WoW maybe a themepark game (because it too has a foundation that is defined by a genre), that doesn't mean that all themepark games are all copies of WoW. To think otherwise is a ridiculous argument indeed.
Maybe your lack of happiness isn't a problem with the industry, but with your own myopia.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Hm... You mean Pre-CU, CU or NGE SWG?
Pre-CU: Around 300k subs.
CU: Around 250k subs.
NGE: 100k down to around maybe 15k now.
Compared to WoW, that's in the millions. I kind of figure there are multiple reasons why WoW is popular. One of them, like I've said before is the utter polish it possesses, something SOE started to do around the CU version of ToOW but we know they threw that down the drain. Now, to be honest... The Pre-CU version was the most garbage out of the two versions of the Pre-NGE era. Sure, we had fun, but we have to take a look back and take it for what it really was.
I think that you are judging the game a little too soon. Having not experienced it first hand, if you even had a flicker of interest, you would've at least wished to feel how the game plays and get a gist of if it were something that was worth sticking around. Calling something garbage right off the bat says you were never interested in any of it. Therefor, why are you here?
Saying all that, I know subs don't equal a good game. I even understand that it's in the pop culture area, however, I enjoy more polished games after having played WoW. Blizzard kind of messed me up...lol. Anyway, if a game is fun, categories don't really mean a thing. Labels shouldn't have a meaning if it's fun.
All I can say about the graphics and the other games coming out is that we shall see just how playable those games are on your standard rig. Remember Vangaurd? Age of Conan? Visually stunning games, but they ran like cold molasses on anything but the highest end computers. I think Bioware is being very smart knowing that we have been in an ecconomic recession and most people haven't been able to upgrade their computers in a while.
This is just too funny. Even though it was known from the start that SW:TOR wasnt going to be like SWG, ppl still keep making these threads.
Apparently ranting for years about SWG NGE isnt enough. Now its the turn of SW:TOR to be flamed to oblivion by disgruntled SWG vets. Some in this thread simply want SW:TOR to fail out of spite
Tarka, thank you for this information on "utilising technology"
(The simple issue is that when OTHER players see an encounter, it has to be reset so that they can do it. However, it doesn't have to appear reset to YOU if you have already done it. The answer lies in utilising technology and methods of putting players in specifically tailored environments to suit their choices. One way is instancing, another is phasing. Both of which have been confirmed to be in SWTOR. At this moment we don't know to what extent phasing and instancing will be used to tailor the environment based on the quests at a player / group has.)
That info you post up should of change the way this thread was going because it just help me understand how the hell Bioware was going to do this. This way is tricky and smart, what happens on me screen will appear different to my team mate but.... ahhhhh I am still abit puzzle on this method but this info really did clear me up a little.
I certainly do remember those! I also remember the issues with the launch of EQ2 as well as others.
One common factor that always seems to "rear its ugly head" is that games that focus on "realistic" graphics always seem to have performance issues. This is perhaps one of the reasons why Bioware chose "stylised" graphics AND perhaps is the very same argument why SOE are choosing "stylised" graphics for the next Everquest incarnation.
There are certain merits with using "stylisation". For one thing, there's less demand on texturing, for another there is less need for focus on "realism" in terms of getting facial expressions and such like just right. Which means that the development time that would be normally spent on enhancing realism can be spent elsewhere prior to launch, in areas such as dungeon development, itemisation, level and character progression, etc, etc.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Ceridith- NGE did change the game in a very negative way, I agree, but even vanilla SWG had blatant problems (as do many other MMOs). Severely imbalanced classes, a ton of bugs (WAR's release comes to mind), and very (imo) bland adventuring. All this compounds to make a frustrating PvE and PvP experience. SWG wasn't perfect as many claim it to be, and I'm glad TOR isn't being made with SWG in mind.
That said, I'm also not very happy that TOR seems to be ripping off what games like WoW and WAR have already done. I figured Bioware would at least try to innovate something else than how quests are given/player choices. But the truth is, the Bioware making TOR is not the same Bioware many of us are used to. It's a newer studio and this is their first game in that studio.
Locke- I don't think any "risk" has gone into this game yet, at least not from what I've seen. They don't seem to be changing systems around or how they work. The only game at the moment that comes to mind for "risk" is GW2. They're at least innovating multiple gameplay systems, but it's always a "wait & see".
That long lost SWG is not available in the incarnation of the original game, nor would it be for a long time.
And no, not just that the game is quest driven. The graphics stylization, the factions, the classes, the dumbed down "mini games" that are shadows of what could be fully implemented gameplay features... The game design as a whole is shaping up to be the same generic MMO formula that WoW is designed around.
I have a hard time believing that the game will be any different from the same quest grind to max level, and treadmill through the same instances over and over for gear that quickly becomes outdated every time there's a new content patch. Not to mentioned instanced and outright meaningless PvP that acts as nothing more than another gear grind treadmill.
First off, and we have to get this out of the way, it is not SWG. The only relationship to SWG is a couple of the devs and the Star Wars IP. They never set out to create SWG, SWG 2, SWG Reborn, whathaveyou. A few fans would love to see swg2 and who knows it may come, but never did bioware say that they were looking to replicate the swg experience .
1. Story - This is something no other mmo has pulled off at least with consistency and continuity. It is a throwback to old school role playing games where story was king. Bioware has always delivered in this regard so, make of it what you will. I will say that like most things, its a matter of personal opinion, some just want to get to the whos and whats to hell with the whys.
2. While 4 classes, 8 if you count the masteries, per side may seem light it isn't filled out with a bunch of fluff either. For example in WOW there is a ton of overlap (priest, shammies, droods, and palis for healing alone). Who's to say that expansions won't further flesh it out?
3. Matter of opinion, nothing more. Some people think Picasso is great, others think he was a drug addled hack, either way it is just an opinion and like buttholes, everyone has one.
4. Player cities had a lot of drawbacks, in a game like this however it couldn't work. Again this isn't swg this is a game of its own.
5. Again you are seemingly too focused on wanting to play SWG not TOR. This is fine but to knock a game for not being another game is kinda fruitless. Its like complaining that a Honda Accord isn't a Lotus Esprit. If you want the honda, get the honda. if you want the lotus get the lotus.
You want a mature discussion, then you need to realize that what you feel to be serious issues are actually bonuses for other people. Thank freaking god there isnt going to be player cities all over the games landscape. It's awesome that they have a stylized vision for their graphics, last thing I want is some new half-assed attempt at photo realism that does nothing but push system requirements through the roof and adding nothing to the gameplay or the experience. I could go on but there is no point. Some of your musings like the whole little bit about the story playing out in 6 months time, well 200 hours per class, 1600 hours total to have seen all the storylines, sure you can go through that in 6 months without ever stepping foot outside the door. And since you make so many comparisons to SWG, within 6 months of SWG's launch the population dropped by what, half? A big open sand box without crap to do wears thin real quick, and as far as we know the planets in TOR are gonna be quite a bit larger than those of SWG and they have already stated that you can go off to visit whatever you see, you don't have to stick to the storyline at the expense of everythign else unless that is what you choose to do. Hell even WOW has more explorable space than SWG does.
While I understand you want a new SWG, its not going to help you to complain that TOR isn't swg. Either move on like most of the vets have or go play SWG if it is all that great, seriously.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
I'm talking about pre-cu, sorry.
I've seen many crappy MMOs that were hyped to the moon, just like SWTOR is, that looking back on I can now understand the tell-tale signs of what to look for. SWTOR has every indicator that it will be over-hyped junk.
The graphics look horrible, WoW-like. There will be little to no crafting, just a passing thought to say it's in game. Space combat that's not 3-D and on a string? Really? I think not. And as the OP stated, how much time and money was wasted on movie/cinematic crap.
Nah, I know what to look for in a bad game and this one has all of them. If you think it looks like a good game then be my guest, I'll not waste my coin on this garbage.
Just my two cents...that I'll be spending elsewhere.
"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky
No problem. Don't get me wrong though, "phasing" and instancing has yet to completely address the issues associated with what each player in the same group will experience when the environment changes. Because this kind of technology brings it's own unique issues, which were apparent when Blizzard attempted to use "phasing" in WotLK.
How phasing works in WoW
In short, each player "sees" the environment in accordance with the quests they had done, how Blizzard accomplished this was to place the player seamlessly into a particular version of the environment that matched the quest. No loading screens, no gates of entry, just a clever use of misdirection to change the environment accordingly (e.g. use of in game event videos, cut scenes, etc). Unfortunately, whilst this works fine for an individual player, it had issues in a "group" situation....
The WotLK phasing and grouping issue
Lets take a hyperthetical scenario whereby a quest is in three parts:
1) Kill a named mob.
2) In-game cut scene plays.
3) Get access to the next stage of the quest from npc's you couldn't access before.
So a first player who had yet to kill the mob would be in a particular version of the environment (e.g. they can see the mob walking around and everything is as it always has been). However, another player who had done the second part would be placed in a DIFFERENT version of the environment and thus can see in game elements that the other cannot (e.g. a big dragon stood near were the npcs once were and bodies lying everywhere).
Blizzard realised that this caused an issue in that even though BOTH were still in the same group, they couldn't actually see each other until their progression in the particuilar quests were in synchronisation, this was because they were in effect in separate versions of the same environment. This caused some obvious confusion with players. Of course, this isn't an issue in a more "static" environment like instancing has. Apparently though, Blizzard have indicated that they are addressing these issues for the next expansion. Hopefully Bioware can do so too.
Until such an issue is addressed in the next expansion, players in WoW have to be a little "pro-active" when finding groups and ensure that each group member is on the same part of the quest so that they can all do it. Which in itself isn't a terrible thing.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Telling someone they have unrealistic expectations because this game will not be Star Wars Galaxies is a kid guarding a candy bar now?
I never claimed that the original SWG was perfect. I'm well aware that it had bugs and balance issues, I know I suffered at times from them. But those things can, and were being fixed before they drastically altered the game. When people are asking for a SWG back, they don't want it ridden with bugs and balance issues. What they want is the ideals and game philosophy of SWG back.
For many who played SWG, it's the fundamental concepts of the game that made SWG so much more superior to so many other MMOs that are out there now, even despite all of the bugs and balance issues. Too many MMOs are nothing more than instance ridden quest grinds that might as well be single player games with online lobbies, as player impact on the game and other players being pretty much non-existent. There's absolutely no reason for online communities in today's MMOs, which is why the MMO communities are so terrible today.
No he has unrealisitic expectations if he thinks a WOW clone will fare any better than the Sandbox games he loves to hate.
Telling people that Sandboxs sux and to go home while every game thats copied WOW in 6+ years has keeled over and died a pathetic death is sort of hypocritical.
On this I can appreciate your point. Even though I think Pre-CU was by and large awful, I am baffled as to why the "essence" of what SWG got right has never been transplanted into more recent MMO's.
By that I mean the crafting, housing, guildcities, open world pvp, large seamless environments. People have been yearning for these concepts in more recent MMO's and yet, MMO devs seem to shun them (aside from Vanguard whose own issues sadly overshadowed the similar concepts it tried to envelope).
Personally speaking, I'm surprised that the likes of AOC's devs have publically stated that they don't put much emphasis of crafting and how housing is something that they would love to put in but don't have the time for. STO, again has awful crafting. Even the 800lb gorilla that is WoW seems to shun it by and large. You would think that if ANY dev had the resources to do it, it would be Blizzard.
Sadly, SOE seem to own the only three titles that at least attempted to put a little depth on these kind of gameplay elements. And 2/3's of them are on their last legs.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
WoW-clone? In what way? WoW launched with a huge amount of polish. Very few MMOs launch with that degree of polish nowadays, so I would hope that polish-wise every MMO would try to be a WoW-clone.
Maybe you mean WoW-clone in the huge game world type of way? WoW blew people away because you could go from Booty Bay to Stratholme without seeing a single loading screen. This blew people away when WoW first came out because the trend had been (and still is) for loading screens separating zones. If a WoW-clone means a huge game-world with few (or no) loading screens instead of a Star Trek Online tiny shoebox style instanced game world with loading screens every five minutes, then I choose the WoW-clone.
By WoW-clone do you mean lore wise? I remember reading pages upon pages of background lore for WoW when it first came out. In a way, this detailed lore turned out to be a curse for Blizzard because it was glaringly obvious whenever they broke with lore. Most games nowadays don't even try to put the same level of detail into game-world lore that WoW attempted.
Funny that many of the games that have 'died a pathetic death' in your words still have more subscriptions than most sandbox games... and I think it is far too early to simply rule it out as a WoW clone.
Still, you misunderstand me if you think I hate sandbox games. My favorite MMO of all time was UO. I also played SWG, Darkfall, EVE and some Mortal Online. I don't hate sandbox games... but I never really liked SWG. I found it to be rather boring. But my opinion of SWG is irrelevant... the point is the amount of whiner threads on this forum from disgruntled SWG vets is getting ridiculous and it has annoyed me and many others to no end. So if you wonder why I take an aggressive and sometimes insulting stance towards some of you... that's why. You just don't stop... you just keep whining and whining and I'm tired of it. I know many others are tired of it too. If you want to discuss THIS game, that's fine... but please stop comparing it to SWG. They are very very different games.
It seems clear that you guys hate the direction Bioware is taking with this SWTOR, so why don't you give up already and leave!? You aren't going to change this game no matter how hard you try. Your position is hopeless. So what's the point in continuing to complain exactly? What do you hope to accomplish?
Why does it matter if ppl think sandbox suck? The course for SW:TOR is set.
No matter how much you want it SW:TOR fail out of spite, itll have a higher chance of succeeding in this form, then as some preCU SWG clone. Too few ppl want to play the '30min shuttle wait and decay' game.
Aint that the truth. Whilst PreCU may have had some nice concepts, the game as a whole MMO sucked and was bleeding subs even BEFORE the NGE was announced. This wasn't purely because of WoW, it was because there was parts of the game that had major issues that weren't being addressed. But certain people have a tendency to overlook such problems because they prefer to look through "rose tinted glasses".
Some people have so much hatred for ANY MMO that uses a formula that they don't like, that they feel an incessant urge to attempt to "predict" the failure of the game even before it launches. Just so they can then take comfort IF other MMO's "fail". It really is quite pathetic.
As much as I would love to see a "hybrid" MMO take the best bits from themepark and sandbox games and put them into a game that I find appealing, that has yet to happen. Predicting the failure of an MMO just because it happens to differ with ones own expectations is ridiculous and immature.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
The only unrealistic expectation is coming from those who wish this game was some kind of sequel to SWG. Those who demand it to be and damn it to hell because it's not. A game is a sum of all of it's parts, not a sum of a few features that are there or not there. A few features that exist or do not exist within a game do not make or break it.
If a game is fun it doesn't matter if it's a sandbox or a thempark to most people, it's the fun part that matters.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Visual style is subjective. Also, let's think about things in a marketing sort of way. A lost of new Star Wars "products" are being released in a stylized realism sort of feel. Think of the movie Clone Wars. Think the new cartoon. Think pretty much any new SW toys coming out. They are matching the art direction of those products. And I would venture to think this is more of a licensing requirement more than anything else. If you Bioware wants to make a SW game, than Lucas wants it to adhere to the current look and feel of Star Wars. Stop arguing about these non-issues as the appreciation of art and style is completely subjective.
Just because a game is no the game you want it to be, then just don't play it. The game makers are making decisions that will benefit them the most, the way they think will appeal to the most people, to the target audience they are catering to. Sandbox is a lovely niche, but there's not much money in niche markets, especially in gaming.
I don't want SWTOR to be like Pre-CU, or any form of SWG...So I'm with you there...I just want to say that upfront...
And I know I'm getting a little offtrack here, but this thing is just a pet peeve of mine...SWG Pre-CU had many issues no question...That's why the CU was implemented...But in time this whole "bleeding Subs" myth has taken on a life of it's own...A couple of Devs said it was explained to them that way by Folks way above their payscale and for some reason it's believed, even though these were the same Folks who gladly gave us the NGE because it was SO much fun to play!!!...The same Devs who admittedly did not like the CU and welcomed replacing it...But for whatever reason the "bleeding Subs" excuse has stuck...Well...I for one don't believe that crap for a second...And I'm not alone either...
http://www.massively.com/2008/06/26/a-star-wars-galaxies-history-lesson-from-launch-to-the-nge-4
I was there...I played through the whole thing...I'm sure some Folks were leaving, but I didn't know any of them...If anything My Guild was growing like crazy...I'll never believe SWG was bleeding Subs...I think they were just not growing to expectation and that led to the dumbest decision in MMO Gaming History...
Just saying...