WAR40K Dark Millenium - Only Two Factions Confirmed

peacekraft

This saddens me.

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It would have been great if there could have been as many factions as there are races. Or atleast each race in the game at launch would be its own faction, maybe some alignment style arangement (think darkfall).

It would have been great to see Imperium of man players defending an attack from Orcs only for both races to be hit in the side from a surprise Chaos attack.

Oh the wasted possibilities.

Unicornicus

Originally posted by Werthe

Originally posted by quotheraving

Originally posted by Werthe

Originally posted by Unicornicus

This is the exact type of incredibly misinformed opinion I am talking about.. Hey mister NEVER, ever heard of the xeno hybris? look it up.

A small group in Inquisition that researches Alien technology ? What does that have to do with Imperium/Xenos alliance.

 

Ever heard of the black crusade? look it up....

Temporary truce =/= alliance.

look it up... ever heard of Apocalypse?

 

Uhm, yes and ?

What we know about this game's background so far.

On the very edge of the galaxy lies the Sargos Sector. For centuries it was rendered uninhabitable and isolated by volatile Warp Storms. Even now, deep within the sector the very fabric of reality is unraveling. Only the ancient Sentinel Devices hold the Warp at bay.



But the ravages of time and meddling of humanity have weakened the Sentinel Devices-and now, the battle for these lost worlds is at hand. Drawn to the conflict, the great races of the galaxy descend upon the Sargos Sector, seeking to preserve reality-or to tear it asunder.

 

If the sector is lost to the warp this will likely be a major catastrophy both for the imperial forces and the Eldar.

There's your mcGuffin right there. The Eldar and Imperial might be forced into an uneasy alliance in a desperate effort to prevent Chaos and the rampaging Ork hordes from destroying the Sentinel Devices (or in the case of the Orks, the troops acting as their guardians, which amounts to the same thing in the end) and dissolving the sector back into the warp.

A temporary cold alliance against a common foe in a time of great need and (if the storms close about the forces trapped there, with no hope of outside re-inforcements)... sounds fine to me.

As long as they don't get lazy and have Eldar in Space marine shrines or dancing on landraiders e.t.c. it can work.

The problem for me is not in the fact that Eldar and Imperium are fighting jointly against a common foe. The problem is in how wil this alliance be reflected in game. Can you , for example, imagine an Imperium/Eldar/Tau guild ? Or can you imagine an interracial (lulz) party clearing a dungeon ?

It's one thing to have Soviets and Americans fighting on the same side against Hitler. But the other is one when they fight  literally in the same unit or run around in each others camp.

Now this conern I TOTALLY understand and agree with. As I have said time and time again, the last, last LAST thing I want to see in this game is a BT marine manning the cannon on a wave serpent or a chaos marine hanging off the side of an ork war wagon.... That kind of stuff makes NO sense in the lore and I dont think that GW would get on board with it at all. If that happened, I would be the first in line for the haters ball, I really would. I just dont see it happening that way. I am cautious with my enthusiasm as we know so little, but I am optimistic that this wont be the case.

Now, for what it's worth I do think there will be some level of interaction between the races but I hope they tread lightly and use heat before bending on that lore. Nobody wants the eldar /dance on land raider scenario.

Werthe

Originally posted by Unicornicus

Originally posted by Werthe

Originally posted by Unicornicus

 Good googling. Its not just a group of the all powerful Inquisition who research alien technology, they also believe that the only way to insure mans survival is through the cooperation with select xenos.

So,  you say ''good googling'' and than send me to an internet website ???

That was not a temporary truce... it was a temporary alliance in the lore. 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Gethsemane

That depends on how you interpret alliance. The fact that you and your foe stopped attacking eachother and continued separately fighting with a common foe is hardly an alliance.

ever heard of Apocalypse? look it up... 

 

Uhm, yes and ? 

That ruleset allows you to have allied units on the table top (just like second edition 40k did) 

 

You can allways ally with any race in the tabletop, and you don't need Apocalypse for that. Last week i  played with my Witchhunters  on the same side with my Tyranid friend , against  Tau/Imperial guard . But that still doesn't count as fluff valid.

 

Edit: Oh, i didn't understood that by allies you meant other armies units incorporated in yours . But still Apocalypse is hardly a fluff reference. Its a fun set of rules that allow you to throw everything you got on the table.

Unicornicus

But they have included official fluff for the forces to align, both in fluff history and and fluff for the table top. There is an article in on the GW website that also contains that chart i linked which explains the fluff reasons each of the armies would have a reason to have an alliance. And again, there is plenty of precedent in the fluff to allow for alliances as well. 

 

And Id argue that apocalypse IS fluff. Its a ruleset that also offers fluff as to why these armies are fighting together. But Yes, I meant having allied units in your army, just like second edition.

The bottom line is that over the 25 years or so I have been involved with this hobby, I have noticed the fluff change both slightly and radically from year to year, its a flexible universe both for all out war and joining forces with one another.

 

let us not forget also that the entire Eye of Terror campaign, including the fluff, used an allaince system. This is back in 2003... want to know what the allainces were called?  Order versus Disorder. (destruction sounds cooler IMO) anyway, so yeah GW themselves made these allainces before any "2 faction" MMO had ever been released.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Eye_of_Terror_campaign

Here is a quote from the linked article that kind of shows GWs stance on these allainces and the other related fluff from the Eye of Terror.

"The campaign was hard fought, and senior Games Workshop executives have commented that the events of the campaign will set a cornerstone to the rich background of the Warhammer 40,000 universe for years to come."

 

Werthe

Originally posted by Unicornicus

But they have included official fluff for the forces to align, both in fluff history and and fluff for the table top. There is an article in on the GW website that also contains that chart i linked which explains the fluff reasons each of the armies would have a reason to have an alliance. And again, there is plenty of precedent in the fluff to allow for alliances as well. 

 

As i said, i find Imperium and Eldar fighting on the same side ( ''same side'' in the broadest possible meaning) possible, but the real issue here is how will this same faction thing work in the game.

 

Unicornicus

Originally posted by Werthe

Originally posted by Unicornicus

But they have included official fluff for the forces to align, both in fluff history and and fluff for the table top. There is an article in on the GW website that also contains that chart i linked which explains the fluff reasons each of the armies would have a reason to have an alliance. And again, there is plenty of precedent in the fluff to allow for alliances as well. 

 

As i said, i find Imperium and Eldar fighting on the same side ( ''same side'' in the broadest possible meaning) possible, but the real issue here is how will this same faction thing work in the game.

 

And it is this news that we have to look on before we make an informed decision about the game.

Unicornicus

Originally posted by quotheraving

Ok the interviewer is tired, but regarding lore and the respect for the same check this vid out...

 

It also covers the degree of similarity this game will have to wow, specially for all you, the developer said it was wo'ish, guys out there.

Man, that just reminded me of how long it has been since we have had even the slightest news on this game.

AtrusV

If the Emperor wouldn't have been trapped in the Golden Throne, He would kill all the GW and THQ's IP developers and their families for the glory of the Imperium (I don't mind to ally temporally with the traitorous Eldar, but I want the chance to shoot them in the head [also to the Taus])

StMichael

Considering all the other "traditional" mmo conventions being broken by Vigil to make this game, I'd be willing to give them some lee-way on what a faction entails and what sort of interactions can be expected between the "allied" races. An eldar farseer joining up with a small band of space marines to seal a warp-fissure isn't too big a stretch of the imagination, and that may be the types of things we can see in terms of instanced dungeon crawls.

Things I don't expect, or hope not to see? Giant friendly "towns" (which in 40k terms would more likely be things like an eldar strike cruiser or space marine battle barge) and mutual quest hubs that ultimately involve an eldar going to fetch an imperial relic or a human using the webway to strike a target behind enemy lines.

We'll have to wait and see what they plan on those fronts. After playing darksiders though, I'd say vigil has the talent to do right by me.

Unicornicus

Yeah StMichael, I can get behind that statement. I pretty much agree that mutual towns should be out of the question, but only time will tell what they do. But shoot, though many of these fanatic youngesters may not know, but warhammer lore has been bent back and forth so many times that in the mind of an old school guy like me, anything goes and I wouldnt be suprised at whatever they do. They just better realize that the more lore breaking they do, the more core audience they are missing out on. I totally understand why they are making the moves they are and support them provided they have a damn good explaination! But I am much more open minded than some.

 

Sunrock

How hard is it to understand that two factions in a RvR is allot less fun then 3+?

bingbongbros

this game is going to fail just as bad as the regular warhammer mmo mythic made.

 

2 factions = fail

Unicornicus

"fail" equals lame internet talk for "i think I know what Im talking about but wont provide any evidence other than.. "ummm its, like...fail dude."

 

and again, As I recall, Eye of Terror was a resounding success. Though I wouldnt expect random internet dudes to know what I was talking about.

 

 

How hard is it to understand that two factions in a RvR is allot less fun then 3+?

I played DAoC (my favorite MMO to date) and I will say that 3 factions didnt make DAoC more fun. It was the only real pvp choice at the time and that's what made it fun. The only other game to even come close afterwards was WAR and WAR was sub par for many reasons, mostly that it was rushed out, under developed, and 1 dimensional to say the least. there hasnt been a game out that got PvP right much less 2 or 3 faction pvp so to say that 2 is more fun than three really means nothing since its conjecture at the very best.

StMichael

It's really difficult to say with any certainty what exactly makes an MMO truly great or a spectacular wreck. To date, I've only heard of 1 successful mutli-faction MMO (dark age) and 1 unsuccessful one (planetside.) I've played neither of them, but I know that pointing at a project as large as an MMO and saying that one aspect of it was the reason for it's success is laughable at best and farcical at worst. Especially considering the former never got above 250k subscriptions and now exists with some 10k while the latter was never considered successful at all, despite both having 3 faction PvP.

3 faction PvP worked once in a game over 10 years old, and has yet to be repeated with any meaningful effect. The idea that the system is self-policing because two weak factions can team up against a stronger one works in theory, but has the potential to crash and burn right along side 2 faction PvP, which can be balanced with plenty of other methods.

Drakxii

I don't really mind the 2 faction thing with order and disorder but they should really keep Necrons and Tyranids as there own unplayable faction. They work as armies in the table top game but their troops are "mindless" and led by a larger power. Also I thing that every MMO needs pve factions for both sides to hate on.

Unicornicus

Originally posted by StMichael

It's really difficult to say with any certainty what exactly makes an MMO truly great or a spectacular wreck. To date, I've only heard of 1 successful mutli-faction MMO (dark age) and 1 unsuccessful one (planetside.) I've played neither of them, but I know that pointing at a project as large as an MMO and saying that one aspect of it was the reason for it's success is laughable at best and farcical at worst. Especially considering the former never got above 250k subscriptions and now exists with some 10k while the latter was never considered successful at all, despite both having 3 faction PvP.

3 faction PvP worked once in a game over 10 years old, and has yet to be repeated with any meaningful effect. The idea that the system is self-policing because two weak factions can team up against a stronger one works in theory, but has the potential to crash and burn right along side 2 faction PvP, which can be balanced with plenty of other methods.

St Michael its funny you should mention that it works in theory becuase on all 3 servers I played DAoC on it wasnt 3 factions at all... it was always Albion v Midgard with hibernia being the battleground... Hibernia was almost non existant and only passed as an occasional diversion from the actual combat. The idea that 3 factions is self regulating is a myth at best so yes I agree with you.

 

Besides, As I have said before, we have only seen 2 top tier MMOs try 2 factions and 1 of those MMOS (wow) inserted it as a half assed, after-the-fact feature to the game. To say that it is unblanced by nature is to say that no one has properly balanced it.

 

I will say that its refreshing to here more objective and informed posters here (even if you havent played those titles.)

Unicornicus

Originally posted by Drakxii

I don't really mind the 2 faction thing with order and disorder but they should really keep Necrons and Tyranids as there own unplayable faction. They work as armies in the table top game but their troops are "mindless" and led by a larger power. Also I thing that every MMO needs pve factions for both sides to hate on.

I totally agree cuase I cant think of a good reason anyone, (except maybe chaos) would group with a simple all consuming force.

StMichael

I'm not sure necrons are even going to be in at first, but I remember reading somewhere that tyranids will be the main neutral PvE enemy that both factions get to wail on.

So yes, they're in the game. No, you can't play them. No, it's not breaking the IP by chaos somehow figuring out how to talk to the hive mind and strike up a deal. Although, now that I think about it, that might even work. Nidz show up, and in the shadow of the warp a Chaos Sorcerer connects with the hive mind (no need to worry about going crazy, he already is) and in return for aid against the imperium, the sorcerer promises the system is theirs once all is done.

Not saying it SHOULD happen, but that would make a pretty good apocalypse game.

freakishbean

I wouldn't mind "modes" of play where you can be a necron or nid. But as for making them playable races complete with an economy and character progression, I just don't really see it happening. They are both predominantly "mindless" races except for very, very special characters. Necrons don't aquire new weapons or equipment and don't have an economy of any kind. 'Nids just eat everything they see, but character progression might possibly be explained through "evolution" but is at best, impracticle. 

Unicornicus

Originally posted by freakishbean

I wouldn't mind "modes" of play where you can be a necron or nid. But as for making them playable races complete with an economy and character progression, I just don't really see it happening. They are both predominantly "mindless" races except for very, very special characters. Necrons don't aquire new weapons or equipment and don't have an economy of any kind. 'Nids just eat everything they see, but character progression might possibly be explained through "evolution" but is at best, impracticle. 

I was totally shocked when WoW decided that undead was a good idea for a player race since they were supposed to be mindles in the RTS game.

 

Plus they just dont have any vehicles and the like so they just flat out dont fit the formula, like you said, for character progression, or for vehicles.

Labinnac

Now I am new to this discussion and haven't read much but I feel I have read enough to formulate an opinion worth inputting. First the only real reason MMO live as succesful games at all is the MM part MASIVLY MULTIPLAYER. Lets be realistic there are other games out there with better stories(most people just scroll through the story to get their quest anyways) there are thousands with better graphics its the fact you can go online chat with friends make groups and work with others and even show of your gaming nerd rage on your puny insignificant enemies.

Now I love the table top 40K (Tyranids all the way Imperium of man beware we will eat you all). I have been waiting for an MMO. Do I "like" the idea of a 2 faction system? Not paticularly but how just how in the world would you fix it? Make every race its own faction? Good idea guys lets see so far that would 4-6(maybe) factions with lets be conservative 20 starting servers. So your questing and you have an instance quest go kill a big bad Tyranid Warrior. Go  join the LFG for the next week of waiting to find enough people in your one solo faction. Guilds will be small almost useless. Raiding will be a depressing thing of the past. 

the only thing that would be AWESOME would be PVP maybe they could have special PVP battlegrounds where its every xenos for themself? Who knows. All I know is that yes it goes against the IP we also gotta remember this is an MMORPG Good luck delivering on the masive multiplayer part of it when you have so many factions you'll essentialy be playing simultaeniously with maybe if your lucky 20 people that are the same lvl and geared the same as you happen to want to go to the same spot as you and on top of that you have to fill the healer,tank,dps roles? Yeah good luck. I agree the 2 faction system does anger me a little but I look at it as a necessary evil at least for the begining part of the game. Now if anyone can find a way to make a balanced multifactioned(beyond 2 factions) that would address these problems. Then the only hope we have a working 40K MMO will probably be something on the lines of this. And hey MAYBE just MAYBE the story might come along.

Just a parting example. The Undead of WoW. They themselves are untrusting untrustworthy faction that wants to destroy just about anyone. THE only reason they joined the horde according to WoW fluff is an allience of necessity. Not out of respect or honor but only because without this horde as their allies the allience would kill them the Lich king would have hunted them down and the scarlet crusade would slaughter them all. Maybe this is what the THQ team is going for. Not alliences of happiness and peace. But a shaky weak allience where everyone is saying "I'm only working with you until I can kill you"

BishopMiles

@Labinnac

There is one thing I came up with. It still has 2 factions but both halves of the faction can go about and doing their own thing or help their so called "alliance" when the main part of the faction ask for assistance. For example. Imperial Guard/Space Marine allied with Eldar/Tau. You get a message Imperial Forces need assistance holding a key objective. Do you wish to join the fray? You can go about doing what you are doing or help your "alliance" defending a key objective and vice versa. Its your call. This will have no effect on your faction, but will have a impact on the war and the other allied faction.

StMichael

Originally posted by quotheraving

Originally posted by StMichael

So yes, they're in the game. No, you can't play them. No, it's not breaking the IP by chaos somehow figuring out how to talk to the hive mind and strike up a deal. Although, now that I think about it, that might even work. Nidz show up, and in the shadow of the warp a Chaos Sorcerer connects with the hive mind (no need to worry about going crazy, he already is) and in return for aid against the imperium, the sorcerer promises the system is theirs once all is done.

Umm no that is lorebreaking for 2 reasons.

Chaos is very threatened by both Tyrannids and Necrons. Necrons because they promise a universe seperated from the warp and Nids because they are the only living biological race that is completely immune to the taint of Chaos.

Tyrannids on the other hand have no need to take Chaos on it's word since in order to know the memories and true intentions of any living thing they just eat them and Chaos lies.

 

Secondly Tyranids have never allied with anyone.. ever! Doing so for the purposes of a game would be a massive direction change for GW in terms of their design.

 

Both Necrons and Tyranids are unique in the fact that they don't make alliances (opportunistic attacks don't count) and so would make better npc threats for both factions equally.

 

 

You can have allied troops in a necron or nid army however, but the only fluff that holds in these cases is if the allied troops  are being mind controlled in some way.

First of all, I know necrons seek to eradicate all life and ultimately bring about the death of the warp, which is why I didn't mention necrons teaming up with chaos.

Secondly, it was just idle musings to suggest chaos convincing tyranids to help them. It could be a backdrop for an apocalypse game where a small splinter hive has broken off to attack what they thought was a defenseless planet only to encounter space marines. Not good MMO cannon, but it's within realm of possibility for a one-time event.

Nethermancer

as long as i can play necron i could care less about factions

BishopMiles

@Nethermancer
If Necrons was a playable faction you wouldn't see a lot of customization with then. They are a pretty bland race.