NGE in terms of taking a successful game and ruining it, also in terms of ruining the image of a company.
TR in general terms.
WAR in terms of ruining the potential of an excellent IP.
Overall winner (or failure depends how you look at it) is STO, for reasons see one of the 1000 or so threads on the subject (which is incidentally probably higher then the current number of active subs in the game lol).
I wish people would stop being liars about SWG being a winner. It wasn't. Sure it had a vocal group of supporters but NGE was trying to "fix" the game to stop it from bleeding subs. They keep the lie going and will never shut up about it.
First of all SWG has given me the best MMORPG experiance I ever had in a MMORPG, but NEVER was it a succesfull game. It was succesfull at delivering me a great experiance, but I know for a fact I am a niche gamer when it comes to MMORPG's. The game was bleeding subscribers well before even the CU hit. Have box sales of 1.5 million where the game topped at only having 300k subs playing doesn't really sound succesfull, would have been if atleast 1mil would stick subscribed, would have made a huge difference, but we all know who played the game regardless how much we enjoyed it that things had to change, sure we didn't ask for the change we got, but you had to be completely blind to not see the underlying problems the game had and call it a succesfull game.
To OP, simple go to the VET section to get some glimps of what went wrong, tho keep in mind some really push it.
shows little you know about how much mmorpg need to make money .firstly SWG peaked at it hit close to 400k and it was over 250k for years.do your maths and u see even at 250k per year for 4 years it made 15m$ and probably way more since at least 1 of those years it saw 400k+,add in all those 50$ box sales and still has some subs left you probably looking at 125m$ easy.Remember it sold well over 1m copies plus xpacs .
fact that it has some many haters now is a testiment to it have a huge fans base for years who paid $15 a month and $50 per box + xpacs .
As long as a game makes more then its cost of production and distrubution and running its certainly not a flop.using 1m as a target is a joke tbh considering maybe 2 or 3 mmorpg in history has held 2m for more then 1 year .So a mmorpg that has 400k for 3 years = makes more money then a mmorpg with 1m for 1 year.
if EQ1 with 300-500k for 5 years is considered a runaway success then you have an idea.Fact mr x made $100m and then mr b(in this case WoW) made $1 billion only means mr b is richer then mr x but mr x is certainly doing well.
next you say everyone in the world in poor and misreable because bill gates has loads of $ billions.
Never spoke of SWG being a flop or failure, learn to understand what I wrote.
Secondly it was a Star Wars MMORPG, it should have gathered allot more players then those of us who where playing.
I don't have to do the math, I already know the game has made up his cost and brings in revenue, again you making wild asumtions towards things I never said.
Next time try to read and understand a reply when one is made towards someone else, could have saved you your wild asumtions that didn't really make sense towards what I have written.
Tabula Rasa (very sad actually was a fantastic game that needed minor tweaks, certainly wasn't bad enuf to shut down that fast)
Vanguard
Star Trek Online
Matrix Online
Champions Online
Games that are/were commercially successful but did not meet expectations:
SWG
AoC
AION
Successes:
EQ2, LoTRO, L2,
Major Exceptions:
EVE, WoW (duh)
So no Asheron's Call 2 on this list of failures? No Chronicles of Spellborn? To name just a couple of more...your list is very incomplete.
How is EVE a major exception but L2 is only a success? L2 at one point had several million players and has had over 1 million subs ever since it's '03-04 release. Same goes for Lineage 1 since 1998.
EVE still hasn't hit the 500k mark albeit it has never dropped in subs once since it came out.
bcause people around here are incapable of understanding that the market doesnt start and end with the west
its usually the same people that calls AIon a failure despite having several million more subs than the second biggest western MMO.
I think its more to do with L2 being er, a sequel and hardly breaking the mold thus it should expect decent numbers. Whereas EVE is a niche, sandbox and extremely ruthless mmo that defied expectations.
lol? Lineage 1 is a 2d MMO like Ragnarok. Lineage 2 was very mold breaking...One of the first open PvP games since UO, first in 3d, castle sieges (hundreds if not more people showing up for PvP), largest epic raid bosses ever created at the time, possibly even still now, flying mount years before WoW had them, etc...L2 came out before WoW, you realize this right?
Tabula Rasa (very sad actually was a fantastic game that needed minor tweaks, certainly wasn't bad enuf to shut down that fast)
Vanguard
Star Trek Online
Matrix Online
Champions Online
Games that are/were commercially successful but did not meet expectations:
SWG
AoC
AION
Successes:
EQ2, LoTRO, L2,
Major Exceptions:
EVE, WoW (duh)
So no Asheron's Call 2 on this list of failures? No Chronicles of Spellborn? To name just a couple of more...your list is very incomplete.
How is EVE a major exception but L2 is only a success? L2 at one point had several million players and has had over 1 million subs ever since it's '03-04 release. Same goes for Lineage 1 since 1998.
EVE still hasn't hit the 500k mark albeit it has never dropped in subs once since it came out.
bcause people around here are incapable of understanding that the market doesnt start and end with the west
its usually the same people that calls AIon a failure despite having several million more subs than the second biggest western MMO.
I think its more to do with L2 being er, a sequel and hardly breaking the mold thus it should expect decent numbers. Whereas EVE is a niche, sandbox and extremely ruthless mmo that defied expectations.
lol? Lineage 1 is a 2d MMO like Ragnarok. Lineage 2 was very mold breaking...One of the first open PvP games since UO, first in 3d, castle sieges (hundreds if not more people showing up for PvP), largest epic raid bosses ever created at the time, possibly even still now, flying mount years before WoW had them, etc...L2 came out before WoW, you realize this right?
If I remember correctly Lord British helped out with NCsoft with the PVP for L2.
I'm calling it in advance, Final Fantasy 14 is gonna flop hard because the developers can't even do as they preached. A total reversal of what the game was originally intended to be, and as such, makes 11 look faaaar more appealing to me than 14 does (and I could barely stand playing 11...)
world of boredcraft, just because a few million of societies lowest common demoninator pay to play it doesnt make it good, its a watered down weak boring game that the intelectually gifted cant find a reason to play.
and before you tell me im trolling, im being completely serious, non sarcastic and truthfull. if you like wow good for you, but its a complete failure at being any fun in my book, now uo everquest original release star wars galaxies, those were great fun games, even wow was fun when it came out before burning crusade turned it into weak pudding for the masses of sheep.
world of boredcraft, just because a few million of societies lowest common demoninator pay to play it doesnt make it good, its a watered down weak boring game that the intelectually gifted cant find a reason to play.
and before you tell me im trolling, im being completely serious, non sarcastic and truthfull. if you like wow good for you, but its a complete failure at being any fun in my book, now uo everquest original release star wars galaxies, those were great fun games, even wow was fun when it came out before burning crusade turned it into weak pudding for the masses of sheep.
The intellectual, don't misspell intellectually.
Or at least they have knowledge of spell check. Stop using IE on your grandma's WalMart laptop noob.
Mongoloids shouldn't be allowed on the internet.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Horizons & Heros Journey are the ones that got me.
Can't buy the hype any longer after those two. Hell HJ didn't even get made.
Well, to be fair, Heroes Journey is probably making the devs a hell of a lot of cash simply by lending out their engine... so why bother wasting money developing and releasing an mmo and paying for constant maintainance and patching, when the engine alone is a cash cow?
Its nice to not see Shadowbane listed in the first few pages. Its like that game had honorable discharge due to a mental illness that couldnt be prevented. It had the best concept ever but worst engine ever. RIP Shadowbane, well, until you rise from the grave (soon).
Oh boy, thanks for bringing up such a nostalgic topic. I still greatly miss the concept of Shadowbane. Building your own cities from top-to-bottom, inter-guild warfare and intrigue, and open world pvp haven't been brought together in quite the same way in any other game I've ever played. It might have deserved to fail, since it launched with a lack of polish and content that could arguably classify it as half a game, but it had those elements which were recognized as critical to the whole mmorpg thing when it was still new:
- A persistent world that very obviously continued to live, grow, and evolve while you were offline
- A dangerous, free world that you could affect and which could affect you
- A real community of people that you would frequently interact with in a variety of ways
Horizons & Heros Journey are the ones that got me.
Can't buy the hype any longer after those two. Hell HJ didn't even get made.
Well, to be fair, Heroes Journey is probably making the devs a hell of a lot of cash simply by lending out their engine... so why bother wasting money developing and releasing an mmo and paying for constant maintainance and patching, when the engine alone is a cash cow?
I just don't think much of the Hero Engine as they called it back in the day made it into TOR.
If I were a reporter I'd definatly ask what % made it. It was a big buy.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
world of boredcraft, just because a few million of societies lowest common demoninator pay to play it doesnt make it good, its a watered down weak boring game that the intelectually gifted cant find a reason to play.
and before you tell me im trolling, im being completely serious, non sarcastic and truthfull. if you like wow good for you, but its a complete failure at being any fun in my book, now uo everquest original release star wars galaxies, those were great fun games, even wow was fun when it came out before burning crusade turned it into weak pudding for the masses of sheep.
The intellectual, don't misspell intellectually.
Or at least they have knowledge of spell check. Stop using IE on your grandma's WalMart laptop noob.
Mongoloids shouldn't be allowed on the internet.
wow, a guy named eburns flamingly trolling me for typeing too fast, btw, its google chrome and its my laptop at work so ya taking time to spellcheck while on call, not really neccessary. i have arthritis so sometimes i hit the wrong key, sue me if it makes you feel any better.
Been subbed to SWG since launch. Went through lotta changes I hated, but the game is still good imho. Only reason some folks think its a flop is because theres too much bitterness from the community that had their original SWG yanked out from underneath them. Cant blame em, I was one of em for a while tbh. But I kept my sub and logged on from time to time checking it out, asking about game features on the forums. Currently, tbh, its one of the better mmorpg on the market. yeah it prob coud be at a much better place right now if they hadnt messed with it so drastically, but its definitely not a flop.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
Yes it is.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Been subbed to SWG since launch. Went through lotta changes I hated, but the game is still good imho. Only reason some folks think its a flop is because theres too much bitterness from the community that had their original SWG yanked out from underneath them. Cant blame em, I was one of em for a while tbh. But I kept my sub and logged on from time to time checking it out, asking about game features on the forums. Currently, tbh, its one of the better mmorpg on the market. yeah it prob coud be at a much better place right now if they hadnt messed with it so drastically, but its definitely not a flop.
Been subbed to SWG since launch. Went through lotta changes I hated, but the game is still good imho. Only reason some folks think its a flop is because theres too much bitterness from the community that had their original SWG yanked out from underneath them. Cant blame em, I was one of em for a while tbh. But I kept my sub and logged on from time to time checking it out, asking about game features on the forums. Currently, tbh, its one of the better mmorpg on the market. yeah it prob coud be at a much better place right now if they hadnt messed with it so drastically, but its definitely not a flop.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
Yes it is.
bunny
theres no reason to be an angry troll
foomerang is entitled to his opinions, hes paid his sub, hes earned the right to enjoy the game
Been subbed to SWG since launch. Went through lotta changes I hated, but the game is still good imho. Only reason some folks think its a flop is because theres too much bitterness from the community that had their original SWG yanked out from underneath them. Cant blame em, I was one of em for a while tbh. But I kept my sub and logged on from time to time checking it out, asking about game features on the forums. Currently, tbh, its one of the better mmorpg on the market. yeah it prob coud be at a much better place right now if they hadnt messed with it so drastically, but its definitely not a flop.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
Yes it is.
It is his own opinion
It is his own opinion
It is his own opinion
Still his own opinion
And that's mine, do you have a point?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Been subbed to SWG since launch. Went through lotta changes I hated, but the game is still good imho. Only reason some folks think its a flop is because theres too much bitterness from the community that had their original SWG yanked out from underneath them. Cant blame em, I was one of em for a while tbh. But I kept my sub and logged on from time to time checking it out, asking about game features on the forums. Currently, tbh, its one of the better mmorpg on the market. yeah it prob coud be at a much better place right now if they hadnt messed with it so drastically, but its definitely not a flop.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
Yes it is.
bunny
theres no reason to be an angry troll
foomerang is entitled to his opinions, hes paid his sub, hes earned the right to enjoy the game
take a chill pill, get in a hot bath, relax
I'm not angry, and that was far from trolling. His sub entitles him to play the game and has nothing whatsoever to do with this forum. He proffered an opinion, I showed my disagreement.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
NGE in terms of taking a successful game and ruining it, also in terms of ruining the image of a company.
TR in general terms.
WAR in terms of ruining the potential of an excellent IP.
Overall winner (or failure depends how you look at it) is STO, for reasons see one of the 1000 or so threads on the subject (which is incidentally probably higher then the current number of active subs in the game lol).
I'd say LotRO was a much bigger flop in terms of ruining a good IP. Lord of the Rings is arguably the biggest fantasy IP. Its the Star Wars of fantasy. Turbine was riding the popularity wave after the movies, but kept delaying Middle Earth Online to the point where many lost interest. Then they restructured the entire game to be a linear WoW clone, and thus, lost almost all their loyal followers.
As for other huge flops, Asheron's Call 2 immediately comes to mind.
NGE in terms of taking a successful game and ruining it, also in terms of ruining the image of a company.
TR in general terms.
WAR in terms of ruining the potential of an excellent IP.
Overall winner (or failure depends how you look at it) is STO, for reasons see one of the 1000 or so threads on the subject (which is incidentally probably higher then the current number of active subs in the game lol).
I'd say LotRO was a much bigger flop in terms of ruining a good IP. Lord of the Rings is arguably the biggest fantasy IP. Its the Star Wars of fantasy. Turbine was riding the popularity wave after the movies, but kept delaying Middle Earth Online to the point where many lost interest. Then they restructured the entire game to be a linear WoW clone, and thus, lost almost all their loyal followers.
As for other huge flops, Asheron's Call 2 immediately comes to mind.
Age of Conan was a huge flop as well.
This has already been discussed to death on the official lotro forum, a 100% lore abiding mmorpg based on LOTR would not work.
I don't know why people would list warhammer as a failure, the game reached 800,000 subs in its peak, that's really big. Today it's still at about 300,000, most other MMOs dream about that kind of number.
I've been playing the trial, and it seems like a pretty solid game, and damn it sure is more engaging right now that world of do one raid over and over craft. It's not nearly as bad as others that have come (and it's not even worth being called bad).
Want an MMO that failed super hardcore? Vanguard. That game was so hyped up, and it crashed and burned so hard, people stopped talking about it within a month or two.
I don't know why people would list warhammer as a failure, the game reached 800,000 subs in its peak, that's really big. Today it's still at about 300,000, most other MMOs dream about that kind of number.
I've been playing the trial, and it seems like a pretty solid game, and damn it sure is more engaging right now that world of do one raid over and over craft. It's not nearly as bad as others that have come (and it's not even worth being called bad).
Want an MMO that failed super hardcore? Vanguard. That game was so hyped up, and it crashed and burned so hard, people stopped talking about it within a month or two.
I am pretty sure the sub number is way less than 300k, The reason the trial seems so full is that it is unlimited and anyone can play...go past Rank ten and you will find the game is much less active.
I don't know why people would list warhammer as a failure, the game reached 800,000 subs in its peak, that's really big. Today it's still at about 300,000, most other MMOs dream about that kind of number.
I've been playing the trial, and it seems like a pretty solid game, and damn it sure is more engaging right now that world of do one raid over and over craft. It's not nearly as bad as others that have come (and it's not even worth being called bad).
Want an MMO that failed super hardcore? Vanguard. That game was so hyped up, and it crashed and burned so hard, people stopped talking about it within a month or two.
Uhm, no it does not have that many. 100K are the number I have heard, The 300K number is older than a year and there are a lot fewer right now then it was a year ago.
It is still alive of course and that is good but WAR is a failure because the goal of the creators were to make a game that would be bigger than Wow (really, both MJ and Barnett said so before launch). If something is a failure or not depends on your expectations and in this case they were faaar away in fantasy land. And it also depends on if the game is still up or not of course.
Vanguard cost less to make than WAR a lot less and is still running, both WAR and VG are no true failures as they are still up but they failed to meet their devs expectations making them at least small failures both. I would say WAR is bigger since it has a great world with millions of fans, cost a lot more to make and had a lot higher goal than VG (who hoped for up to half a million players, not more than Wow).
Both games are however just small failures since they still are running. If you want a large failure it was:Tabula Rasa. A lot of money and work went into that and it still survived a very short period of time.
Comments
Never spoke of SWG being a flop or failure, learn to understand what I wrote.
Secondly it was a Star Wars MMORPG, it should have gathered allot more players then those of us who where playing.
I don't have to do the math, I already know the game has made up his cost and brings in revenue, again you making wild asumtions towards things I never said.
Next time try to read and understand a reply when one is made towards someone else, could have saved you your wild asumtions that didn't really make sense towards what I have written.
lol? Lineage 1 is a 2d MMO like Ragnarok. Lineage 2 was very mold breaking...One of the first open PvP games since UO, first in 3d, castle sieges (hundreds if not more people showing up for PvP), largest epic raid bosses ever created at the time, possibly even still now, flying mount years before WoW had them, etc...L2 came out before WoW, you realize this right?
Even though ever released ill have to say the Matrix mmo
I challenged my reflection to a staring contest....4 days later i won
If I remember correctly Lord British helped out with NCsoft with the PVP for L2.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
I think it is still hilarious that people still call hellgate a mmo!
It seems anything with multiplayer is an mmo nowadays.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
Gonna get flamed for this, buuut...
I'm calling it in advance, Final Fantasy 14 is gonna flop hard because the developers can't even do as they preached. A total reversal of what the game was originally intended to be, and as such, makes 11 look faaaar more appealing to me than 14 does (and I could barely stand playing 11...)
world of boredcraft, just because a few million of societies lowest common demoninator pay to play it doesnt make it good, its a watered down weak boring game that the intelectually gifted cant find a reason to play.
and before you tell me im trolling, im being completely serious, non sarcastic and truthfull. if you like wow good for you, but its a complete failure at being any fun in my book, now uo everquest original release star wars galaxies, those were great fun games, even wow was fun when it came out before burning crusade turned it into weak pudding for the masses of sheep.
I actually enjoyed HGL but, yeah, it wasn't an MMO.
Horizons & Heros Journey are the ones that got me.
Can't buy the hype any longer after those two. Hell HJ didn't even get made.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
The intellectual, don't misspell intellectually.
Or at least they have knowledge of spell check. Stop using IE on your grandma's WalMart laptop noob.
Mongoloids shouldn't be allowed on the internet.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Well, to be fair, Heroes Journey is probably making the devs a hell of a lot of cash simply by lending out their engine... so why bother wasting money developing and releasing an mmo and paying for constant maintainance and patching, when the engine alone is a cash cow?
Oh boy, thanks for bringing up such a nostalgic topic. I still greatly miss the concept of Shadowbane. Building your own cities from top-to-bottom, inter-guild warfare and intrigue, and open world pvp haven't been brought together in quite the same way in any other game I've ever played. It might have deserved to fail, since it launched with a lack of polish and content that could arguably classify it as half a game, but it had those elements which were recognized as critical to the whole mmorpg thing when it was still new:
- A persistent world that very obviously continued to live, grow, and evolve while you were offline
- A dangerous, free world that you could affect and which could affect you
- A real community of people that you would frequently interact with in a variety of ways
I just don't think much of the Hero Engine as they called it back in the day made it into TOR.
If I were a reporter I'd definatly ask what % made it. It was a big buy.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
wow, a guy named eburns flamingly trolling me for typeing too fast, btw, its google chrome and its my laptop at work so ya taking time to spellcheck while on call, not really neccessary. i have arthritis so sometimes i hit the wrong key, sue me if it makes you feel any better.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
No it isn't.
Yes it is.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
It is his own opinion
It is his own opinion
It is his own opinion
Still his own opinion
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
bunny
theres no reason to be an angry troll
foomerang is entitled to his opinions, hes paid his sub, hes earned the right to enjoy the game
take a chill pill, get in a hot bath, relax
And that's mine, do you have a point?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I'm not angry, and that was far from trolling. His sub entitles him to play the game and has nothing whatsoever to do with this forum. He proffered an opinion, I showed my disagreement.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I'd say LotRO was a much bigger flop in terms of ruining a good IP. Lord of the Rings is arguably the biggest fantasy IP. Its the Star Wars of fantasy. Turbine was riding the popularity wave after the movies, but kept delaying Middle Earth Online to the point where many lost interest. Then they restructured the entire game to be a linear WoW clone, and thus, lost almost all their loyal followers.
As for other huge flops, Asheron's Call 2 immediately comes to mind.
Age of Conan was a huge flop as well.
This has already been discussed to death on the official lotro forum, a 100% lore abiding mmorpg based on LOTR would not work.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
I don't know why people would list warhammer as a failure, the game reached 800,000 subs in its peak, that's really big. Today it's still at about 300,000, most other MMOs dream about that kind of number.
I've been playing the trial, and it seems like a pretty solid game, and damn it sure is more engaging right now that world of do one raid over and over craft. It's not nearly as bad as others that have come (and it's not even worth being called bad).
Want an MMO that failed super hardcore? Vanguard. That game was so hyped up, and it crashed and burned so hard, people stopped talking about it within a month or two.
I am pretty sure the sub number is way less than 300k, The reason the trial seems so full is that it is unlimited and anyone can play...go past Rank ten and you will find the game is much less active.
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
Uhm, no it does not have that many. 100K are the number I have heard, The 300K number is older than a year and there are a lot fewer right now then it was a year ago.
It is still alive of course and that is good but WAR is a failure because the goal of the creators were to make a game that would be bigger than Wow (really, both MJ and Barnett said so before launch). If something is a failure or not depends on your expectations and in this case they were faaar away in fantasy land. And it also depends on if the game is still up or not of course.
Vanguard cost less to make than WAR a lot less and is still running, both WAR and VG are no true failures as they are still up but they failed to meet their devs expectations making them at least small failures both. I would say WAR is bigger since it has a great world with millions of fans, cost a lot more to make and had a lot higher goal than VG (who hoped for up to half a million players, not more than Wow).
Both games are however just small failures since they still are running. If you want a large failure it was:Tabula Rasa. A lot of money and work went into that and it still survived a very short period of time.