Yay for being told how much I am allowed to play every week!
Another person who doesnt understand at all.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
You guys had no intention of changing to a gathering profession to earn some money? No plans to craft? no plans to test any other war based class?
Im not trying to convince any of you guys to like the system, im saying stop being so clsed minded, every game this year is trying to be a WoW clone, and square enix is doing something unique and you guys are so scared of change you are jumping ship before it even leaves the docks.
I don't like the systems AS EXPLAINED by SE so far, but I do have a CE and plan on being at launch. But I do find it strange you told them to "have an open mind" when you say things like that about money?
One of the very good ways in FFXI to get money was farming. Just killing mobs and reselling drops. Boss camping. If you were in a linkshell, you didn't even need that much money as most guildied did things for cost. Half the time they even had extra mats to use so money really wasn't that much of an issue. And trying to gather ores in places like Ifrit and such were a pain when there were tons of others doing it on a few nodes, which was very common. You know when money came into play in FFXI?
When you had s u b s to pay for. That's when the game got cha-chingy.
If you were a BST, SMN, RDM, PUP, yo umade all the money you needed solo. If you were a BLM, you did BCNM parties and charged a percentage of what dropped or straight fee for the run you spilit with 5 other BLMs.
Crafting was actually not very lucrative unless you did it all the time and sold cheap. The people in the big shells made most of the money cause they got all the rare drops from dragons and such. Which they got because they were.. killing things with their toons.
The not being like WoW comment is funny because half the fans who like FFXIV are saying "Hey, Wow had the same exact type of system as this.. why is everyone upset now?" lol
First off, the main concept behind FFXIV is allowing those players with little time on their hands to play effectively, and game balance is based off of that. Furthermore, it is being designed to not give those with more time on their hands to play an unfair advantage. Because of that, systems such as Guardian’s Favor (a bonus to Guildleves) have been implemented to make leveling in the short-term easier than leveling in the long-term.
To achieve this balance, the amount of possible skill/experience points earned after a certain period of time has a threshold. Think of it as real-life “fatigue” from working at improving your skills via battle *(aka. No one could train ad nauseam in the real world with no ill effects).
Within the first eight hours of play, you can earn 100% experience. The seven hour period following will see your possible experience gradually approach zero.
This system is on a weekly timer. After a week has passed since you began skilling that particular weapon, the timer will reset. It will start anew when you skill up again.
Any experience earned past that point is saved as “surplus.” There is surplus for each class, and if you begin to see it please consider playing another class and adjust accordingly.
However, experience points are not specific to any class and therefore the decrease in experience points is not affected by changing classes.
That’s how the system stands as of right now.
"
Character Experience
0 - 8 hrs: 100% exp earned
8 - 15 hrs: The experience earned approaches zero.
Class Experience
0 - 8 hrs: 100% experience earned
8 - 15 hrs: The experience earned approaches zero.
Class timers are independent.
I don't really know if this is a good or a bad thing. It would be nice if SE offered multiple character slots with the basic subscription.
You guys had no intention of changing to a gathering profession to earn some money? No plans to craft? no plans to test any other war based class?
Im not trying to convince any of you guys to like the system, im saying stop being so clsed minded, every game this year is trying to be a WoW clone, and square enix is doing something unique and you guys are so scared of change you are jumping ship before it even leaves the docks.
I don't like the systems AS EXPLAINED by SE so far, but I do have a CE and plan on being at launch. But I do find it strange you told them to "have an open mind" when you say things like that about money?
One of the very good ways in FFXI to get money was farming. Just killing mobs and reselling drops. Boss camping. If you were in a linkshell, you didn't even need that much money as most guildied did things for cost. Half the time they even had extra mats to use so money really wasn't that much of an issue. And trying to gather ores in places like Ifrit and such were a pain when there were tons of others doing it on a few nodes, which was very common. You know when money came into play in FFXI?
When you had s u b s to pay for. That's when the game got cha-chingy.
If you were a BST, SMN, RDM, PUP, yo umade all the money you needed solo. If you were a BLM, you did BCNM parties and charged a percentage of what dropped or straight fee for the run you spilit with 5 other BLMs.
Crafting was actually not very lucrative unless you did it all the time and sold cheap. The people in the big shells made most of the money cause they got all the rare drops from dragons and such. Which they got because they were.. killing things with their toons.
The not being like WoW comment is funny because half the fans who like FFXIV are saying "Hey, Wow had the same exact type of system as this.. why is everyone upset now?" lol
You understand that past levle 12 there are no vendor bought items? no armor or weapons or potions, everything is gained through player crafting, so gathering would be a good source of income, as for grinding monster drops for loot.. with this system you grind even more, you get less xp that means you will be killing certain mobs a hell of a lot longer getting a lot more loot.
I dont get your point and what you were trying to point out? This system does not affect farming mobs for money in anyway, if anything it means you would make a lot more money per level, cause you are killing a lott more mobs.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
First off, the main concept behind FFXIV is allowing those players with little time on their hands to play effectively, and game balance is based off of that. Furthermore, it is being designed to not give those with more time on their hands to play an unfair advantage. Because of that, systems such as Guardian’s Favor (a bonus to Guildleves) have been implemented to make leveling in the short-term easier than leveling in the long-term.
To achieve this balance, the amount of possible skill/experience points earned after a certain period of time has a threshold. Think of it as real-life “fatigue” from working at improving your skills via battle *(aka. No one could train ad nauseam in the real world with no ill effects).
Within the first eight hours of play, you can earn 100% experience. The seven hour period following will see your possible experience gradually approach zero.
This system is on a weekly timer. After a week has passed since you began skilling that particular weapon, the timer will reset. It will start anew when you skill up again.
Any experience earned past that point is saved as “surplus.” There is surplus for each class, and if you begin to see it please consider playing another class and adjust accordingly.
However, experience points are not specific to any class and therefore the decrease in experience points is not affected by changing classes.
That’s how the system stands as of right now.
"
Character Experience
0 - 8 hrs: 100% exp earned
8 - 15 hrs: The experience earned approaches zero.
Class Experience
0 - 8 hrs: 100% experience earned
8 - 15 hrs: The experience earned approaches zero.
Class timers are independent.
I don't really know if this is a good or a bad thing. It would be nice if SE offered multiple character slots with the basic subscription.
Whyd o you need more character slots?
You switch classes by switching weapons, there are no clas limits, you really dont need more then one character since you can play every class with your single character. however you can makke more then one toon.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Yay for being told how much I am allowed to play every week!
Another person who doesnt understand at all.
Oh believe me I understand, I've been following this game for a long time and I dont plan on canceling my preorder, but to try and defend a system that punishes people who want to focus on one class mostly, or invest more time into playing and suddenly run out of time to play... and friends who ask if you can come as healer to party... nah sorry guys SE decided I've finished gaining levels on that class.
Did I plan on trying more then one class and mixing so I can mix skills also? yes, is there any reason whatsoever to defend this retarded system? no.
Meh, I keep seeing topics with 'surplus' and 'fatigue' in its' title but I've been to lazy to read about it till now.
I was in beta and never ran into this problem. I really don't care that this system is there, if I end up getting 0% on a certain class then I'll just change to another one or farm.... I'm still wondering if the 8 hour timer starts as soon as you log on or if it just runs when you are in combat. I probably wouldn't like the system very much if it started the second I logged in because I would feel forced to rush and grind mobs.
I still think that a lot of the delays are related to the PS3 launch getting pushed back (auction house not present, no end game, surplus xp, etc.) It seems like SE is saving some game changers to help out the PS3 users (which is a good idea imo) I don't think this game will officially be launched until the PS3 version comes out, I'm betting that a lot of things will be added around that time.
I honestly don't see the system sticking around, since the majority of people that played FFXI had a 'ton' of free time (you pretty much had to). I think a lot of people just don't want to be group dependent 100% of the time but still want to invest a lot of time in it.
Nevermind about having to mix classes to be effective. What about people who mainly like to craft? this applies to crafting and gathering as well and then they go and make the economy craft dependant .
There's only 2 mage classes as well so you get 16 hours of un-penalised levelling between 2 classes a week then you have to wait hours for your stats to change never mind needing a completely different set of gear.
How people can even compare this to the rested system in other games is beyond me.
After reading the FF14 posts on this website every day and over hearing talk in my guild chat and general chat in the mmos I frequent. I think this game is getting close enough to release that alot of people are starting to realize that FF14 and a few other decent looking mmos are coming out soon. And many people are affraid that some of there online friends and game communite will be going to try new games.. And for whatever reason they will not be joining them due to their computer hardware isnt good enough to run newer games, don't care for the game everyone is running to, or just are affaid that they might not be "the man" at some of the newer games coming out. I do think that these three reasons lead alot of people to frequent fourms and general chat in games to pull on any negitive string they can find on any new game to try to keep as many people playing the game they are playing for as long as possible. I for one can not continue to play the same 4 or 5 mmos over and over and over agian. Call me a fanboy or whatev but I love trying new games... My computer rocks and can play anything and I have an open mind... If a game sucks after I try it, I simply quit playin it and move on to something else.. But I can tell anyone this that I refuse to rate any game until I play the game it myself.... Not alpha or beta or trial... the finished released game.
You understand that past levle 12 there are no vendor bought items? no armor or weapons or potions, everything is gained through player crafting, so gathering would be a good source of income, as for grinding monster drops for loot.. with this system you grind even more, you get less xp that means you will be killing certain mobs a hell of a lot longer getting a lot more loot.
I dont get your point and what you were trying to point out? This system does not affect farming mobs for money in anyway, if anything it means you would make a lot more money per level, cause you are killing a lott more mobs.
Editing quotes is screwy here, sorry.
Anyways where did you get this info? These items were not present in the least in the latest beta (there were a few more finished products in the prior I will admit), but they were replaced by crafting components in this last beta. A lot of components could be bought through NPCs where finished items could not be.
From the info we have to go on it's very hard to figure out just what's going to be available for purchase from the vendors tbh.
I think square went about it wrong in the sense that, people start off with this surplus xp, if they made it so you activated it, and it lasted 8 hours people would not even notice, that is the joke.
This is basically a bonus exp system, basically for 8 hours on one class you got accelerated exp gain, once you burn through it, you get normal exp, now you can either continue grinding this normal exp or you can switch to another class that still has its accelerated xp available to it, this is exactly what the system is, and it a not a big deal.
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Im guessing you arent in the beta cause you refer to slow combat, and combat is not slow and the fact of the matter is, you would be playing other classes, there are skills in the other classes you were going to want to get anyway, this whole reply doesnt make sense to me, you were going to play other classes but now because you feel like youre being forced to do so you dont want to play anymore? Sounds ridiculous.
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By the way, i am a hardcore player, this system doesnt bother me, only because im also a self sufficent player, i already planned on playing 5 classes, so this system didnt affect me in anyway, and most real hardcore players also planned on playing several classes, and the other hardcore players... will just grind through the reduced xp and look at it as a method of getting more dropped loot off monsters to sell to the vendor/other players whatever, most hardcore players can grind, regardless of the amount of xp you get for it, the people who complain about this system are the ones who want to hit max level as fast as they can as soon as they can, thats not playing the game, that is just trying to burn through all the content.
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Why would you have to have gear for all the classes? You can easily see which characters share stats and gear, the only thing youd need to really focus on is aweapon, now im not saying it would be easy to go from lancer to conj, but someone who plans on making that jump knows what is involved, but you can easily go from lancer to maurader, pugalist to ranger, in beta im currently playing lancer, pugalist, murader, easily, just switching weapons, nothing else required, and having no trouble.
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You guys had no intention of changing to a gathering profession to earn some money? No plans to craft? no plans to test any other war based class?
Im not trying to convince any of you guys to like the system, im saying stop being so clsed minded, every game this year is trying to be a WoW clone, and square enix is doing something unique and you guys are so scared of change you are jumping ship before it even leaves the docks.
I preorded the game, and i may not pick it up at launch, bu tif i dont this silly surplus xp system wont be the reason.
And people seem to be missing the most important point they made... THEY ARE STILL ADJUSTING THE SYSTEM. Christ, Its closed beta, they want players feedback, they are listening, all these assholes say square enix doesnt listen , yet the dev just took time out of his day to get upset about fanforums raging about a system they dont understand.
Yeah maybe they dont have some community manager who is hired to hold your hands, and jerk you off just to calm you down everytime you throw a hissy fit on the forums, but you cant say they arent listening to feedback, espcailly since their known issues section of the patchnotes addresses every major complaint, do you people expect them to change things overnight, the game isnt even out yet.
How is this, in any way, simillar to rested XP? You gain 100%xp (normal xp) for 8hour, after this, in the upcoming 7hour, you're xp is degrading to 0% (No xp at all) and turn into "surplus" which has not been talked about.
In the other hand, rested Xp is you have 100%normal xp, you rest and gain 200% xp for the amount of time it has been accumulated while you rested. Once it's finish you still gain the same amount of xp as you started.
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No I'm not in beta, I juged the slow combat from recent video on youtube. Pugilist seem faster paced then other class which is why I like them. Ranger seem a little bit of troublesome to play which is a turn off. Simple as that.
About playing another class is my choice, I don't want to be FORCED to do so. Of course, if one skill in X class interest me I'll go for it but I dont want to be FORCED to do so. And in the end, after I got the skill I want and nothing in the other class interest me, what I'm suspose to do? Oh right, I'm forced to play another class because SE failed it.
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Wow, Self Suffisent player. Damn, That's nice. So it doesn't bother you because you plan to lvl each and every single class in the game, good for you. Does this mean I should to the same as you? Nop. Am I forced to do the same as you? Yes. This is where it become stupid.
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Sharing stat, awesome but you can't max each stat for each class which suck. Say your a Pugilist focusing on Dex/agi/end then switch to A caster who sue ENd/Int/Psy, yep, you're about as much screwed as once you started playing. Obviously, the stat I talked about are just a exemple.
As for the weapon, You're forced to have weapon with you to change classes. Once you've maxed , let say, your 2 main class, you're forced to use another one to progress in the game.
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About crafting and gathering profession. It may interest me depending on how it work, if it's as boring as other game crafting, I won't do it. And if I'm forced to do so, like it's suggested right now, It's just going to turn me off compeltly lol. Crafting and gathering aren't really interesting unless well implemented in a game. So far I know too little of this to even judge it but well, I'll have to see what happen. The point stay, I don't want to be FORCED to do so if I don't want to do it.
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Being close minded? Cmon, I am open minded and when something is totally absurd then I'll talk about it. The game itself seem amazing, just this thing is comppletly ruining the game experience.It's forcing you to do something else then what you like. It's eliminating the way you should enjoy the game.This idea is already turbning alot of player off. A game is susposed to be fun and enjoyable, once you feel forced to do something, it's no longer fun.
I don't play any MMO right now because they'll boring, FFXIV was the next one I was going to try until I saw this. 'll wait and see how SE deal with it but it's surte I won't be paying a monthly fee to play like THEY want me to play.
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Of course, Beta is BEta, thing are going to change. Even after launch, it might change. If they completly scrap this idea and turn it into reted xp similar to Wow, I'll be pre-ordering the CE box right after... If they're still going to limit how you should play well, screw them and I won't be playing. Simple as that. Even FFXI is better then this ( even fi i played it for a 2month after launch) Have to lvl other job like you want is better then being forced to play a different class you dont want.
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"Yeah maybe they dont have some community manager who is hired to hold your hands, and jerk you off just to calm you down everytime you throw a hissy fit on the forum s, but you cant say they arent listening to feedback, espcailly since their known issues section of the patchnotes addresses every major complaint, do you people expect them to change things overnight, the game isnt even out yet."
Holy shit, you said you were open minded? hahaha. Community management is a part of MMO game, they aren't doing it and making bad reputation for themself by not knowing how to deal with it. This problem about the fatigue/surplus system is a proof that SE has barely no experience when ti come to this. One of their devs said something harsh about foreigner ( aka us) which is totally non sense to do in this kind of market.
Blizzard was intending to do something similar in WoW, player contested and they scrapped it and changed it into the rested system which work perfectly now. This is WHY Wow is one of the best game in the MMO market and still hasn't be beat down by anything else. Blizzard LISTEN to their community and change accordingly to what should be better and more fun for the player.
If SE can't do this, too bad for them but FFXIV will be another niche market game where retarded fan boy will play. That's all.
They have all the power in their hand to make the game the best experience for the player, to get mor eplayer, to keep the player and make shitload of money. if they're going to screw themself with ridiculous way of limiting how a player should play because they don't want player to do something, so be it.
In the end, it's all about how they will manage to deal with the community. MMO are a market o make shitload of cash, you succed or you fail. That's it.
You switch classes by switching weapons, there are no clas limits, you really dont need more then one character since you can play every class with your single character. however you can makke more then one toon.
There is some confustion on how the Surplus/Fatigue works because of 2 conflicting peices of info
on one hand you have the surplus thing is a rest system... once you eat up the rest xp/sp you get the base xp and sp
On the other hand you have it where after 15 hours you earn ZERO xp and sp... switching classes will let you get SP for that class, but you still wouldn't gain XP.
what he was saying was playing another character once the full 15 hour fatigue kicks in.
I still think that a lot of the delays are related to the PS3 launch getting pushed back (auction house not present, no end game, surplus xp, etc.) It seems like SE is saving some game changers to help out the PS3 users (which is a good idea imo) I don't think this game will officially be launched until the PS3 version comes out, I'm betting that a lot of things will be added around that time.
So they plan on releasing the PC version even though they know it's not ready, needs alot of work and a big chunk of content just isnt there, and try to mask the fact that that they're using the PC version as a paid beta by introducing a retarded surplus system and trying to pawn it off like its some kind of gift to casuals.
Then they act all surprised when alot of people have a problem with that, and go all emo on twitter and start blaming those damn foreigners for the negative reception to this, even though the whole "1 hr a day to avoid surplus" estimate was a pretty good one and fairly close to the official explanation of 8 hrs a week, especially considering that SE didn't even bother explaining it until it got out of hand, because their idea of PR and listening to the community is pretty much telling everyone to go F@&* themselves while they do their own thing.
The way that would fix it or have it work for me would be as follows:
First 8 hours are fine.
Every hour past that you'd be given a rank of the surplus buff.
The surplus buff would decrease your exp gained by 10% per rank of the buff, but would increase exp gained on an alternate class by 5%.
Playing an alternate class would gradually reduce your "fatigue" and eventually reduce you back to where you start the first 8 hours, thus letting you play 8 hours on your first class.
I.E. You play a gladiator for 10 hours. You have 2 ranks of the surplus buff so you gain 20% less exp. You switch over to Conjurer and gain 10% bonus exp for the first hour and 5% bonus exp for the second hour you play. After that second hour your surplus buff has faded. Now you can either do two things: 1. Go back to your Gladiator and play at 100% exp gain (of which after an hour you'll gain the surplus buff rank 1, reducing your exp to 90%, and so on) or 2. Keep playing an alt and every hour that you play on the alt, the "fatigue hours" that you racked up would eventually dwindle down to 0, making it so you can eventually play your Gladiator for 8 hours without any penalties.
There is some confustion on how the Surplus/Fatigue works because of 2 conflicting peices of info
on one hand you have the surplus thing is a rest system... once you eat up the rest xp/sp you get the base xp and sp
On the other hand you have it where after 15 hours you earn ZERO xp and sp... switching classes will let you get SP for that class, but you still wouldn't gain XP.
what he was saying was playing another character once the full 15 hour fatigue kicks in.
Yes, that was what I was getting at. Some players will hate the idea of getting 0 experience for their physical levels, and offering multiple character slots will still allow them to achieve value for their time, but not have an " unfair advantage ".
so please clarify which of these scenarios are true. Say you're on a...96-hour marathon of killing boars. 1 by 1. Killing first boar gives you 1000 xp. will killing a boar 96 hours later give you 500...100...0...or how much?
I think it simply a case of this not a game where killing boars for ninety six hours straight is the best game strategy, it might require more thought out of it's players.
96 hous of killing boars... why dont you have any responsibilties dude...?
Anyway, if you were so inclined to do something that silly, youd simply have to switch to another weapon, in that time youd prolly level 5 classes about 20 levels instead of one class up 30 levels.
I'm prettttttty positive this guy was exaggerating to make a point, and it flew over both your heads by 2,865 miles.
Ninety-six was an arbitrary number of hours; simply a number that far exceeded any "surplus" - or whatever they want to call it - experience period and left the player on the other side. His question still remains unanswered at that. After reading through this entire thread, however, I'd assume that killing a boar that in the first hour gives you 1000 exp would give you 500 exp 96 hours later. In that sense, this system is a "100% bonus" as some have put it, or the "normal exp is 50%" as others have.
Regardless, one thing is clear: SE has failed miserably on clarifying the subject and should've considered the ramifications of such a convoluted system in the first place given that so many out there have never seen, played, or understood FFXI's class system. On the other end, former FFXI players continually fail at citing examples of why secondary or sub-jobs are so important, and also only offer ridiculous explanations themselves.
It's quite simple, really, so I'll explain from what experience I had as a 75/37 bard/white mage in FFXI. Every character in FFXI could have a main job and a sub-job. Playing a main without a sub was possible, sure, but in doing so you lost stats and abilities. Those stats and abilities were quite significant given that at any time, you receieved 50% of the main job's level as your sub job's level. So say you're level 20, your sub is level 10.
Now, bard was a buff/support class, with little to no combat skills and as such, worked best with a sub-job that added further support abilities. Understand that the sub-job abilities will always be quite weak in comparison to a main job ability, so the sub is there merely to enhance the main's abilities. That said, white mage at the time I played was far and away the best option to bolster my role as a bard given that it gave me some small heals, and buffed my stats in areas essential to my main class. Sure, I could've subbed warrior, but what am I going to do; taunt the mob and tank in my weak armor and extremely low health pool while I whack at it with my dagger? I was way better off with cure and curaga which, while weak, definitely helped to save my groups after a stray hit nearly killed my healer, or an AoE hit my group and I could help the party get their health back to safe levels more quickly before another AoE would land.
To give another quick example, another combo I had to 75 was thief/ninja. Thief was a class that required lots of dexterity and agility (which determined my damage and dodge), both of which were bolstered by my ninja sub. Thieves in a party are at their best when helping to keep focus on a tank, and absolutely could not survive direct attacks for any period of time, and given the potential of mistakes with sneak/trick attacks (skills that deal high damage and re-direct threat), as well as their high damage output, pulling threat from the tank was a definite possibility at times. As such, the ninja sub-job also served as a way to avoid damage, given that it gave the skill (I think the name was) utsusemi: ichi, which gave you shadows to avoid a certain number of hits. It was essentially a dodge ability that you cast before you took damage, to avoid taking damage. Without the ninja sub, the thief would not only put out far less damage which would hurt the tank's ability to hold threat while the group maximized damage elsewhere, but certainly die more often slowing down the group, and losing the player experience for that death.
There's plenty of other examples, such as paladin/warrior which gave a paladin tank more health and another taunt, or red mage/black mage which gave a support role debuffer/buffer additional intelligence for landing offensive spells and a far greater mana pool, but the point is that if FFXIV is going to continue with a system similar to that of XI, every last person who plays will emphasize leveling their appropriate sub, which it seems this system can only help with. I won't say I agree with its implementation, particularly once your appropriate sub-jobs are at their maximum necessary level (half of your main) and you wish to focus on your main job, but I don't see it as a deal-breaker.
All of that said; take my comments with a grain of salt. It's been years since I last played FFXI (I believe I quit near/around 2005) and the only following I've done with FFXIV is catching a few threads on the front page when they pop into the recent activity list, so some of the above is based on my sketchy memory at best, and assumptions at worst. Don't get me wrong though - I'm thrilled that a new FF MMO is on its way, and I can't wait to see how it turns out at release given that XI was my first MMORPG and still holds some of my fondest memories of gaming, but I'm merely doing my best to avoid hype in either direction, and patiently waiting for the final product to show itself.
At any rate, I hope any of that wall of text can help someone, should they choose to read through it...
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing. Oscar Wilde
It is a penalty for playing something for to many hours in a set amount of time.
Since everyone starts off at the same rate of xp gain, the system only comes into play after the eigth hour at which point that amount of experience gained is penalizes by up to 50%.
No one is forced to stop playing or log off, but it is a penalty.
I still think that a lot of the delays are related to the PS3 launch getting pushed back (auction house not present, no end game, surplus xp, etc.) It seems like SE is saving some game changers to help out the PS3 users (which is a good idea imo) I don't think this game will officially be launched until the PS3 version comes out, I'm betting that a lot of things will be added around that time.
So they plan on releasing the PC version even though they know it's not ready, needs alot of work and a big chunk of content just isnt there, and try to mask the fact that that they're using the PC version as a paid beta by introducing a retarded surplus system and trying to pawn it off like its some kind of gift to casuals.
Then they act all surprised when alot of people have a problem with that, and go all emo on twitter and start blaming those damn foreigners for the negative reception to this, even though the whole "1 hr a day to avoid surplus" estimate was a pretty good one and fairly close to the official explanation of 8 hrs a week, especially considering that SE didn't even bother explaining it until it got out of hand, because their idea of PR and listening to the community is pretty much telling everyone to go F@&* themselves while they do their own thing.
I giggled when I saw 'those damn foreigners' lol... that was the first impression I got when I saw the article on ZAM.
But yeah... what you said, pretty much spot on with what I think the real reasoning is behind a lot of what is going on.
"People are so stuck in vertical progression (quantitative) that they freak at the sight of horizontal progression (qualitative)?
I don't know how much I like this system, but some people are missing the point. Same way they were missing the point about jumping and swimming. SE creates the ground rules. They create the FFXIV universe. In that regard, it's like the Matrix.
No other mmo (modernly) places a cap on xp, they usually just give bonus xp to casuals. But, SE wants to create a game where one of the fundamental rules is capping progression. The game is specifically designed where YOU HAVE TO USE OTHER CLASSES. You will not be able to complete content unless you have abilities from multiple classes. Other mmos, it's the exact opposite. Each class is a self contained whole.
Soooo.. people are comparing apples and oranges. Yes other mmo's allow you to play each class the way you want and for how long. But dont' forget the fact that you're playing ONE CLASS. In FFXIV, you're playing ONE CHARACTER. SE is designing a game where you "forced" to horizontally progress your CHARACTER, instead of a specific class, by putting limitations.
The mistake has always been thinking that you are your class. No No No, you are your CHARACTER which is a combination of different classes. To make this vision work, I guess they feel the need to compel people to use other classes.
I'm sure there are a million reasons (no end game content, buying time for PS3 release, preventing reaching level cap in 1 month, etc.).
Make no mistake, switching classes early and often is something that SE wants to make part and parcel of the game. They are saying to potential subscribers "HEY, GET READY TO BE PLAYING MULTIPLE CLASSES DURING THE WEEK. NOT ONLY THAT, WE'RE GOING TO FORCE YOU TO DO IT!" It's sad, but i'm having a tough time getting really angry about it. IT's like, i know the ground rules, the only thing left is, "are you in or are you out?"
@DesertFox - Perhaps I'm misreading the article. However, it does not sound like you get double XP and then drop to 100% xp as you have stated. This is the way the system reads to me, just based off of that article on ffxivcore:
0 - 8 hrs of gameplay - 100% class and character experience levels
8-15 hrs of gameplay - character experience slowly drops to some number(confused on the character experience part. The article states it continues to drop and is not dependent on class)
8-15 hrs of gameplay - class experience per each class drops to zero, not 100%.
15+ hrs on a single class and you get no class experience at all. Your class is considred "fatigued." You may still get character experience though. Instead of gaining class experience it is stored as some sort of alternative XP, aka surplus. So you are no longer earning physical XP on your class. It gets put into a bank. That bank currently has no use. They are still determining what to do with the xp stored in your surplus.
I haven't put more than 15+ hrs in a single class in beta so I can't comment from any type of experience. I played every class and it wasn't really noticeable to me.
Edit - I think people are confusing the words surplus and fatigue. Komoto states "Surplus experience is currently not being used." IMO this states that there currently is no "bonus or "rested" xp. In fact you do start with 100% xp and it slowly drops to 0% xp. Once you reach 0% xp, everything you would have earned it stored into "surplus" until you switch classes and the 7 day timer resets. Eventually they will have a plan to activate surplus in some manner.
"People are so stuck in vertical progression (quantitative) that they freak at the sight of horizontal progression (qualitative)?
I don't know how much I like this system, but some people are missing the point. Same way they were missing the point about jumping and swimming. SE creates the ground rules. They create the FFXIV universe. In that regard, it's like the Matrix.
No other mmo (modernly) places a cap on xp, they usually just give bonus xp to casuals. But, SE wants to create a game where one of the fundamental rules is capping progression. The game is specifically designed where YOU HAVE TO USE OTHER CLASSES. You will not be able to complete content unless you have abilities from multiple classes. Other mmos, it's the exact opposite. Each class is a self contained whole.
Soooo.. people are comparing apples and oranges. Yes other mmo's allow you to play each class the way you want and for how long. But dont' forget the fact that you're playing ONE CLASS. In FFXIV, you're playing ONE CHARACTER. SE is designing a game where you "forced" to horizontally progress your CHARACTER, instead of a specific class, by putting limitations.
The mistake has always been thinking that you are your class. No No No, you are your CHARACTER which is a combination of different classes. To make this vision work, I guess they feel the need to compel people to use other classes.
I'm sure there are a million reasons (no end game content, buying time for PS3 release, preventing reaching level cap in 1 month, etc.).
Make no mistake, switching classes early and often is something that SE wants to make part and parcel of the game. They are saying to potential subscribers "HEY, GET READY TO BE PLAYING MULTIPLE CLASSES DURING THE WEEK. NOT ONLY THAT, WE'RE GOING TO FORCE YOU TO DO IT!" It's sad, but i'm having a tough time getting really angry about it. IT's like, i know the ground rules, the only thing left is, "are you in or are you out?"
I see what SE is doing, but I think their implementation was the wrong choice. The caps don't seem like a bad idea, but how they weaved together classes and skills makes it look really bad.
"People are so stuck in vertical progression (quantitative) that they freak at the sight of horizontal progression (qualitative)?
I don't know how much I like this system, but some people are missing the point. Same way they were missing the point about jumping and swimming. SE creates the ground rules. They create the FFXIV universe. In that regard, it's like the Matrix.
No other mmo (modernly) places a cap on xp, they usually just give bonus xp to casuals. But, SE wants to create a game where one of the fundamental rules is capping progression. The game is specifically designed where YOU HAVE TO USE OTHER CLASSES. You will not be able to complete content unless you have abilities from multiple classes. Other mmos, it's the exact opposite. Each class is a self contained whole.
Soooo.. people are comparing apples and oranges. Yes other mmo's allow you to play each class the way you want and for how long. But dont' forget the fact that you're playing ONE CLASS. In FFXIV, you're playing ONE CHARACTER. SE is designing a game where you "forced" to horizontally progress your CHARACTER, instead of a specific class, by putting limitations.
The mistake has always been thinking that you are your class. No No No, you are your CHARACTER which is a combination of different classes. To make this vision work, I guess they feel the need to compel people to use other classes.
I'm sure there are a million reasons (no end game content, buying time for PS3 release, preventing reaching level cap in 1 month, etc.).
Make no mistake, switching classes early and often is something that SE wants to make part and parcel of the game. They are saying to potential subscribers "HEY, GET READY TO BE PLAYING MULTIPLE CLASSES DURING THE WEEK. NOT ONLY THAT, WE'RE GOING TO FORCE YOU TO DO IT!" It's sad, but i'm having a tough time getting really angry about it. IT's like, i know the ground rules, the only thing left is, "are you in or are you out?"
I could never have explained myself better than this.100% genious.This is exactly how i feel.
Im so confused at the people that are still saying "froce me to level other classes" even after the correct info is now explained. Even terribly easy games like WOW do not give you 100% bouns exp all the time (witch im sure the WOW peps would love by the way). Once the rest exp is done on a toon on WOW it done until you stop playing some more. And secondly its not the exp system forcing you to lv up other classes... its the game its self... Everyone has known since this game was in early development that you can and should customize your own class by using all skills from the class pool.. That is what is suppose to be cool about this game, you kind of get to make your own classes by putting together skills from all the classes.. to anyone that wants to play as only one class all the way to endgame.... Enjoy... But I will not need you in my group at all... ever
It's NOT bonus XP. Re-read the post. You start at 100% and it goes down from there..again NOT bonus xp. You have a reading comprehension issue if you think otherwise.
One thing I'm confused about is this: (quoted from the source on the first post)
"However, experience points are not specific to any class and therefore the decrease in experience points is not affected by changing classes.
............................
Also, since experience points fatigue carries over despite changing weapons, we plan to make it not so harsh."
So... which is it?
Does it affect you regardless of if you change classes? (changing your weapon changes your class).
- Does it affect your physical lvl during that entire 8hour period of combat, and calculates differently for your class exp?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something? But those two lines, taken from the same statement, seem to be at odds with each other.
Unfortunately, in beta, I mainly played the caster classes (of which there are only 2), so I met the fatigue limit fairly easily. The caster classes don't seem to get a ton of benefit from playing the combat classes, as the combat classes require a very different stat build (earned through your physical lvl, does not change w/ weapon). So, while there are some very low lvl skills that might help (TP heal & defense buff), most of the benefit will be gained through only 2 classes (which it is very easy to combat for 8 hours on each, during a week).
I can't comment on the war classes, but they seem to have an easier time with this system than the caster classes.
One thing I'm confused about is this: (quoted from the source on the first post)
"However, experience points are not specific to any class and therefore the decrease in experience points is not affected by changing classes.
............................
Also, since experience points fatigue carries over despite changing weapons, we plan to make it not so harsh."
So... which is it?
Does it affect you regardless of if you change classes? (changing your weapon changes your class).
- Does it affect your physical lvl during that entire 8hour period of combat, and calculates differently for your class exp?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something? But those two lines, taken from the same statement, seem to be at odds with each other.
Unfortunately, in beta, I mainly played the caster classes (of which there are only 2), so I met the fatigue limit fairly easily. The caster classes don't seem to get a ton of benefit from playing the combat classes, as the combat classes require a very different stat build (earned through your physical lvl, does not change w/ weapon). So, while there are some very low lvl skills that might help (TP heal & defense buff), most of the benefit will be gained through only 2 classes (which it is very easy to combat for 8 hours on each, during a week).
I can't comment on the war classes, but they seem to have an easier time with this system than the caster classes.
Skill Points is to Class Rank
as Experience Points are th Physical Level.
You're physical level is the same as any other game (i.e. lvl 80 Warrior in WoW), you're class rank in FFXIV is the level of your specific class.
I know it sounds confusing but there are two levels in FFXIV. The Surplus system puts a cap on your Physical level. You get 8 hours to lvl up your physical class at 100%. AFter that, you get 7 more hours where it slowly goes from 100% to 0.
That means, after 15 hours, you will not get any experience poitns to increase your physical level for the entire week. Conversely, if you use one class for 15 hours, you will not get any skill points towards your CLASS rank for that week either.
But, if you change to another class, you can get 8 hours of skill points followed by 7 hours of diminishing returns. Because you already used up all your hours for the physical level, your physical experience will remain at zero until the following week.
TLDR: SE is artificially capping your physical level from week to week so that you can't grind your way to lvl 50 (max) in 2 weeks. They are also making you balance out your character by forcing you to use multiple classes during the week. You can't play Marauder for the whole week because after 15 hours, you will no longer get any Marauder skill points or new abilities, etc.
Questions remain whether the timers start while you're logged in game or when you're actually fighting something (active mode). Either way, it's a case of "daddy's knows best." For some people, that's a little arrogant when the point of this game is to make money. Pissing people off and dictating what they can and can't do is a bad way to make money.
Comments
Another person who doesnt understand at all.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
I don't like the systems AS EXPLAINED by SE so far, but I do have a CE and plan on being at launch. But I do find it strange you told them to "have an open mind" when you say things like that about money?
One of the very good ways in FFXI to get money was farming. Just killing mobs and reselling drops. Boss camping. If you were in a linkshell, you didn't even need that much money as most guildied did things for cost. Half the time they even had extra mats to use so money really wasn't that much of an issue. And trying to gather ores in places like Ifrit and such were a pain when there were tons of others doing it on a few nodes, which was very common. You know when money came into play in FFXI?
When you had s u b s to pay for. That's when the game got cha-chingy.
If you were a BST, SMN, RDM, PUP, yo umade all the money you needed solo. If you were a BLM, you did BCNM parties and charged a percentage of what dropped or straight fee for the run you spilit with 5 other BLMs.
Crafting was actually not very lucrative unless you did it all the time and sold cheap. The people in the big shells made most of the money cause they got all the rare drops from dragons and such. Which they got because they were.. killing things with their toons.
The not being like WoW comment is funny because half the fans who like FFXIV are saying "Hey, Wow had the same exact type of system as this.. why is everyone upset now?" lol
"TO MICHAEL!"
"
First off, the main concept behind FFXIV is allowing those players with little time on their hands to play effectively, and game balance is based off of that. Furthermore, it is being designed to not give those with more time on their hands to play an unfair advantage. Because of that, systems such as Guardian’s Favor (a bonus to Guildleves) have been implemented to make leveling in the short-term easier than leveling in the long-term.
To achieve this balance, the amount of possible skill/experience points earned after a certain period of time has a threshold. Think of it as real-life “fatigue” from working at improving your skills via battle *(aka. No one could train ad nauseam in the real world with no ill effects).
Within the first eight hours of play, you can earn 100% experience. The seven hour period following will see your possible experience gradually approach zero.
This system is on a weekly timer. After a week has passed since you began skilling that particular weapon, the timer will reset. It will start anew when you skill up again.
Any experience earned past that point is saved as “surplus.” There is surplus for each class, and if you begin to see it please consider playing another class and adjust accordingly.
However, experience points are not specific to any class and therefore the decrease in experience points is not affected by changing classes.
That’s how the system stands as of right now.
"
Character Experience
0 - 8 hrs: 100% exp earned
8 - 15 hrs: The experience earned approaches zero.
Class Experience
0 - 8 hrs: 100% experience earned
8 - 15 hrs: The experience earned approaches zero.
Class timers are independent.
I don't really know if this is a good or a bad thing. It would be nice if SE offered multiple character slots with the basic subscription.
You understand that past levle 12 there are no vendor bought items? no armor or weapons or potions, everything is gained through player crafting, so gathering would be a good source of income, as for grinding monster drops for loot.. with this system you grind even more, you get less xp that means you will be killing certain mobs a hell of a lot longer getting a lot more loot.
I dont get your point and what you were trying to point out? This system does not affect farming mobs for money in anyway, if anything it means you would make a lot more money per level, cause you are killing a lott more mobs.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Whyd o you need more character slots?
You switch classes by switching weapons, there are no clas limits, you really dont need more then one character since you can play every class with your single character. however you can makke more then one toon.
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Oh believe me I understand, I've been following this game for a long time and I dont plan on canceling my preorder, but to try and defend a system that punishes people who want to focus on one class mostly, or invest more time into playing and suddenly run out of time to play... and friends who ask if you can come as healer to party... nah sorry guys SE decided I've finished gaining levels on that class.
Did I plan on trying more then one class and mixing so I can mix skills also? yes, is there any reason whatsoever to defend this retarded system? no.
Meh, I keep seeing topics with 'surplus' and 'fatigue' in its' title but I've been to lazy to read about it till now.
I was in beta and never ran into this problem. I really don't care that this system is there, if I end up getting 0% on a certain class then I'll just change to another one or farm.... I'm still wondering if the 8 hour timer starts as soon as you log on or if it just runs when you are in combat. I probably wouldn't like the system very much if it started the second I logged in because I would feel forced to rush and grind mobs.
I still think that a lot of the delays are related to the PS3 launch getting pushed back (auction house not present, no end game, surplus xp, etc.) It seems like SE is saving some game changers to help out the PS3 users (which is a good idea imo) I don't think this game will officially be launched until the PS3 version comes out, I'm betting that a lot of things will be added around that time.
I honestly don't see the system sticking around, since the majority of people that played FFXI had a 'ton' of free time (you pretty much had to). I think a lot of people just don't want to be group dependent 100% of the time but still want to invest a lot of time in it.
Nevermind about having to mix classes to be effective. What about people who mainly like to craft? this applies to crafting and gathering as well and then they go and make the economy craft dependant .
There's only 2 mage classes as well so you get 16 hours of un-penalised levelling between 2 classes a week then you have to wait hours for your stats to change never mind needing a completely different set of gear.
How people can even compare this to the rested system in other games is beyond me.
After reading the FF14 posts on this website every day and over hearing talk in my guild chat and general chat in the mmos I frequent. I think this game is getting close enough to release that alot of people are starting to realize that FF14 and a few other decent looking mmos are coming out soon. And many people are affraid that some of there online friends and game communite will be going to try new games.. And for whatever reason they will not be joining them due to their computer hardware isnt good enough to run newer games, don't care for the game everyone is running to, or just are affaid that they might not be "the man" at some of the newer games coming out. I do think that these three reasons lead alot of people to frequent fourms and general chat in games to pull on any negitive string they can find on any new game to try to keep as many people playing the game they are playing for as long as possible. I for one can not continue to play the same 4 or 5 mmos over and over and over agian. Call me a fanboy or whatev but I love trying new games... My computer rocks and can play anything and I have an open mind... If a game sucks after I try it, I simply quit playin it and move on to something else.. But I can tell anyone this that I refuse to rate any game until I play the game it myself.... Not alpha or beta or trial... the finished released game.
Editing quotes is screwy here, sorry.
Anyways where did you get this info? These items were not present in the least in the latest beta (there were a few more finished products in the prior I will admit), but they were replaced by crafting components in this last beta. A lot of components could be bought through NPCs where finished items could not be.
From the info we have to go on it's very hard to figure out just what's going to be available for purchase from the vendors tbh.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
How is this, in any way, simillar to rested XP? You gain 100%xp (normal xp) for 8hour, after this, in the upcoming 7hour, you're xp is degrading to 0% (No xp at all) and turn into "surplus" which has not been talked about.
In the other hand, rested Xp is you have 100%normal xp, you rest and gain 200% xp for the amount of time it has been accumulated while you rested. Once it's finish you still gain the same amount of xp as you started.
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No I'm not in beta, I juged the slow combat from recent video on youtube. Pugilist seem faster paced then other class which is why I like them. Ranger seem a little bit of troublesome to play which is a turn off. Simple as that.
About playing another class is my choice, I don't want to be FORCED to do so. Of course, if one skill in X class interest me I'll go for it but I dont want to be FORCED to do so. And in the end, after I got the skill I want and nothing in the other class interest me, what I'm suspose to do? Oh right, I'm forced to play another class because SE failed it.
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Wow, Self Suffisent player. Damn, That's nice. So it doesn't bother you because you plan to lvl each and every single class in the game, good for you. Does this mean I should to the same as you? Nop. Am I forced to do the same as you? Yes. This is where it become stupid.
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Sharing stat, awesome but you can't max each stat for each class which suck. Say your a Pugilist focusing on Dex/agi/end then switch to A caster who sue ENd/Int/Psy, yep, you're about as much screwed as once you started playing. Obviously, the stat I talked about are just a exemple.
As for the weapon, You're forced to have weapon with you to change classes. Once you've maxed , let say, your 2 main class, you're forced to use another one to progress in the game.
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About crafting and gathering profession. It may interest me depending on how it work, if it's as boring as other game crafting, I won't do it. And if I'm forced to do so, like it's suggested right now, It's just going to turn me off compeltly lol. Crafting and gathering aren't really interesting unless well implemented in a game. So far I know too little of this to even judge it but well, I'll have to see what happen. The point stay, I don't want to be FORCED to do so if I don't want to do it.
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Being close minded? Cmon, I am open minded and when something is totally absurd then I'll talk about it. The game itself seem amazing, just this thing is comppletly ruining the game experience.It's forcing you to do something else then what you like. It's eliminating the way you should enjoy the game.This idea is already turbning alot of player off. A game is susposed to be fun and enjoyable, once you feel forced to do something, it's no longer fun.
I don't play any MMO right now because they'll boring, FFXIV was the next one I was going to try until I saw this. 'll wait and see how SE deal with it but it's surte I won't be paying a monthly fee to play like THEY want me to play.
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Of course, Beta is BEta, thing are going to change. Even after launch, it might change. If they completly scrap this idea and turn it into reted xp similar to Wow, I'll be pre-ordering the CE box right after... If they're still going to limit how you should play well, screw them and I won't be playing. Simple as that. Even FFXI is better then this ( even fi i played it for a 2month after launch) Have to lvl other job like you want is better then being forced to play a different class you dont want.
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"Yeah maybe they dont have some community manager who is hired to hold your hands, and jerk you off just to calm you down everytime you throw a hissy fit on the forum s, but you cant say they arent listening to feedback, espcailly since their known issues section of the patchnotes addresses every major complaint, do you people expect them to change things overnight, the game isnt even out yet."
Holy shit, you said you were open minded? hahaha. Community management is a part of MMO game, they aren't doing it and making bad reputation for themself by not knowing how to deal with it. This problem about the fatigue/surplus system is a proof that SE has barely no experience when ti come to this. One of their devs said something harsh about foreigner ( aka us) which is totally non sense to do in this kind of market.
Blizzard was intending to do something similar in WoW, player contested and they scrapped it and changed it into the rested system which work perfectly now. This is WHY Wow is one of the best game in the MMO market and still hasn't be beat down by anything else. Blizzard LISTEN to their community and change accordingly to what should be better and more fun for the player.
If SE can't do this, too bad for them but FFXIV will be another niche market game where retarded fan boy will play. That's all.
They have all the power in their hand to make the game the best experience for the player, to get mor eplayer, to keep the player and make shitload of money. if they're going to screw themself with ridiculous way of limiting how a player should play because they don't want player to do something, so be it.
In the end, it's all about how they will manage to deal with the community. MMO are a market o make shitload of cash, you succed or you fail. That's it.
There is some confustion on how the Surplus/Fatigue works because of 2 conflicting peices of info
on one hand you have the surplus thing is a rest system... once you eat up the rest xp/sp you get the base xp and sp
On the other hand you have it where after 15 hours you earn ZERO xp and sp... switching classes will let you get SP for that class, but you still wouldn't gain XP.
what he was saying was playing another character once the full 15 hour fatigue kicks in.
So they plan on releasing the PC version even though they know it's not ready, needs alot of work and a big chunk of content just isnt there, and try to mask the fact that that they're using the PC version as a paid beta by introducing a retarded surplus system and trying to pawn it off like its some kind of gift to casuals.
Then they act all surprised when alot of people have a problem with that, and go all emo on twitter and start blaming those damn foreigners for the negative reception to this, even though the whole "1 hr a day to avoid surplus" estimate was a pretty good one and fairly close to the official explanation of 8 hrs a week, especially considering that SE didn't even bother explaining it until it got out of hand, because their idea of PR and listening to the community is pretty much telling everyone to go F@&* themselves while they do their own thing.
The way that would fix it or have it work for me would be as follows:
First 8 hours are fine.
Every hour past that you'd be given a rank of the surplus buff.
The surplus buff would decrease your exp gained by 10% per rank of the buff, but would increase exp gained on an alternate class by 5%.
Playing an alternate class would gradually reduce your "fatigue" and eventually reduce you back to where you start the first 8 hours, thus letting you play 8 hours on your first class.
I.E. You play a gladiator for 10 hours. You have 2 ranks of the surplus buff so you gain 20% less exp. You switch over to Conjurer and gain 10% bonus exp for the first hour and 5% bonus exp for the second hour you play. After that second hour your surplus buff has faded. Now you can either do two things: 1. Go back to your Gladiator and play at 100% exp gain (of which after an hour you'll gain the surplus buff rank 1, reducing your exp to 90%, and so on) or 2. Keep playing an alt and every hour that you play on the alt, the "fatigue hours" that you racked up would eventually dwindle down to 0, making it so you can eventually play your Gladiator for 8 hours without any penalties.
Yes, that was what I was getting at. Some players will hate the idea of getting 0 experience for their physical levels, and offering multiple character slots will still allow them to achieve value for their time, but not have an " unfair advantage ".
Where is the report for rested experience?
I'm prettttttty positive this guy was exaggerating to make a point, and it flew over both your heads by 2,865 miles.
Ninety-six was an arbitrary number of hours; simply a number that far exceeded any "surplus" - or whatever they want to call it - experience period and left the player on the other side. His question still remains unanswered at that. After reading through this entire thread, however, I'd assume that killing a boar that in the first hour gives you 1000 exp would give you 500 exp 96 hours later. In that sense, this system is a "100% bonus" as some have put it, or the "normal exp is 50%" as others have.
Regardless, one thing is clear: SE has failed miserably on clarifying the subject and should've considered the ramifications of such a convoluted system in the first place given that so many out there have never seen, played, or understood FFXI's class system. On the other end, former FFXI players continually fail at citing examples of why secondary or sub-jobs are so important, and also only offer ridiculous explanations themselves.
It's quite simple, really, so I'll explain from what experience I had as a 75/37 bard/white mage in FFXI. Every character in FFXI could have a main job and a sub-job. Playing a main without a sub was possible, sure, but in doing so you lost stats and abilities. Those stats and abilities were quite significant given that at any time, you receieved 50% of the main job's level as your sub job's level. So say you're level 20, your sub is level 10.
Now, bard was a buff/support class, with little to no combat skills and as such, worked best with a sub-job that added further support abilities. Understand that the sub-job abilities will always be quite weak in comparison to a main job ability, so the sub is there merely to enhance the main's abilities. That said, white mage at the time I played was far and away the best option to bolster my role as a bard given that it gave me some small heals, and buffed my stats in areas essential to my main class. Sure, I could've subbed warrior, but what am I going to do; taunt the mob and tank in my weak armor and extremely low health pool while I whack at it with my dagger? I was way better off with cure and curaga which, while weak, definitely helped to save my groups after a stray hit nearly killed my healer, or an AoE hit my group and I could help the party get their health back to safe levels more quickly before another AoE would land.
To give another quick example, another combo I had to 75 was thief/ninja. Thief was a class that required lots of dexterity and agility (which determined my damage and dodge), both of which were bolstered by my ninja sub. Thieves in a party are at their best when helping to keep focus on a tank, and absolutely could not survive direct attacks for any period of time, and given the potential of mistakes with sneak/trick attacks (skills that deal high damage and re-direct threat), as well as their high damage output, pulling threat from the tank was a definite possibility at times. As such, the ninja sub-job also served as a way to avoid damage, given that it gave the skill (I think the name was) utsusemi: ichi, which gave you shadows to avoid a certain number of hits. It was essentially a dodge ability that you cast before you took damage, to avoid taking damage. Without the ninja sub, the thief would not only put out far less damage which would hurt the tank's ability to hold threat while the group maximized damage elsewhere, but certainly die more often slowing down the group, and losing the player experience for that death.
There's plenty of other examples, such as paladin/warrior which gave a paladin tank more health and another taunt, or red mage/black mage which gave a support role debuffer/buffer additional intelligence for landing offensive spells and a far greater mana pool, but the point is that if FFXIV is going to continue with a system similar to that of XI, every last person who plays will emphasize leveling their appropriate sub, which it seems this system can only help with. I won't say I agree with its implementation, particularly once your appropriate sub-jobs are at their maximum necessary level (half of your main) and you wish to focus on your main job, but I don't see it as a deal-breaker.
All of that said; take my comments with a grain of salt. It's been years since I last played FFXI (I believe I quit near/around 2005) and the only following I've done with FFXIV is catching a few threads on the front page when they pop into the recent activity list, so some of the above is based on my sketchy memory at best, and assumptions at worst. Don't get me wrong though - I'm thrilled that a new FF MMO is on its way, and I can't wait to see how it turns out at release given that XI was my first MMORPG and still holds some of my fondest memories of gaming, but I'm merely doing my best to avoid hype in either direction, and patiently waiting for the final product to show itself.
At any rate, I hope any of that wall of text can help someone, should they choose to read through it...
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw
What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
Oscar Wilde
It is a penalty for playing something for to many hours in a set amount of time.
Since everyone starts off at the same rate of xp gain, the system only comes into play after the eigth hour at which point that amount of experience gained is penalizes by up to 50%.
No one is forced to stop playing or log off, but it is a penalty.
I giggled when I saw 'those damn foreigners' lol... that was the first impression I got when I saw the article on ZAM.
But yeah... what you said, pretty much spot on with what I think the real reasoning is behind a lot of what is going on.
Requiem from FFXIVcore forums said it best.
"People are so stuck in vertical progression (quantitative) that they freak at the sight of horizontal progression (qualitative)?
I don't know how much I like this system, but some people are missing the point. Same way they were missing the point about jumping and swimming. SE creates the ground rules. They create the FFXIV universe. In that regard, it's like the Matrix.
No other mmo (modernly) places a cap on xp, they usually just give bonus xp to casuals. But, SE wants to create a game where one of the fundamental rules is capping progression. The game is specifically designed where YOU HAVE TO USE OTHER CLASSES. You will not be able to complete content unless you have abilities from multiple classes. Other mmos, it's the exact opposite. Each class is a self contained whole.
Soooo.. people are comparing apples and oranges. Yes other mmo's allow you to play each class the way you want and for how long. But dont' forget the fact that you're playing ONE CLASS. In FFXIV, you're playing ONE CHARACTER. SE is designing a game where you "forced" to horizontally progress your CHARACTER, instead of a specific class, by putting limitations.
The mistake has always been thinking that you are your class. No No No, you are your CHARACTER which is a combination of different classes. To make this vision work, I guess they feel the need to compel people to use other classes.
I'm sure there are a million reasons (no end game content, buying time for PS3 release, preventing reaching level cap in 1 month, etc.).
Make no mistake, switching classes early and often is something that SE wants to make part and parcel of the game. They are saying to potential subscribers "HEY, GET READY TO BE PLAYING MULTIPLE CLASSES DURING THE WEEK. NOT ONLY THAT, WE'RE GOING TO FORCE YOU TO DO IT!" It's sad, but i'm having a tough time getting really angry about it. IT's like, i know the ground rules, the only thing left is, "are you in or are you out?"
@DesertFox - Perhaps I'm misreading the article. However, it does not sound like you get double XP and then drop to 100% xp as you have stated. This is the way the system reads to me, just based off of that article on ffxivcore:
0 - 8 hrs of gameplay - 100% class and character experience levels
8-15 hrs of gameplay - character experience slowly drops to some number(confused on the character experience part. The article states it continues to drop and is not dependent on class)
8-15 hrs of gameplay - class experience per each class drops to zero, not 100%.
15+ hrs on a single class and you get no class experience at all. Your class is considred "fatigued." You may still get character experience though. Instead of gaining class experience it is stored as some sort of alternative XP, aka surplus. So you are no longer earning physical XP on your class. It gets put into a bank. That bank currently has no use. They are still determining what to do with the xp stored in your surplus.
I haven't put more than 15+ hrs in a single class in beta so I can't comment from any type of experience. I played every class and it wasn't really noticeable to me.
Edit - I think people are confusing the words surplus and fatigue. Komoto states "Surplus experience is currently not being used." IMO this states that there currently is no "bonus or "rested" xp. In fact you do start with 100% xp and it slowly drops to 0% xp. Once you reach 0% xp, everything you would have earned it stored into "surplus" until you switch classes and the 7 day timer resets. Eventually they will have a plan to activate surplus in some manner.
I see what SE is doing, but I think their implementation was the wrong choice. The caps don't seem like a bad idea, but how they weaved together classes and skills makes it look really bad.
I could never have explained myself better than this.100% genious.This is exactly how i feel.
It's NOT bonus XP. Re-read the post. You start at 100% and it goes down from there..again NOT bonus xp. You have a reading comprehension issue if you think otherwise.
One thing I'm confused about is this: (quoted from the source on the first post)
"However, experience points are not specific to any class and therefore the decrease in experience points is not affected by changing classes.
............................
Also, since experience points fatigue carries over despite changing weapons, we plan to make it not so harsh."
So... which is it?
Does it affect you regardless of if you change classes? (changing your weapon changes your class).
- Does it affect your physical lvl during that entire 8hour period of combat, and calculates differently for your class exp?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something? But those two lines, taken from the same statement, seem to be at odds with each other.
Unfortunately, in beta, I mainly played the caster classes (of which there are only 2), so I met the fatigue limit fairly easily. The caster classes don't seem to get a ton of benefit from playing the combat classes, as the combat classes require a very different stat build (earned through your physical lvl, does not change w/ weapon). So, while there are some very low lvl skills that might help (TP heal & defense buff), most of the benefit will be gained through only 2 classes (which it is very easy to combat for 8 hours on each, during a week).
I can't comment on the war classes, but they seem to have an easier time with this system than the caster classes.
Skill Points is to Class Rank
as Experience Points are th Physical Level.
You're physical level is the same as any other game (i.e. lvl 80 Warrior in WoW), you're class rank in FFXIV is the level of your specific class.
I know it sounds confusing but there are two levels in FFXIV. The Surplus system puts a cap on your Physical level. You get 8 hours to lvl up your physical class at 100%. AFter that, you get 7 more hours where it slowly goes from 100% to 0.
That means, after 15 hours, you will not get any experience poitns to increase your physical level for the entire week. Conversely, if you use one class for 15 hours, you will not get any skill points towards your CLASS rank for that week either.
But, if you change to another class, you can get 8 hours of skill points followed by 7 hours of diminishing returns. Because you already used up all your hours for the physical level, your physical experience will remain at zero until the following week.
TLDR: SE is artificially capping your physical level from week to week so that you can't grind your way to lvl 50 (max) in 2 weeks. They are also making you balance out your character by forcing you to use multiple classes during the week. You can't play Marauder for the whole week because after 15 hours, you will no longer get any Marauder skill points or new abilities, etc.
Questions remain whether the timers start while you're logged in game or when you're actually fighting something (active mode). Either way, it's a case of "daddy's knows best." For some people, that's a little arrogant when the point of this game is to make money. Pissing people off and dictating what they can and can't do is a bad way to make money.