ufortunately those that truly love sanbox games are very few. most mmo players these days need constant change and excitment (theme park). 10/15 years ago when mmos were just starting most games were sandbox by default mostly because that's all they could offer. basic features, basic mechanics, basic enviroments. then more and more features were invented/added and the newer games evolved into stream line, much more popular, spoon fed roller coaster ride games we now call "them park".
most of those asking "what happened to sandbox games?" are only nostalgic, but the truth is that very few of us would be completely suddisfied in a real plain old sanbox.
it takes very simple expectations and high immagination to truly enjoy a sandbox and most of us have long lost either. the problem with sophistication is that it becomes extremely hard to enjoy the simple things again.
Lol men why do you need sandbox games? Sandbox means as close to rl as possible. And for us fat modern people it's something like Second Life. But you're getting boring of it pretty soon because all you wanna be great heroes and not just another john does. And you can't be a hero w/o fighting. But fighting means pvp, full loot (yeah, what the point in sandbox w/o full loot?) and other bad things, which most of us hate. So why do you need sandbox games? Play WoW - it's the best for us.
Or play Darkfall, where you gotta be strong, mean, heartless and work hard to become a true hero of a dark fantasy game. But you hate DF, because it shows pretty obvious that most of us aren't heroes, but fat stupid modern people...
If I wanted to be the one and only hero, I'd play a single player RPG where the game is designed to revolve around me, start at me, and stop at me.
And sandbox doesn't mean as close to real life as possible. It means that players are given the liberty to create their own experience. I want to be "insert proffesion here" and you can make a satisfying game experience doing that. Crafting, fishing, gathering, politicing, and other non combat related trades aren't just a side show to the hack n' slash game experience.
Also, sandboxes don't have to be all about PvP or even have full loot. Players in EVE, Ultima Online, and to a certian extent....Lineage 2, offered things for you to do without ever having to set foot in PvP. You could never attack a single person and still have access to endgame content and riches. Lineage 2 is a good example of a PvP focused "sandbox'ish" game that didn't involve full loot.
One of the other reasons you probably don't see many more Sandbox games is because it gives the developers FULL control of your game experience. They release the content when they see fit, and are able to proactively plan and control how its consumed by the public. Since sandbox games give much of that control to the players....its harder for the developers to plan and deploy. Better for the game dev companies......not neccessarily for the players.
Lol men why do you need sandbox games? Sandbox means as close to rl as possible. And for us fat modern people it's something like Second Life. But you're getting boring of it pretty soon because all you wanna be great heroes and not just another john does. And you can't be a hero w/o fighting. But fighting means pvp, full loot (yeah, what the point in sandbox w/o full loot?) and other bad things, which most of us hate. So why do you need sandbox games? Play WoW - it's the best for us.
Or play Darkfall, where you gotta be strong, mean, heartless and work hard to become a true hero of a dark fantasy game. But you hate DF, because it shows pretty obvious that most of us aren't heroes, but fat stupid modern people...
I disagree. Sandbox games are as far from real life as it gets. Most of the world's population spend their lives being told what to do. First their parents, then their teachers, then their bosses order them about and assign them tasks to complete. People chase the weekly allowance, the good grades, and the almighty paycheck, progressing in an automated trudge from cradle to grave with little in the way of autonomy.
Themepark MMOs just offer the real life format in a speeded up pretend world. I can't comprehend why anyone likes it, except maybe those lucky few professionals who manage to earn a living without being subject to either their bosses or their customers. Must be some sort of slave mentality.
To me a sandbox offers freedom of class, appearance, and, more than anything else, progression. Quests in a game are fine by me, for those who want to do them. And sometimes I will do quests. But not if I have to. Not for long. I always end up quitting, no matter how much I like the rest of the game. Because to me, a questlog is just a big chore list, and I'm not even getting paid to do it.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
You can't stand one single detail amiss in a world of perfection and you thrash the game on all the forums you happen to have an account on because your sword is not flashy .
You have absolutely no hint what a Beta is - yet rush to get into them only to spew hatred on the above-mentioned forums about how bad the game is.
You have long lost the concept of good clean fun and turned PVP into PK. Oh how I loathe you for this. Go back to play fucking Counterstrike if your manhood needs a boost.
You have no idea of the costs involved in building up a game and turned so cheap you will not under any circumstance fork out 12E for a game that you know you like, waiting instead for it to crumble to a pathetic F2P Item Mall Online Multiplayer Game.
You specially have not even the slightest clue about what the technical background is during the development of a game yet rush to criticize the developers for their incompetence. Let me see YOU code a fucking Mine Sweeper and THEN talk shit about game development.
Not to mention the 'geniuses' who write entire articles and blogs based only on hear-say information and predict the game's "crap" without as much of a screenshot attached to prove their conclusions.
You all helped carve out the MMO landscape as it is today. And you DARE hate it? It’s YOUR mess.
Enough ranting. I`m going back to single-player sandboxes.
P.S.
Free To Play Gamers Movement?! Are you shitting me? What a fucking disgrace to the gamers community. Cheap-ass beggars, get a fucking job and support gaming!
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
ufortunately those that truly love sanbox games are very few. most mmo players these days need constant change and excitment (theme park). 10/15 years ago when mmos were just starting most games were sandbox by default mostly because that's all they could offer. basic features, basic mechanics, basic enviroments. then more and more features were invented/added and the newer games evolved into stream line, much more popular, spoon fed roller coaster ride games we now call "them park".
most of those asking "what happened to sandbox games?" are only nostalgic, but the truth is that very few of us would be completely suddisfied in a real plain old sanbox.
it takes very simple expectations and high immagination to truly enjoy a sandbox and most of us have long lost either. the problem with sophistication is that it becomes extremely hard to enjoy the simple things again.
I think there are more people looking for a deeper play experience than you think. A lot of people "put up" with the mediocre games on the market because there aren't any good options and games like WOW are extremely polished and popular.
However, I agree with much of what you said. Even still.....I think there is a market out there for people looking for a deeper and more rewarding MMO experience. It won't pull the attention of any of the AAA game dev companies.....but some smart indie company will hopefully find the right formula. All the ground work is laid out for a good sandbox.....just stop screwing with the formula by making it space ship only, first person view only, etc.
Slap the old UO ruleset and mechanics (Ultima Online: Rennesance) ontop of a Battle of Immortals / Diablo style environment with some nice textures and your golden. The people looking for this kind of experience aren't looking for Age of Conan graphics.
I think there are at least three standard definitions of "sandbox" that people use.
1. Builder sandboxs like Second Life shading into games like WurmOnline and Tale in the Desert.
2. PvP sandboxs.
3. "More non-linear than WoW" sandboxs which aren't really sandboxs but people call them that because no-one has come up with a better word. The Elder Scrolls games, if you take away the main quest, are a very good single player example of what i think this set of people (including me) mean when they use the word "sandboxy." Fallout is another good single player example. If you kept the main quest but made it the equivalent of the "endgame" then the fit would be even closer. (I modded Morrowind that way so the main quest didn't start until i was a guild or house leader). So basically you make a name for yourself in any of a dozen or so ways first and then you get called to be the big hero.
They don't make big money, therefore no major development house is going to touch them. Many smaller Indie houses keep trying, but as you mentioned, Earthrise, Dawntide, all the same, under-funded and very rough around the edges.
Last I checked, any triple A MMO that charges a subscription can make a very decent bank as long as they scale thier buisness and content with thier growth and don't slack off.
$15 dollars a month x a 500k subs is 7 million a month, thats alot of funding there.
WoW has like 10 million subs, thats 150 million a month.
Even the lowend 300k sub MMO's make 4.5 million a month, thats over 50 million a year. Thats pretty enormous budget for any market.
Every company wants to get into MMO's, they are just trying to find the laziest and most profitable way to do it. Developers don't care about you. Thats the main issue now a days.
You can't stand one single detail amiss in a world of perfection and you thrash the game on all the forums you happen to have an account on because your sword is not flashy .
You have absolutely no hint what a Beta is - yet rush to get into them only to spew hatred on the above-mentioned forums about how bad the game is.
You have long lost the concept of good clean fun and turned PVP into PK. Oh how I loathe you for this. Go back to play fucking Counterstrike if your manhood needs a boost.
You have no idea of the costs involved in building up a game and turned so cheap you will not under any circumstance fork out 12E for a game that you know you like, waiting instead for it to crumble to a pathetic F2P Item Mall Online Multiplayer Game.
You specially have not even the slightest clue about what the technical background is during the development of a game yet rush to criticize the developers for their incompetence. Let me see YOU code a fucking Mine Sweeper and THEN talk shit about game development.
Not to mention the 'geniuses' who write entire articles and blogs based only on hear-say information and predict the game's "crap" without as much of a screenshot attached to prove their conclusions.
You all helped carve out the MMO landscape as it is today. And you DARE hate it? It’s YOUR mess.
Enough ranting. I`m going back to single-player sandboxes.
P.S.
Free To Play Gamers Movement?! Are you shitting me? What a fucking disgrace to the gamers community. Cheap-ass beggars, get a fucking job and support gaming!
You make a lot of assumptions with absolutes....but I get where your coming from. This is the problem you get into when you start bringing in players from other generes that have different game mechanics than what tradditional MMOs have.
Of course a traditional FPS gamer thats dipped their toe into the MMO market with WOW will female dog and complain if your not able to make a considerable amount of progress in a 1/2 hr - 1 hr gaming session. Of course a single player RPGer will stomp their feet if they aren't able to keep up with the Jones' in a perpetual world. These gamers obviously liked the game genere they were used to playing for a reason. Now that WOW has taken on this BIG TENT approach to MMO Gaming, you have all these gamers advocating for new MMO games to be more like their previous gameing experience (FPS, Console, Casual, etc.)
By the very nature of including all these different type of gamers under one tent, it is impossible to please them all. Things were more clearly defined when MMO gaming was a niche based genere, instead of this main stream profit center.
ufortunately those that truly love sanbox games are very few. most mmo players these days need constant change and excitment (theme park). 10/15 years ago when mmos were just starting most games were sandbox by default mostly because that's all they could offer. basic features, basic mechanics, basic enviroments. then more and more features were invented/added and the newer games evolved into stream line, much more popular, spoon fed roller coaster ride games we now call "them park".
most of those asking "what happened to sandbox games?" are only nostalgic, but the truth is that very few of us would be completely suddisfied in a real plain old sanbox.
it takes very simple expectations and high immagination to truly enjoy a sandbox and most of us have long lost either. the problem with sophistication is that it becomes extremely hard to enjoy the simple things again.
I think there are more people looking for a deeper play experience than you think. A lot of people "put up" with the mediocre games on the market because there aren't any good options and games like WOW are extremely polished and popular.
However, I agree with much of what you said. Even still.....I think there is a market out there for people looking for a deeper and more rewarding MMO experience. It won't pull the attention of any of the AAA game dev companies.....but some smart indie company will hopefully find the right formula. All the ground work is laid out for a good sandbox.....just stop screwing with the formula by making it space ship only, first person view only, etc.
Slap the old UO ruleset and mechanics (Ultima Online: Rennesance) ontop of a Battle of Immortals / Diablo style environment with some nice textures and your golden. The people looking for this kind of experience aren't looking for Age of Conan graphics.
Sadly I think there are less people then you think.
For example right now on Asheron's Call official forums is a thread of people asking for AC to basically setup the whole game with mini quest hubs so that people don't have to actually explore the world and find quests.
People are lazy and a lot of them just want to log in and have their hand held through the leveling process and told where/what/when to do things. They don't want to explore and find their own fun.
They don't make big money, therefore no major development house is going to touch them. Many smaller Indie houses keep trying, but as you mentioned, Earthrise, Dawntide, all the same, under-funded and very rough around the edges.
Last I checked, any triple A MMO that charges a subscription can make a very decent bank as long as they scale thier buisness and content with thier growth and don't slack off.
$15 dollars a month x a 500k subs is 7 million a month, thats alot of funding there.
WoW has like 10 million subs, thats 150 million a month.
Even the lowend 300k sub MMO's make 4.5 million a month, thats over 50 million a year. Thats pretty enormous budget for any market.
Every company wants to get into MMO's, they are just trying to find the laziest and most profitable way to do it. Developers don't care about you. Thats the main issue now a days.
You've nailed the inflow of cash....but how about the outflow? With your software in a constant development cycle, how much are you spending on developers, Project Managers, Business Analysts, Data Analysts, Database Admins, Assistants, Hardware costs, licenses, overhead costs, marketing..etc, etc, etc. MOST of which you incur BEFORE your project earns one single red cent.
There are lots of places for the Electronic Arts, BioWares, NCSofts of the world to spend their money. Why should they invest that kind of capital into an unproven game that has to deal with the likes of World of Warcraft in an industry that is VERY competitive (take a look at how many MMOs are on this sites list....expecially considering most of them are F2P) and has turned out rotten egg after rotten egg?
Blizzard has opened the doors of MMO gameing to a market of people that consume their entertainment from everything from Farmville to EVE Online. When one of the Activision / Blizzard bosses came out and said that WOW is competing against Farmville for peoples time, he wasn't joking. Its sad that MMO gaming now has to lower the bar and get down on the level of social media games to hold those folks attention.....less they loose subscribers.
And PVE lovers you can just stay in high sec space and not have to worry bout getting killed really. My PVE buddy been in high sec for years and enjoying himself and he even made an alt to come PVP once he realized how tighlty coupled pvp is with the economy.
I don't want to play a game where non-PvP play is treated as the shallow end of the pool. Eve is a very entertaining looking game and I'm very happy to see it succeed, but it is aimed at a fundementally different audience and I don't want to dilute that community.
I just want to inform you that PvE in EvE is not the shallows. PvE, is an integral part of the economy and the community. Without the miners, haulers and mission runners the gaem would be very tame. PvE players build the PvPer's ships and fuel thier space stations, moon installations and various other infrastructures needed to run a player run empire.
The problem with the majority of people that play get stuck on is accepting that you will not get to enjoy the game without immersing yourself into the community. Getting into a Corp you can trust and flying all over the galaxy filling the niche you choose. Its a tough game when your actions have consquences and who you join up with may build or destroy your reputation.
You've nailed the inflow of cash....but how about the outflow? With your software in a constant development cycle, how much are you spending on developers, Project Managers, Business Analysts, Data Analysts, Database Admins, Assistants, Hardware costs, licenses, overhead costs, marketing..etc, etc, etc. MOST of which you incur BEFORE your project earns one single red cent.
There are lots of places for the Electronic Arts, BioWares, NCSofts of the world to spend their money. Why should they invest that kind of capital into an unproven game that has to deal with the likes of World of Warcraft in an industry that is VERY competitive (take a look at how many MMOs are on this sites list....expecially considering most of them are F2P) and has turned out rotten egg after rotten egg?
Blizzard has opened the doors of MMO gameing to a market of people that consume their entertainment from everything from Farmville to EVE Online. When one of the Activision / Blizzard bosses came out and said that WOW is competing against Farmville for peoples time, he wasn't joking. Its sad that MMO gaming now has to lower the bar and get down on the level of social media games to hold those folks attention.....less they loose subscribers.
Intial outflow exists in any game developement. But no non-MMO game has the potential profit value a MMO has. MMO's only real added costs are servers and a Dev/support team beyond what a normal studio's game developement costs have. So yea there are additional expenses to keep in mind, the risk is not far from what a non-MMO game par takes in.
Like my numbers stated above, aside from competition, MMO's are profitable, way more so than non MMO's, which is why all these developers are making them now. Blizzard did set the intial bar, the fact they are trying to compete with games like farmville is pretty sad, but I think they don't understand most who play farmville have either not heard of WoW or are not interested in spending money on a game. MMO developers need to stick with trying to recruit from these pools rather than lower themselves to thier levels.
The Sandbox is idea is ever growing thanks to games like Eve Online. The problem right now is genre identification as you have heard in this thread "no one can define a sandbox". A true sand box in not fun, period. A true sandbox will never be a AAA MMO. This is fact. Why you ask? A true Sandbox would be too empty and unwelcoming to a large portion of gamers.
So you say now why support a sandbox game? Best example, Eve Online. Center core of the world is Theme park PvE, the outer reaches, free open sandbox. The center core of the eve universe is where you build the basis for life in the sandbox, and the sandbox inturns rewards the themepark with added content. CCP designed a very strong example for the future of sanbox games. They even took it a step further by raising the bar, One Server. So now you have a persistant universe that houses 300k+ players, you have empires and wars for resources or reputation. You have an industry and a living economy. Its not perfect, nothing ever will be buts it is a great example of what any game could do to be a successful sandbox.
Why is WoW bigger than Eve Online you say? Because Sci-Fi is a niche genre, not cause its a sandbox. Most ppl want to play people not spaceships. WoW also had the most rewarding game system as it was designed to have all the things players hated about current MMO's of the time EQ/FF11/AO removed. WoW was more accessible and had great intial intro area's vs the current games out at the time. Over time WoW then won over players due to it having the larger population/community, like today alot of ppl play WoW because a friend does. I know I have gone back and played WoW due to friends wanting me to play.
Sanbox hybrids are the wave of the future, no doubt. But the market is still just getting into MMO's being mainstream. The guys who started WoW, used to play EQ. WoW exists because a EQ player said I can make a better game. Just find a game that is fun for you, and wait for the horizin, a new WoW is overdue and everyone knows it. They just need to put a game on the market that delivers a diffrence like WoW did to EQ/AO/FF11.
I think sandbox games are inherently flawed simply because they are inaccessible to the majority of gamers. By their very design, sandbox games tend to be far too complex and require far too much time and patience for most gamers to enjoy. People generally play games to have fun and relax. They play them as an escape from the troubles and tedium of real life. Sandbox games end up bringing a lot of that tedium and frustration over into the gaming world. Most people quite simply don't want to deal with more complexity and frustration in their gaming and so they stay away. They prefer it when games are full of action and exitement and do not require the equivelent of a full-time job to find any success.
While I can certainly understand why the complexity and freedom of choice offered in these games is appealing to many people, I think it ends up turning the majority of gamers away... and that is the ultimate reason why we have seen the decline of sandbox games over the years. Developers know now that their games must be accessible and fun first and foremost. Gameplay and fun can never take a backseat to complexity and scope of features. No matter how cool and interesting a game is, if it isn't thoroughly enjoyable from day 1, most people won't play. And lets face it, most sandbox games are incredibly daunting and difficult to break into. If you aren't naturally a very patient person who is interested in really digging in and grinding, these games won't appeal to you... and ultimately there are FAR fewer gamers who enjoy that kind of experience today.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
You've nailed the inflow of cash....but how about the outflow? With your software in a constant development cycle, how much are you spending on developers, Project Managers, Business Analysts, Data Analysts, Database Admins, Assistants, Hardware costs, licenses, overhead costs, marketing..etc, etc, etc. MOST of which you incur BEFORE your project earns one single red cent.
There are lots of places for the Electronic Arts, BioWares, NCSofts of the world to spend their money. Why should they invest that kind of capital into an unproven game that has to deal with the likes of World of Warcraft in an industry that is VERY competitive (take a look at how many MMOs are on this sites list....expecially considering most of them are F2P) and has turned out rotten egg after rotten egg?
Blizzard has opened the doors of MMO gameing to a market of people that consume their entertainment from everything from Farmville to EVE Online. When one of the Activision / Blizzard bosses came out and said that WOW is competing against Farmville for peoples time, he wasn't joking. Its sad that MMO gaming now has to lower the bar and get down on the level of social media games to hold those folks attention.....less they loose subscribers.
Intial outflow exists in any game developement. But no non-MMO game has the potential profit value a MMO has. MMO's only real added costs are servers and a Dev/support team beyond what a normal studio's game developement costs have. So yea there are additional expenses to keep in mind, the risk is not far from what a non-MMO game par takes in.
Like my numbers stated above, aside from competition, MMO's are profitable, way more so than non MMO's, which is why all these developers are making them now. Blizzard did set the intial bar, the fact they are trying to compete with games like farmville is pretty sad, but I think they don't understand most who play farmville have either not heard of WoW or are not interested in spending money on a game. MMO developers need to stick with trying to recruit from these pools rather than lower themselves to thier levels.
I have to disagree. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I read somewhere that Bioware's new Starwars game is running in the six figures for cost. Thats equivalent to a major full length feature block buster film! Game dev companies or publishers don't have to pay to keep a full development team, marketing team, and all the other personnel & hardware required to keep a perpetual world up and running 24/7....and through to the next expansion.
Single player games get to drop their development & support staff down to a fraction of their original size after the game releases....not so for MMOs.
I agree that while most people who play farmville (by the way Farmville has more players than registered Twitter Accounts) don't know what WOW is.....it does make up a considerable market share of casual gamers that do not rely on long term MMO games for their gaming fix. Even if that sub market is only 2-3 million subs of the WOW playerbase....it has enough financial impact to catch the eye of the big wigs at Blizzard / Activision.
The problem with trying to make these HUGE expensive and risky projects appeal to these casual gamers is that they are by nature fickle to how they consume entertainment. They play these cheap disposable games (farmville, and "insert iPhone game here") till they burn out and move on to the next hot thing. Trying to keep these folks on the subscriber roll means constantly making consessions by offering more rewards for less effort + easier to get. Where are the folks looking for a deep and challenging game experience left to go?
The Sandbox is idea is ever growing thanks to games like Eve Online. The problem right now is genre identification as you have heard in this thread "no one can define a sandbox". A true sand box in not fun, period. A true sandbox will never be a AAA MMO. This is fact. Why you ask? A true Sandbox would be too empty and unwelcoming to a large portion of gamers.
So you say now why support a sandbox game? Best example, Eve Online. Center core of the world is Theme park PvE, the outer reaches, free open sandbox. The center core of the eve universe is where you build the basis for life in the sandbox, and the sandbox inturns rewards the themepark with added content. CCP designed a very strong example for the future of sanbox games. They even took it a step further by raising the bar, One Server. So now you have a persistant universe that houses 300k+ players, you have empires and wars for resources or reputation. You have an industry and a living economy. Its not perfect, nothing ever will be buts it is a great example of what any game could do to be a successful sandbox.
Why is WoW bigger than Eve Online you say? Because Sci-Fi is a niche genre, not cause its a sandbox. Most ppl want to play people not spaceships. WoW also had the most rewarding game system as it was designed to have all the things players hated about current MMO's of the time EQ/FF11/AO removed. WoW was more accessible and had great intial intro area's vs the current games out at the time. Over time WoW then won over players due to it having the larger population/community, like today alot of ppl play WoW because a friend does. I know I have gone back and played WoW due to friends wanting me to play.
Sanbox hybrids are the wave of the future, no doubt. But the market is still just getting into MMO's being mainstream. The guys who started WoW, used to play EQ. WoW exists because a EQ player said I can make a better game. Just find a game that is fun for you, and wait for the horizin, a new WoW is overdue and everyone knows it. They just need to put a game on the market that delivers a diffrence like WoW did to EQ/AO/FF11.
I think there's a lot of truth in this. Many of the more sandboxy games have been PvP centric and they simply implemented it very badly by making them 100% gank-fests. Eve has shown how to do it with some central safe-ish PvE places surrounded by the clanbox terriotory and connected together through the economy. That way some people go direct to the PvE and stay there, some direct to the clanbox and stay there and some can either ease their way into the clanbox or go to and fro depending on their mood.
I'm not sure they could ever be as a big as WoW though as almost by definition the default difficulty level will be higher.
This thread is like a pile of nail clippings the bigger it gets the more pride i feel in it for some reason.
"Don't mistake a fun game for a good game... Checkers is fun to play but its not exactly the highest point of gaming design... and definatly not worth $60 plus $15 a month"
I think there's a lot of truth in this. Many of the more sandboxy games have been PvP centric and they simply implemented it very badly by making them 100% gank-fests. Eve has shown how to do it with some central safe-ish PvE places surrounded by the clanbox terriotory and connected together through the economy. That way some people go direct to the PvE and stay there, some direct to the clanbox and stay there and some can either ease their way into the clanbox or go to and fro depending on their mood.
I'm not sure they could ever be as a big as WoW though as almost by definition the default difficulty level will be higher.
I tend to think of sandbox fans as two groups: those who like to 'do anything' and those who like to 'build anything'. I consider myself a 'builder' and for me PvP in a sandbox game is nothing more than an irritant since it interferes in my building and I do not find it very inellectually stimulating. For me EVE would be a great sandbox game if they just got rid of that pesky non-consensual PvP.
I think there's a lot of truth in this. Many of the more sandboxy games have been PvP centric and they simply implemented it very badly by making them 100% gank-fests. Eve has shown how to do it with some central safe-ish PvE places surrounded by the clanbox terriotory and connected together through the economy. That way some people go direct to the PvE and stay there, some direct to the clanbox and stay there and some can either ease their way into the clanbox or go to and fro depending on their mood.
I'm not sure they could ever be as a big as WoW though as almost by definition the default difficulty level will be higher.
I tend to think of sandbox fans as two groups: those who like to 'do anything' and those who like to 'build anything'. I consider myself a 'builder' and for me PvP in a sandbox game is nothing more than an irritant since it interferes in my building and I do not find it very inellectually stimulating. For me EVE would be a great sandbox game if they just got rid of that pesky non-consensual PvP.
Torik you just do not get it, EVE is a great game (despite lots of things CCP has changed over the years, the non-consensual pvp makes the sandbox even better)
It makes you feel like there really is lot's of danger in the virtual universe you are in. If you don't want pvp stay in empire space and don't do faction warfare. Mine you're whole lifespan or run agent missions, NOBODY is forcing you.
I think there's a lot of truth in this. Many of the more sandboxy games have been PvP centric and they simply implemented it very badly by making them 100% gank-fests. Eve has shown how to do it with some central safe-ish PvE places surrounded by the clanbox terriotory and connected together through the economy. That way some people go direct to the PvE and stay there, some direct to the clanbox and stay there and some can either ease their way into the clanbox or go to and fro depending on their mood.
I'm not sure they could ever be as a big as WoW though as almost by definition the default difficulty level will be higher.
I tend to think of sandbox fans as two groups: those who like to 'do anything' and those who like to 'build anything'. I consider myself a 'builder' and for me PvP in a sandbox game is nothing more than an irritant since it interferes in my building and I do not find it very inellectually stimulating. For me EVE would be a great sandbox game if they just got rid of that pesky non-consensual PvP.
Yeah. That's why i draw a distinction between sandbox and clanbox. I think the prime directive of each is completely different even though they share a lot of common features.
I think there's a lot of truth in this. Many of the more sandboxy games have been PvP centric and they simply implemented it very badly by making them 100% gank-fests. Eve has shown how to do it with some central safe-ish PvE places surrounded by the clanbox terriotory and connected together through the economy. That way some people go direct to the PvE and stay there, some direct to the clanbox and stay there and some can either ease their way into the clanbox or go to and fro depending on their mood.
I'm not sure they could ever be as a big as WoW though as almost by definition the default difficulty level will be higher.
I tend to think of sandbox fans as two groups: those who like to 'do anything' and those who like to 'build anything'. I consider myself a 'builder' and for me PvP in a sandbox game is nothing more than an irritant since it interferes in my building and I do not find it very inellectually stimulating. For me EVE would be a great sandbox game if they just got rid of that pesky non-consensual PvP.
I tend to think of sandbox games as both....a place where you can "do anything" and "build anything". There is a place for both.
PvP might not be your bag, but if implemented correctly....it is the ultimate form of intellectual stimulation. Unless the PvP system and mechanics are out of balance, you can't predict what another player will do....MUCH different than some scripted monster Artificial Intelligence. PvE difficulty is often measured in how hard it is to overcome a Bosses inflated Hit Points or rediculous Stat Ratings. PvP difficulty is being able to apply strategy based on what your opponet's doing. Since its harder to predict what your opponet is doing, you need to have as much knowledge around your capabilities and what the best counters are. PvP (for me) was the next level of game play after I got tired of shooting boars in a barrel.
With that said, there has to be mechanics in the game that prevent random PKing or ganking without consequense.....all while allowing for a Murderer / Hero system. If your path is to be a pirate, then be a pirate. Players and clans of "good guys" emerge to hunt down said pirates.
This non-consentual PvP also feeds a player economy. People loose crap in battle....they need to replenish their stock. Guess who replenishes their stock......crafters. BAM, you now have a viable play style in crafting that doesn't feel like a side show.
The Sandbox is idea is ever growing thanks to games like Eve Online. The problem right now is genre identification as you have heard in this thread "no one can define a sandbox". A true sand box in not fun, period. A true sandbox will never be a AAA MMO. This is fact. Why you ask? A true Sandbox would be too empty and unwelcoming to a large portion of gamers.
So you say now why support a sandbox game? Best example, Eve Online. Center core of the world is Theme park PvE, the outer reaches, free open sandbox. The center core of the eve universe is where you build the basis for life in the sandbox, and the sandbox inturns rewards the themepark with added content. CCP designed a very strong example for the future of sanbox games. They even took it a step further by raising the bar, One Server. So now you have a persistant universe that houses 300k+ players, you have empires and wars for resources or reputation. You have an industry and a living economy. Its not perfect, nothing ever will be buts it is a great example of what any game could do to be a successful sandbox.
Why is WoW bigger than Eve Online you say? Because Sci-Fi is a niche genre, not cause its a sandbox. Most ppl want to play people not spaceships. WoW also had the most rewarding game system as it was designed to have all the things players hated about current MMO's of the time EQ/FF11/AO removed. WoW was more accessible and had great intial intro area's vs the current games out at the time. Over time WoW then won over players due to it having the larger population/community, like today alot of ppl play WoW because a friend does. I know I have gone back and played WoW due to friends wanting me to play.
Sanbox hybrids are the wave of the future, no doubt. But the market is still just getting into MMO's being mainstream. The guys who started WoW, used to play EQ. WoW exists because a EQ player said I can make a better game. Just find a game that is fun for you, and wait for the horizin, a new WoW is overdue and everyone knows it. They just need to put a game on the market that delivers a diffrence like WoW did to EQ/AO/FF11.
I think there's a lot of truth in this. Many of the more sandboxy games have been PvP centric and they simply implemented it very badly by making them 100% gank-fests. Eve has shown how to do it with some central safe-ish PvE places surrounded by the clanbox terriotory and connected together through the economy. That way some people go direct to the PvE and stay there, some direct to the clanbox and stay there and some can either ease their way into the clanbox or go to and fro depending on their mood.
I'm not sure they could ever be as a big as WoW though as almost by definition the default difficulty level will be higher.
Ultima Online did this in a fantasy setting for their Rennisance expansion. They basicly made a mirror image of the existing world and put a consentual PvP rule set in it. The lawless side had more rewards to offer adventurers and PvPers....but you could stay within the concentual PvP area and have your entire experience within that environment without really sacraficing much opprotunity that the game offered. Another good example of a sandbox implementation that doesn't club the newb player over the head as soon as they step foot out of town.
I think there's a lot of truth in this. Many of the more sandboxy games have been PvP centric and they simply implemented it very badly by making them 100% gank-fests. Eve has shown how to do it with some central safe-ish PvE places surrounded by the clanbox terriotory and connected together through the economy. That way some people go direct to the PvE and stay there, some direct to the clanbox and stay there and some can either ease their way into the clanbox or go to and fro depending on their mood.
I'm not sure they could ever be as a big as WoW though as almost by definition the default difficulty level will be higher.
I tend to think of sandbox fans as two groups: those who like to 'do anything' and those who like to 'build anything'. I consider myself a 'builder' and for me PvP in a sandbox game is nothing more than an irritant since it interferes in my building and I do not find it very inellectually stimulating. For me EVE would be a great sandbox game if they just got rid of that pesky non-consensual PvP.
I tend to think of sandbox games as both....a place where you can "do anything" and "build anything". There is a place for both.
PvP might not be your bag, but if implemented correctly....it is the ultimate form of intellectual stimulation. Unless the PvP system and mechanics are out of balance, you can't predict what another player will do....MUCH different than some scripted monster Artificial Intelligence. PvE difficulty is often measured in how hard it is to overcome a Bosses inflated Hit Points or rediculous Stat Ratings. PvP difficulty is being able to apply strategy based on what your opponet's doing. Since its harder to predict what your opponet is doing, you need to have as much knowledge around your capabilities and what the best counters are. PvP (for me) was the next level of game play after I got tired of shooting boars in a barrel.
With that said, there has to be mechanics in the game that prevent random PKing or ganking without consequense.....all while allowing for a Murderer / Hero system. If your path is to be a pirate, then be a pirate. Players and clans of "good guys" emerge to hunt down said pirates.
This non-consentual PvP also feeds a player economy. People loose crap in battle....they need to replenish their stock. Guess who replenishes their stock......crafters. BAM, you now have a viable play style in crafting that doesn't feel like a side show.
I tend to think of sandbox games as both....a place where you can "do anything" and "build anything". There is a place for both.
I'd guess the builder's problem with combining "do anything" with "build anything" is that they build something and then the PvPers come and burn it down.
you can't predict what another player will do
I can predict they'll delevel, twink, hack, bunnyhop, manaburn or whatever else it takes to gank your face off. If a game makes it so there's no easy way to solo gank people's faces off then they'll form into big packs so they outnumber a victim and gank their face off. I don't mind that when i'm in the mood for it but when i'm not in the mood for it i'm *really* not.
If your path is to be a pirate, then be a pirate. Players and clans of "good guys" emerge to hunt down said pirates.
People say this but it's not true because most PvPers want to be pirates. If there's a safe zone it has to be enforced by the game somehow (although that somehow might possibly include the game putting bounties on player pirates which other players could then chase).
In the end if you want a big PvP game that lasts a long time then people need some game-enforced safe terriotory when they're not in the mood to be ganked in the face.
Comments
ufortunately those that truly love sanbox games are very few. most mmo players these days need constant change and excitment (theme park). 10/15 years ago when mmos were just starting most games were sandbox by default mostly because that's all they could offer. basic features, basic mechanics, basic enviroments. then more and more features were invented/added and the newer games evolved into stream line, much more popular, spoon fed roller coaster ride games we now call "them park".
most of those asking "what happened to sandbox games?" are only nostalgic, but the truth is that very few of us would be completely suddisfied in a real plain old sanbox.
it takes very simple expectations and high immagination to truly enjoy a sandbox and most of us have long lost either. the problem with sophistication is that it becomes extremely hard to enjoy the simple things again.
If I wanted to be the one and only hero, I'd play a single player RPG where the game is designed to revolve around me, start at me, and stop at me.
And sandbox doesn't mean as close to real life as possible. It means that players are given the liberty to create their own experience. I want to be "insert proffesion here" and you can make a satisfying game experience doing that. Crafting, fishing, gathering, politicing, and other non combat related trades aren't just a side show to the hack n' slash game experience.
Also, sandboxes don't have to be all about PvP or even have full loot. Players in EVE, Ultima Online, and to a certian extent....Lineage 2, offered things for you to do without ever having to set foot in PvP. You could never attack a single person and still have access to endgame content and riches. Lineage 2 is a good example of a PvP focused "sandbox'ish" game that didn't involve full loot.
One of the other reasons you probably don't see many more Sandbox games is because it gives the developers FULL control of your game experience. They release the content when they see fit, and are able to proactively plan and control how its consumed by the public. Since sandbox games give much of that control to the players....its harder for the developers to plan and deploy. Better for the game dev companies......not neccessarily for the players.
I disagree. Sandbox games are as far from real life as it gets. Most of the world's population spend their lives being told what to do. First their parents, then their teachers, then their bosses order them about and assign them tasks to complete. People chase the weekly allowance, the good grades, and the almighty paycheck, progressing in an automated trudge from cradle to grave with little in the way of autonomy.
Themepark MMOs just offer the real life format in a speeded up pretend world. I can't comprehend why anyone likes it, except maybe those lucky few professionals who manage to earn a living without being subject to either their bosses or their customers. Must be some sort of slave mentality.
To me a sandbox offers freedom of class, appearance, and, more than anything else, progression. Quests in a game are fine by me, for those who want to do them. And sometimes I will do quests. But not if I have to. Not for long. I always end up quitting, no matter how much I like the rest of the game. Because to me, a questlog is just a big chore list, and I'm not even getting paid to do it.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
In brief, you, "gamers", happened!
You can't stand one single detail amiss in a world of perfection and you thrash the game on all the forums you happen to have an account on because your sword is not flashy .
You have absolutely no hint what a Beta is - yet rush to get into them only to spew hatred on the above-mentioned forums about how bad the game is.
You have long lost the concept of good clean fun and turned PVP into PK. Oh how I loathe you for this. Go back to play fucking Counterstrike if your manhood needs a boost.
You have no idea of the costs involved in building up a game and turned so cheap you will not under any circumstance fork out 12E for a game that you know you like, waiting instead for it to crumble to a pathetic F2P Item Mall Online Multiplayer Game.
You specially have not even the slightest clue about what the technical background is during the development of a game yet rush to criticize the developers for their incompetence. Let me see YOU code a fucking Mine Sweeper and THEN talk shit about game development.
Not to mention the 'geniuses' who write entire articles and blogs based only on hear-say information and predict the game's "crap" without as much of a screenshot attached to prove their conclusions.
You all helped carve out the MMO landscape as it is today. And you DARE hate it? It’s YOUR mess.
Enough ranting. I`m going back to single-player sandboxes.
P.S.
Free To Play Gamers Movement?! Are you shitting me? What a fucking disgrace to the gamers community. Cheap-ass beggars, get a fucking job and support gaming!
Better to be crazy, provided you know what sane is...
I think there are more people looking for a deeper play experience than you think. A lot of people "put up" with the mediocre games on the market because there aren't any good options and games like WOW are extremely polished and popular.
However, I agree with much of what you said. Even still.....I think there is a market out there for people looking for a deeper and more rewarding MMO experience. It won't pull the attention of any of the AAA game dev companies.....but some smart indie company will hopefully find the right formula. All the ground work is laid out for a good sandbox.....just stop screwing with the formula by making it space ship only, first person view only, etc.
Slap the old UO ruleset and mechanics (Ultima Online: Rennesance) ontop of a Battle of Immortals / Diablo style environment with some nice textures and your golden. The people looking for this kind of experience aren't looking for Age of Conan graphics.
I think there are at least three standard definitions of "sandbox" that people use.
1. Builder sandboxs like Second Life shading into games like WurmOnline and Tale in the Desert.
2. PvP sandboxs.
3. "More non-linear than WoW" sandboxs which aren't really sandboxs but people call them that because no-one has come up with a better word. The Elder Scrolls games, if you take away the main quest, are a very good single player example of what i think this set of people (including me) mean when they use the word "sandboxy." Fallout is another good single player example. If you kept the main quest but made it the equivalent of the "endgame" then the fit would be even closer. (I modded Morrowind that way so the main quest didn't start until i was a guild or house leader). So basically you make a name for yourself in any of a dozen or so ways first and then you get called to be the big hero.
In fact i think i'm going to call them sandbox, clanbox and morrowindbox games from now on.
Last I checked, any triple A MMO that charges a subscription can make a very decent bank as long as they scale thier buisness and content with thier growth and don't slack off.
$15 dollars a month x a 500k subs is 7 million a month, thats alot of funding there.
WoW has like 10 million subs, thats 150 million a month.
Even the lowend 300k sub MMO's make 4.5 million a month, thats over 50 million a year. Thats pretty enormous budget for any market.
Every company wants to get into MMO's, they are just trying to find the laziest and most profitable way to do it. Developers don't care about you. Thats the main issue now a days.
Fatetaker Voidwalker
Linkshell founder of Shi Ryu of Aegis & Figaro
Leader of the Bad Wolves Multi Game Community
You make a lot of assumptions with absolutes....but I get where your coming from. This is the problem you get into when you start bringing in players from other generes that have different game mechanics than what tradditional MMOs have.
Of course a traditional FPS gamer thats dipped their toe into the MMO market with WOW will female dog and complain if your not able to make a considerable amount of progress in a 1/2 hr - 1 hr gaming session. Of course a single player RPGer will stomp their feet if they aren't able to keep up with the Jones' in a perpetual world. These gamers obviously liked the game genere they were used to playing for a reason. Now that WOW has taken on this BIG TENT approach to MMO Gaming, you have all these gamers advocating for new MMO games to be more like their previous gameing experience (FPS, Console, Casual, etc.)
By the very nature of including all these different type of gamers under one tent, it is impossible to please them all. Things were more clearly defined when MMO gaming was a niche based genere, instead of this main stream profit center.
Sadly I think there are less people then you think.
For example right now on Asheron's Call official forums is a thread of people asking for AC to basically setup the whole game with mini quest hubs so that people don't have to actually explore the world and find quests.
People are lazy and a lot of them just want to log in and have their hand held through the leveling process and told where/what/when to do things. They don't want to explore and find their own fun.
You've nailed the inflow of cash....but how about the outflow? With your software in a constant development cycle, how much are you spending on developers, Project Managers, Business Analysts, Data Analysts, Database Admins, Assistants, Hardware costs, licenses, overhead costs, marketing..etc, etc, etc. MOST of which you incur BEFORE your project earns one single red cent.
There are lots of places for the Electronic Arts, BioWares, NCSofts of the world to spend their money. Why should they invest that kind of capital into an unproven game that has to deal with the likes of World of Warcraft in an industry that is VERY competitive (take a look at how many MMOs are on this sites list....expecially considering most of them are F2P) and has turned out rotten egg after rotten egg?
Blizzard has opened the doors of MMO gameing to a market of people that consume their entertainment from everything from Farmville to EVE Online. When one of the Activision / Blizzard bosses came out and said that WOW is competing against Farmville for peoples time, he wasn't joking. Its sad that MMO gaming now has to lower the bar and get down on the level of social media games to hold those folks attention.....less they loose subscribers.
I just want to inform you that PvE in EvE is not the shallows. PvE, is an integral part of the economy and the community. Without the miners, haulers and mission runners the gaem would be very tame. PvE players build the PvPer's ships and fuel thier space stations, moon installations and various other infrastructures needed to run a player run empire.
The problem with the majority of people that play get stuck on is accepting that you will not get to enjoy the game without immersing yourself into the community. Getting into a Corp you can trust and flying all over the galaxy filling the niche you choose. Its a tough game when your actions have consquences and who you join up with may build or destroy your reputation.
Fatetaker Voidwalker
Linkshell founder of Shi Ryu of Aegis & Figaro
Leader of the Bad Wolves Multi Game Community
Intial outflow exists in any game developement. But no non-MMO game has the potential profit value a MMO has. MMO's only real added costs are servers and a Dev/support team beyond what a normal studio's game developement costs have. So yea there are additional expenses to keep in mind, the risk is not far from what a non-MMO game par takes in.
Like my numbers stated above, aside from competition, MMO's are profitable, way more so than non MMO's, which is why all these developers are making them now. Blizzard did set the intial bar, the fact they are trying to compete with games like farmville is pretty sad, but I think they don't understand most who play farmville have either not heard of WoW or are not interested in spending money on a game. MMO developers need to stick with trying to recruit from these pools rather than lower themselves to thier levels.
Fatetaker Voidwalker
Linkshell founder of Shi Ryu of Aegis & Figaro
Leader of the Bad Wolves Multi Game Community
Now for my OC take on this.
The Sandbox is idea is ever growing thanks to games like Eve Online. The problem right now is genre identification as you have heard in this thread "no one can define a sandbox". A true sand box in not fun, period. A true sandbox will never be a AAA MMO. This is fact. Why you ask? A true Sandbox would be too empty and unwelcoming to a large portion of gamers.
So you say now why support a sandbox game? Best example, Eve Online. Center core of the world is Theme park PvE, the outer reaches, free open sandbox. The center core of the eve universe is where you build the basis for life in the sandbox, and the sandbox inturns rewards the themepark with added content. CCP designed a very strong example for the future of sanbox games. They even took it a step further by raising the bar, One Server. So now you have a persistant universe that houses 300k+ players, you have empires and wars for resources or reputation. You have an industry and a living economy. Its not perfect, nothing ever will be buts it is a great example of what any game could do to be a successful sandbox.
Why is WoW bigger than Eve Online you say? Because Sci-Fi is a niche genre, not cause its a sandbox. Most ppl want to play people not spaceships. WoW also had the most rewarding game system as it was designed to have all the things players hated about current MMO's of the time EQ/FF11/AO removed. WoW was more accessible and had great intial intro area's vs the current games out at the time. Over time WoW then won over players due to it having the larger population/community, like today alot of ppl play WoW because a friend does. I know I have gone back and played WoW due to friends wanting me to play.
Sanbox hybrids are the wave of the future, no doubt. But the market is still just getting into MMO's being mainstream. The guys who started WoW, used to play EQ. WoW exists because a EQ player said I can make a better game. Just find a game that is fun for you, and wait for the horizin, a new WoW is overdue and everyone knows it. They just need to put a game on the market that delivers a diffrence like WoW did to EQ/AO/FF11.
Fatetaker Voidwalker
Linkshell founder of Shi Ryu of Aegis & Figaro
Leader of the Bad Wolves Multi Game Community
I think sandbox games are inherently flawed simply because they are inaccessible to the majority of gamers. By their very design, sandbox games tend to be far too complex and require far too much time and patience for most gamers to enjoy. People generally play games to have fun and relax. They play them as an escape from the troubles and tedium of real life. Sandbox games end up bringing a lot of that tedium and frustration over into the gaming world. Most people quite simply don't want to deal with more complexity and frustration in their gaming and so they stay away. They prefer it when games are full of action and exitement and do not require the equivelent of a full-time job to find any success.
While I can certainly understand why the complexity and freedom of choice offered in these games is appealing to many people, I think it ends up turning the majority of gamers away... and that is the ultimate reason why we have seen the decline of sandbox games over the years. Developers know now that their games must be accessible and fun first and foremost. Gameplay and fun can never take a backseat to complexity and scope of features. No matter how cool and interesting a game is, if it isn't thoroughly enjoyable from day 1, most people won't play. And lets face it, most sandbox games are incredibly daunting and difficult to break into. If you aren't naturally a very patient person who is interested in really digging in and grinding, these games won't appeal to you... and ultimately there are FAR fewer gamers who enjoy that kind of experience today.
http://www.wurmonline.com/
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I have to disagree. I don't have the numbers in front of me but I read somewhere that Bioware's new Starwars game is running in the six figures for cost. Thats equivalent to a major full length feature block buster film! Game dev companies or publishers don't have to pay to keep a full development team, marketing team, and all the other personnel & hardware required to keep a perpetual world up and running 24/7....and through to the next expansion.
Single player games get to drop their development & support staff down to a fraction of their original size after the game releases....not so for MMOs.
I agree that while most people who play farmville (by the way Farmville has more players than registered Twitter Accounts) don't know what WOW is.....it does make up a considerable market share of casual gamers that do not rely on long term MMO games for their gaming fix. Even if that sub market is only 2-3 million subs of the WOW playerbase....it has enough financial impact to catch the eye of the big wigs at Blizzard / Activision.
The problem with trying to make these HUGE expensive and risky projects appeal to these casual gamers is that they are by nature fickle to how they consume entertainment. They play these cheap disposable games (farmville, and "insert iPhone game here") till they burn out and move on to the next hot thing. Trying to keep these folks on the subscriber roll means constantly making consessions by offering more rewards for less effort + easier to get. Where are the folks looking for a deep and challenging game experience left to go?
I think there's a lot of truth in this. Many of the more sandboxy games have been PvP centric and they simply implemented it very badly by making them 100% gank-fests. Eve has shown how to do it with some central safe-ish PvE places surrounded by the clanbox terriotory and connected together through the economy. That way some people go direct to the PvE and stay there, some direct to the clanbox and stay there and some can either ease their way into the clanbox or go to and fro depending on their mood.
I'm not sure they could ever be as a big as WoW though as almost by definition the default difficulty level will be higher.
This thread is like a pile of nail clippings the bigger it gets the more pride i feel in it for some reason.
"Don't mistake a fun game for a good game... Checkers is fun to play but its not exactly the highest point of gaming design... and definatly not worth $60 plus $15 a month"
I tend to think of sandbox fans as two groups: those who like to 'do anything' and those who like to 'build anything'. I consider myself a 'builder' and for me PvP in a sandbox game is nothing more than an irritant since it interferes in my building and I do not find it very inellectually stimulating. For me EVE would be a great sandbox game if they just got rid of that pesky non-consensual PvP.
Torik you just do not get it, EVE is a great game (despite lots of things CCP has changed over the years, the non-consensual pvp makes the sandbox even better)
It makes you feel like there really is lot's of danger in the virtual universe you are in. If you don't want pvp stay in empire space and don't do faction warfare. Mine you're whole lifespan or run agent missions, NOBODY is forcing you.
Yeah. That's why i draw a distinction between sandbox and clanbox. I think the prime directive of each is completely different even though they share a lot of common features.
I tend to think of sandbox games as both....a place where you can "do anything" and "build anything". There is a place for both.
PvP might not be your bag, but if implemented correctly....it is the ultimate form of intellectual stimulation. Unless the PvP system and mechanics are out of balance, you can't predict what another player will do....MUCH different than some scripted monster Artificial Intelligence. PvE difficulty is often measured in how hard it is to overcome a Bosses inflated Hit Points or rediculous Stat Ratings. PvP difficulty is being able to apply strategy based on what your opponet's doing. Since its harder to predict what your opponet is doing, you need to have as much knowledge around your capabilities and what the best counters are. PvP (for me) was the next level of game play after I got tired of shooting boars in a barrel.
With that said, there has to be mechanics in the game that prevent random PKing or ganking without consequense.....all while allowing for a Murderer / Hero system. If your path is to be a pirate, then be a pirate. Players and clans of "good guys" emerge to hunt down said pirates.
This non-consentual PvP also feeds a player economy. People loose crap in battle....they need to replenish their stock. Guess who replenishes their stock......crafters. BAM, you now have a viable play style in crafting that doesn't feel like a side show.
Ultima Online did this in a fantasy setting for their Rennisance expansion. They basicly made a mirror image of the existing world and put a consentual PvP rule set in it. The lawless side had more rewards to offer adventurers and PvPers....but you could stay within the concentual PvP area and have your entire experience within that environment without really sacraficing much opprotunity that the game offered. Another good example of a sandbox implementation that doesn't club the newb player over the head as soon as they step foot out of town.
I tend to think of sandbox games as both....a place where you can "do anything" and "build anything". There is a place for both.
I'd guess the builder's problem with combining "do anything" with "build anything" is that they build something and then the PvPers come and burn it down.
you can't predict what another player will do
I can predict they'll delevel, twink, hack, bunnyhop, manaburn or whatever else it takes to gank your face off. If a game makes it so there's no easy way to solo gank people's faces off then they'll form into big packs so they outnumber a victim and gank their face off. I don't mind that when i'm in the mood for it but when i'm not in the mood for it i'm *really* not.
If your path is to be a pirate, then be a pirate. Players and clans of "good guys" emerge to hunt down said pirates.
People say this but it's not true because most PvPers want to be pirates. If there's a safe zone it has to be enforced by the game somehow (although that somehow might possibly include the game putting bounties on player pirates which other players could then chase).
In the end if you want a big PvP game that lasts a long time then people need some game-enforced safe terriotory when they're not in the mood to be ganked in the face.