I think there's a lot of truth in this. Many of the more sandboxy games have been PvP centric and they simply implemented it very badly by making them 100% gank-fests. Eve has shown how to do it with some central safe-ish PvE places surrounded by the clanbox terriotory and connected together through the economy. That way some people go direct to the PvE and stay there, some direct to the clanbox and stay there and some can either ease their way into the clanbox or go to and fro depending on their mood.
I'm not sure they could ever be as a big as WoW though as almost by definition the default difficulty level will be higher.
I tend to think of sandbox fans as two groups: those who like to 'do anything' and those who like to 'build anything'. I consider myself a 'builder' and for me PvP in a sandbox game is nothing more than an irritant since it interferes in my building and I do not find it very inellectually stimulating. For me EVE would be a great sandbox game if they just got rid of that pesky non-consensual PvP.
I tend to think of sandbox games as both....a place where you can "do anything" and "build anything". There is a place for both.
PvP might not be your bag, but if implemented correctly....it is the ultimate form of intellectual stimulation. Unless the PvP system and mechanics are out of balance, you can't predict what another player will do....MUCH different than some scripted monster Artificial Intelligence. PvE difficulty is often measured in how hard it is to overcome a Bosses inflated Hit Points or rediculous Stat Ratings. PvP difficulty is being able to apply strategy based on what your opponet's doing. Since its harder to predict what your opponet is doing, you need to have as much knowledge around your capabilities and what the best counters are. PvP (for me) was the next level of game play after I got tired of shooting boars in a barrel.
With that said, there has to be mechanics in the game that prevent random PKing or ganking without consequense.....all while allowing for a Murderer / Hero system. If your path is to be a pirate, then be a pirate. Players and clans of "good guys" emerge to hunt down said pirates.
This non-consentual PvP also feeds a player economy. People loose crap in battle....they need to replenish their stock. Guess who replenishes their stock......crafters. BAM, you now have a viable play style in crafting that doesn't feel like a side show.
I tend to think of sandbox games as both....a place where you can "do anything" and "build anything". There is a place for both.
I'd guess the builder's problem with combining "do anything" with "build anything" is that they build something and then the PvPers come and burn it down.
you can't predict what another player will do
I can predict they'll delevel, twink, hack, bunnyhop, manaburn or whatever else it takes to gank your face off. If a game makes it so there's no easy way to solo gank people's faces off then they'll form into big packs so they outnumber a victim and gank their face off. I don't mind that when i'm in the mood for it but when i'm not in the mood for it i'm *really* not.
If your path is to be a pirate, then be a pirate. Players and clans of "good guys" emerge to hunt down said pirates.
People say this but it's not true because most PvPers want to be pirates. If there's a safe zone it has to be enforced by the game somehow (although that somehow might possibly include the game putting bounties on player pirates which other players could then chase).
In the end if you want a big PvP game that lasts a long time then people need some game-enforced safe terriotory when they're not in the mood to be ganked in the face.
I'd guess the builder's problem with combining "do anything" with "build anything" is that they build something and then the PvPers come and burn it down.
And then you build it back up again...bigger, better....and probably better protected. Maybe you enlist yourself into a clan that can help protect it, etc. I've seen this done in Shadowbane time and time again. Small guild builds a city and it gets wipped. Small guild affiliates itself with a larger alliance and builds it back up bigger, better, and protected.
I can predict they'll delevel, twink, hack, bunnyhop, manaburn or whatever else it takes to gank your face off. If a game makes it so there's no easy way to solo gank people's faces off then they'll form into big packs so they outnumber a victim and gank their face off. I don't mind that when i'm in the mood for it but when i'm not in the mood for it i'm *really* not.
Fair enough. There needs to be an area where you can escape the madness when your not in the mood for it. But from personal experience....being ganked in a few of the open PvP games I've played landed me in some pretty good guilds and have met some really cool people. I get ganked....I find another person thats hunting in the same area that happens to be in a guild. I team up with that guy...fast forward a few weeks and I'm guilded and protected from ganking. Thats how these things work. Some of the best rivalries I've had have come from territory battles.
People say this but it's not true because most PvPers want to be pirates. If there's a safe zone it has to be enforced by the game somehow (although that somehow might possibly include the game putting bounties on player pirates which other players could then chase).
There was a guild in Utlima Online called Knights of Glory and Beer (KGB), and they were an Anti-PK guild. They rolled around in packs looking for murderer toons to kill. One of the guilds I was in would go out looking for PKers all the time. The bounty system works too btw.
Comments
What happened to all the sandboxes
The "I Want It All and Want it Now Crowed" happened
HAHA best quote ever!
I'd guess the builder's problem with combining "do anything" with "build anything" is that they build something and then the PvPers come and burn it down.
And then you build it back up again...bigger, better....and probably better protected. Maybe you enlist yourself into a clan that can help protect it, etc. I've seen this done in Shadowbane time and time again. Small guild builds a city and it gets wipped. Small guild affiliates itself with a larger alliance and builds it back up bigger, better, and protected.
I can predict they'll delevel, twink, hack, bunnyhop, manaburn or whatever else it takes to gank your face off. If a game makes it so there's no easy way to solo gank people's faces off then they'll form into big packs so they outnumber a victim and gank their face off. I don't mind that when i'm in the mood for it but when i'm not in the mood for it i'm *really* not.
Fair enough. There needs to be an area where you can escape the madness when your not in the mood for it. But from personal experience....being ganked in a few of the open PvP games I've played landed me in some pretty good guilds and have met some really cool people. I get ganked....I find another person thats hunting in the same area that happens to be in a guild. I team up with that guy...fast forward a few weeks and I'm guilded and protected from ganking. Thats how these things work. Some of the best rivalries I've had have come from territory battles.
People say this but it's not true because most PvPers want to be pirates. If there's a safe zone it has to be enforced by the game somehow (although that somehow might possibly include the game putting bounties on player pirates which other players could then chase).
There was a guild in Utlima Online called Knights of Glory and Beer (KGB), and they were an Anti-PK guild. They rolled around in packs looking for murderer toons to kill. One of the guilds I was in would go out looking for PKers all the time. The bounty system works too btw.