What a troll post, assuming that just because you can't enjoy the game I must be fool because I can.
It's a bit like going down to the bowling alley and congratulating the owners on fooling so many people to playing because you find the use of bowling balls overly awkward to be enjoyable.
You do realize that you don't have to buy the game at release if it doesn't meet your standard. You can buy the game at any point you feel justifies your monthly subscription.
Shocking as it may seem, I happen to believe that the game, AS IS, justifies me paying 12.99 a month. IF after 5 months nothing has changed and I exhausted the content, I'll cancel my sub until more stuff is added or the game improves.
What's stopping people who don't like the current state of teh game from picking it up later....yuo're not obligated to play at release. Maybe SE thinks its better to fix as they go and that the game is 85%, 90%, 95% complete. I'd rather get a chance to play FFXIV at 85% now, rather than 100% 6 months later.
You know why? Because it's going to take me at least 6 months to experience a fraction of the 85% that is completed. As for UI issues, they're only issues if they bother you sooooo much that it makes playing unbearable. As for me, it is a minor annoyance. The only time it matters is when it takes me 10 minutes to sell the stuff in my inventory, where as 90% of my time is spend crafting or in combat.
When will you guys learn not to have high hopes from MMOS these days? never every pre order a MMORPG and always wait for good 6 months to 1 year. I cancelled my pre order after playing OB. I have learned my lesson. I will check back in a year or so. 50 bucks is a lot for me these days in such harsh economic times.
the average drug addict blows thru 50 bucks for an hour long high, lol
Considering the PS3 version is not out until next year, I think they are just using the PC market to get a better sense of how to mold and manipulate their actual product, the PS3 version.
This was the impression I got when I discovered that the console release would follow the PC; that this is a focus group to smooth potential problems for the console. I don't know why else they would want to release for the PC prior to the console when the latter is sure to be where the overwhelming bulk of the sales will be garnered. Oddness.
What a troll post, assuming that just because you can't enjoy the game I must be fool because I can.
It's a bit like going down to the bowling alley and congratulating the owners on fooling so many people to playing because you find the use of bowling balls overly awkward to be enjoyable.
No one ever called you a fool for enjoying FFXIV, but they may call you a fool for saying its a good PC MMO.
Actually I think this is a great PC MMO as it stands right now. And I might even call some people fools for thinking otherwise just because they are too impatient to try. I can point to at least 15 posts on these forums this week alone where people have said the game 'sucks because.....' and turn right around and copy paste directly from the game exactly what they said wasnt there. Just because you dont want to take the time and effort to find it for yourself, doesnt mean it isnt there, and it doesnt mean the game sucks either.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
What a troll post, assuming that just because you can't enjoy the game I must be fool because I can.
It's a bit like going down to the bowling alley and congratulating the owners on fooling so many people to playing because you find the use of bowling balls overly awkward to be enjoyable.
No one ever called you a fool for enjoying FFXIV, but they may call you a fool for saying its a good PC MMO.
Foolish indeed is the sentiment that one who enjoys a PC MMO would be a fool to think it good at what it is.
The game has a few technical flaws (such as GUI lag and crashes) and a GUI that will rub people who aren't used to consle interfaces the wrong way. We all know it. However, it seems for some minds these fundamental facts will form an unsurmountable wall between them and their enjoyment of the game, while other minds have the capability to vault it.
This is one of several factors that will determine of FFXIV is right for you. For the rest of you: Lord oF The Rings Online has gone Free To Play for former subscribers/beta testers, public tommorrow, go to it.
I live in Japan as well and live in a 2LDK here with plent of room for a PC and a desk. In fact two PCs here. But they do like compact things here. Desks are sometimes not popular except for a small one in your room for school. But still, PC games are becomming a little more popular in Japan with social network games/castle building games. However these games do not require power horses to run.
Gaming style is also different here. On the move/Mobile gaming is more popular here. People just generally do not think of PCs as gaming machines until you hit Akihabara. If you go to a place like Yamada outside aki then you will just find laptops for the most part.
I went to a place in Akihabara that said they sell PC games to check if they had any American/English games. They did.. they had Diablo 2 + Expansion for about $80.00 lol.
They are really out of touch when it comes to the PC games. Starcraft 2? What? World of Warcraft? What? They will stick with companies they know from Japan. And they will not see any reason to buy a PC if they have a PS3 to play the same game as well. While most companies do not dwell into PC games here in Japan.
PC gaming never took hold here like it did in the US. I am going to the TGS next weekend and I will be sure to ask them some people's questions here if the FFXIV crew is there.
Most people here do not mind the grind... exp.. slow fights in the begining. Its just the frustration with the UI, Crafting, lag, and a few otehr little things.
I'd like to point out that I at no point stated that FFXIV is a bad game or that it can not be enjoyable to play however, this seems to be what people who instantly go against the thread appear to be thinking. FFXIV does not have ' a few technical flaws' because such a light statement would imply that FFXIV could be launched today in its current state and be acceptable. Also about SE statment on why PS3 version is delayed... you think content in beta is the only information they are not sharing with you? As if any company would stand up to say "We will be releasing the PC version first to generate some funds so that we can continue development of FFXIV till we are satisified for the PS3 release."?
The suits over at SE are running a business and I have no reason to believe someone who wants nothing more than the highest profit margin possible. I believe what I can see for myself and what I see in the FFXIV beta is an unfinished game. A good unfished game but the fact remains it is not ready.
What I don't understand is why people who have no problem with the game mechanics and enjoy playing the game feel compelled to come to a forum to defend the game and talk bad about people who are having a problem with the game. I mean, it is understood why people who have problems with a product come on forums to complain. It happens with any product that is released and does not meet market expectations. If you don't believe me, go to any forum of any faulty product and you will see gobs of posts with people complaining about that product. When a person is unhappy with a product they complain. It's just a natural human reaction.
If people want to complain, let them. Stop being so over-protective of the game. Reading some of your posts one would think your daddy owned SE, or that you owned stock in SE or something.
Again, if you are having no problems and you enjoy playing the game, then go play it and stop letting these forums rile you up so much.
What I don't understand is why people who have no problem with the game mechanics and enjoy playing the game feel compelled to come to a forum to defend the game and talk bad about people who are having a problem with the game. I mean, it is understood why people who have problems with a product come on forums to complain. It happens with any product that is released and does not meet market expectations. If you don't believe me, go to any forum of any faulty product and you will see gobs of posts with people complaining about that product. When a person is unhappy with a product they complain. It's just a natural human reaction.
If people want to complain, let them. Stop being so defensive about it.
Hm...how about NO? :P
In all seriousness, when players like a game, the last thing they want to see happen is for the game to go down or ends with a very small population. So when people start posting very negative feedback about various things, wether they are somewhat true or not, players feels the need to balance things out and point out that "Hey, not everyone thinks people should avoid this game, I like it and I'm enjoying it for "x" and "y" reasons and people should join too!".
Also, if you haven't noticed, you are complaining that players complain about negative feedback and that players should let people complain, yet you ask that these people let others complain but they cannot do the same.....doesn't quite make any sense no?
Once you play as many mmos as I have you realize that things like this are pretty standard for 99.9% of all mmo beta/launches. FF14 might have a few more bugs than normal, but its pretty well made class/crafting/gameplay system (conceptually, i.e. without any bugs) makes up for it imo.
If you havn't noticed, almost nothing that people are complaining about are related to gameplay, except for maybe lack of quests, but rather everything people complain about are related to bugs or UI. This means that once these bugs are sorted out, the game will actually be quite good compared to most mmos.
Well, once you've played as many MMO's as I have you will realize that the UI and such is just whats on peoples nerves the most at this given time. If and when thats corrected they will simply move on to the next item on the list.
FFXIV lost a decent amount of followers due to combat speed and game play already which also contributes to the "If you haven't noticed, almost nothing that people are complaining about are related to gameplay...." thing as well.
Those that had the game play and pace of combat issues high on there list have mostly quit following the game , for now at least. Those that can over look it have other issues higher on there lists, the most common being the UI.
Once the UI's fixed they will simply begin focusing on the next issue on there list.
I think a lot of the unresponsiveness the OP is getting has a lot to do with server lag. I haven't gotten that far in the game yet, but I have noticed some lag between changing menus and what-not, and I'm pretty sure it's not the game itself.
It is frustrating that they still haven't made a seamless way from going to your desktop from the game. FFXI had the same issues as well and only a mod fixed it so you can go into windowed mode at least. Have you tried windowed mode and alt-tabbing? I would assume it wouldn't crash then. Funny thing is that everytime I quit the game it freezes up and I have to CTRL-ALT-DELETE to end the program. I'm assuming that's something being looked at.
What I don't understand is why people who have no problem with the game mechanics and enjoy playing the game feel compelled to come to a forum to defend the game and talk bad about people who are having a problem with the game. I mean, it is understood why people who have problems with a product come on forums to complain. It happens with any product that is released and does not meet market expectations. If you don't believe me, go to any forum of any faulty product and you will see gobs of posts with people complaining about that product. When a person is unhappy with a product they complain. It's just a natural human reaction.
If people want to complain, let them. Stop being so defensive about it.
Hm...how about NO? :P
In all seriousness, when players like a game, the last thing they want to see happen is for the game to go down or ends with a very small population. So when people start posting very negative feedback about various things, wether they are somewhat true or not, players feels the need to balance things out and point out that "Hey, not everyone thinks people should avoid this game, I like it and I'm enjoying it for "x" and "y" reasons and people should join too!".
Also, if you haven't noticed, you are complaining that players complain about negative feedback and that players should let people complain, yet you ask that these people let others complain but they cannot do the same.....doesn't quite make any sense no?
I am expressing a dynamic that I don't understand. And that is why even care if people don't like the game? All that should matter is that you like it, the heck with those that don't.
If you are not having a problem with a microwave, do you go on their forums and defend the makers of that microwave against people who are complaining about it because they are having problems? I think not.
These people seems to want to really play the game but feel frustrated that they can not for the reason that they are venting about on these forums. I am guessing that by voicing their opinions, they have hopes that the message will get out to someone who can make a difference, and hence the game will get fixed. Being an ardent supporter of a product, and blindly supporting that product despite it's obvious problems, are not going to make the product better.
I mean, people criticizing the game are not criticizing you, so why do you feel compelled to criticize them. Praise the game if you feel the game is good, but jumping on people because they have a problem with the game just doesnt seem right.
I am expressing a dynamic that I don't understand. And that is why even care if people don't like the game? All that should matter is that you like it, the heck with those that don't.
If you are not having a problem with a microwave, do you go on their forums and defend the makers of that microwave against people who are complaining about it because they are having problems? I think not.
These people seems to want to really play the game but feel frustrated that they can not for the reason that they are venting about on these forums. I am guessing that by voicing their opinions, they have hopes that the message will get out to someone who can make a difference, and hence the game will get fixed. Being an ardent supporter of a product, and blindly supporting that product despite it's obvious problems, are not going to make the product better.
I mean, people criticizing the game are not criticizing you, so why do you feel compelled to criticize them. Praise the game if you feel the game is good, but jumping on people because they have a problem with the game just doesnt seem right.
I think it's mostly because many people who criticize a game negatively tend to overgeneralize or attack players in various ways, saying things like what OP said in his title : "Congratulating SE for fooling so many". Or when people call everyone else who doesn't agree with him, fanbois who have no clue what they are talking about. Or "I think we can all agree that this game sucks", etc.
These types of posts are VERY common over here at MMORPG.com and a few more websites for that matter. Players who actually do enjoy the game have all the reasons to feel targetted when their opinion is being diminished without reasons by people who don't simply post negative criticism about a game, but go beyond that and suggest that players should all do like him "because everyone is intelligent enough to make the right choice" and not buy "x" game. You can find many posts about people not liking "x" game, and you don't see (rarely) someone bashing an OP when the OP clearly makes the distinction between his personal preferences and beliefs, why he didn't like the game, and doesn't push his opinion on others. These types of posts are very well received, people understand, so there's no need to "bash" anyone.
But those "You're an idiot if you don't do like me"-threads needs to go....
I mean, people criticizing the game are not criticizing you, so why do you feel compelled to criticize them. Praise the game if you feel the game is good, but jumping on people because they have a problem with the game just doesnt seem right.
This is one of the inherent differences between review-writing and posting in message-boards. In a full review, it's a given that you must post not only the negatives, but the positives as well. By balancing one side with the other in a review, the readers are given the ability to make an informed decision by weighing both sides for themselves. A 'good review' is one that retains a level of objectivity insofar as ensuring both sides of the argument for every important aspect of the game receive equal attention. In the case that a person finds a review that's obviously slanted in one direction or the other (for whatever reason), that reader would best be served in finding another review slanted in the other direction, by which to 'even things out' and get a complete picture of the pros AND cons. That's of course assuming you can't find a 'good review', which is almost always the case these days since the internet is flooded with would-be 'reporters' and 'game-experts'.
In forum-posts though, no one expects an objective view of pretty much anything, and the argument CANNOT be made that negative comments on a non-official message-board is an attempt to 'help fix the issue' by bringing it to the attention of the game-developers. At the very least, if it is an attempt, it's a really bad one. The best way to do that is with bug reports and by posting the information via the official forum. On a message-board such as this one, which has no connection at all to SE, the only reasonable response to a post with an obviously slanted bias is to try and create a balance so that the readers (in this case, the obvious 'targets' of the post) receive more than simply the negatives or the positives.
You have to admit though, this thread has a title that seems pretty much designed to insight flaming- I don't think anyone can blame the heated masses when a game-developer is accused of vicious deception. Especially in this case when, for all intents and purposes, it appears (to me at least) that SE is being more honest about their own game than a great majority of other developers these days.
My only real comment on the thread topic itself is: this obviously isn't a commercial beta (which has become such a popular past-time for some game-developers to increase the 'hype' for a game as of late). As it isn't a commercial beta, it's obviously a 'real' beta, in which a lot of the issues still exist and are being worked on while they test server capacities and other issues popping up. The reason why the previous Final Fantasy titles were released without 'betas' (a funny idea for non-MMOs anyways) is because they spent an exorbitant amount of time in self-testing. The issue with that method is that, while it keeps a tighter lid on the content and systems before launch, it also takes a lot longer. They wanted to get this game out faster, and so they're relying on users to help with the process. Those of us who take up that charge, and who signed the forms to participate in closed and open betas, are more than happy to help and spend our free-time in working out the kinks to an otherwise good game.
Those who signed up just to /dance in-game and then spend the rest of their time flaming the /dance system out of the sight of SE are at least helping to test server stability and capacity limits I suppose, so thanks OP.
~Lysander
Do you play Go? (Weiqi, Baduk, iGo) ------------------------------------------
I am expressing a dynamic that I don't understand. And that is why even care if people don't like the game? All that should matter is that you like it, the heck with those that don't.
If you are not having a problem with a microwave, do you go on their forums and defend the makers of that microwave against people who are complaining about it because they are having problems? I think not.
These people seems to want to really play the game but feel frustrated that they can not for the reason that they are venting about on these forums. I am guessing that by voicing their opinions, they have hopes that the message will get out to someone who can make a difference, and hence the game will get fixed. Being an ardent supporter of a product, and blindly supporting that product despite it's obvious problems, are not going to make the product better.
I mean, people criticizing the game are not criticizing you, so why do you feel compelled to criticize them. Praise the game if you feel the game is good, but jumping on people because they have a problem with the game just doesnt seem right.
I think it's mostly because many people who criticize a game negatively tend to overgeneralize or attack players in various ways, saying things like what OP said in his title : "Congratulating SE for fooling so many". Or when people call everyone else who doesn't agree with him, fanbois who have no clue what they are talking about. Or "I think we can all agree that this game sucks", etc.
These types of posts are VERY common over here at MMORPG.com and a few more websites for that matter. Players who actually do enjoy the game have all the reasons to feel targetted when their opinion is being diminished without reasons by people who don't simply post negative criticism about a game, but go beyond that and suggest that players should all do like him "because everyone is intelligent enough to make the right choice" and not buy "x" game. You can find many posts about people not liking "x" game, and you don't see (rarely) someone bashing an OP when the OP clearly makes the distinction between his personal preferences and beliefs, why he didn't like the game, and doesn't push his opinion on others. These types of posts are very well received, people understand, so there's no need to "bash" anyone.
But those "You're an idiot if you don't do like me"-threads needs to go....
OK, I see your point. Personally, I love final fantasy. I think it's really cute and it fits my playstyle. I know that I want to play the game, but at the same time, I am glad that people are speaking up about the parts of the game that they think are bad and need fixing so that when I play the game it can be a fun and enjoyable experience. I don't want to be frustrated with things like mouse lag, and crashes, and UI problems, and surplus (if its a bad thing) etc, so I don't mind people bringing these things up because ultimately it will help everyone. Yes, even people that like the game will benefit from people complaining. If nobody complains, then the game will not get better, right?
Anyways, I do see your point of view but remember, where there is smoke, there is fire. When you have this many people complaining about pretty much the same problems, then there must be some credibility about the problems. If you don't let the problems be heard, then nobody will bring the water ...
... and the whole house will burn down to the ground anyways.
OK, I see your point. Personally, I love final fantasy. I think it's really cute and it fits my playstyle. I know that I want to play the game, but at the same time, I am glad that people are speaking up about the parts of the game that they think are bad and need fixing so that when I play the game it can be a fun and enjoyable experience. I don't want to be frustrated with things like mouse lag, and crashes, and UI problems, and surplus (if its a bad thing) etc, so I don't mind people bringing these things up because ultimately it will help everyone. Yes, even people that like the game will benefit from people complaining. If nobody complains, then the game will not get better, right?
Anyways, I do see your point of view but remember, where there is smoke, there is fire. When you have this many people complaining about pretty much the same problems, then there must be some credibility about the problems. If you don't let the problems be heard, then nobody will bring the water ...
... and the whole house will burn down to the ground anyways.
Oh I am all aware of this. I've played DarkFall since Launch, I've seen pretty much every negative and positive threads that could be made :P
I see a lot less players crying about FFXIV than I saw with DarkFall or most recent P2P MMOs for that matter. It's clearly being blown-out of proportion here, and players are still forgetting about the fact that FFXIV is an actual Beta and not a released game (though the released version will bring it's share of new bugs and lags that's for sure). And I think the word is getting out already, many players have reported their issues to the Customer Support, some patches have clearly helped many players have a much smoother gaming experience, and it's still a work in progress.
It's being blown-out of proportion by a few players. But I can't deny the obvious flaws to the patcher or in-game Lag with the UI or Mouse. But as many players have noticed an increased performance since the recent patch, it's proof the SE are working on it. Let's keep the complains "after" they Launch the game. Then we'll have legitimate reasons to "bash" SE for "doing it wrong".
Lysander makes a pretty good point. FFXIV did launch a more realistic beta. To my understanding, SE is basically saying; "k this is where we are in the production, tell us what you think." Which is how betas should be to begin with. Sure they're also suppose to hype the game but ryou should also not try to bleach bloody hands if you get what I'm saying. Game producers should just lay out the blue prints and tell gamers to have at it, not try to fix every problem as fast as possible which leads to even bigger problems (like what happened with Conan's release) and the laugh ending up being really shitty.
Also, on a side note: When bringing up the problematics of -not just FFXIV - but with any MMO out there, those topics should be posted on a specific forum releated solely to that game. Flaming about an issue on MMOrpg will only do two things: One, it will inform other players about the problem, and possibly two, make people quit the game entirely (depending on the level of the issue). Which, in some cases, would not be that bad because people who usaully complain about "issues" in a game are actually just complainging about something they don't like or simply don't understand. And thus, those people don't deserve to play the game anyway .
... those people don't deserve to play the game anyway .
Even with a smiley face that makes me wince. Ouch for choice of wording.. otherwise agree.
*Edit - Before anybody else posts, I know that's sarcasm.. or at least should be, just a way to exaggerate a point.. but tacking such things on to a valid argument de-validifies it more than a bit, at least in my opinion. Cheers.
Objectivity is delivered with a lack of personality made for the mainstream but never used for the mainstream.
I live in Japan and what you must realize is the Japanese PC gaming community is almost non-existent. Nobody has the space for a huge desktop PC - thus SE naturally focuses on console titles. (The Japanese version is no different from US)
Kudo's to SE for trying to expand their audience, but I think they are over-extending their market presence. Considering the inevitable critical pounding they are going to take, I don't think it was worth it.
Putting all their eggs in the PS3 basket might have been too narrow-minded or safe, but they will soon realize the only market for this game will be for the PS3 gamers.
Agree with me or not, but it is naive to think your average PC gamer will stick with this title very long if at all. (SWTOR, f2p LOTR, WoW Cata, etc.)
Considering the PS3 version is not out until next year, I think they are just using the PC market to get a better sense of how to mold and manipulate their actual product, the PS3 version.
I dont know if you have heard of a little game called FFXI thats been out for 8 years now on PS2, XBOX 360 as well as PC and was one of the top 5 most succesfull MMOs on the market for a long time. I do not see how SE making another game that follows the same already laid down path of its predecessor could possibly be overzelous. The game is not for everyone as we have already established . Neither was FFXI. You either fell in love with FFXI or it drove you away within 1 week. The game for those who fell in love was an amazing experience, full of excitement, new friendships, hard fights, sometime long tedious battles but all worth it. Most FFXI players know what to expect of FFXIV and we know that SE wont let us down where it counts. Storytelling, and a rich enviroment where we can meet old friends and make new ones.
I don't get why OP thinks SE have fooled people. Sure, the game has issues and should probably not be released for another 2 months or so until they fixed them. But since we are MMO players we all know that they will release it anyways and fix those issues later.
It is annoying but how does that fool anyone? Every single MMO besides LOTRO (And GW if you count it as a MMO) have done the same thing. Nothing surprises me more than when a MMO releases in good shape (and LOTRO BTW had very little content at launch).
Always wait a few months after release to buy a MMO, this can't be a surprise to anyone.
I have only played a handful of MMO's and only 2 at launch, Vanguard and AoC. Can I pick'em or what, lol. I have said I would never play at launch again unless it is a game I have really been looking forward to (thats why I tried AoC). And then I would really try to get in the beta cause I want to help improve the game (added bonus of sneak peek of the game). Other then that I will and have waited till a free trial becomes available to check out the game. I will try FFXIV when the have a free trial and them make my mind up and while I have not been to keen on how SE seems to be handling the launch of the game both in beta and the regular launch thats not a game breaker for me.
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Always wait a few months after release to buy a MMO, this can't be a surprise to anyone.
I agree on you with this, plus economy will be stable by then (hopefully) and it's easier to find/craft/etc stuff. There is no significant advantage starting early unless they have bonus pre-order item (like FF14 in this case) that you really want or just plain cool to have.
Originally posted by MMHEL Originally posted by Clocksimus FFXIV is not a finished product and if you want a clear beyond a reasonable doubt reason that it is not, then I will simply ask.... why is the PS3 version not being release?
http://www.vg247.com/2010/08/24/ffxiv-ps3-delay-down-to-memory-says-square-enix/ Learn to google things, before you assume stuff. Honestly, your bitching over problems that CAN and WILL be fixed. Just wait, and try it out in couple months after release. Like everyone said nothing is wrong content wise. Also about 75% of graphically advanced games have that alt-tab problem. Computers just cant handle that kind of stress and processing. They didnt fool anyone, you fooled yourself. MMO's are rarely 100% complete at launch, let alone open beta.
Let me correct that. a mmorpg is never 100% finished until the server closes for good, least in my view, since they are always constantly evolving changing, getting better (usually worse lol nerfs suck).
"An MMORPG could be completely diffirent from WoW. Just look at games like Dofus, Wizard101 or EVE. But as it is, most of the Western MMOs are trying to succeed by out-WoWing WoW. It's like an army of 10 sports games made about same sports, and barely none about other sports. WoW clone is an accurate description of those games, it manages to convey much information with only two words." -Poster on mmorpg.com
Rift: World of Warcraft clone #9321 Nothing special to see here move along.
I mean, people criticizing the game are not criticizing you, so why do you feel compelled to criticize them. Praise the game if you feel the game is good, but jumping on people because they have a problem with the game just doesnt seem right.
This is one of the inherent differences between review-writing and posting in message-boards. In a full review, it's a given that you must post not only the negatives, but the positives as well. By balancing one side with the other in a review, the readers are given the ability to make an informed decision by weighing both sides for themselves. A 'good review' is one that retains a level of objectivity insofar as ensuring both sides of the argument for every important aspect of the game receive equal attention. In the case that a person finds a review that's obviously slanted in one direction or the other (for whatever reason), that reader would best be served in finding another review slanted in the other direction, by which to 'even things out' and get a complete picture of the pros AND cons. That's of course assuming you can't find a 'good review', which is almost always the case these days since the internet is flooded with would-be 'reporters' and 'game-experts'.
In forum-posts though, no one expects an objective view of pretty much anything, and the argument CANNOT be made that negative comments on a non-official message-board is an attempt to 'help fix the issue' by bringing it to the attention of the game-developers. At the very least, if it is an attempt, it's a really bad one. The best way to do that is with bug reports and by posting the information via the official forum. On a message-board such as this one, which has no connection at all to SE, the only reasonable response to a post with an obviously slanted bias is to try and create a balance so that the readers (in this case, the obvious 'targets' of the post) receive more than simply the negatives or the positives.
You have to admit though, this thread has a title that seems pretty much designed to insight flaming- I don't think anyone can blame the heated masses when a game-developer is accused of vicious deception. Especially in this case when, for all intents and purposes, it appears (to me at least) that SE is being more honest about their own game than a great majority of other developers these days.
My only real comment on the thread topic itself is: this obviously isn't a commercial beta (which has become such a popular past-time for some game-developers to increase the 'hype' for a game as of late). As it isn't a commercial beta, it's obviously a 'real' beta, in which a lot of the issues still exist and are being worked on while they test server capacities and other issues popping up. The reason why the previous Final Fantasy titles were released without 'betas' (a funny idea for non-MMOs anyways) is because they spent an exorbitant amount of time in self-testing. The issue with that method is that, while it keeps a tighter lid on the content and systems before launch, it also takes a lot longer. They wanted to get this game out faster, and so they're relying on users to help with the process. Those of us who take up that charge, and who signed the forms to participate in closed and open betas, are more than happy to help and spend our free-time in working out the kinks to an otherwise good game.
Those who signed up just to /dance in-game and then spend the rest of their time flaming the /dance system out of the sight of SE are at least helping to test server stability and capacity limits I suppose, so thanks OP.
~Lysander
Excellent post, very well said Lysander.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Comments
What a troll post, assuming that just because you can't enjoy the game I must be fool because I can.
It's a bit like going down to the bowling alley and congratulating the owners on fooling so many people to playing because you find the use of bowling balls overly awkward to be enjoyable.
You do realize that you don't have to buy the game at release if it doesn't meet your standard. You can buy the game at any point you feel justifies your monthly subscription.
Shocking as it may seem, I happen to believe that the game, AS IS, justifies me paying 12.99 a month. IF after 5 months nothing has changed and I exhausted the content, I'll cancel my sub until more stuff is added or the game improves.
What's stopping people who don't like the current state of teh game from picking it up later....yuo're not obligated to play at release. Maybe SE thinks its better to fix as they go and that the game is 85%, 90%, 95% complete. I'd rather get a chance to play FFXIV at 85% now, rather than 100% 6 months later.
You know why? Because it's going to take me at least 6 months to experience a fraction of the 85% that is completed. As for UI issues, they're only issues if they bother you sooooo much that it makes playing unbearable. As for me, it is a minor annoyance. The only time it matters is when it takes me 10 minutes to sell the stuff in my inventory, where as 90% of my time is spend crafting or in combat.
To each his own.
the average drug addict blows thru 50 bucks for an hour long high, lol
This was the impression I got when I discovered that the console release would follow the PC; that this is a focus group to smooth potential problems for the console. I don't know why else they would want to release for the PC prior to the console when the latter is sure to be where the overwhelming bulk of the sales will be garnered. Oddness.
Actually I think this is a great PC MMO as it stands right now. And I might even call some people fools for thinking otherwise just because they are too impatient to try. I can point to at least 15 posts on these forums this week alone where people have said the game 'sucks because.....' and turn right around and copy paste directly from the game exactly what they said wasnt there. Just because you dont want to take the time and effort to find it for yourself, doesnt mean it isnt there, and it doesnt mean the game sucks either.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Foolish indeed is the sentiment that one who enjoys a PC MMO would be a fool to think it good at what it is.
The game has a few technical flaws (such as GUI lag and crashes) and a GUI that will rub people who aren't used to consle interfaces the wrong way. We all know it. However, it seems for some minds these fundamental facts will form an unsurmountable wall between them and their enjoyment of the game, while other minds have the capability to vault it.
This is one of several factors that will determine of FFXIV is right for you. For the rest of you: Lord oF The Rings Online has gone Free To Play for former subscribers/beta testers, public tommorrow, go to it.
I live in Japan as well and live in a 2LDK here with plent of room for a PC and a desk. In fact two PCs here. But they do like compact things here. Desks are sometimes not popular except for a small one in your room for school. But still, PC games are becomming a little more popular in Japan with social network games/castle building games. However these games do not require power horses to run.
Gaming style is also different here. On the move/Mobile gaming is more popular here. People just generally do not think of PCs as gaming machines until you hit Akihabara. If you go to a place like Yamada outside aki then you will just find laptops for the most part.
I went to a place in Akihabara that said they sell PC games to check if they had any American/English games. They did.. they had Diablo 2 + Expansion for about $80.00 lol.
They are really out of touch when it comes to the PC games. Starcraft 2? What? World of Warcraft? What? They will stick with companies they know from Japan. And they will not see any reason to buy a PC if they have a PS3 to play the same game as well. While most companies do not dwell into PC games here in Japan.
PC gaming never took hold here like it did in the US. I am going to the TGS next weekend and I will be sure to ask them some people's questions here if the FFXIV crew is there.
Most people here do not mind the grind... exp.. slow fights in the begining. Its just the frustration with the UI, Crafting, lag, and a few otehr little things.
- ya I'm here
I'd like to point out that I at no point stated that FFXIV is a bad game or that it can not be enjoyable to play however, this seems to be what people who instantly go against the thread appear to be thinking. FFXIV does not have ' a few technical flaws' because such a light statement would imply that FFXIV could be launched today in its current state and be acceptable. Also about SE statment on why PS3 version is delayed... you think content in beta is the only information they are not sharing with you? As if any company would stand up to say "We will be releasing the PC version first to generate some funds so that we can continue development of FFXIV till we are satisified for the PS3 release."?
The suits over at SE are running a business and I have no reason to believe someone who wants nothing more than the highest profit margin possible. I believe what I can see for myself and what I see in the FFXIV beta is an unfinished game. A good unfished game but the fact remains it is not ready.
What I don't understand is why people who have no problem with the game mechanics and enjoy playing the game feel compelled to come to a forum to defend the game and talk bad about people who are having a problem with the game. I mean, it is understood why people who have problems with a product come on forums to complain. It happens with any product that is released and does not meet market expectations. If you don't believe me, go to any forum of any faulty product and you will see gobs of posts with people complaining about that product. When a person is unhappy with a product they complain. It's just a natural human reaction.
If people want to complain, let them. Stop being so over-protective of the game. Reading some of your posts one would think your daddy owned SE, or that you owned stock in SE or something.
Again, if you are having no problems and you enjoy playing the game, then go play it and stop letting these forums rile you up so much.
Hm...how about NO? :P
In all seriousness, when players like a game, the last thing they want to see happen is for the game to go down or ends with a very small population. So when people start posting very negative feedback about various things, wether they are somewhat true or not, players feels the need to balance things out and point out that "Hey, not everyone thinks people should avoid this game, I like it and I'm enjoying it for "x" and "y" reasons and people should join too!".
Also, if you haven't noticed, you are complaining that players complain about negative feedback and that players should let people complain, yet you ask that these people let others complain but they cannot do the same.....doesn't quite make any sense no?
Well, once you've played as many MMO's as I have you will realize that the UI and such is just whats on peoples nerves the most at this given time. If and when thats corrected they will simply move on to the next item on the list.
FFXIV lost a decent amount of followers due to combat speed and game play already which also contributes to the "If you haven't noticed, almost nothing that people are complaining about are related to gameplay...." thing as well.
Those that had the game play and pace of combat issues high on there list have mostly quit following the game , for now at least. Those that can over look it have other issues higher on there lists, the most common being the UI.
Once the UI's fixed they will simply begin focusing on the next issue on there list.
I think a lot of the unresponsiveness the OP is getting has a lot to do with server lag. I haven't gotten that far in the game yet, but I have noticed some lag between changing menus and what-not, and I'm pretty sure it's not the game itself.
It is frustrating that they still haven't made a seamless way from going to your desktop from the game. FFXI had the same issues as well and only a mod fixed it so you can go into windowed mode at least. Have you tried windowed mode and alt-tabbing? I would assume it wouldn't crash then. Funny thing is that everytime I quit the game it freezes up and I have to CTRL-ALT-DELETE to end the program. I'm assuming that's something being looked at.
I am expressing a dynamic that I don't understand. And that is why even care if people don't like the game? All that should matter is that you like it, the heck with those that don't.
If you are not having a problem with a microwave, do you go on their forums and defend the makers of that microwave against people who are complaining about it because they are having problems? I think not.
These people seems to want to really play the game but feel frustrated that they can not for the reason that they are venting about on these forums. I am guessing that by voicing their opinions, they have hopes that the message will get out to someone who can make a difference, and hence the game will get fixed. Being an ardent supporter of a product, and blindly supporting that product despite it's obvious problems, are not going to make the product better.
I mean, people criticizing the game are not criticizing you, so why do you feel compelled to criticize them. Praise the game if you feel the game is good, but jumping on people because they have a problem with the game just doesnt seem right.
I think it's mostly because many people who criticize a game negatively tend to overgeneralize or attack players in various ways, saying things like what OP said in his title : "Congratulating SE for fooling so many". Or when people call everyone else who doesn't agree with him, fanbois who have no clue what they are talking about. Or "I think we can all agree that this game sucks", etc.
These types of posts are VERY common over here at MMORPG.com and a few more websites for that matter. Players who actually do enjoy the game have all the reasons to feel targetted when their opinion is being diminished without reasons by people who don't simply post negative criticism about a game, but go beyond that and suggest that players should all do like him "because everyone is intelligent enough to make the right choice" and not buy "x" game. You can find many posts about people not liking "x" game, and you don't see (rarely) someone bashing an OP when the OP clearly makes the distinction between his personal preferences and beliefs, why he didn't like the game, and doesn't push his opinion on others. These types of posts are very well received, people understand, so there's no need to "bash" anyone.
But those "You're an idiot if you don't do like me"-threads needs to go....
This is one of the inherent differences between review-writing and posting in message-boards. In a full review, it's a given that you must post not only the negatives, but the positives as well. By balancing one side with the other in a review, the readers are given the ability to make an informed decision by weighing both sides for themselves. A 'good review' is one that retains a level of objectivity insofar as ensuring both sides of the argument for every important aspect of the game receive equal attention. In the case that a person finds a review that's obviously slanted in one direction or the other (for whatever reason), that reader would best be served in finding another review slanted in the other direction, by which to 'even things out' and get a complete picture of the pros AND cons. That's of course assuming you can't find a 'good review', which is almost always the case these days since the internet is flooded with would-be 'reporters' and 'game-experts'.
In forum-posts though, no one expects an objective view of pretty much anything, and the argument CANNOT be made that negative comments on a non-official message-board is an attempt to 'help fix the issue' by bringing it to the attention of the game-developers. At the very least, if it is an attempt, it's a really bad one. The best way to do that is with bug reports and by posting the information via the official forum. On a message-board such as this one, which has no connection at all to SE, the only reasonable response to a post with an obviously slanted bias is to try and create a balance so that the readers (in this case, the obvious 'targets' of the post) receive more than simply the negatives or the positives.
You have to admit though, this thread has a title that seems pretty much designed to insight flaming- I don't think anyone can blame the heated masses when a game-developer is accused of vicious deception. Especially in this case when, for all intents and purposes, it appears (to me at least) that SE is being more honest about their own game than a great majority of other developers these days.
My only real comment on the thread topic itself is: this obviously isn't a commercial beta (which has become such a popular past-time for some game-developers to increase the 'hype' for a game as of late). As it isn't a commercial beta, it's obviously a 'real' beta, in which a lot of the issues still exist and are being worked on while they test server capacities and other issues popping up. The reason why the previous Final Fantasy titles were released without 'betas' (a funny idea for non-MMOs anyways) is because they spent an exorbitant amount of time in self-testing. The issue with that method is that, while it keeps a tighter lid on the content and systems before launch, it also takes a lot longer. They wanted to get this game out faster, and so they're relying on users to help with the process. Those of us who take up that charge, and who signed the forms to participate in closed and open betas, are more than happy to help and spend our free-time in working out the kinks to an otherwise good game.
Those who signed up just to /dance in-game and then spend the rest of their time flaming the /dance system out of the sight of SE are at least helping to test server stability and capacity limits I suppose, so thanks OP.
~Lysander
Do you play Go? (Weiqi, Baduk, iGo)
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OK, I see your point. Personally, I love final fantasy. I think it's really cute and it fits my playstyle. I know that I want to play the game, but at the same time, I am glad that people are speaking up about the parts of the game that they think are bad and need fixing so that when I play the game it can be a fun and enjoyable experience. I don't want to be frustrated with things like mouse lag, and crashes, and UI problems, and surplus (if its a bad thing) etc, so I don't mind people bringing these things up because ultimately it will help everyone. Yes, even people that like the game will benefit from people complaining. If nobody complains, then the game will not get better, right?
Anyways, I do see your point of view but remember, where there is smoke, there is fire. When you have this many people complaining about pretty much the same problems, then there must be some credibility about the problems. If you don't let the problems be heard, then nobody will bring the water ...
... and the whole house will burn down to the ground anyways.
Oh I am all aware of this. I've played DarkFall since Launch, I've seen pretty much every negative and positive threads that could be made :P
I see a lot less players crying about FFXIV than I saw with DarkFall or most recent P2P MMOs for that matter. It's clearly being blown-out of proportion here, and players are still forgetting about the fact that FFXIV is an actual Beta and not a released game (though the released version will bring it's share of new bugs and lags that's for sure). And I think the word is getting out already, many players have reported their issues to the Customer Support, some patches have clearly helped many players have a much smoother gaming experience, and it's still a work in progress.
It's being blown-out of proportion by a few players. But I can't deny the obvious flaws to the patcher or in-game Lag with the UI or Mouse. But as many players have noticed an increased performance since the recent patch, it's proof the SE are working on it. Let's keep the complains "after" they Launch the game. Then we'll have legitimate reasons to "bash" SE for "doing it wrong".
Lysander makes a pretty good point. FFXIV did launch a more realistic beta. To my understanding, SE is basically saying; "k this is where we are in the production, tell us what you think." Which is how betas should be to begin with. Sure they're also suppose to hype the game but ryou should also not try to bleach bloody hands if you get what I'm saying. Game producers should just lay out the blue prints and tell gamers to have at it, not try to fix every problem as fast as possible which leads to even bigger problems (like what happened with Conan's release) and the laugh ending up being really shitty.
Also, on a side note: When bringing up the problematics of -not just FFXIV - but with any MMO out there, those topics should be posted on a specific forum releated solely to that game. Flaming about an issue on MMOrpg will only do two things: One, it will inform other players about the problem, and possibly two, make people quit the game entirely (depending on the level of the issue). Which, in some cases, would not be that bad because people who usaully complain about "issues" in a game are actually just complainging about something they don't like or simply don't understand. And thus, those people don't deserve to play the game anyway .
Even with a smiley face that makes me wince. Ouch for choice of wording.. otherwise agree.
*Edit - Before anybody else posts, I know that's sarcasm.. or at least should be, just a way to exaggerate a point.. but tacking such things on to a valid argument de-validifies it more than a bit, at least in my opinion. Cheers.
Objectivity is delivered with a lack of personality made for the mainstream but never used for the mainstream.
I dont know if you have heard of a little game called FFXI thats been out for 8 years now on PS2, XBOX 360 as well as PC and was one of the top 5 most succesfull MMOs on the market for a long time. I do not see how SE making another game that follows the same already laid down path of its predecessor could possibly be overzelous. The game is not for everyone as we have already established
. Neither was FFXI. You either fell in love with FFXI or it drove you away within 1 week. The game for those who fell in love was an amazing experience, full of excitement, new friendships, hard fights, sometime long tedious battles but all worth it. Most FFXI players know what to expect of FFXIV and we know that SE wont let us down where it counts. Storytelling, and a rich enviroment where we can meet old friends and make new ones.
I don't get why OP thinks SE have fooled people. Sure, the game has issues and should probably not be released for another 2 months or so until they fixed them. But since we are MMO players we all know that they will release it anyways and fix those issues later.
It is annoying but how does that fool anyone? Every single MMO besides LOTRO (And GW if you count it as a MMO) have done the same thing. Nothing surprises me more than when a MMO releases in good shape (and LOTRO BTW had very little content at launch).
Always wait a few months after release to buy a MMO, this can't be a surprise to anyone.
I have only played a handful of MMO's and only 2 at launch, Vanguard and AoC. Can I pick'em or what, lol. I have said I would never play at launch again unless it is a game I have really been looking forward to (thats why I tried AoC). And then I would really try to get in the beta cause I want to help improve the game (added bonus of sneak peek of the game). Other then that I will and have waited till a free trial becomes available to check out the game. I will try FFXIV when the have a free trial and them make my mind up and while I have not been to keen on how SE seems to be handling the launch of the game both in beta and the regular launch thats not a game breaker for me.
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Groucho Marx
I agree on you with this, plus economy will be stable by then (hopefully) and it's easier to find/craft/etc stuff. There is no significant advantage starting early unless they have bonus pre-order item (like FF14 in this case) that you really want or just plain cool to have.
Learn to google things, before you assume stuff.
Honestly, your bitching over problems that CAN and WILL be fixed. Just wait, and try it out in couple months after release. Like everyone said nothing is wrong content wise.
Also about 75% of graphically advanced games have that alt-tab problem. Computers just cant handle that kind of stress and processing.
They didnt fool anyone, you fooled yourself. MMO's are rarely 100% complete at launch, let alone open beta.
Let me correct that. a mmorpg is never 100% finished until the server closes for good, least in my view, since they are always constantly evolving changing, getting better (usually worse lol nerfs suck).
"An MMORPG could be completely diffirent from WoW. Just look at games like Dofus, Wizard101 or EVE. But as it is, most of the Western MMOs are trying to succeed by out-WoWing WoW. It's like an army of 10 sports games made about same sports, and barely none about other sports. WoW clone is an accurate description of those games, it manages to convey much information with only two words."
-Poster on mmorpg.com
Rift: World of Warcraft clone #9321 Nothing special to see here move along.
Excellent post, very well said Lysander.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)