The irony is that your argument in supports the idea of crafters serving a purpose. There's nothing there, NOTHING, that makes crafters worth the trouble of interacting with or going through all that.
You know what makes crafters serve a purpose? Crafting items that are GOOD and being able to sell or otherwise distribute those items to a community. An AH then facilitates this really well, but even that only serves a purpose IF they can craft items that are good (which a different matter altogether).
Like you said, a system like this might encourage/force people to befriend crafters...since the system sucks so bad it is generally not worth dealing with. That of course makes it harder for crafters to get the raw materials they need to craft...and all this generally retards the market by making leveling crafting more difficult. Overall it is a mess.
So are you saying that there are no good craftable items? are we talking about ffxiv here? due to the game only being in the beta phase, im going to come to the conclusion that you are mistaken. i already know for a fact that certain items/weapons will only be atainable through crafting. this in itself servers a purpose for seeking out that master craftsman of goldsmithing or etc.
how did you come to your conclusion about the crafting? im very curiuos about this
No, I am saying what makes crafting worthwhile in a given MMO isn't the system for selling goods, but rather the fact that they make items that are worth getting. The person I was responding to acted like it was the selling system that made crafting great, when that isn't the case at all.
Id assume there is more content the n in OB just because it would be absurd to release the game otherwise.However, I havent seen them make this statement anywhere so I see no real proof that there will be a ton of content at launch time.I hope we are right and the game will have real content cause its a shell atm.
No. You can't go on and on about how GREAT it was that the Fishing Guild controlled fish prices in FFXI because there was no AH and then turn around and say an AH makes it easier. Either they are bad things and FFXI having them is bad or they are good things in which case your argument here falls apart (and I've never seen a Cartel work well in a game with an AH...there's just too much competition that is accessible). Pick an argument and stick with it.
I never said it was good, I said it was bad and gave you 1 reason why it was bad, the easy creation of price fixing.
And I, for one, do not enjoy wasting my time haggling. I'd rather use an AH-like system and "haggle" there by picking a price I like or not buying if it is too expensive. Besides, it isn't like you can haggle with a retainer.
You don't like haggling because you don't like trading, you are proving my point. And you can haggle with a retainer.
Ahh, I misread you. Sorry about that. All that said, I've never personally seen a cartel actually work in an AH game. Seems it would be easier in a bazaar system when you can control all the most easily accessible bazaar spots and it is cheaper to buyout the people near those spots (harder to find people you don't even have to deal with). I don't see what so magical about bazaars here. I've played some bazaar games and I've more often found them to be where someone buys up and controls a resource.
Again, I ask you to link to me this information about retainers, because I only found information about them holding things for you and setting them up as storefronts. Nothing about haggling with them or sending them out to find things for you.
As for trading, I certainly like using an AH and getting goods easily. I do not like spending a lot of time doing that. I like trading and economies in MMOs generally speaking, but I do NOT like haggling. There's a big difference.
Id assume there is more content the n in OB just because it would be absurd to release the game otherwise.However, I havent seen them make this statement anywhere so I see no real proof that there will be a ton of content at launch time.I hope we are right and the game will have real content cause its a shell atm.
Ultimately it ends up like this. People will buy the game if they like it and people won't buy the game if they don't. Trying to rationlize this will just leave you frustrated and confused =P.
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The irony is that your argument in supports the idea of crafters serving a purpose. There's nothing there, NOTHING, that makes crafters worth the trouble of interacting with or going through all that.
You know what makes crafters serve a purpose? Crafting items that are GOOD and being able to sell or otherwise distribute those items to a community. An AH then facilitates this really well, but even that only serves a purpose IF they can craft items that are good (which a different matter altogether).
Like you said, a system like this might encourage/force people to befriend crafters...since the system sucks so bad it is generally not worth dealing with. That of course makes it harder for crafters to get the raw materials they need to craft...and all this generally retards the market by making leveling crafting more difficult. Overall it is a mess.
So are you saying that there are no good craftable items? are we talking about ffxiv here? due to the game only being in the beta phase, im going to come to the conclusion that you are mistaken. i already know for a fact that certain items/weapons will only be atainable through crafting. this in itself servers a purpose for seeking out that master craftsman of goldsmithing or etc.
how did you come to your conclusion about the crafting? im very curiuos about this
No, I am saying what makes crafting worthwhile in a given MMO isn't the system for selling goods, but rather the fact that they make items that are worth getting. The person I was responding to acted like it was the selling system that made crafting great, when that isn't the case at all.
my mistake then, but i do think that the way items are sold does add to the crafting element. i.e in shadowbane, our town rolled very good rings somehow. no idea why, but thats just how it played out. the fact that people would travel to our town just to buy the stuff we sold, even if it was over priced for people not in our nation, made it that much more fun.
its kinda boring when you can just look at an AH for new items. i would be more excited personally if an ls mate saw some really great weapon on a retainer or in a bazaar that hes never seen in game before. that would make me go there just to see it, maybe even try to buy it. To me crafting is the act of making, selling, and buying goods.
Before the advent of "bind on equip" auction houses made crafter completely worthless because 90% of people recycled gear. What AH do to crafter now is remove all forms of player interaction, which is bad for a vibrant economy. What it also does is FIX prices, which destroys the art of trading. For instance, in FFXI the price of Carp was controlled by the fishing guild. They didn't have a monopoly on the item, but they effectively sold every single Carp they got for 4k that the price became 4k. Where was the art of haggling or trading in that, there wasn't any. This has happened in other games as well, especially with rare material. The people who get the "rares" first fix the prices to the point that, even when they become common, the price still is artificially high.
What the retainer/100s of player shops does is allow for the most common items to be sold easily, while the rare items are more difficult to attain. This manes that players will actually have the option of haggling on a more regular basis, this means that people who pay attention to the market price can turn a profit easier, etc. Trading will actually be important, and by design crafting will be doubly so. The most common crafted items will actually sell for a decent price and be worth crafting. Players who enter the game late and want to be crafters won't feel like they are grinding because their items will always be in demand for a reasonable price because trading is slightly more difficult.
TLDR: AH system destroy trading. They are nothing more than a recycle bin that is easily controlled like the stock market.
Err, AH destroys trading because it gets rid of cartels and haggling while still allowing goods and monies to flow? Wow...just...wow.
AHs make cartels easier to create and removes haggling. AH system aren't trading systems, there isn't any social contact being made. They are nothing more than a recycle bin for unwanted goods. They are just as bad as the stock market.
LOL Xipher is such a fanboi troll that he is actually arguing that liquidity is bad for market dynamics. Well, reality is biased against you.
Before the advent of "bind on equip" auction houses made crafter completely worthless because 90% of people recycled gear. What AH do to crafter now is remove all forms of player interaction, which is bad for a vibrant economy. What it also does is FIX prices, which destroys the art of trading. For instance, in FFXI the price of Carp was controlled by the fishing guild. They didn't have a monopoly on the item, but they effectively sold every single Carp they got for 4k that the price became 4k. Where was the art of haggling or trading in that, there wasn't any. This has happened in other games as well, especially with rare material. The people who get the "rares" first fix the prices to the point that, even when they become common, the price still is artificially high.
What the retainer/100s of player shops does is allow for the most common items to be sold easily, while the rare items are more difficult to attain. This manes that players will actually have the option of haggling on a more regular basis, this means that people who pay attention to the market price can turn a profit easier, etc. Trading will actually be important, and by design crafting will be doubly so. The most common crafted items will actually sell for a decent price and be worth crafting. Players who enter the game late and want to be crafters won't feel like they are grinding because their items will always be in demand for a reasonable price because trading is slightly more difficult.
TLDR: AH system destroy trading. They are nothing more than a recycle bin that is easily controlled like the stock market.
Err, AH destroys trading because it gets rid of cartels and haggling while still allowing goods and monies to flow? Wow...just...wow.
AHs make cartels easier to create and removes haggling. AH system aren't trading systems, there isn't any social contact being made. They are nothing more than a recycle bin for unwanted goods. They are just as bad as the stock market.
LOL Xipher is such a fanboi troll that he is actually arguing that liquidity is bad for market dynamics. Well, reality is biased against you.
How can you be a fanboi troll? And yes, liquidity is bad for people who actually want to be 'traders" because it makes trading too easy.
I gotta say, I agree with the OP on a majority of his points.
The game is gold. There is only 2 weeks left, which means boxes are being prepared and getting ready for shipping. In one weeks time all those boxes will be in transit.
Of course some of the content is still locked for the OB, but the core mechanics in place right now will turn away a large majority of MMO gamers.
Whatever you read about FF14 leaves most people with a sour taste. There is no denying some people will still try this out, but I just cant see this being a smooth launch. Most people who end up sticking with this title will most likely be playing it on the console when that releases 6 months from now.
I gotta say, I agree with the OP on a majority of his points.
The game is gold. There is only 2 weeks left, which means boxes are being prepared and getting ready for shipping. In one weeks time all those boxes will be in transit.
Of course some of the content is still locked for the OB, but the core mechanics in place right now will turn away a large majority of MMO gamers.
Whatever you read about FF14 leaves most people with a sour taste. There is no denying some people will still try this out, but I just cant see this being a smooth launch. Most people who end up sticking with this title will most likely be playing it on the console when that releases 6 months from now.
The only thing I dislike about the controls is the inability to by-pass the root menu to access the inventory menu. Everything else is by passable and just as easy to do with a controller or mouse + keyboard. I should correct that, technically, you can by-pass the root menu to get to your inventory by /loot and then clicking inventory, but there shouldn't be that extra step. Everything else about the controls doesn't seem much different (switching hot bars maybe) than most standard MMOs. The UI as a whole is different, but thats the nature of the beast when you make job switching entail more than equipping some armor and make job switching happen anywhere. Someone said that the game "should remember what was placed where" or have "saved set-ups for job switching" But I don't see the difference between the macro system, or having different jobs on different hot bars, and what hes asking.
I consider myself "the average MMO player". I have had my time of playing hardcore.
I had a huge 500 million credit crafting empire in SWG - Bria server. I appreciate how the crafting in FF14 is a bit more involved.
But gradually, with more IRL responsibility my play style evolved into a more casual one. I think most MMO players fall into this zone.
And if they are like me, their initial wonder will quickly wane once they realize how much time it will take to perform simple tasks. No recipe book means they will have to check outside sources constantly. I have also played L2 an insane amount (lvl 60 treasure hunter), so the retainer system make sense to me, but to others, they may think it is absurd to have a modern MMO without an AH.
I'm just saying, I think your average MMO player might try out the title, but in its current state, I doubt they will bring themselves to play it a very long time.
I'm just saying, I think your average MMO player might try out the title, but in its current state, I doubt they will bring themselves to play it a very long time.
The avg MMO player also think WAR, WoW, and Aion are completely different. Just saying.
I'm just saying, I think your average MMO player might try out the title, but in its current state, I doubt they will bring themselves to play it a very long time.
The avg MMO player also think WAR, WoW, and Aion are completely different. Just saying.
Well, I think most of your high-fantasy MMO titles are going to share similarities. These are evolved systems in place to streamline the experience. I.E. AH's, questing, PvP, skill bars, talent tree's, set classes, etc.
I get your sort of implying the average MMO gamer is pretty naive, but at the same time, I think this is true because IRL responsibility take precedence over gaming immersion.
When you remove such systems, to a certain degree people are willing to accept the difference, but if the change is shocking and drastic, perhaps to the point of frustration, quitting and returning to other MMO titles is the most probable decision they will make.
I do oh so love reviews on games that are in a testing phase of any kind. I guess it'd be one thing if this were say, the Cataclysm Beta or something. NA games tends to do "open betas" as a kind of free preview of the game and don't do much in the way of testing at all. Square Enix and the Japanese Culture in particular do not budge when it comes to how they think it should roll, and that, traditionally speaking, is to use the Open Beta as an actual testing platform to gauge server functionality.
NOW I will say that at this point, anyone hoping for some miracle UI fix is just blowing smoke up their own arse. The UI is as the UI will be for quite some time. Learn to embrace it and use it (Macros are your friend) or keep pouting but fact is, there it is and it ain't changing. I too wish the UI were friendlier and that I didn't have to go through X amount of menus just to get to the ONE that I want, or the class switching thing..ergh! For gods sake why can't the game save a profile of that class!?!?!?! ok done, I may not like it but I have learned to live with it.
Everyone is up in arms about crafting and the way to obtain goods so let me clarify things one step at a time. First; no matter what you craft, it's useful to someone. Every little thing gathered and created is going to be needed by someone to create something else, or to be used as a final product. No crafting one hundred steel bolts just to vendor them to skill up so you can craft 100 fel-steel bolts to do the same thing to craft the next kind of bolt that nobody needs. THIS IS GOOD.
Secondly; I keep hearing rumors of an AH, some say it'll be like the one in FFXI, some say it'll be like in EVE and still others say it'll be something entirely different. As far as I'm concerned this is ALL HEARSAY. The Player Markets are a fine concept and to those that fear having to run willy nilly all over X amount of instances trying to find that one item they need to make whatever it is they're making, your retainer can be sent out to shop for you, granted one kind of thing at a time. For the individual who wants a link about that, I'm afraid I can't give it to you, the NPC who teaches you about retainers in game is the only clear source I have, sorry. I also haven't done it yet in OB, maybe I'll try tonight.
Obviously content is lacking in this kind of test, in fact the beta manual itself states that only a fraction of what will be in the retail version is being put through to the test. Timers on leves seems to get a lot of people all riled up currently the timers are pretty long but if they stayed that way I would personally feel okay with that. Leves CAN be done by yourself, but in my opinion, should be done with a group. If you all have the same leave, that means you can all go through said leave for each person, thus gaining the enhanced EXP and skill rewards. Or you can burn through it solo and finish it in five minutes and wander around wondering where the ! is to tell you where your next quest shoud be. (by the way, the next ! is in WoW, check it out)
FFXI and FFXIV mirror each other in a lot of ways. If you didn't like the way the UI worked in XI you won't like it in XIV, if you didn't like the way you had to grind up in XI, you won't like it in XIV. These are things any informed gamer should be aware of as they go into this kind of thing. I find it hard to believe that this amount of people were so ignorant as to expect some totally different mind blowing genre busting concept.
It's quite simply an upgrade on what has worked for them. They didn't do it the way the NA game developers do it, they did it the way their country likes to play. I do have some GOOD NEWS for those of you who find this wholly unacceptable and find it hard to believe that all games aren't designed with their very own private needs and wants in mind.
You don't have to play it. Fact is this game will be a niche game, just as EVE and FFXI before it. It isn't trying to steal any thunder from WoW or SW:ToR because they aren't making that kind of game. It's not meant to be a WoW killer or any kind of killer, it simply is the product that it is and you complaining about it, or "reviewing it" isn't going to change that. Frankly this entire "review" seems to come from someone who walked into the beta without checking out the first thing about how this game was going to play out (Granted not that getting detailed info about this game is terribly easy..).
Again, don't huff and puff because the game isn't what you wanted it or expected it to be. It never hid behind a curtain and said it would be one thing and then jumped out at you and revealed itself to be wholly different. They said they wanted to make it friendlier for casuals (This is in comparison to ffXI btw) and they have, they gave you some solo guild leves and mobs that won't wipe the floor with you one on one. This is considerably more solo friendly when compared to XI where a stray bunny rabit at any time in any place could likely floor you with 3 kicks.
NOW does that mean that Craig C. Casual will enjoy this game? I duno, probably not based off of that, but who knows. If they like this kind of game maybe that's just casual enough for 'em. If not there's dozens, no, hundreds of other MMO's out there with different offerings to slake your thirst for online gaming. I don't want to insult ANY game, I've played a TON of them, including WoW and have found that over the years, I enjoy myself a LOT more if I simply take the product for what it is, ignore hype (because seriously..), remember that they didn't make this game with me in mind and to play it for what it is.
At that point I either like it and play it, or dislike it and don't. I don't go running to the forums to whine about how the nasty development company didn't make the game I wanted them to make. Nor do I make up ridiculous claims and numbers about how obviously 25% of gamers are going to dislike this or half of the casuals will do tihs, blah blah. You are one person, speak for yourself and don't be so arrogant as to think you have any right or knowledge enough to speak for anyone else at any time ever.
(As an aside, I do tend to enjoy threads that fill with giggles and drama, I'm a forum troll spectator so...you do have a special place in my heart. Without the trolls and the fanboys and the whiners and the spaz's I'd have far less entertainment in my forum going. Yes I understand that makes me a bad person, I also don't care.)
SO, my point is. Diet Dr. Pepper tastes like regular Dr. Pepper but with like, half the calories.
I'm just saying, I think your average MMO player might try out the title, but in its current state, I doubt they will bring themselves to play it a very long time.
The avg MMO player also think WAR, WoW, and Aion are completely different. Just saying.
I love how MMO's have turned into a sort of gaming race war.
^ ^ post above is basically a racist comment.
Look down your nose all you want, but the AVERAGE mmo player is also the LARGEST GROUP OF MMO PLAYERS...aka the target audience for every game other than super niche games.
If SE is making FFXIV to be a niche game then more power to them, but I highly doubt it.
Also, just as a side note, every single one of your posts is overflowing with a need to be better than the people you are responding to. That is no way to argue a point. Condescension (sp?) gets you no where in this world. Try coming at things from an angle that promotes intelligent response, not just "I'm a smarter/better gamer with the perfect most refined tastes and all the knowlege in the world so I'm better than you!"
PPS. I notice you dodged the one fellow's response to your statement that he should read his facts before posting...you know the one where he told you he had in fact done just that and was unable to verify ANY of what you were saying? Please respond to that so as to tie up that loose end in this conversation.
The sleeper awakes...and rides his dirtbike to the mall.
all I have to say is it'll feel like Lineage 2 did when you could setup shops with items you wanted to sell... yes it took time to go through but the interactions and finding those able to craft said items made it all worth it - even if you had a guild or alliance that you had massive wars against - if the price was right you could get anything.
------------------------------ We don't have a great war in our generation, or a great depression, but we do, we have a great war of the spirit. We have a great revolution against the culture. The great depression is our lives. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
Someone mentioned making a lot of money on SWG as a crafter. I think that's something that should be pointed out. On pre-NGE SWG, good crafters were more famous than great non-exploiting PvPers. People would go to the cities of the crafters to buy their goods. Why? Because the SWG bazaar system limited the amount of credits that could be spent through it, so if you wanted a more expensive item (which with the inflation, most of your stuff ended up in that area), you had to go to the player city. I think you could eventually look up certain merchants items on the bazaar, but still had to go to their shop to buy it. I miss that system.
Not having an AH system is going to make good efficient crafters famous on servers again. If I need a new sword and someone has a rep on the server of being an awesome smith, I'm going to know where I can find his retainers so I can buy his stuff. If I find someone who is going to buy my loot at high prices, I'm going to finding his normal sitdown location and I'm going to sell him my stuff.
I remember on SWG, I would sit on materials until someone asked a good price for them... and then I'd dump them. When Dathomir carnivore meat had 850+ in all categories, I made a killing 2 months later. Granted, Final Fantasy won't have that sort of material system... but the point still stands:
you had to research who would pay you the best for your materials and you had to research who would sell you the best stuff at the best rate. Once you learn who those people are, you'll go find them again and again. People will build connections and people who have reputations...
The more and more I think about it... the more and more I like this.
Before I write this let me just say that I am by no means a published game reviewer. I am an experienced mmo player with several titles under my belt. So you can take my review for whatever its worth be it gold or a grain of salt.
I began playing FF14 on the day the issued open beta keys and today I have deleted the game.
Leveling:
I tried out several different ways to level my GLD rank. I did the regional lvl quests and then waited for them to become availble again. I travelled to the 2 other main towns and used my teleport to get those quests, only to find out that my anima soon ran out and did not replish quickly enough to keep this option possible. Combine these two with the fact that regional lvl quests dont refresh for some time 30+hours and I was forced to do painfull grinding. There is a difference between grinding that is ok and grinding that is mind numbing on the level of drinking straight everclear...FF14 is the later. The fact that regional quests are on a ridiclously long timer adds to the frustration. You are almost punished for being in a party when u go out grinding as you get less hits in on an NPC and thus less chance to gain skill. This is an MMO you are suppose to form teams to accomplish in game results.
Grade: F
Crafting:
I rather enjoy the crafting system in the game. Not only can you take up numerous professions but whlie crafting you can determine the qulity of your items. One of the things I disliked about WoW was its vanila crafting. Here you can make a high or low quality item based solo on you skill during the crafting process. The one thing I disliked about the crating processs is you have no recipe book on you displaying the recipes that you learn along with their required mateials. I enjoyed the Local Level quests which introduced you to the crafting system and helped level your skill. I think there needs to be a better tutorial for each profession and a personal recipe book but thats about it.
Grade: B+
PVE content:
Here is where we are going to get into a very subjective matter for me. I live for pve content esspecially party based quests/missions like the dungeon based instances in WoW. After grinding to lvl 10 I would have hoped there would have been at the very least lvl 10 group quests that were part of the story line quest you had to do at the begining. But there was none and no instances either. It was more of the same FAIL leveling. To make maters worse the pve regional quests where the same every time they became availble. There is no intro help what so ever in this game. From the outset you have no real idea where to go so you are left with just going around, talking to NPCs, and eventually bumping into what you need to do.
Grade: F
PVP contnet:
There is none...fine by me I am PVEer anyway.
Grade: not applicable
Economy:
Normally I wouldn't even comment here because it is in beta phase and the economy isn't even deveolped but I will because their system is a FAIL system. Instead of an AH or some other centralized market place you have a half ass instance where you place a retainer, the retainer the sells your items you wish to sell. If you wish to buy something you have to go to one of the instances with retainers (there are several) and check each and every retainer looking for what you want to buy like a needle in a hay stack. There is no way you can price your items if you wish to sell because you cant check the market cause there is none and if you want to buy there is no way you can check every retainer and thus even if you manage to find what you want whos to say you bought the item that was priced the lowest.
Grade: F
Interface:
Complete and uter fail. Your mouse moves slow. Tab targeting is less efficent then pointing with you mouse. Vendors are so slow. To equip, craft, or view an item you have to jump through so many windows and they take a long time to load. If you want to trade with someone count on a simple transaction taking about 5 min. In order to private message someon you must type out their entire name, first and last (last name lol fail), everytime...it takes forever. One thing that is very annoying is there is no clear way to invite someone to party unless they are standing right in front of you.
Grade: F
Sumation:
The game is bad plain and simple. To all of you (very few I think) who love this game and rip on people like me by saying "You just want a simple game with shallow character development" I have this to say. In several interviews the Developers of this title say they wanted to make this game playable for the more casual gamer. They have failed completly at this thus the game is a failure of a product. The amount of effort that is required here is beyond a casual gamer. Combine that with a lack of overall fun while playing, long travel times, bad, UI, and poor grinding and the game is a fail product. I forget how many years it was in development 5, 6 or more. But after all that time and millions of dollars spent the lead developers should not have a job in a few months.
Looking forward to SWTOR....laters!
Hate to tell you this, but the game is in BETA right now, you can't give a proper review of something thats not complete, do you say you don't like a cake that has not yet been in the oven? No you will wait for the finished item as there is no way of knowing beforehand. So sadly you will have to revisit everything you have written (I agree that certain aspects like UI/controls and the gereral feel you can get an idea of, but nothing else at this stage)
Simple - you don't review a BETA!
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I foresee spending 6 hours wandering through these '50' instances of retainers (8 or 10 I believe in reality) just trying to find one item and being unable to find it. Much rather spam /sh (shout) sadly...
I have played Ultima Online for 3 years, it had no AH system at all.
Shops were all over the world created by players in their or their friends houses. You could place vendors in a house and make them sell your items. (Much like a retainer)
When you start to know the good shops it isn't so difficult anymore, also you will hear people around you talking about good or bad shops. So if you don't like shopping then you have to rely on people around you.
To me shopping in UO felt like a sport, it always got me excited, especially if I found a store with very unique, hard to find items.
I told my friends about the good shops, not all of them liked this 'sport' so they were glad I put so much time in it.
Merchants will slowly learn how they can make their shop a shop people want to return to. They will learn to listen to what the people are looking for, and if they are smart they will work together with some neighbour merchants, to make an area with a lot of different stuff available.
But it does ask something from the community, but in an MMORPG you wouldn't expect any less I would think?
Hate to tell you this, but the game is in BETA right now, you can't give a proper review of something thats not complete, do you say you don't like a cake that has not yet been in the oven? No you will wait for the finished item as there is no way of knowing beforehand. So sadly you will have to revisit everything you have written (I agree that certain aspects like UI/controls and the gereral feel you can get an idea of, but nothing else at this stage)
Simple - you don't review a BETA!
I really wish people would quit posting this nonsense. Yes, it is a beta. But it is an open beta for a game that is going live in less than a month. The core game systems are you to the point where you can get a fairly accurate feel of the game (as long as you keep in mind that they have some of the content deactivated at the moment).
In terms of graphics, sound (minus some voiceovers), general gameplay, crafting, animations, and many other areas, what you're seeing now in open beta IS what you're going to see at launch. Other things, such as UI quirks, leve and economy balancing, and game performance are all likely to see some minor revisions.
Once upon a time the above would have been false. But that was back when beta testing actually did testing. In the current era, they're glorified PR preivews that double as stress testing.
My opinion on the matter, this is open beta. Once communities are established on their respective servers, the bazaar system will be just fine. We'll know what zone to find specific items. I.E. zone 1, armor. Zone 2, weapons. And so on and so forth. Sure you'll still have to go find the item by browsing the bazaar stands, but it'll be organized. Not to mention you'll eventually know what crafter's cater to your specific adventuring needs, and will be able to request goods made by socializing with that crafter. This economy is going to be completely player based. If the lack of gear from shops doesn't define that for you already, then i really don't know what else to say.
Even though there are people playing on these OB servers, doesn't mean there is a community. Nothing has been established, and there aren't any real official forums that these players can navigate to, to determine where the proper selling area's for the items they are looking for are located.
All in all, time will tell. I could be completely wrong, and it will completely suck. But lets put some faith in our community to work with the system thats in place, and not just bitch and moan and altogether shoot it in the foot. I think its a great system, im tired of an AH system.
I'm just saying, I think your average MMO player might try out the title, but in its current state, I doubt they will bring themselves to play it a very long time.
The avg MMO player also think WAR, WoW, and Aion are completely different. Just saying.
I love how MMO's have turned into a sort of gaming race war.
^ ^ post above is basically a racist comment.
Look down your nose all you want, but the AVERAGE mmo player is also the LARGEST GROUP OF MMO PLAYERS...aka the target audience for every game other than super niche games.
The AVG mmo player/game is just what I want to avoid.
The AVG mmo is complete and utter garbage and has been for a long, long time. Basically, since the first EQ clone. FFXIV isn't much different, but the central story is enough for me to enjoy the game until I beat it, just like every other MMO that I've played until cap/story content ran out.
The AVG mmo player doesn't think he/she is grinding when doing the same quest/raid 5k. If you have fun doing that more power to you, but catering to that is exactly why most MMO vets are getting tired of MMOs in general and go berserk when anything out side the norm may be released.
If SE is making FFXIV to be a niche game then more power to them, but I highly doubt it.
SE has their market in Japan, the rest of the world is simply extra for them in terms of recuping cost
Also, just as a side note, every single one of your posts is overflowing with a need to be better than the people you are responding to. That is no way to argue a point. Condescension (sp?) gets you no where in this world. Try coming at things from an angle that promotes intelligent response, not just "I'm a smarter/better gamer with the perfect most refined tastes and all the knowlege in the world so I'm better than you!"
If you feel that way maybe I was hitting close to home :P
PPS. I notice you dodged the one fellow's response to your statement that he should read his facts before posting...you know the one where he told you he had in fact done just that and was unable to verify ANY of what you were saying? Please respond to that so as to tie up that loose end in this conversation.
The information about retainers finding stuff for you is inside the game when you talk to the retainer person and ask him/her what do retainers do. The information about how leves are suppose to work for launch is on the beta site which to access you need to have a user name and PW which is why I didn't link it. Both questions were answered by other people in this thread.
Wow I didn't realize the "reviewer" was looking forward to SWTOR. Hes what I'm talking about when it comes to your avg MMO/player. SWTOR is nothing more than the same crap in a different package aka A WoW clone with a SW skin.
The game does not use active combat, it gives the illusion of using active combat. All the blocks and weapon clashing happens based on character stats and dice rolls. The game uses global cool downs for skills and is designed to make you feel "epic" on day one. The only cool thing about SWTOR are the story missions, everything else is done exactly like WoW.
You know the edit feature allows you to change the title of your thread..
-just saying, omg, don't flame me, I have an opinion too, omg, i hate this game, honestly i think its good, seriously what were they thinking, open beta = actual game ALWAYS, just saying, honestly, omg.
Comments
No, I am saying what makes crafting worthwhile in a given MMO isn't the system for selling goods, but rather the fact that they make items that are worth getting. The person I was responding to acted like it was the selling system that made crafting great, when that isn't the case at all.
Id assume there is more content the n in OB just because it would be absurd to release the game otherwise.However, I havent seen them make this statement anywhere so I see no real proof that there will be a ton of content at launch time.I hope we are right and the game will have real content cause its a shell atm.
Ahh, I misread you. Sorry about that. All that said, I've never personally seen a cartel actually work in an AH game. Seems it would be easier in a bazaar system when you can control all the most easily accessible bazaar spots and it is cheaper to buyout the people near those spots (harder to find people you don't even have to deal with). I don't see what so magical about bazaars here. I've played some bazaar games and I've more often found them to be where someone buys up and controls a resource.
Again, I ask you to link to me this information about retainers, because I only found information about them holding things for you and setting them up as storefronts. Nothing about haggling with them or sending them out to find things for you.
As for trading, I certainly like using an AH and getting goods easily. I do not like spending a lot of time doing that. I like trading and economies in MMOs generally speaking, but I do NOT like haggling. There's a big difference.
Ultimately it ends up like this. People will buy the game if they like it and people won't buy the game if they don't. Trying to rationlize this will just leave you frustrated and confused =P.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
my mistake then, but i do think that the way items are sold does add to the crafting element. i.e in shadowbane, our town rolled very good rings somehow. no idea why, but thats just how it played out. the fact that people would travel to our town just to buy the stuff we sold, even if it was over priced for people not in our nation, made it that much more fun.
its kinda boring when you can just look at an AH for new items. i would be more excited personally if an ls mate saw some really great weapon on a retainer or in a bazaar that hes never seen in game before. that would make me go there just to see it, maybe even try to buy it. To me crafting is the act of making, selling, and buying goods.
LOL Xipher is such a fanboi troll that he is actually arguing that liquidity is bad for market dynamics. Well, reality is biased against you.
How can you be a fanboi troll? And yes, liquidity is bad for people who actually want to be 'traders" because it makes trading too easy.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
I gotta say, I agree with the OP on a majority of his points.
The game is gold. There is only 2 weeks left, which means boxes are being prepared and getting ready for shipping. In one weeks time all those boxes will be in transit.
Of course some of the content is still locked for the OB, but the core mechanics in place right now will turn away a large majority of MMO gamers.
Whatever you read about FF14 leaves most people with a sour taste. There is no denying some people will still try this out, but I just cant see this being a smooth launch. Most people who end up sticking with this title will most likely be playing it on the console when that releases 6 months from now.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The only thing I dislike about the controls is the inability to by-pass the root menu to access the inventory menu. Everything else is by passable and just as easy to do with a controller or mouse + keyboard. I should correct that, technically, you can by-pass the root menu to get to your inventory by /loot and then clicking inventory, but there shouldn't be that extra step. Everything else about the controls doesn't seem much different (switching hot bars maybe) than most standard MMOs. The UI as a whole is different, but thats the nature of the beast when you make job switching entail more than equipping some armor and make job switching happen anywhere. Someone said that the game "should remember what was placed where" or have "saved set-ups for job switching" But I don't see the difference between the macro system, or having different jobs on different hot bars, and what hes asking.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
An additional note:
I consider myself "the average MMO player". I have had my time of playing hardcore.
I had a huge 500 million credit crafting empire in SWG - Bria server. I appreciate how the crafting in FF14 is a bit more involved.
But gradually, with more IRL responsibility my play style evolved into a more casual one. I think most MMO players fall into this zone.
And if they are like me, their initial wonder will quickly wane once they realize how much time it will take to perform simple tasks. No recipe book means they will have to check outside sources constantly. I have also played L2 an insane amount (lvl 60 treasure hunter), so the retainer system make sense to me, but to others, they may think it is absurd to have a modern MMO without an AH.
I'm just saying, I think your average MMO player might try out the title, but in its current state, I doubt they will bring themselves to play it a very long time.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
The avg MMO player also think WAR, WoW, and Aion are completely different. Just saying.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
Well, I think most of your high-fantasy MMO titles are going to share similarities. These are evolved systems in place to streamline the experience. I.E. AH's, questing, PvP, skill bars, talent tree's, set classes, etc.
I get your sort of implying the average MMO gamer is pretty naive, but at the same time, I think this is true because IRL responsibility take precedence over gaming immersion.
When you remove such systems, to a certain degree people are willing to accept the difference, but if the change is shocking and drastic, perhaps to the point of frustration, quitting and returning to other MMO titles is the most probable decision they will make.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
I do oh so love reviews on games that are in a testing phase of any kind. I guess it'd be one thing if this were say, the Cataclysm Beta or something. NA games tends to do "open betas" as a kind of free preview of the game and don't do much in the way of testing at all. Square Enix and the Japanese Culture in particular do not budge when it comes to how they think it should roll, and that, traditionally speaking, is to use the Open Beta as an actual testing platform to gauge server functionality.
NOW I will say that at this point, anyone hoping for some miracle UI fix is just blowing smoke up their own arse. The UI is as the UI will be for quite some time. Learn to embrace it and use it (Macros are your friend) or keep pouting but fact is, there it is and it ain't changing. I too wish the UI were friendlier and that I didn't have to go through X amount of menus just to get to the ONE that I want, or the class switching thing..ergh! For gods sake why can't the game save a profile of that class!?!?!?! ok done, I may not like it but I have learned to live with it.
Everyone is up in arms about crafting and the way to obtain goods so let me clarify things one step at a time. First; no matter what you craft, it's useful to someone. Every little thing gathered and created is going to be needed by someone to create something else, or to be used as a final product. No crafting one hundred steel bolts just to vendor them to skill up so you can craft 100 fel-steel bolts to do the same thing to craft the next kind of bolt that nobody needs. THIS IS GOOD.
Secondly; I keep hearing rumors of an AH, some say it'll be like the one in FFXI, some say it'll be like in EVE and still others say it'll be something entirely different. As far as I'm concerned this is ALL HEARSAY. The Player Markets are a fine concept and to those that fear having to run willy nilly all over X amount of instances trying to find that one item they need to make whatever it is they're making, your retainer can be sent out to shop for you, granted one kind of thing at a time. For the individual who wants a link about that, I'm afraid I can't give it to you, the NPC who teaches you about retainers in game is the only clear source I have, sorry. I also haven't done it yet in OB, maybe I'll try tonight.
Obviously content is lacking in this kind of test, in fact the beta manual itself states that only a fraction of what will be in the retail version is being put through to the test. Timers on leves seems to get a lot of people all riled up currently the timers are pretty long but if they stayed that way I would personally feel okay with that. Leves CAN be done by yourself, but in my opinion, should be done with a group. If you all have the same leave, that means you can all go through said leave for each person, thus gaining the enhanced EXP and skill rewards. Or you can burn through it solo and finish it in five minutes and wander around wondering where the ! is to tell you where your next quest shoud be. (by the way, the next ! is in WoW, check it out)
FFXI and FFXIV mirror each other in a lot of ways. If you didn't like the way the UI worked in XI you won't like it in XIV, if you didn't like the way you had to grind up in XI, you won't like it in XIV. These are things any informed gamer should be aware of as they go into this kind of thing. I find it hard to believe that this amount of people were so ignorant as to expect some totally different mind blowing genre busting concept.
It's quite simply an upgrade on what has worked for them. They didn't do it the way the NA game developers do it, they did it the way their country likes to play. I do have some GOOD NEWS for those of you who find this wholly unacceptable and find it hard to believe that all games aren't designed with their very own private needs and wants in mind.
You don't have to play it. Fact is this game will be a niche game, just as EVE and FFXI before it. It isn't trying to steal any thunder from WoW or SW:ToR because they aren't making that kind of game. It's not meant to be a WoW killer or any kind of killer, it simply is the product that it is and you complaining about it, or "reviewing it" isn't going to change that. Frankly this entire "review" seems to come from someone who walked into the beta without checking out the first thing about how this game was going to play out (Granted not that getting detailed info about this game is terribly easy..).
Again, don't huff and puff because the game isn't what you wanted it or expected it to be. It never hid behind a curtain and said it would be one thing and then jumped out at you and revealed itself to be wholly different. They said they wanted to make it friendlier for casuals (This is in comparison to ffXI btw) and they have, they gave you some solo guild leves and mobs that won't wipe the floor with you one on one. This is considerably more solo friendly when compared to XI where a stray bunny rabit at any time in any place could likely floor you with 3 kicks.
NOW does that mean that Craig C. Casual will enjoy this game? I duno, probably not based off of that, but who knows. If they like this kind of game maybe that's just casual enough for 'em. If not there's dozens, no, hundreds of other MMO's out there with different offerings to slake your thirst for online gaming. I don't want to insult ANY game, I've played a TON of them, including WoW and have found that over the years, I enjoy myself a LOT more if I simply take the product for what it is, ignore hype (because seriously..), remember that they didn't make this game with me in mind and to play it for what it is.
At that point I either like it and play it, or dislike it and don't. I don't go running to the forums to whine about how the nasty development company didn't make the game I wanted them to make. Nor do I make up ridiculous claims and numbers about how obviously 25% of gamers are going to dislike this or half of the casuals will do tihs, blah blah. You are one person, speak for yourself and don't be so arrogant as to think you have any right or knowledge enough to speak for anyone else at any time ever.
(As an aside, I do tend to enjoy threads that fill with giggles and drama, I'm a forum troll spectator so...you do have a special place in my heart. Without the trolls and the fanboys and the whiners and the spaz's I'd have far less entertainment in my forum going. Yes I understand that makes me a bad person, I also don't care.)
SO, my point is. Diet Dr. Pepper tastes like regular Dr. Pepper but with like, half the calories.
Well, Diet Dr. Pepper uses Splenda, an artificial sugar for flavor, so its actually zero calories!
So, you can drink a diet cola guilt free!
Except for that leering possibility of getting cancer from unnatural, inorganic, and demonic nature of Splenda >_<
It may literally take your first born, so you might as well stick with Dr. Pepper
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
But...I've grown used to the Diet stuff...
Still...I AM fond of my first born..
So much to think about.
I love how MMO's have turned into a sort of gaming race war.
^ ^ post above is basically a racist comment.
Look down your nose all you want, but the AVERAGE mmo player is also the LARGEST GROUP OF MMO PLAYERS...aka the target audience for every game other than super niche games.
If SE is making FFXIV to be a niche game then more power to them, but I highly doubt it.
Also, just as a side note, every single one of your posts is overflowing with a need to be better than the people you are responding to. That is no way to argue a point. Condescension (sp?) gets you no where in this world. Try coming at things from an angle that promotes intelligent response, not just "I'm a smarter/better gamer with the perfect most refined tastes and all the knowlege in the world so I'm better than you!"
PPS. I notice you dodged the one fellow's response to your statement that he should read his facts before posting...you know the one where he told you he had in fact done just that and was unable to verify ANY of what you were saying? Please respond to that so as to tie up that loose end in this conversation.
The sleeper awakes...and rides his dirtbike to the mall.
all I have to say is it'll feel like Lineage 2 did when you could setup shops with items you wanted to sell... yes it took time to go through but the interactions and finding those able to craft said items made it all worth it - even if you had a guild or alliance that you had massive wars against - if the price was right you could get anything.
------------------------------
We don't have a great war in our generation, or a great depression, but we do, we have a great war of the spirit. We have a great revolution against the culture. The great depression is our lives.
~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club
Someone mentioned making a lot of money on SWG as a crafter. I think that's something that should be pointed out. On pre-NGE SWG, good crafters were more famous than great non-exploiting PvPers. People would go to the cities of the crafters to buy their goods. Why? Because the SWG bazaar system limited the amount of credits that could be spent through it, so if you wanted a more expensive item (which with the inflation, most of your stuff ended up in that area), you had to go to the player city. I think you could eventually look up certain merchants items on the bazaar, but still had to go to their shop to buy it. I miss that system.
Not having an AH system is going to make good efficient crafters famous on servers again. If I need a new sword and someone has a rep on the server of being an awesome smith, I'm going to know where I can find his retainers so I can buy his stuff. If I find someone who is going to buy my loot at high prices, I'm going to finding his normal sitdown location and I'm going to sell him my stuff.
I remember on SWG, I would sit on materials until someone asked a good price for them... and then I'd dump them. When Dathomir carnivore meat had 850+ in all categories, I made a killing 2 months later. Granted, Final Fantasy won't have that sort of material system... but the point still stands:
you had to research who would pay you the best for your materials and you had to research who would sell you the best stuff at the best rate. Once you learn who those people are, you'll go find them again and again. People will build connections and people who have reputations...
The more and more I think about it... the more and more I like this.
Hate to tell you this, but the game is in BETA right now, you can't give a proper review of something thats not complete, do you say you don't like a cake that has not yet been in the oven? No you will wait for the finished item as there is no way of knowing beforehand. So sadly you will have to revisit everything you have written (I agree that certain aspects like UI/controls and the gereral feel you can get an idea of, but nothing else at this stage)
Simple - you don't review a BETA!
Core i5 13600KF, BeQuiet Pure Loop FX 360, 32gb DDR5-6000 XPG, WD SN850 NVMe ,PNY 3090 XLR8, Asus Prime Z790-A, Lian-Li O11 PCMR case (limited ed 1045/2000), 32" LG Ultragear 4k Monitor, Logitech G560 LightSync Sound, Razer Deathadder V2 and Razer Blackwidow V3 Keyboard
I have played Ultima Online for 3 years, it had no AH system at all.
Shops were all over the world created by players in their or their friends houses. You could place vendors in a house and make them sell your items. (Much like a retainer)
When you start to know the good shops it isn't so difficult anymore, also you will hear people around you talking about good or bad shops. So if you don't like shopping then you have to rely on people around you.
To me shopping in UO felt like a sport, it always got me excited, especially if I found a store with very unique, hard to find items.
I told my friends about the good shops, not all of them liked this 'sport' so they were glad I put so much time in it.
Merchants will slowly learn how they can make their shop a shop people want to return to. They will learn to listen to what the people are looking for, and if they are smart they will work together with some neighbour merchants, to make an area with a lot of different stuff available.
But it does ask something from the community, but in an MMORPG you wouldn't expect any less I would think?
I really wish people would quit posting this nonsense. Yes, it is a beta. But it is an open beta for a game that is going live in less than a month. The core game systems are you to the point where you can get a fairly accurate feel of the game (as long as you keep in mind that they have some of the content deactivated at the moment).
In terms of graphics, sound (minus some voiceovers), general gameplay, crafting, animations, and many other areas, what you're seeing now in open beta IS what you're going to see at launch. Other things, such as UI quirks, leve and economy balancing, and game performance are all likely to see some minor revisions.
Once upon a time the above would have been false. But that was back when beta testing actually did testing. In the current era, they're glorified PR preivews that double as stress testing.
Haha worst review ever. Enjoy SWTOR though.
My opinion on the matter, this is open beta. Once communities are established on their respective servers, the bazaar system will be just fine. We'll know what zone to find specific items. I.E. zone 1, armor. Zone 2, weapons. And so on and so forth. Sure you'll still have to go find the item by browsing the bazaar stands, but it'll be organized. Not to mention you'll eventually know what crafter's cater to your specific adventuring needs, and will be able to request goods made by socializing with that crafter. This economy is going to be completely player based. If the lack of gear from shops doesn't define that for you already, then i really don't know what else to say.
Even though there are people playing on these OB servers, doesn't mean there is a community. Nothing has been established, and there aren't any real official forums that these players can navigate to, to determine where the proper selling area's for the items they are looking for are located.
All in all, time will tell. I could be completely wrong, and it will completely suck. But lets put some faith in our community to work with the system thats in place, and not just bitch and moan and altogether shoot it in the foot. I think its a great system, im tired of an AH system.
Games:
Currently playing:Nothing
Will play: Darkfall: Unholy Wars
Past games:
Guild Wars 2 - Xpiher Duminous
Xpiher's GW2
GW 1 - Xpiher Duminous
Darkfall - Xpiher Duminous (NA) retired
AoC - Xpiher (Tyranny) retired
Warhammer - Xpiher
You know the edit feature allows you to change the title of your thread..
-just saying, omg, don't flame me, I have an opinion too, omg, i hate this game, honestly i think its good, seriously what were they thinking, open beta = actual game ALWAYS, just saying, honestly, omg.
Taru-Gallante-Blood elf-Elysean-Kelari-Crime Fighting-Imperial Agent