If the leveling curve was reduced to fit the fatigue system, then this is actually quite good, especially as it directs you into horizontal growth, something most wouldn't even touch before they reach the maximum vertical growth (aka people rushing to the final level in other MMOs before working on their gear, reputation, PvP or anything else).
Actually, before they implemented the fatigue system the leveling curve was actually increased, because you could no longer gain normal EXP for killing creatures much lower level than you. While this was an obvious bug, it did increase the overall leveling curve.
Right now I feel the leveling curve is already extremely hardcore. Without the fatigue system I'd still imagine it would take even the most hardcore, fastest powerlevelers (as a member of that crowd - I have a few server first max level characters across a few MMOs) 1 month or 360 hours to reach max level on physical, probably another 1 and a half to 2 weeks or 100 hours to reach it on your main class. With fatigue that's going to at least double the time it takes for them to hit cap. Capping all classes is going to take at least a year, even for the most hardcore.
In comparison to Western MMOs it takes about 2 weeks average for the most hardcore to reach max and games with the easiest leveling curve can be done in a single long week. It's pretty much a standard leveling curve for Eastern MMOs, but it's certainly not casual. I'd imagine it would still take a casual player at least a year to max a SINGLE skill level.
Note: I'm just speculating here because Beta 3 was capped at 30 and the actual cap would be 50 (I have no desire to try to reach this in open beta).
So far I could care less about the Fatigue system. I never play just one toon. Yet I can understand not being able to go crazy and lvl.. But its the quest system that kills the game for me. You dont even have to worry about loot. It does it for you.. I cant even wonder what kind of beta testers cried about that. This quest thing is for me awful. Most mmo's now as of late at lest try to hide, make more fun the questing. Not here. This mmo is your basic PAY to take a quest and kill so many 'X's". I dont know one person that loves the questing. Is there a story line?
Well for ME and I am not the best player here. But its hard to understand sometimes ..I do know is still beta but who is reading this? How many times do they have to read "shuold" yea.. its not should and then you read it its like they just used google translator to do it. Not alot but so close to release. And after all these years the NPC's are dead. No life. So its the same go up to .. talk , take what ever..go to someone else or something else take timequest.. kill so many and repeat. I'm one of those that love to just kill to see the loot sometimes. But now even thats no fun. I dont get to loot. The system does it for me. If you like this MMO great have fun. There will always be some that love it, think its the best ever! Like Warhammer, Startrek, COL blah blah.. for THEM it is. In this MMO they found a way to make you play longer .. oops to PAY longer.
This discussion is still going on *shocked* I mean, seriously the system is crap and everyone with half a brain realizes that. Doesn't matter how you stretch it it does punish you for playing the game which is an incredible stupid thing to do so.
Didn't even bother joining the OB this game should have been a new oldschool heaven but somehow they managed to destroy it.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
This discussion is still going on *shocked* I mean, seriously the system is crap and everyone with half a brain realizes that. Doesn't matter how you stretch it it does punish you for playing the game which is an incredible stupid thing to do so. Didn't even bother joining the OB this game should have been a new oldschool heaven but somehow they managed to destroy it.
Well Mr. Fullbrain, why even bother lowering yourself to the level of Halfbrainers. As a halfbrainer, I'm utterly pleased that you graced us with your preseence.
I want to take the time to apologize for liking this system. I also want to apologize for enjoying the beta. If only I had an extra half of a brain, maybe then I could hate the game and troll these forums.
This was very informative. There were a couple items mentioned in there i didn't even know i could do, probably because it was never mentioned in game!
Thanks!
"Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better." parrotpholk
After that explanation I'm even more intrigued by the system. It keeps the populations around the same level out the gate. But to be honest it only benefits first comers to the PC version and then again the PS3 version if that was what it's truely intended to do. It would have been cool if they released both versions at the same time, but since they are now staggered, it will be that much harder for PS3 players to catch up to their PC brethren. But this was a system put in place because the amount of exp needed to max level overall is lower than some rediculous asian grinder like Lineage.
And with that being said, may times players out-level content before developers intended them to. So blinded by the rush to hit the cap, players tend to skip a lot of worthwhile things. So if you're not thinking about leveling, maybe you'll think about taking up a crafting disciple or socialize a bit more than what's normally happening in mmos these days. Dunno, I still think it's worth giving a shot.
But since the game doesnt even have competitions (PvP) why should you care how fast others can level?
I think I finally understand what they are trying to do here. They really want people to explore multiple jobs, and don't want it to seem like an endless task.
In FFXI, everyone played multiple classes anyways. But it took a VERY long time to level many different classes in FFXI because the leveling curve was very steep.
In FFXIV, they've lowered the leveling curve. It doesn't take nearly as long to level a rank as it did in FFXI. With this, though, they had to put restrictions in place to keep people from leveling one job to 50 in a week, and then not having anything to do. With the Fatigue system, they can have a smaller leveling curve without worrying about the hardcore running out of content. This also gives the hardcore and casuals the chance to level other jobs, and actually make progress.
I for one am loving the idea of this system. Hardcore players will always be ahead of casuals. It's just how MMOs work. However, this promotes a more horizontal progression for all players.
FFXI was always a horizontal game as well, and I think that's what I liked about it. Even the end game was horizontal, which brought much more variety to end game events.
I suppose my main issues/concerns aren't many but:
1. Multiclassing means I have to sit killing rats and puks 2 to 3 times as long as I'd like to. It really isn't that fun the first time.
2. Those with more time will have more character skills and be more valuable. Instead of groups looking for Gladiator, I'd guess they will look for Max Melee x3 characters.
3. Inventory Space. I logged, mined, and did combat, my bags were always full. No need to beat a dead horse, but UI+lag+full bags=a very very very long time sorting and managing inventory.
---
I think I mentioned in another thread the video is decent, but too much spin. Saying" you can't do what you want to", but" here is what you can do" isn't freedom.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
I dont know i just dont buy it. this video did one thing only to me.
Prove once again that causals and hardcore will still play seperately.
soooooooooooooo you can grow horizontally (that has to be some type of innuendo)
here is why its going to be bad.
elitism. and thats why.
so the casual gets his gladiator to lets say lvl 20.
the hardcore due to thresholds is forced to grow ... ok you know the drill. thus obtaining much more skills wich will improve survivability, dmg ect.
so both gladiators are lvl 20.
who in flying hell you think is going to get chosen over the other. its gonna happen and you all know it. the causals will band together, lvling up one class, or slowly getting the skills needed. the hardcore will go on their own, they will prefer that highly advanced lvl 20 gladiator to tank much more than the lvl 20 gladiator with basic skills.
but lets say well the basics skills can still make a good gladiator work properly without the other skills.
then dps comes in and its worse. so i decided to be a pulgist. im casual and want to be dps.
why should i be chosen over the other same lvled pulgist with mulit classed skills.
you know to be frank this is crap.
HORIZONS NOW KNOWN AS ISTARIA basicly did quite the same. you have 24+ classes to choose from and you have a rank. it can go up to 278 which means you capped off every class. when your rank is high enough you dont get exp from mobs anymore and is forced to farm trophies to lvl up your classes. while you still gain exp all day if you want to a system similar was used to keep players from becomeing the uber character as the game ALSO COMBINES skills from other classes to any class you play. as a ranger you can have druid abilities ect. this game came out in 2003 a buggy unplayable mess but still the idea more so concept of combinding classes to give them more powers is old has been done.
the threshold is stupid. if they want to keep their playerbase as one so the casuals can play with the hardcore.
WHY NOT KEEP THE DARN LVL SYNC THAT FFXI HAS THAT IS MUCH BETTER IN EVERY CONCIEVABLE WAY.
watch how elitism will sprout out like it did with ffxi of not having x or y gear will now relate of not having x or y skill. give it a few years before the loyal playerbase matrures out of the elitism
There is no reason this should be in the game. It does not add anything to FFXIV it only takes away from the game and that is why I do not like it.
I sorry that you cannot see how it will effect you because you have to keep trying to "fight the trolls" (there are alot and most of them are retarded)
Just because it renforces a concept in the game dosn't mean it's good.
Edit: One last edit before I go.
The casual player, anyone thought of him here? say he keeps leveling at the same rate with the hardcore player but only with his main job. Then what? he is the gimp guy that no one will do anything with. Unless he does what? o thats right spend as much time as the hardcore guy and thus the system does what? FUCKING NOTHING IT'S FUCKING WORTHLESS PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF SE's ASS.
LMAO you are right it doesnt make much sense the hard core players will still have an edge no matter what.... I agree with you.. Beat them Trolls down! lol
OH I still have my CE ordered and willnot change it Im looking forward to this game but you are sooo right
After watching the video, I feel a bit better about the fatigue system. There is a very obvious spin put on it, but that's to be expected when you're trying to change minds.
I still dislike arbitrary limitations, but in reality your average gamer should be largely unaffected, except when they have a vacation week or something. The change from vertical progression to horizontal progression among all of the professions is an interesting idea.
The main downside I see is trying to get lower level friends caught up to you. It would be nice if SE would implement something of a sidekick system to help alleviate level disparity issues.
I still refuse to purchase out the gate, but I will now keep an eye on the game and give it a whirl when a trial becomes available.
I think most people miss the point of this system, even though they said it at the very beginning. A high leveling curve annoys casuals and a low leveling curve annoys hardcore players. This system keeps you playing and paying without having you zip through the content or getting bored from slow progression. Unfortunately this still makes some hardcore players unhappy, but I guess you can't please everyone.
I absolutely love this thread. People willing to rationalize a really bad system as something positive. As always, if you enjoy this, more power to you. But, in reality, you are simply rewarding Sony's unwillingness to provide sufficient content. most mmo's do this. they only release so much content till a fair amout of people hit max lvl. then they release more content.
As for myself (a fairly casual gamer), I do get to play most nights for an hour or two, and there are some weekends (every 2nd or 3rd) where I can devote some down time to just playing a game. It would tick me off to no end to get to a point of playing my character the way I want only to find that at some point during the weekend, I will no longer be able to progress as I see fit.
Sony and the FF fanboys can spin this as something positive until they are blue in their faces, but it is nothing short of laziness on Sony's part, and is exactly the opposite way that most gamers would like to go. Again, this is just another nail in the Sony coffin if they were looking to pull in non-FF fanboys into the game.
only reason you could say im defending this system, is because i personally believe that it can work. there are many variables that people are neglecting with this sytem, that may be clouding thier judgement. please correct me if im wrong.
after EXPING 15 hours straight, you can no longer lvl, or is at after reaching a certain amount of exp in a 15 hour period you can no longer lvl? personally there is no way in hell i can just exp 15 hours straight!
so does this mean that if i play for 15 hours today, 10 of it was exping, and 5 of it was questing/storyline. does this mean that i can no longer gain exp? my understanding is that you will still be able to gain exp because you still have 5 hours of exp left.
so i have hit the curve and no longer am gaining exp. there is nothing else to do in the game? guildleves, quest, storyline, lvl other disciplines.
the best suggestion is to simply wait till the game is released, if your worried about the system, dont buy the game. wait a month or 2 for reviews about the system. then make judgements. its amazing how its getting shot down before people really know its mechanics, simply because it doesnt sound good..
edit: You know what else didnt sound good when it was first proposed? THE AIRPLANE! "it cant be done", "humans werent meant to fly", "your crazy", "your idea will never work". im sure those are some of the things the wright brothers heard when making the plane. Now look how many plan fly per day.
Dont knock it before you try it, or you have all your facts. Unless its the government talking about implanting chips inside people! never agree to it!
I think most people miss the point of this system, even though they said it at the very beginning. A high leveling curve annoys casuals and a low leveling curve annoys hardcore players. This system keeps you playing and paying without having you zip through the content or getting bored from slow progression. Unfortunately this still makes some hardcore players unhappy, but I guess you can't please everyone.
i agree with you. these forums used to be alot better. now its just people unsatisfied with anything they hear about posting here. people complain about the fatigue system, yet so few people have actually gotten to the point where they get no exp.
people can post thier comments and dress them up to sound all nice, and put down a system they havent even tried yet. sooo many posters saying how bad or dumb this system is when they arent in the beta or have yet to even see it, then they try to say that we are dumb, or stupid or ignorant for defending the system.
thier like gossip girls. they get a piece of information and twist and turn it around until they convince others that your a bad person. kinda like those highschool rumors that people always started about people they didnt like. you masturbate 3 times a night, you sniff glue, you ate worms, you wet the bed till you were 12. people around them start to believe the rumors. How do they know this when you just moved to this USA from Japan 2 weeks ago, where you were born and raised.
AMAZING how convincing some people can be when they dont like something that they know nothing about.
Comments
Actually, before they implemented the fatigue system the leveling curve was actually increased, because you could no longer gain normal EXP for killing creatures much lower level than you. While this was an obvious bug, it did increase the overall leveling curve.
Right now I feel the leveling curve is already extremely hardcore. Without the fatigue system I'd still imagine it would take even the most hardcore, fastest powerlevelers (as a member of that crowd - I have a few server first max level characters across a few MMOs) 1 month or 360 hours to reach max level on physical, probably another 1 and a half to 2 weeks or 100 hours to reach it on your main class. With fatigue that's going to at least double the time it takes for them to hit cap. Capping all classes is going to take at least a year, even for the most hardcore.
In comparison to Western MMOs it takes about 2 weeks average for the most hardcore to reach max and games with the easiest leveling curve can be done in a single long week. It's pretty much a standard leveling curve for Eastern MMOs, but it's certainly not casual. I'd imagine it would still take a casual player at least a year to max a SINGLE skill level.
Note: I'm just speculating here because Beta 3 was capped at 30 and the actual cap would be 50 (I have no desire to try to reach this in open beta).
So far I could care less about the Fatigue system. I never play just one toon. Yet I can understand not being able to go crazy and lvl.. But its the quest system that kills the game for me. You dont even have to worry about loot. It does it for you.. I cant even wonder what kind of beta testers cried about that. This quest thing is for me awful. Most mmo's now as of late at lest try to hide, make more fun the questing. Not here. This mmo is your basic PAY to take a quest and kill so many 'X's". I dont know one person that loves the questing. Is there a story line?
Well for ME and I am not the best player here. But its hard to understand sometimes ..I do know is still beta but who is reading this? How many times do they have to read "shuold" yea.. its not should and then you read it its like they just used google translator to do it. Not alot but so close to release. And after all these years the NPC's are dead. No life. So its the same go up to .. talk , take what ever..go to someone else or something else take timequest.. kill so many and repeat. I'm one of those that love to just kill to see the loot sometimes. But now even thats no fun. I dont get to loot. The system does it for me. If you like this MMO great have fun. There will always be some that love it, think its the best ever! Like Warhammer, Startrek, COL blah blah.. for THEM it is. In this MMO they found a way to make you play longer .. oops to PAY longer.
Didn't even bother joining the OB this game should have been a new oldschool heaven but somehow they managed to destroy it.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Well Mr. Fullbrain, why even bother lowering yourself to the level of Halfbrainers. As a halfbrainer, I'm utterly pleased that you graced us with your preseence.
I want to take the time to apologize for liking this system. I also want to apologize for enjoying the beta. If only I had an extra half of a brain, maybe then I could hate the game and troll these forums.
This was very informative. There were a couple items mentioned in there i didn't even know i could do, probably because it was never mentioned in game!
Thanks!
"Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better." parrotpholk
But since the game doesnt even have competitions (PvP) why should you care how fast others can level?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I think I finally understand what they are trying to do here. They really want people to explore multiple jobs, and don't want it to seem like an endless task.
In FFXI, everyone played multiple classes anyways. But it took a VERY long time to level many different classes in FFXI because the leveling curve was very steep.
In FFXIV, they've lowered the leveling curve. It doesn't take nearly as long to level a rank as it did in FFXI. With this, though, they had to put restrictions in place to keep people from leveling one job to 50 in a week, and then not having anything to do. With the Fatigue system, they can have a smaller leveling curve without worrying about the hardcore running out of content. This also gives the hardcore and casuals the chance to level other jobs, and actually make progress.
I for one am loving the idea of this system. Hardcore players will always be ahead of casuals. It's just how MMOs work. However, this promotes a more horizontal progression for all players.
FFXI was always a horizontal game as well, and I think that's what I liked about it. Even the end game was horizontal, which brought much more variety to end game events.
I suppose my main issues/concerns aren't many but:
1. Multiclassing means I have to sit killing rats and puks 2 to 3 times as long as I'd like to. It really isn't that fun the first time.
2. Those with more time will have more character skills and be more valuable. Instead of groups looking for Gladiator, I'd guess they will look for Max Melee x3 characters.
3. Inventory Space. I logged, mined, and did combat, my bags were always full. No need to beat a dead horse, but UI+lag+full bags=a very very very long time sorting and managing inventory.
---
I think I mentioned in another thread the video is decent, but too much spin. Saying" you can't do what you want to", but" here is what you can do" isn't freedom.
Drop the next-gen marketing and people will argue if the game itself has merit.
Yes.. Loved FFXI and the "Side Grades" not "up grades" .. SE does a lot of horizontal design and i like it a lot.
It is a lot like SWG Pre-CU in that way skills work..
I dont know i just dont buy it. this video did one thing only to me.
Prove once again that causals and hardcore will still play seperately.
soooooooooooooo you can grow horizontally (that has to be some type of innuendo)
here is why its going to be bad.
elitism. and thats why.
so the casual gets his gladiator to lets say lvl 20.
the hardcore due to thresholds is forced to grow ... ok you know the drill. thus obtaining much more skills wich will improve survivability, dmg ect.
so both gladiators are lvl 20.
who in flying hell you think is going to get chosen over the other. its gonna happen and you all know it. the causals will band together, lvling up one class, or slowly getting the skills needed. the hardcore will go on their own, they will prefer that highly advanced lvl 20 gladiator to tank much more than the lvl 20 gladiator with basic skills.
but lets say well the basics skills can still make a good gladiator work properly without the other skills.
then dps comes in and its worse. so i decided to be a pulgist. im casual and want to be dps.
why should i be chosen over the other same lvled pulgist with mulit classed skills.
you know to be frank this is crap.
HORIZONS NOW KNOWN AS ISTARIA basicly did quite the same. you have 24+ classes to choose from and you have a rank. it can go up to 278 which means you capped off every class. when your rank is high enough you dont get exp from mobs anymore and is forced to farm trophies to lvl up your classes. while you still gain exp all day if you want to a system similar was used to keep players from becomeing the uber character as the game ALSO COMBINES skills from other classes to any class you play. as a ranger you can have druid abilities ect. this game came out in 2003 a buggy unplayable mess but still the idea more so concept of combinding classes to give them more powers is old has been done.
the threshold is stupid. if they want to keep their playerbase as one so the casuals can play with the hardcore.
WHY NOT KEEP THE DARN LVL SYNC THAT FFXI HAS THAT IS MUCH BETTER IN EVERY CONCIEVABLE WAY.
watch how elitism will sprout out like it did with ffxi of not having x or y gear will now relate of not having x or y skill. give it a few years before the loyal playerbase matrures out of the elitism
LMAO you are right it doesnt make much sense the hard core players will still have an edge no matter what.... I agree with you.. Beat them Trolls down! lol
OH I still have my CE ordered and willnot change it Im looking forward to this game but you are sooo right
After watching the video, I feel a bit better about the fatigue system. There is a very obvious spin put on it, but that's to be expected when you're trying to change minds.
I still dislike arbitrary limitations, but in reality your average gamer should be largely unaffected, except when they have a vacation week or something. The change from vertical progression to horizontal progression among all of the professions is an interesting idea.
The main downside I see is trying to get lower level friends caught up to you. It would be nice if SE would implement something of a sidekick system to help alleviate level disparity issues.
I still refuse to purchase out the gate, but I will now keep an eye on the game and give it a whirl when a trial becomes available.
only reason you could say im defending this system, is because i personally believe that it can work. there are many variables that people are neglecting with this sytem, that may be clouding thier judgement. please correct me if im wrong.
after EXPING 15 hours straight, you can no longer lvl, or is at after reaching a certain amount of exp in a 15 hour period you can no longer lvl? personally there is no way in hell i can just exp 15 hours straight!
so does this mean that if i play for 15 hours today, 10 of it was exping, and 5 of it was questing/storyline. does this mean that i can no longer gain exp? my understanding is that you will still be able to gain exp because you still have 5 hours of exp left.
so i have hit the curve and no longer am gaining exp. there is nothing else to do in the game? guildleves, quest, storyline, lvl other disciplines.
the best suggestion is to simply wait till the game is released, if your worried about the system, dont buy the game. wait a month or 2 for reviews about the system. then make judgements. its amazing how its getting shot down before people really know its mechanics, simply because it doesnt sound good..
edit: You know what else didnt sound good when it was first proposed? THE AIRPLANE! "it cant be done", "humans werent meant to fly", "your crazy", "your idea will never work". im sure those are some of the things the wright brothers heard when making the plane. Now look how many plan fly per day.
Dont knock it before you try it, or you have all your facts. Unless its the government talking about implanting chips inside people! never agree to it!
i agree with you. these forums used to be alot better. now its just people unsatisfied with anything they hear about posting here. people complain about the fatigue system, yet so few people have actually gotten to the point where they get no exp.
people can post thier comments and dress them up to sound all nice, and put down a system they havent even tried yet. sooo many posters saying how bad or dumb this system is when they arent in the beta or have yet to even see it, then they try to say that we are dumb, or stupid or ignorant for defending the system.
thier like gossip girls. they get a piece of information and twist and turn it around until they convince others that your a bad person. kinda like those highschool rumors that people always started about people they didnt like. you masturbate 3 times a night, you sniff glue, you ate worms, you wet the bed till you were 12. people around them start to believe the rumors. How do they know this when you just moved to this USA from Japan 2 weeks ago, where you were born and raised.
AMAZING how convincing some people can be when they dont like something that they know nothing about.