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The Doktor Does His Homework Re: Rookies, PvP & Nullsec
DoktorTeufel
Member UncommonPosts: 413
I've begun spending a great deal of time and effort researching proper nullsec corporations. By "research," I mean I identify nullsec corporations via recruitment threads and other means, examine the in-game profile of each corporation and its alliance, check their forums, and record their minimum SP requirement, if any. By "proper," I mean that they hold sovereignty in at least one system, or at the very least have access to standard nullsec resources and facilities. That means renters are included. Rookie training corps attached to proper nullsec alliances (an extremely rare phenomenon) also qualify. I'm not cherry-picking the most exclusive corps, either; I research them as I locate them.
Of the 40 corporations I've researched thus far, the average minimum SP requirement (this includes corps with requirements of 0 SP) is approximately 10 million skill points and those must be focused on PvP, in nearly all cases. This means learning skills, industrial skills, social skills, and similar don't count. Occasionally these corporations are actively recruiting industrialists, and in those cases the requirements are somewhat lower (though still in the neighborhood of 4-5 months).
What this boils down to is that your average rookie (who doesn't have fancy implants or high learning skills when he's born) will have to train nine or ten months' worth of skills just to reach that minimum requirement. More, during this time his training must be almost exclusively focused on PvP ships.
A large portion of these corporations expect you to already have PvP experience and an impressive killboard before you even join.
Of the corporations researched thus far, only 10% of them are rookie or near-rookie friendly, and two of those are dedicated "newbie training corporations" attached to proper nullsec corporations. Note that corps with lower SP requirements tend to be smaller and possibly renters, generally speaking.
-------------------------------------------
I've carefully recorded all of this data in an Open Office document. This is a verifiable list available upon request to anyone who asks for it. These numbers are not imaginary. 40 corporations isn't a huge quantity, so I'm shooting for 100+, which would be quite a substantial cross-section of nullsec. I predict that as I continue this research, the minimum SP requirement figure I stated above will be lessened, but also that the "rookie-friendly" percentage will fall to 5% or so.
My predicition: 95% of nullsec corporations will require an average minimum of 6 months of PvP-focused skill training to be considered for membership.
Why am I doing this? Because I am dead-tired of people saying "You can PvP in 2-6 weeks!" which is a statement with a HUGE catch and any number of strings attached. The same people who say that sort of thing turn around and support massive SP minimum requirements to join their own veteran corporations.
It is a myth that a jaunty cap and a spunky attitude will buy you a ticket to riches, incredible PvP, and endless possibilities from day one.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Comments
You can pvp in a limited amount of time, that you can't join specific nullsec corps has no effect on that whatsoever. Getting into a good corp will make all the difference ofc, but are you saying you cannot pvp at all without being in a corp?
Many nullsec corps require you to have a certain amount of skill points and to have pvp under your belt, thats true, but then if 'elite' guilds in any mmo simply let you walk into them as a total noob then they are not exactly what I'd consider to be top guilds...
You seem to be taking umbrage at the fact that in a sandbox mmo you can't join what equates to highend (or at the very least dangerous) content within a matter of minutes.
A jaunty cap and a spunky attitude will not buy you instant riches and incredible pvp from day one, but then thats not exactly the same as saying you will be doing nothing for the next 9 months or so is it.
EVE does indeed take patience and forethought to progress in and people saying you can 'wtfpwn' from day one are wrong, but your counter argument in looking at nullsec corp requirements is just a myopic an argument in truth.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Anyone can PvP in EVE at any time — that's true. Hour-old rookies in Velators can shoot each other with their civilian blasters, but will they learn anything particularly useful? Will they be on the path to PvP competency?
Nullsec corporations may be "the elite" of EVE, but allow me to set the record straight here. Carebears (that is, dedicated mission runners, dedicated miners, dedicated traders, and their ilk) make up a huge portion of EVE's total population.
When we're only discussing PvP, and we remove carebears from the equation, nullsec corporations actually represent an overwhelming majority of EVE's PvP population. There are more nullsec corporations in EVE than all the highsec ganker/wardec corporations, lowsec pirate corporations (these get rarer every year), and mercenary corporations combined. Additionally, nullsec corps tend to have significantly higher member counts than the latter types.
The "elite" nullsec organizations you refer to in fact represent the bulk of EVE PvP. Also, bear in mind that mercs are even more elitist than nullsec corps, and so are quite a few pirate corps.
Is it POSSIBLE to get into a non-garbage nullsec corporation early on? Absolutely. My point, though, is that the overwhelming trend in EVE PvP is elitism, closed doors, and an unwillingness to mentor new pilots.
As for what they'll be doing for those nine months, who can say? The lucky ones find a situation that suits them and continue playing. Perhaps the unlucky ones get discouraged and stop playing when they check the recruitment forum, start reading threads, and see massive SP requirements on nearly every post (and many times, nullsec corps on the first 2-3 pages ALL advertise high SP requirements).
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
I understand what you are trying to say, but doesn't the fact that a percentage, of those corps you researched, are dedicated rookie training corps sort of negate the overall point? You are listing all corps in an apples to apples scenario when a new player is not even going to be looking at that 20mil+ SP corp. They are going to look for the rookie corp that suits their current situation.
To phrase it another way, if i can join one of those rookie corps, what does it matter if there are 100 or 1000 other corps with requirements i don't currently meet? Or, am I misunderstanding and the rookie corps have significant obstacles to entry as well?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Took the words out of my mouth.
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To begin with, rookie-friendly nullsec corporations are far less visible than those with high requirements. You have to dig deep in order to find them, because they're the proverbial needle in a haystack. Bear in mind that the recruitment section of the EVE forum is also full of other advertisements, such as veterans looking for a new corp, carebear corps, and joke corps (e.g., Velator swarms and the like).
I cannot deny that the existence of even a few rookie-friendly nullsec corporations is better than none, and that these create possibility, rather than impossibility. I've never denied that.
However, I'm not dealing in possibilities here. I'm dealing with the big picture, and with people's impression of the game. The very fact that such an overwhelming majority of competent corporations refuse to mentor newbies may put someone off the game, even though they may be aware of the few alternatives. This is where the "I can't catch up to older players" sentiment comes from.
In summary, no, the few exceptions don't entirely salvage the whole. If you removed those exceptions, what would we be left with? Arguably the best part of the game, exclusively available to veterans (or high-SP-count characters, at least) or their cronies outside the game.
Yes, the exceptions are a salvation. But they are also indicators of what I consider a serious problem. Nullsec alliances are stuffed full of EVE's most experienced players, and fewer than 10% of them are willing to mentor new players... and given the fairly low veteran member count of most rookie-friendly nullsec training corps compared to their standard counterparts, the number is likely 5% or lower.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Sure, if you "remove the exceptions" then the point is conveniently made, however, those "exceptions" exist and provide an avenue for new players to get into 0.0 early on. Now sure, someone might have to look around a bit to find those rookie corps, but I don't necessarily consider that a bad thing. That could probably just be chalked up to a matter of perspective/personal opinion.
The averaging of the SP requirements goes a long way toward skewing the reality of the situation from my point of view. A new player is going to be more concerned with the lowest common denominator in relation to SP then they are the average. So I wonder what the training time would be to get into the lower SP requirement corps that you researched and whether that would result in a recruit who is more prepared (i.e. understands mechanics and such) and who would, supposedly, enjoy their time in 0.0 a bit more as a result.
Really, good on you for putting some effort into trying to support a position. That's more then most people would bother with. In the end though, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics right?
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
The lowest SP requirement I've seen outside of corporations that openly welcome rookies (other than trial account limitations) is 5m. That is still a minimum of three months' training time for a rookie, or more if all 5m must be PvP-centric (which it usually must). That's fairly easily doable, I'll grant you that, but it still precludes some of the outlandishly enthusiastic claims I see presented to newbies about diving into PvP.
Also, there are far more 10m-20m corps than there are 5m (or 25m) corps. The statistics are somewhat like a Bell curve in that regard. Less than 5m is extremely rare (the aforementioned rookie-friendly corps), and I have yet to see anything above 25m.
Lies, damned lies, and statistics, fair enough. The resource I'm using is right there for everyone to see, though. It's all public information. I know people can't be bothered to painstakingly read all that text, which is why I'm doing it for them.
I want people to be informed. After they get the happy, you-can-do-anything-in-EVE Reading Rainbow spiel, I wish they'd get some more concrete and realistic facts to work with as well. Thus armed, they'd know exactly what they were getting into.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
So........
You're still just proving yourself wrong. Do, I understand all your long winded posts right?
There are corporations out there who exist in null sec, who will take on newbies and teach them the ropes. You say it in almost every one of your posts.
I don't think anyone said there are alot of them, but even a few is "plenty". You've already proved your "theory" wrong, so what are you trying to prove now? Yeah, most corps require some sort of a decent SP pool, but that's not all of them. Which is the point that all of us are trying to make when we talk to the newbies on this board.
They Exist.
End of Story.
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There a certainly a broad spectrum of expectations when it comes to what people believe can or should be done. Personally, I don't think a new player should try to head straight for 0.0. There should be some time spent learning the ropes and, all that time, SP is adding up. I think things like the certificate system help provide some form of guidance for new players picking their training, but there is still a lot left to the new player to research and that is a bigger obstacle toward that player having a good time in 0.0 (or any other endeavor really) then just raw SP.
About the "lies, damn lies, statistics...": This was not a comment about people not looking at source data. This more so referred to the fact that you (generically speaking) can take numbers and make them say what you want. An example is averaging the SP versus looking at the lowest requirements. Averaging creates a certain expectation whereas looking at the lowest barrier to entry creates another set of expectations. The numbers say the same thing regardless, but how you read them presents a different view.
Now, while I appreciate the public service angle, wouldn't it be more helpful to those people looking to get into 0.0 right away, to say: 'Hey, I've done the research and you should apply to these rookie corps."? I mean, otherwise you're just saying that it is possible, but that a new player has to put some effort into it which is really not a revelation.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
I am curious . . .
How many of the "rookie" nullsec PVP corps are recruiting all of the time? Are there membership limits? How many trainers are there in these corporations? I am guessing that those corps are recruiting all of the time as there is only so much effective training you can do. As the students start to significantly outnumber the trainers, the possibility of getting useful training goes down.
I think this is good work and is revealing. I play EVE and have been able to get into nullsec PVP corps even as a rookie with "no" PVP training. Unfortunately, the training you get in these corps tends to be lacking. Furthermore, a lot of the training that is needed is how to properly "fit" a ship. You need to learn the different roles, train skills specific to the role and ship fitting that is required.
I've never been a proponent of "anyone can get into nullsec PVP right away". It is "possible", but you will get your a$$ handed to you consistently. There is very little non-corp supported solo PVP in nullsec. You will invariably be in someone's NBSI territory and wonder how you got podded in 3 seconds by 10 ships. Furthermore, if this is the way you rock, your killboard will look like crap and you will never get into a "better" PVP corp as you will bring their stats down.
/commentary off
Rock on Dok. I applaud anyone that backs up claims and speculation with data.
Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.
Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
The real moral of the story is this:
The typical lines fed to new players, right here in this forum and pretty much everywhere else, are "you can be useful in PvP in a T1 frigate," "rookies are a valuable resource," and "don't be concerned about your SP total, you don't need to catch up".
Yet 90% of nullsec corporations set recruitment guidelines indicating that, in fact, they have no need of T1 frigates and don't consider them useful, they are uninterested in tapping the valuable resource that rookies represent, and they are, in fact, quite concerned with SP totals.
That is the end of the story.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
Gotta run for now, I'll apply to newer posts when I return.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
None of these statements make reference to 0.0.
"you can be useful in PvP in a T1 frigate". This is true and things like RvB actually encourage/cater to frigate PvP.
"rookies are a valuable resource". This is true. As players grow out of "rookie roles" new rookies can step in. Tackling is an oft-cited example.
"don't be concerned about your SP total, you don't need to catch up". This is true. If I have frigates at 5 and my opponent, who is flying a frigate, has Battlecruisers at 5, that BC training isn't doing him any good. He has more raw SP, but only a portion is applicable to the current scenario. Therefore, catching up would not benefit me. It would only provide me with more options in my overall game play.
Now, if people always repeated those phrases and ended them with "in 0.0", you could have a point.. But as of right now, you are taking two different conversations and trying to join them.
Regarding the 90%, does that take into account the rookie/feeder corps that are extension of their parent corps? If not, then I would argue that those "parent corps" do in fact have interest in tapping rookies as a resource and that SP totals are only minimally important (as exemplified by them providing an alternate recruitment method via the rookie corp). I can see that they might not consider t1 frigates too useful in 0.0 warfare, but then they are also, presumably, providing guidance to get you into a more appropriate ship for the environment.
Again, it comes down to how you choose to look at the data. In the end, the data says that a new player can in fact go to 0.0 right away. The data does not say whether this is practical or advised. That is a judgement call that different people will have different experiences which inform their decision.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Right.
Why don't you use this research to write a short guide on how newbies CAN get into good corps with low SP?
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What you assert people are saying in paragraph one about the frigates and the like, is not even slightly related to your counter argument in paragraph two...
You can indeed pvp relatively early on (although it could get grim), there are indeed corps that take in low SP players and at the start of the game you shouldn't be overly bothered about your SP total. That the majority of nullsec corps that dominate successful pvp only take on experienced players is really by the by and has absolutely fuck all to do with what you seem to be railing against.
Yes there are some unrealistic posters on these forums claiming you can be teh uber from the beginning, but who really listens to them?, they are certainly in the minority. I don't see many posts or guides stating that the majority of nullsec corps will take any old nugget onboard straight away and this is essentially what you claim to be seeing all the time.
The story here is you are singling out a minority of posters and countering their assertions with statistics that really don't have anything to do with what they are banging on about in the first place.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
You're also acting like space-holding corps are the only corps that are involved in PvP. Renter corps, or corps that don't hold space and are instead just a part of an alliance that may hold space, are MANY, and are involved in PvP just as frequently as others.
I had roughly 5m SP, and was allowed into an OLD (I want to say they've been around for 3.5, nearing 4 years) 0.0 corp. They rent space -sometimes-, and are very active PvPers, and are made up of veterans that know the game pretty well. Just because a corp doesn't want to be involved in the drama of sov-warfare, doesn't mean you can't find PvP corps easily. I posted a thread on the forum that myself and a friend were looking for a corp, and got about 20 responses within the first couple days. After checking them all out thoroughly, about half of them were established 0.0 or low-sec corps, and were willing to take my friend and I, who were pretty much complete noobs to the PvP portion of the game. The rest were either 'uninteresting', or focused on things we didn't want to do.
This did occur to me, and I might do it.
Hey, I'd love to be wrong about the number of people spreading overenthusiastic disinformation. Perhaps it's my mistake.
These are what I would consider reasonable and unbiased answers to the two biggest rookie (and prospective player) questions concerning EVE PvP:
Can I jump into EVE PvP right away?
"Yes, but your options will be fairly limited for the first few months. If you want to join a serious PvP corp while your SP are low, you'll need to search very carefully to locate a legitimate, competent corp that is also rookie-friendly. Barring that, know the right people, or get a bit lucky."
How long will it take me to become competitive?
"In serious PvP? You'll need to focus on and train for Interdictors, HACs, Black Ops, Recon, or some other advanced design. Just flying these isn't enough; you'll also need an assortment of respectable core and support skills. This will take 6-8 months or so."
Is that fair? Because if that's what everyone else has been saying, then I really am stupid and will shut up straightaway.
You know, despite the fact that I may come off as an a-hole, I'm really not. I must say, though, that there are some garbage renter corps, some terribad newbie-friendly "PvP" corps, and some that simply aren't the right fit for certain people. In other words, for a particular individual, the choices are much smaller than they might seem and he probably won't even be able to find every single possibility.
Regarding this discussion, I'm simply stubborn and persistent because I believe pilots should be chosen for who they are, their attitude and their learning potential, not for how long they've been accumulating SP. In my mind, it doesn't matter if they've been in EVE for one day or one thousand days. Complete and utter imbeciles wearing their ass for a top hat can (and often do) accumulate 30m SP and even become acceptably competent at PvP.
I will say this: If you refuse to believe that a majority of competent, prominent PvP corporations setting 6-month-plus SP minimums doesn't send a message to prospective players, then I don't know what to tell you. If nothing else, it suggests that there must be something wrong with corporations who don't have SP minimums surely if they'll take just anyone when everyone else is so picky, they must suck, right?
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
As to the underlined, yes that is right and it's what I tell new/prospective players. Oddly, entering the game it's the impression I was given as well. Not being funny but it is up to new players to a certain extent to look into what they can and cannot achieve within a given timeframe in any mmo. There are countless guides and info out there, if someone is going to take one random poster at their word that 'you can roll people within a week dude' then perhaps they are not suited to a game like EVE anyway.
As to what seems to be the real crux of your point, that some corps value SP over the player him/herself then yes that is a difficult point to approach. In any other current mmo (with the exception of DF) I would say that as a guild leader I would always look at the player themself, their attitude and potential, their skills can be developed in time. But in EVE, you know full well how cutthroat the game can be, nullsec corps are only going to take people they can background check, or at least the good ones will. As such many will not take in the 30m SP retards for that very reason, they don't know them. Whilst many corps post SP mins, I would be highly suprised if they didnt take people in with less then the min whom they knew.
With that in mind personally I don't think the corps in nullsec setting sp mins is sending the wrong message at all. Tbh in pretty much every mmo i've played, you don't walk into the top guilds early doors. You go through feeders and after several months work your way into the position that suits your gameplay the most.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
My experience is just the opposite. In nearly every single game listed in my signature the sole exception being FFXI I carefully searched for and joined a non-garbage, newbie-friendly player organization almost from day one, and generally stuck with them until the end of my time in the game.
Some of these organizations went on to be (or already were) dominant in PvP or another competitive activity, depending on the game. Most were large and quite active, and all of them were capable of participating in the endgame. I had the time of my life on Ventrilo with some of these people ("time of my life" may be overstating the case, but a good time was had nonetheless).
I even worked my way up the ranks to lead one such player organization, and it was one of the largest and most powerful organizations I've belonged to in my career playing MMORPGs.
I've always hated level/time played/SP/whatever requirements, and I try to avoid joining organizations who use them if I can yes, even after I've become a powerful player in-game. I'm not the type of person to USE "lesser" organizations as stepping stones, sorry. Perhaps my dislike of the ubiquitousness of a policy I consider lazy and elitist makes more sense in this context.
My shunning of non-newbie-friendly organizations has served me well over the years, and there are old guild mates I remember clearly to this day from years ago whom I'd never have met if they'd had to play the game for six ****ing months before they could join.
Some people need a high-quality, intelligent, active, mature community ASAP. I'm sorry to say this, but those are friggin' RARE among many entry-level PvP corporations. I can't speak for carebear corporations, but that's beyond the scope of what we're discussing here, I think.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR
People don't view guilds as stepping stones, but many pvp guilds in many mmo's don't take on random newbs. General all round or large guilds do. Yes these large guilds may pvp and the player may well stay with them, but in every mmo you have hardcore pvp guilds who take what they consider to be known players onboard. The stepping stone comment is a tad wrong as I was simply pointing out that some people learn the game in one guild then move to another that suits the playstyle they find fits them the most. I'm not saying people actively use one guild to get to another.
When you talk about which guilds will take what players you open up a whole smorgasbord of issues, each guild being of different sizes and opinions as to who they are looking for. Some only take on known/experienced players, some take on anyone. A small, tightknit pvp group should never just take on any random incase the harmony of the group should be ruined, larger guilds have more luxury.
That there isn't a high quality entry level pvp guild points to two things; the first is that that is exactly why many pvp guilds are selective, they dont want to ruin their group with randoms. The second is that if there is a niche in the market... why not set one up yourself?
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Now if this is the point you're trying to get at, I can completely agree. While I can understand some value in an SP requirement, I see it much like a gear score in WoW. It's a number that does not really speak to the quality of the individual. At least in WoW, the person had to group up to get the high end gear in order to produce an appealing gear score. In EvE you just have to log in every so often and update your queue :P
I also generally agree with your "Can I jump into EVE PvP right away?" and "How long will it take me to become competitive?" points. Certainly, there are exceptions to every rule, but your answers convey your point in a much more concise and constructive manner then your OP.
Maybe a "DoktorTeufel's FAQ for New Pilots" would be in order. You seem fairly articulate and make a decent effort to support your statements so I couldn't see that as being anything but helpful to prospective players.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
we go on frigate roams and covop roams al the time. Its not too hard and we have many noobie corps. Granted we arent holding space atm, but we did and just did fine for a while.
(1) By your own account, the "Jaunty cap" will get you in to the other 5% of nullsec corps. And you only need 1.
(2) I can tell you for a fact that those "SP requirements" are not nearly so absolute as you assume. They are a first-pass filter for unsolicited applications. Personal recommendations are but one way in which they are more porous than you think.
(3) Why does it have to be nullsec?
(4) No-one said it would be easy, only that it was possible
(5) There's nothing to stop new players forming their own alliance and getting out there, like Goonswarm did once upon a time, and TEST ALLIANCE did a few months ago. They were in Syndicate within a month of forming.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
Well i never went straight to pvp but i know that red vs blue will bring you massive pvp combats from the day you join. Its a great "collection" of corps yet its not in 0.0 They can teach you the do's and don'ts of pvp so you can be trained. Thats where i learned my pvp after i was a full time miner, i mined everywhere and had no skill in fighting besides a mining vessel (hulk) So when i ended up there it was back to the frigate and train, now i am full t2 bc:) (not that far yet but still i am getting there) anyways the way i found out about that is because i asked in chat. There IS A HELPING CHANNEL to help players getting a corp. You just gotta learn of it first:) However the financial situation got worse so i quit some time ago. Now i am getting out there again:D The ticket to great pvp is just learning of it, the chat is a good way to learn. The chat will give you the answers you need in the start. All people gotta do is talk to people, a new player that doesn't use the chat is doomed to be a quitter. Thats where most of them fails with the presumption that they will get contacted by the most elite corps about an offer to join. They will have to make the contact! (they should put a popup at the start of the game telling people how to use it:)
Maybe, maybe not. Having a gnarly 'tude makes little difference if the right people can't appreciate it, so this comes down to sheer luck in making good connections.
For a fact? I am aware of your character, and that you're an experienced EVE player. Unless you've been in a significant cross-section of nullsec corporations, however, this statement is nothing more than speculative, hardly fact.
As long as we're speculating, I'll posit that personal recommendations are one of the only ways in which they're porous. Knowing the right people trumps everything, but that doesn't factor into this, because a vast majority of respective rookies don't know the right people... nor should they, in most cases.
It doesn't absolutely have to be. When you add pirates and mercenaries to the equation, though, the "SP requirement" and "rookie-friendly" numbers would probably worsen. Perhaps WH corps would be easier to join; that, I don't know. Carebear corporations don't count, because if people enjoy watching paint dry while chatting online, they can fire up MSN and slap a coat of hi-gloss on their computer room door, saving themselves $15 a month in subscription fees.
I admit, it is fair to point to E-UNI and RvB as alternatives. It takes weeks or months to get into E-UNI, however, and I'm not sure about RvB, so I can't comment. I need to put an alt in there to see for myself, though.
And I've never said EVE is a bad game, that it should be easy, or that people are mean and bad for setting SP requirements. I believe they've been forced into it because of the way the game works.
Accepting promising (not "just anyone") rookies on a regular basis instead of only veterans means fewer HACs and other powerful ships in your fleets. And if that happens, corporations who accept only veterans will have an edge over your fleets. Thus, only a very few exceptions are allowed to pass these "porous SP filters" (major exception being someone very focused on one type of powerful ship).
Nothing other than the fact that Goonswarm and Test Alliance Please Ignore had large, popular nerd websites to draw their membership from. In other words, nothing other than a pre-existing network of thousands of people.
Yes, if you have hundreds of friends start the game with you, in that case your alliance CAN matter. This is true.
Currently Playing: EVE Online
Retired From: UO, FFXI, AO, SWG, Ryzom, GW, WoW, WAR