The general EvE-public likes to sustain the rosy image of EvE being the epitome of 'you can start right off PvPing and if you're smart you'll have a blast and get better'; Which by all means isn't true.
A while back, I made a trial account and before the trial expired, I had +100 kills on that char.
Dammit, someone should have told me that such things 'isn't true by all means', I was doing it wrong!
Seriously, what is this thread about? Is it a 'I am doing something everyone know it does not work for obvious reasons, look I have proof' thread type? Just in case I am missing something here...
You know, apart from picking Teufel's datamining apart and argue about how valuable a complete noob is (as a prominent example), the key point that fortifies Teufel's position immensely is the fact that there is agreement on a 'new player being a liability to serious 0.0 corps'.
By admitting this it is intrinsicly already proven that the common catchphrases to newbies are terribly underrating the enormous difficulties a PvP interested newbie is encountering when starting off into PvP. The general EvE-public likes to sustain the rosy image of EvE being the epitome of 'you can start right off PvPing and if you're smart you'll have a blast and get better'; Which by all means isn't true.
New players should be confronted, keeping in mind that they are used to regular MMORPGs, with the fact that if they want to have fun-pvp and be successful in what they do they _need_ to learn a lot and expect at least 8 to 12 weeks training time until they are reaching a position that's somewhere near a chance against the regular PvP-joe. And I'm not talking about 0.0 and getting into PvP corps.
M
For the nth time: It's possible, not easy. No-one has ever said that it was easy. No-one has ever said that everyone can do it, only that anyone can try.
If it was easy to do, who would care?
"New players should be confronted, keeping in mind that they are used to regular MMORPGs, with the fact that if they want to have fun-pvp and be successful in what they do they _need_ to learn a lot and expect at least 8 to 12 weeks training time until they are reaching a position that's somewhere near a chance against the regular PvP-joe. And I'm not talking about 0.0 and getting into PvP corps."
100% correct. I couldn't have expressed it better. But as I said to the good Doktor, what you seem to think is a "con", I see as a "pro". EVE is a game that actually lets you fail. You can play it and lose, and that's one of the prime differences between it and other MMOs. That's why we who play it do so; the real chance of loss is what makes victory sweet.
On a side note, it'll probably take a lot more than 8 weeks to stand a chance vs a "regular PvP joe" in a 1v1. But 1v1s are by far the rarest form of combat, so dont worry too much about that.
Anyone can PvP in EVE at any time — that's true. Hour-old rookies in Velators can shoot each other with their civilian blasters, but will they learn anything particularly useful? Will they be on the path to PvP competency?
Nullsec corporations may be "the elite" of EVE, but allow me to set the record straight here. Carebears (that is, dedicated mission runners, dedicated miners, dedicated traders, and their ilk) make up a huge portion of EVE's total population.
When we're only discussing PvP, and we remove carebears from the equation, nullsec corporations actually represent an overwhelming majority of EVE's PvP population. There are more nullsec corporations in EVE than all the highsec ganker/wardec corporations, lowsec pirate corporations (these get rarer every year), and mercenary corporations combined. Additionally, nullsec corps tend to have significantly higher member counts than the latter types.
The "elite" nullsec organizations you refer to in fact represent the bulk of EVE PvP. Also, bear in mind that mercs are even more elitist than nullsec corps, and so are quite a few pirate corps.
Is it POSSIBLE to get into a non-garbage nullsec corporation early on? Absolutely. My point, though, is that the overwhelming trend in EVE PvP is elitism, closed doors, and an unwillingness to mentor new pilots.
As for what they'll be doing for those nine months, who can say? The lucky ones find a situation that suits them and continue playing. Perhaps the unlucky ones get discouraged and stop playing when they check the recruitment forum, start reading threads, and see massive SP requirements on nearly every post (and many times, nullsec corps on the first 2-3 pages ALL advertise high SP requirements).
hmm are we playing the same game? Most allainces in null sec are made up of alot of corps... If you find an alliance you would like to join that holds sov in 0,0 it wont be all that hard to find one corp willing to take you on. What is said in reqruitment post and what actually happens ingame is totaly diffrent thing. Just because a corp says we want this jada jada jada... when they actually reqruit someone the standards might be lowerd if the person is a right fit.
Secondly will you have FUN in 0,0 5m after you undock from the station? that answer is NO... You need to learn the game and train up skills, and not just the PvP once.
EvE univirsity and many other rookie corps in highsec are exellent places to start... going down into low sec or 0,0 with no money and low skills is not adviced... the same would go for starting to RAID in other mmos when your are lvl 1
As any mmo EvE requires you to train and become better, that you would have nothing to do for the first 9 months though is total BS... You have to learn the game as many a Character buying NOOB have come to understand... just because you have the SP dosent mean you have the IRL skills to pull of low sec or 0,0 living... WHs are also not recomended if you dont know what you are doing...
That being said it dosent take you long to train up Assult frigs or Interceptors and you will be totaly okey in small gang skirmishes.
My personal feeling is this... I have 80m sp on my main toon, 23m sp on my cyno toon and 12m sp on my mining/industry toon... I have played since 2004 off and on. The most boring of those times where when I was in 0,0 alliances... Boring gatecamps, even more boring roams... Pointless pvp that only cost me ISK. Since WH space openend up I moved in there and have had a blast ever since. Trading is also fun in highsec, and I used to do alot of drug running with hedonistic imperative and Ess and wess down in low sec.... What im saying is 0,0 SPACE is BOORING AND stale, I personaly think it sucks... Pirating in low sec is alot more fun.. and nothing is stoping you from taking this up...
MY sugestion to you is Quit looking at 0,0 alliances and BLOB warfare as some sort of HOLY GRAIL of EVE its Hype dosent live up trust me.. It mostly SUCKS...
You know, apart from picking Teufel's datamining apart and argue about how valuable a complete noob is (as a prominent example), the key point that fortifies Teufel's position immensely is the fact that there is agreement on a 'new player being a liability to serious 0.0 corps'.
By admitting this it is intrinsicly already proven that the common catchphrases to newbies are terribly underrating the enormous difficulties a PvP interested newbie is encountering when starting off into PvP. The general EvE-public likes to sustain the rosy image of EvE being the epitome of 'you can start right off PvPing and if you're smart you'll have a blast and get better'; Which by all means isn't true.
New players should be confronted, keeping in mind that they are used to regular MMORPGs, with the fact that if they want to have fun-pvp and be successful in what they do they _need_ to learn a lot and expect at least 8 to 12 weeks training time until they are reaching a position that's somewhere near a chance against the regular PvP-joe. And I'm not talking about 0.0 and getting into PvP corps.
M
For the nth time: It's possible, not easy. No-one has ever said that it was easy. No-one has ever said that everyone can do it, only that anyone can try.
If it was easy to do, who would care?
"New players should be confronted, keeping in mind that they are used to regular MMORPGs, with the fact that if they want to have fun-pvp and be successful in what they do they _need_ to learn a lot and expect at least 8 to 12 weeks training time until they are reaching a position that's somewhere near a chance against the regular PvP-joe. And I'm not talking about 0.0 and getting into PvP corps."
100% correct. I couldn't have expressed it better. But as I said to the good Doktor, what you seem to think is a "con", I see as a "pro". EVE is a game that actually lets you fail. You can play it and lose, and that's one of the prime differences between it and other MMOs. That's why we who play it do so; the real chance of loss is what makes victory sweet.
On a side note, it'll probably take a lot more than 8 weeks to stand a chance vs a "regular PvP joe" in a 1v1. But 1v1s are by far the rarest form of combat, so dont worry too much about that.
No one said it was a con, it's just not how EvE is commonly outlined when some random newbie asks if he should give the game a shot.
I love EvE for what it is, but I myself have gone through a bitter time during my first weeks, because I literally had the feeling that the game _wanted_ me to quit. A satisfaction I would not grant this POS of code. Never regretted my choice of staying though. It does get better, just not at all as soon as some fanboys wanna make you believe.
It doesn't absolutely have to be. When you add pirates and mercenaries to the equation, though, the "SP requirement" and "rookie-friendly" numbers would probably worsen. Perhaps WH corps would be easier to join; that, I don't know. Carebear corporations don't count, because if people enjoy watching paint dry while chatting online, they can fire up MSN and slap a coat of hi-gloss on their computer room door, saving themselves $15 a month in subscription fees.
I admit, it is fair to point to E-UNI and RvB as alternatives. It takes weeks or months to get into E-UNI, however, and I'm not sure about RvB, so I can't comment. I need to put an alt in there to see for myself, though.
why on earth would you think pirate corps would be harder to get into then nullsec corps? Also you missed FW as well. You seem focused on 0.0 corps, and throw assumptions out about the other areas of eve you didnt bother looking into. Try running a couple more of these "experiments" as a fw pilot or a pirate.
Playing: EVE Online Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2 KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
You know, apart from picking Teufel's datamining apart and argue about how valuable a complete noob is (as a prominent example), the key point that fortifies Teufel's position immensely is the fact that there is agreement on a 'new player being a liability to serious 0.0 corps'.
By admitting this it is intrinsicly already proven that the common catchphrases to newbies are terribly underrating the enormous difficulties a PvP interested newbie is encountering when starting off into PvP. The general EvE-public likes to sustain the rosy image of EvE being the epitome of 'you can start right off PvPing and if you're smart you'll have a blast and get better'; Which by all means isn't true.
New players should be confronted, keeping in mind that they are used to regular MMORPGs, with the fact that if they want to have fun-pvp and be successful in what they do they _need_ to learn a lot and expect at least 8 to 12 weeks training time until they are reaching a position that's somewhere near a chance against the regular PvP-joe. And I'm not talking about 0.0 and getting into PvP corps.
M
For the nth time: It's possible, not easy. No-one has ever said that it was easy. No-one has ever said that everyone can do it, only that anyone can try.
If it was easy to do, who would care?
"New players should be confronted, keeping in mind that they are used to regular MMORPGs, with the fact that if they want to have fun-pvp and be successful in what they do they _need_ to learn a lot and expect at least 8 to 12 weeks training time until they are reaching a position that's somewhere near a chance against the regular PvP-joe. And I'm not talking about 0.0 and getting into PvP corps."
100% correct. I couldn't have expressed it better. But as I said to the good Doktor, what you seem to think is a "con", I see as a "pro". EVE is a game that actually lets you fail. You can play it and lose, and that's one of the prime differences between it and other MMOs. That's why we who play it do so; the real chance of loss is what makes victory sweet.
On a side note, it'll probably take a lot more than 8 weeks to stand a chance vs a "regular PvP joe" in a 1v1. But 1v1s are by far the rarest form of combat, so dont worry too much about that.
No one said it was a con, it's just not how EvE is commonly outlined when some random newbie asks if he should give the game a shot.
I love EvE for what it is, but I myself have gone through a bitter time during my first weeks, because I literally had the feeling that the game _wanted_ me to quit. A satisfaction I would not grant this POS of code. Never regretted my choice of staying though. It does get better, just not at all as soon as some fanboys wanna make you believe.
M
I'm always puzzled when I read posts like this, because the experience described is so utterly different from mine. Maybe we're just very different people or something, but when I started playing EVE, for the first few months my main feeling was that of constant amazement and excitement. Perhaps it helped that I was simply rather ignorant of what other people could do and were doing, and so I never worried about "catching up" or "being competitive".
You know, apart from picking Teufel's datamining apart and argue about how valuable a complete noob is (as a prominent example), the key point that fortifies Teufel's position immensely is the fact that there is agreement on a 'new player being a liability to serious 0.0 corps'.
By admitting this it is intrinsicly already proven that the common catchphrases to newbies are terribly underrating the enormous difficulties a PvP interested newbie is encountering when starting off into PvP. The general EvE-public likes to sustain the rosy image of EvE being the epitome of 'you can start right off PvPing and if you're smart you'll have a blast and get better'; Which by all means isn't true.
New players should be confronted, keeping in mind that they are used to regular MMORPGs, with the fact that if they want to have fun-pvp and be successful in what they do they _need_ to learn a lot and expect at least 8 to 12 weeks training time until they are reaching a position that's somewhere near a chance against the regular PvP-joe. And I'm not talking about 0.0 and getting into PvP corps.
M
For the nth time: It's possible, not easy. No-one has ever said that it was easy. No-one has ever said that everyone can do it, only that anyone can try.
If it was easy to do, who would care?
"New players should be confronted, keeping in mind that they are used to regular MMORPGs, with the fact that if they want to have fun-pvp and be successful in what they do they _need_ to learn a lot and expect at least 8 to 12 weeks training time until they are reaching a position that's somewhere near a chance against the regular PvP-joe. And I'm not talking about 0.0 and getting into PvP corps."
100% correct. I couldn't have expressed it better. But as I said to the good Doktor, what you seem to think is a "con", I see as a "pro". EVE is a game that actually lets you fail. You can play it and lose, and that's one of the prime differences between it and other MMOs. That's why we who play it do so; the real chance of loss is what makes victory sweet.
On a side note, it'll probably take a lot more than 8 weeks to stand a chance vs a "regular PvP joe" in a 1v1. But 1v1s are by far the rarest form of combat, so dont worry too much about that.
No one said it was a con, it's just not how EvE is commonly outlined when some random newbie asks if he should give the game a shot.
I love EvE for what it is, but I myself have gone through a bitter time during my first weeks, because I literally had the feeling that the game _wanted_ me to quit. A satisfaction I would not grant this POS of code. Never regretted my choice of staying though. It does get better, just not at all as soon as some fanboys wanna make you believe.
M
I'm always puzzled when I read posts like this, because the experience described is so utterly different from mine. Maybe we're just very different people or something, but when I started playing EVE, for the first few months my main feeling was that of constant amazement and excitement. Perhaps it helped that I was simply rather ignorant of what other people could do and were doing, and so I never worried about "catching up" or "being competitive".
We definitely _are_ different people; But not on the 'being competetive' side. Though I do think that I resemble the normal PC-game-dude more than the type that is 'amazed' by the sheer complexity and the endless possibility of bla bla, you know what I'm talking about. What do I expect when I enter a game:
Connect, wooo, cooool sword, wow, cool armor, lets slice something up, bam, niiiice sound effect, look how i crushed it, yaaay, chaaarge, oh damn im dead doesnt matter, banzai, hehe, cool great fun gimme a beer....
... I am 29, have a medical doctors degree, play in the evenings and still I head for these games for exactly the two lines above. EvE doesn't have that, at all.
Back in 2005,
... When I got into EVE, I clicked the hour long tutorial away with a "yea what the fu** ever, let me play the game will ya"
- I docked off racing my newbie ship through space, had exceptionally average 2 hours of "nice backdrop", "nice planets" and "nice warp tunnel" until I realized the only real way to play would be zoom out to max, get the distance radar backdrop.
- Two days later I realized I was alomost exclusively using spreadsheet windows I didn't understand, ranging from 30% 'wtf' to 90% 'wtf'
- Two weeks later I found myself grinding missions because, well, it was the only thing that seemed straightforward "do this, come back, get something for it"...
- Two weeks and two days later i was like "the heck, this is boring like s***"... So I started my personal tradition of ranting in the newbie channel about how the game sucked and ran across a guy...
Don't get me wrong, it wasn't from day 1 after this that I found EvE suddenly appealing. And even after getting into the meat of it and learning (some) ropes and actually having fun; I still think it's a butt fugly attempt to cater to tech nerds, math-genii and failed stockbrokers. The only, and I repeat, the only reason I stayed is because its the only game on the whole market that allows you do actually have an impact on the world.
It is only unfortunate that this really genuine and in every sense of the word epic feature is buried inside a gearboxy moloch of a game for sequential thinkers and mechanophiles, barren of the capability to summon any deeper emotional bond.
There's no denying that EVE is all about delayed gratification. But the delay isn't necessarily quite so big as a superficial analysis might indicate.
EDIT: Also I rather liked "I still think it's a butt fugly attempt to cater to tech nerds, math-genii and failed stockbrokers." Nice! Although my favourite description of EVE went something like "Playing EVE is like being an innocent young child released alone in to a park full of pedophiles. If you're lucky and get the breaks you can eventually become one of the pedophiles"
Comments
Link it or it didnt happen . . .
Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.
Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Factional_Warfare
For the nth time: It's possible, not easy. No-one has ever said that it was easy. No-one has ever said that everyone can do it, only that anyone can try.
If it was easy to do, who would care?
"New players should be confronted, keeping in mind that they are used to regular MMORPGs, with the fact that if they want to have fun-pvp and be successful in what they do they _need_ to learn a lot and expect at least 8 to 12 weeks training time until they are reaching a position that's somewhere near a chance against the regular PvP-joe. And I'm not talking about 0.0 and getting into PvP corps."
100% correct. I couldn't have expressed it better. But as I said to the good Doktor, what you seem to think is a "con", I see as a "pro". EVE is a game that actually lets you fail. You can play it and lose, and that's one of the prime differences between it and other MMOs. That's why we who play it do so; the real chance of loss is what makes victory sweet.
On a side note, it'll probably take a lot more than 8 weeks to stand a chance vs a "regular PvP joe" in a 1v1. But 1v1s are by far the rarest form of combat, so dont worry too much about that.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
hmm are we playing the same game? Most allainces in null sec are made up of alot of corps... If you find an alliance you would like to join that holds sov in 0,0 it wont be all that hard to find one corp willing to take you on. What is said in reqruitment post and what actually happens ingame is totaly diffrent thing. Just because a corp says we want this jada jada jada... when they actually reqruit someone the standards might be lowerd if the person is a right fit.
Secondly will you have FUN in 0,0 5m after you undock from the station? that answer is NO... You need to learn the game and train up skills, and not just the PvP once.
EvE univirsity and many other rookie corps in highsec are exellent places to start... going down into low sec or 0,0 with no money and low skills is not adviced... the same would go for starting to RAID in other mmos when your are lvl 1
As any mmo EvE requires you to train and become better, that you would have nothing to do for the first 9 months though is total BS... You have to learn the game as many a Character buying NOOB have come to understand... just because you have the SP dosent mean you have the IRL skills to pull of low sec or 0,0 living... WHs are also not recomended if you dont know what you are doing...
That being said it dosent take you long to train up Assult frigs or Interceptors and you will be totaly okey in small gang skirmishes.
My personal feeling is this... I have 80m sp on my main toon, 23m sp on my cyno toon and 12m sp on my mining/industry toon... I have played since 2004 off and on. The most boring of those times where when I was in 0,0 alliances... Boring gatecamps, even more boring roams... Pointless pvp that only cost me ISK. Since WH space openend up I moved in there and have had a blast ever since. Trading is also fun in highsec, and I used to do alot of drug running with hedonistic imperative and Ess and wess down in low sec.... What im saying is 0,0 SPACE is BOORING AND stale, I personaly think it sucks... Pirating in low sec is alot more fun.. and nothing is stoping you from taking this up...
MY sugestion to you is Quit looking at 0,0 alliances and BLOB warfare as some sort of HOLY GRAIL of EVE its Hype dosent live up trust me.. It mostly SUCKS...
No one said it was a con, it's just not how EvE is commonly outlined when some random newbie asks if he should give the game a shot.
I love EvE for what it is, but I myself have gone through a bitter time during my first weeks, because I literally had the feeling that the game _wanted_ me to quit. A satisfaction I would not grant this POS of code. Never regretted my choice of staying though. It does get better, just not at all as soon as some fanboys wanna make you believe.
M
why on earth would you think pirate corps would be harder to get into then nullsec corps? Also you missed FW as well. You seem focused on 0.0 corps, and throw assumptions out about the other areas of eve you didnt bother looking into. Try running a couple more of these "experiments" as a fw pilot or a pirate.
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
I'm always puzzled when I read posts like this, because the experience described is so utterly different from mine. Maybe we're just very different people or something, but when I started playing EVE, for the first few months my main feeling was that of constant amazement and excitement. Perhaps it helped that I was simply rather ignorant of what other people could do and were doing, and so I never worried about "catching up" or "being competitive".
Give me liberty or give me lasers
We definitely _are_ different people; But not on the 'being competetive' side. Though I do think that I resemble the normal PC-game-dude more than the type that is 'amazed' by the sheer complexity and the endless possibility of bla bla, you know what I'm talking about. What do I expect when I enter a game:
Connect, wooo, cooool sword, wow, cool armor, lets slice something up, bam, niiiice sound effect, look how i crushed it, yaaay, chaaarge, oh damn im dead doesnt matter, banzai, hehe, cool great fun gimme a beer....
... I am 29, have a medical doctors degree, play in the evenings and still I head for these games for exactly the two lines above. EvE doesn't have that, at all.
Back in 2005,
... When I got into EVE, I clicked the hour long tutorial away with a "yea what the fu** ever, let me play the game will ya"
- I docked off racing my newbie ship through space, had exceptionally average 2 hours of "nice backdrop", "nice planets" and "nice warp tunnel" until I realized the only real way to play would be zoom out to max, get the distance radar backdrop.
- Two days later I realized I was alomost exclusively using spreadsheet windows I didn't understand, ranging from 30% 'wtf' to 90% 'wtf'
- Two weeks later I found myself grinding missions because, well, it was the only thing that seemed straightforward "do this, come back, get something for it"...
- Two weeks and two days later i was like "the heck, this is boring like s***"... So I started my personal tradition of ranting in the newbie channel about how the game sucked and ran across a guy...
Don't get me wrong, it wasn't from day 1 after this that I found EvE suddenly appealing. And even after getting into the meat of it and learning (some) ropes and actually having fun; I still think it's a butt fugly attempt to cater to tech nerds, math-genii and failed stockbrokers. The only, and I repeat, the only reason I stayed is because its the only game on the whole market that allows you do actually have an impact on the world.
It is only unfortunate that this really genuine and in every sense of the word epic feature is buried inside a gearboxy moloch of a game for sequential thinkers and mechanophiles, barren of the capability to summon any deeper emotional bond.
M
There's no denying that EVE is all about delayed gratification. But the delay isn't necessarily quite so big as a superficial analysis might indicate.
EDIT: Also I rather liked "I still think it's a butt fugly attempt to cater to tech nerds, math-genii and failed stockbrokers." Nice! Although my favourite description of EVE went something like "Playing EVE is like being an innocent young child released alone in to a park full of pedophiles. If you're lucky and get the breaks you can eventually become one of the pedophiles"
Give me liberty or give me lasers