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Is all hope for a good sandbox MMORPG gone?
Xajar
Member Posts: 3
I have spent the last year bumping around so-so games trying to fall in love with one, with no luck so far. I do love that MMORPG.com has given me a check list to follow as I work my way down searching, however, I think I am going to come up empty handed on this journey….
I have always been fascinated with computers, and enjoy playing games on computers. I played most of the Ultima series games in the 90’s. I remember Origin Systems announcing that they were releasing an Ultima that you play online called “Ultima Online” in 1997. After buying and installing the game, I quickly created my character and was dropped right in the middle of town. I walked around, not seeing anything I was supposed to do; I simply asked “what is the object of this game”. Someone replied to me “to make a living”. Wow, what an interesting idea. I quickly found out that I could kill a dear, skin its hide, and create leather armor from it. I kept doing that, and selling the armor I didn’t use. I was able to buy a better knife, to kill the dear faster. I was able to buy a horse, which carried my leather so I could stay out longer. I bought a house, I decorated it, I created a vendor that sat on my doorstep and sold the extra furniture and armor that I had. I had neighbors, friends, and guild mates from a different part of the world. It was completely unreal the idea that I had a life inside of a game. I remember times when PK’ers killed me and took my loot, and how upset I was in RL telling my wife “you don’t understand what I just lost!” I played this game for well over 2 years.
Then in 1999 a game called Everquest was released , and it was to be an Ultima in 3D. Quickly bought the game, created a character, and for an hour just walked around this virtual 3D world. A friend from UO helped me get started, and one of the best memories was the hour long trip he took me from Qeynos to Freeport. The dangers we ran from, the canyons we climbed, the towns we went through, and the mobs we had to sneak past. It was completely awesome. I played this game for 4 years straight. I was so involved with the game that I allowed it to take part of my RL world, as I attended all the gatherings they had, and even started a business around this game by getting a license with SOE and selling apparel. Some of you old school’ers may remember RPGwear and the ever popular “got SoW?” t-shirt? Yup, my idea and I sold over 10,000 of those shirts in the history of the company. I wasn’t the only geek out there that got into gaming. It was about the community, the friends, the journeys ……
Then came a slew of other online games like SWG, WOW, etc. I can say good things about all of them, but as I look back each one of them has taken a step away from what was fun and has turned into games that are more arcade style. Remember that Capcom’s arcade game 1942 sitting inside the Circle-K? Complete chaos, bombs going off, planes flying at you, tanks shooting up. You had to destroy them all, fast, in order to land on the carrier ship and continue to the next level. Half the time you couldn’t see where you were with all the special effects going off. That is EXACTLY how I feel all the new MMO games are turning out as.
I just tried out the brand new MMORPG called Vindictus, and if you don’t believe me when I say special effects and complete Chaos, go take a look. I watched all the interviews and Nexon is saying this is the new future for MMO style games. Although the graphics are far superior to anything I have seen, the concept of sandbox is 100% gone in this game. You now start in a town, and then take a ship to the desired level of instance to fight in. Once the instance is complete, you return back to town. No more travel, no more exploring, no more meeting death on the way to your hunting ground, no more PK’er that is hiding to ambush you, and last no more crafting. To craft in this game you simple get the required ingredients and have the vendor fabricate it for you. So there is a huge farm fest to acquire the materials need to turn into the NPC.
I have never been a console player, aside the RPG ones I use to play on my Sega Genesis. I am the type of person that likes to get involved in a game that I know is long lasting, that is persistent each and every day. I don’t want a game that has an end, I want something “to do” for entertainment. I want a game that I can wrap my head around, something to look forward to for an hour or so each and every day. This isn’t a hard concept, and it’s not impossible to do in today’s demanding world. Some companies get it close, but then destroy it. Slowly one by one the idea of a sandbox mmorpg dies a slow death.
The closest mainstream game that I can come up with would be Eve Online, and perhaps after they finish Incarna expansion it may be closer. But this game allows all aspects of play to happen. If you want to PVP then you hope in your ship and go blow someone up. You want to crate then you set up labs (this could improve a ton). You want to make a living trading, you haul goods from one station to another for profit. I played this game for 2 years, and was one of the most successful bookmarking people in game (until they changed it, and I stopped playing). Call me anti-pvp, but I just wanted to make a living hauling goods and not being killed by gate pk’ers. When it all boils down on this game, you’re stuck in a ship. Your avatar is a ship, and everyone knows you by a cheesy profile pictures and a ship. How can you connect to a ship in RL? When you go to the gatherings do you dress up as the Megathron? They can completely destroy this game if they release Incarna wrong. According to rumors, you will be able to leave your ship and walk around a station. A HUGE social gathering place, and also allow your corp members to physically see a person to relate to. But, if they turn it into a PVP fighting model for ground troops to battle each other, then you lose everything. Make a peaceful colony down on a planet, allow people to create a home, farm, mine, etc. They can make a 100% living my supplying items to the pilots in space fighting. This allows you to have a sandbox game that attracts everyone’s different style of playing. I can get on and craft to my heart’s content, while my son is in space blowing ships apart, only returning asking me to repair his ship and give him a good meal.
How much do you think Linden Research, Inc makes off of Second Life? Think with today’s technology in graphics, how much better you could make this style of social environment. There are 2 million people that go to that virtual world to “socialize” to their hearts content. Why wouldn’t you incorporate some type of “social” aspect inside of a RPG game? I dare guess that 50% of the readers out there do not know the true meaning of RPG. The other half makes fun of the people in the park dressed up throwing bags of bird seed at each other.
Is it really that impossible to make a game that realistic to the point that it’s believable? Could a game be made that isn’t “convenient” to the player because it’s not easy? Heaven forbid there is a game in which you store and item inside of a town bank, and cannot pull it out of a different town bank. Wouldn’t it be crazy to travel to the blacksmith in the bad part of town to grab a new sword instead of going to the AH and bidding on it? How great it would be to have someone come up with the idea of “the home front”, where preparations are made for the warriors in the field? What good is the armor smith in town to the warrior that just got the ubber breastplate drop from the dragon? And, what is the dragon doing with a breastplate? How great it would be to have to come up with a tailored outfit that you are required to wear to the town’s festival ball. Doesn’t matter what era the game is staged at, but how believable that it could happen. Who touches a stone and is transported to a different part of the world? If you want to pick up and move to another town, grab your handcart and load it up. While pulling it ask your buddies to protect you during the journey.
Why? Why can’t games like this be out there? Am I to strange and abnormal to want something like this? If there was a game like this, I would pay $20, $30 a month for. Everyone turning to F2P is a joke, make a good game and charge for it. There has to be others like me, one’s that enjoy the slower paced life of gaming. However, it is still possible to mix it with the younger fast paced console players that want the RPG feel.
I am half temped to get 19 other people together and purchase the HeroCloud license and start creating my own. I search and I search and I cannot find anything out there that doesn’t have level progression, map stages, instances, raids, goals, etc. I have read post after post of people asking for a good sandbox MMORPG and they get the normal list of UO, EQ, SWG, EVE, mixed in with other ones they just like, but are really not true Sandbox.
I have played WOW for 4 years, and my account has all level 80 characters with maxed out crafting and exploring on every one. However, I have never been on a raid. I have never grouped with the same group more than once. I have never been in a guild outside of my own characters that I only use the guild bank as storage/sharing between them. Every piece of clothing all my characters have on them are player made. Now what am I suppose to do with WOW? Wait until they increase the level to 90? Or perhaps I should join the wow mainstream and start raiding to acquire the ubber stupid armor that you couldn’t possible physically walk in, let alone fight in.
I don’t expect anyone to have some unforeseen information on a game that has all of this and more that I have just not seen. However, I will carefully read every reply that people make to see if I am missing something in general on what is out there. Everything I have wrote here are my personal feelings, and I hope I have not offended anyone along the way. Don’t stick me in the back for my grammar; I tend to get carried away when I type.
Thanks for letting me share my thought….
Comments
Try Fallen Earth. I have just started playing it and it's amazing. I put a post in their forum on here go read it
FE is good but not sandbox. Howabout Earthrise?? Seems like 90% of what you said is in that game. No instancing, huge focous on exploring, everything is crafted, kinda realistic in that all the crazy stuff is explained through scifi mechanics, good graphics, gulds make there own towns which can be faught over, open pvp, clans fight over rescources etc. No levels or classes, just skill basedIt's basically like eve, except it's on land with third person shooter combat (with people as your avatar not a ship or anything.)
Have you tried Anarchy Online?
i think earthrise is pretty close to what you are seeking.
I would advise you look into it and i hope you find a good place, if not there then somewhere!
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Cloudsol/
Unfortunately, game companies are aiming at attracting the (admittedly much larger) casual audience. That means they go for the "theme park" approach to MMO's. There is a series (well 2 so far) of columns talking about "old vs new mmorpgs" that addresses this. Casual gamers need/want to be led by the hand through a game. They don't want a steep learning curve and don't want to have to explore. As far as folks like you, I, and most of the people who use this site, companies aren't too worried about us. We are a small portion of their target market, and they believe a decent percentage of us will buy/try their games regardless since these theme park MMO's are all that's coming out. It's like an avowed vegetarian going to a steak resturaunt and eating a crappy little salad because that's all that's available for their preferences.
The Moving Finger writes, and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.
~Omar Khayyam
I read your post and It actually made me smile, to know that i'm not the only one that feels this way. there is no immersion in MMO's anymore, its either a themepark game with the ultimate contest to see who has bigger numbers. I originally went from EQ to dark age of camelot to WoW and now EvE.
are u serious about the highlighted statement? do you have experience making a game? I am a game art generalist looking for any project I can get my hands on for the experience and something to put in my portfolio. my experience includes environment/character creation, animation, lighting, texturing and rigging.
_The Sauce Man
What sandbox list are you referring to?
This one?
Sandbox
EVE Online
Ryzom
Mortal Online
Everquest
Darkfall
Wurm
Fallen Earth
Runescape
Earthrise
Xsyon
Anarchy Online
(everquest? lol)
Have you tried Darkfall? Since I have started playing they have added a lot of content and ways to earn an income besides PVP. Treasure maps are promised in a couple weeks and fully revamped dungeons and stuff (they are already really cool but seem lacking in meaning so there is a hell of a lot they could be doing to them). PVE in this game is my favorite as well. I just love how realistic it feels compared to other games. I didn't like my first week of playing it at all and almost quit but the game sure has changed a lot since then and is much funner once you are more developed.
It is just as important to earn an income in this game as it is in EVE and there are a few different ways while they are adding more ways and scooping more sand into the box one scoop at a time. The trial sucks since the game is more like EVE in the sense that it takes a long time to figure out. It stays hard and unpredictable no matter how long you play it for because of the amount of control that other players have.
IMO Darkfall is by far the funnest MMORPG and sandbox game out there right now. I am very excited to see all this new content coming up next month and especially next year!! I like EVE a lot too but like you said it does not satisfy every need since my avatar is a ship (but the picture of me is pretty cool heh).
I wouldnt go by what MMORPG.com says or by what the trolls say . .. unfortunately you need to play the game more than the trial to really get a good feel for it. MMORPG.com gave Star Trek Online a better review than Darkfall . .. STO?!?!?? That is just wrong! lol I guess you can tell though since you can see the average user rating on the side too.
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I'm a programmer full time...but have been trying to keep the sandbox era alive at home. There's a bunch of ideas that I think can really integrate well into today's world of MMOs that also tie into yesterday's MMOs. It's just a matter of having enough resources to put it out there and get it tested. I really think a non-class system could still be really fun now adays if it's overly polished and looks professionally done. And hell, throw in achievements and challenges for people who want the numbers. But keep the core gameplay fun , entertaining, and make every aspect of the game worth playing...not just PvP and not just PvE.
P.S. On an unrelated note...I know people don't like traveling now-a-days but what was wrong with UO's rune/recall system? You can explore anywhere you want and mark a rune to it to go back instantly later. It wasn't pre-defined where you could go......it was any XY coordinate in the world! They should really put that back now adays
Disclaimer: This is not a troll post and is not here to promote any negative energy. Although this may be a criticism, it is not meant to offend anyone. If a moderator feels the post is inappropriate, please remove it immediately before it is subject to consideration for a warning. Thank you.
Not all hope is lost. What IS lost is another day minus a post like this.
Developers will come full circle and we will get another AWESOME sandbox. It will, and has, taken awhile, but it will happen.
So here, have a dancing banana!
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Yes, because the people that makes posts about how there are now “good” sandbox games are never going to be happy. When you set your mark of happiness incredibly small you will inevitably be disappointed. There are sandbox games out there and some of them can even be considered “good”.
--John Ruskin
I'm agreeing with the OP and waiting hopefully for Earthrise.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I think that the best hope is for a game that offers both themepark and sandbox elements...
Gee I wonder how that Elder Scrolls MMO is coming along...
PS: Elder Scrolls MMO and TES:V are separate games, being made by seperate branches of Zenimax (Bethesda Game Studios for TES:V and Zenimax Online for TES MMO)
Norn are Norn, we have no need of Signatures!
Casual players don't want to be held by the hand....
They just don't want to grind for 7 hours to get that leet material so they can go spend another 5 hours making it.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
"asking for a good sandbox" --
Unfortunately, the only answers we can give are the best options available. I think many would agree with you that there is a serious drought going on.
"to see if I am missing something" --
I don't think you're missing anything. I've been looking for a long time, and I think other people have as well. The game just doesn't exist yet.
World of darkness online will be the return of the sandbox games.
It is well funded and have a good crew (CCP and White wolf), not some small inexperienced indie crew but some of the best from pen and paper RPGs together with CCPs experience.
But it might be a while before the game is out.
My beef with sandbox mmo is that there is no direction you have to make you're own fun. If I wanted to do that I would go outside not play a video game.
I don't care about innovation I care about fun.
Well there are two games that are available to play right now that I would consider to be sandbox. Dawntide and Aerrevan. They are both in the early stages, although Dawntide is in open beta and Aerrevan is in "closed beta" (it's pretty easy to get in).
http://www.onrpg.com/MMO/event/Aerrevan-Closed-Beta-Key-Give-Away (853 keys remaining as of this post).
Like I said, they are both very early. Dawntide has made some bast improvements just recently, so it's getting a lot better. Check one or both of these out.
World of Darkness looks so far down the pipeline that I can't even stand the thought of looking forward to it, to the point where I keep forgetting about it. I lack the patience to wait for this one, especially since I played the White Wolf dice and paper system and loved the hell out of it. I'm going back to forgetting it exists again, at least until it's much, much closer to release!
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
I think as ppl have said, it is a mix of coming back full circle, and including the best of theme-park and sandbox as they move closer to the other. Bit vague, but it might be a while before this happens.
The essence of a really great game at least for my tastes, is the sort of experience that feels "free-flowing". This is what I would like to experience in a Sandbox MMO.
The OP does a great job of evocatively describing this in the early part of the post.
"...and one of the best memories was the hour long trip he took me from Qeynos to Freeport. The dangers we ran from, the canyons we climbed, the towns we went through, and the mobs we had to sneak past. It was completely awesome."
But I think for their taste, veers too far towards wanting a substitute for RL?
"Is it really that impossible to make a game that realistic to the point that it’s believable? Could a game be made that isn’t “convenient”
But this nails a part of it:
"There has to be others like me, one’s that enjoy the slower paced life of gaming."
At least for me, where there is that free-flowing interaction and slow grow of things, that as design philosophy would be a place to start for a sandbox MMO imo. Added to that the inclusion of a destructable environment or open-world pvp to breathe life into the world.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Neocron was my personal sandbox favorite and always will be. Played it every single day for 2 years straight (that's when neocron 2 ruined everything).
Also I think everyone forgets about shadowbane because it was such a short-lived game but I think it was a lot of fun. Had some really cool PvP elements.
Dare I say that FFXI and FFXIV are sandbox games? They require the player to figure a lot out on their own and in FFXI there is so much to do.
I would say that hope isn't lost for a good sandbox game. Just keep an eye out for games like Earthrise(which sounds awesome btw).
I think the atricle on this site sums up a lot of what has been lost in games recently.
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/4547/General-Fighting-Talk-New-vs-Old-MMOs.html
It might be just my old age setting in (turn 34 this month), but I miss everything from people yelling trains to actually having to build up relationships with other players in order to get almost anything done. Let's not forget that the second the M's stand for massively multiplayer. Where is the sense of community now-a-days? It's gotten so bad in WoW that you don't even have to talk to anyone to get in a group. You just click a button and you're in a queue. And when you're done it pops you right back in the world where you left.
There is no longer any sense of wonder or mystique in these games. You don't have to travel to get anywhere. I personally miss the 4+ hour dungeons. Am I gald that there are instances that you can complete in 45inutes? Hell yes. But I wish I had the option to play the old school way. Remember when WoW was hard? Hell, if you play Lotro when it came out you know it was impossible to do the storyline alone after a certain point. Now, it's so easy it's a joke.
There is no sense of accomplishment when you do things in an MMO anymore. And the worst part is that the developers seem to be actively trying to move away from this. They dumb it down to the lowest common denominator because for the most part it's working and they are making money.
There are good sandbox games on the market right now. Good is a relative term though, so whats good to one person may not be good to the other.
For me, I like Sci-Fi settings, fast paced combat, gurps/rifts style char building that prevents some abominable omni-char who is max'd out everything, and consensual/incentivized PvP. For me, Fallen Earth fits these.
For someone else, they may want FFA-PvP, high fantasy war-mages who've learned it all, literally storming someone elses castle. For those people, they've probably played Darkfall or MO to see if it fits what they're after.
There should never be one single answer or one single game. At this point, there are enough games out where people have a good chance at finding/playing the kind of game they want to play. It doesn't have to be for everyone, and it definitely shouldn't be some absolutist-answer of a game.
Honestly, how sandbox is it to make some rigid list of requirements for "Must be this, this this this this exactly or its not sandbox"?
That's not sandbox at all.
Lets Push Things Forward
I knew I would live to design games at age 7, issue 5 of Nintendo Power.
Support games with subs when you believe in their potential, even in spite of their flaws.
Check out Uncharted Waters Online. Lots of exploring, more slow paced gameplay and a great community! Comes out in the end of the month. Its not your typical mmorpg and it might be something for you.