World of Darkness looks so far down the pipeline that I can't even stand the thought of looking forward to it, to the point where I keep forgetting about it. I lack the patience to wait for this one, especially since I played the White Wolf dice and paper system and loved the hell out of it. I'm going back to forgetting it exists again, at least until it's much, much closer to release!
Well, 2012 or 2013 seems possibly dates but the official launch time was set on Q4 2011 and I never heard anything against that so it is still possible.
I am also a old Vampire and Mage player.
To be honest is this the only sandbox game right now I am looking forward too, the rest I heard about seems rather crappy.
World of Darkness looks so far down the pipeline that I can't even stand the thought of looking forward to it, to the point where I keep forgetting about it. I lack the patience to wait for this one, especially since I played the White Wolf dice and paper system and loved the hell out of it. I'm going back to forgetting it exists again, at least until it's much, much closer to release!
Well, 2012 or 2013 seems possibly dates but the official launch time was set on Q4 2011 and I never heard anything against that so it is still possible.
I am also a old Vampire and Mage player.
To be honest is this the only sandbox game right now I am looking forward too, the rest I heard about seems rather crappy.
Werewolf was by far my favorite to roleplay, but our GM just threw all the books together and let us be whatever. Although this often led to us killing each other before we ever got started. Which was, come to think of it, quite entertaining.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
When I first looked at the OP post I must admit I sighed at the length of text on the screen. However it was a topic I am quite passionate about and thought I would give it a go. I am so glad I did and to the OP I hereby salute you sir.
Never has a post hit the nail on the head more than this one and I would just like to say "YOU ARE DEFINATELY NOT ALONE"!!! I used to play SWG all the time during it's glory days before the CU. I, like you, were not interested in levelling, or gearing up or killing everything that moved simply for a green drop, I wanted something much more. I wanted to live in the Star Wars Universe.
SWG, at the time, allowed me to do this. I had a shop, a weaponsmith shop to be more precise. Heck I even called it 'Universal Weapons Emporium' and it was awesome. I had many customers and grew to have a reputation for creating great weapons, we chatted (in roleplay) about the universe, the war and how things were going. I even had a waiting area in my shop where people waited while I produced their product. Probably one of my best moments was standing next to my crafting station and seeing about 7 or 8 people in my shop all talking together about different things (in roleplay) and each waiting for their product. It was great!!!
Sometimes I would even head to Coruscant and sit outside the spaceport. You had doctors selling their buffs, people selling their wares, huge queues at the space port to board the ship that used to arrive every 10 minutes. It truelly felt like a real world and I was living in it.
Then the CU hit and everyone started to leave the game, it was still ok for a while and then the NGE hit and that was it. Nobody was around anymore and I left the game shortly afterwards. I know SWG had it's problems but to me it was a true MMORPG and it was a real virtual world. You could jump on a speeder point it in one direction and then just head out in the middle of no where if you chose. The game is a shadow of it's former self.
All MMORPG's or rather MMO's now are just about killing this to get that and then moving on to get the next piece of loot. The player base now seems to just want instant results with everything, no travelling, no waiting, no atmosphere lets just group, kill the thing and get the loot. They have no depth, no substance and the crafting is completely flat and pointless. It is truelly a sad state of affairs that there is nothing out there that even comes close to what I once loved. The ones that seem to be pointing in that direction are usually under funded, poorly developed and just don't have the resources to be made into anything like a true sandbox should be.
If anyone does manage to get the ball rolling here and start developing their own MMORPG sandbox than I wish you the best of luck. I have some ideas of how I would like it to work, I have no technical expertise but do have ideas. All the best!!!
You yearn for the social interaction, exploring and 'earning a living' and miss having 'no more PK'er that is hiding to ambush you' and yet your problems with EVE are pvp and the fact you are a ship? Incarna will not make EVE more of a sandbox, it will simply add 'human' avatars. I've played mmo's since the good old days to and what my online avatar looks like is the least of my worries in regards to what makes a good mmo.
Your post has it's merits OP, but deploring the lack of sandboxes and then saying you don't have an interest in pvp or more importantly (that you don't seem to want others to have ffa pvp) seems something of an oxymoron. There are sandbox games out there that are very good and/or have alot of promise; EVE and Darkfall spring to mind. That they do not appeal to you in that they have ship avatars or FFA pvp doesn't lessen them as sandboxes in any way, it just means that they don't appeal to you personally.
If UO was re released again today (pre Trammel ofc), then it would end up in much the same way as DF is now. It will attract a large pvp crowd because they are the ones attracted to sandboxes and anything goes combat. Back in the day UO had little competition and as such the mix of pvpers to pvers was more diluted as everyone congregated there, not just the pvpers.
I for one can't imagine anything more boring than a sandbox without ffa full loot pvp, whats the point in exploring if there is no risk?
So, there are good sanboxes out there, but they will remain niche for the foreseeable future as the major money is pumped into themeparks which is what the casual generation of gamers (alas) wants.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
many thanks for sharing your thoughts with us, xajar. but sadly i can add only one more game to the list besides the few which are named before: istaria - chronicles of the gifted. a very old game, sure with some weaknesses, but a great community and one of the best crafting and 'housing'-systems ever. link
for the future we can't expect that the big players in the gaming industry will fall back and spend money into complex sandbox games. too sweet are the buisness-reports about all the f2p games. we can only hope that independent companies will step up and take this challenge with f.e. earthrise or world of darkness.
besides: if the rumors does have a little bit of truth in it, ccp will add a 3rd person mmorpg to the eve universum. 'station walking' is only the beginning and - as far as i know - is based on the same engine like their world of darkness. so the conclusion that ccp will take this engine to get the pilots out of their ships down on a planet is not so far away. but, as i said, only rumors.
I am half temped to get 19 other people together and purchase the HeroCloud license and start creating my own. I search and I search and I cannot find anything out there that doesn’t have level progression, map stages, instances, raids, goals, etc. I have read post after post of people asking for a good sandbox MMORPG and they get the normal list of UO, EQ, SWG, EVE, mixed in with other ones they just like, but are really not true Sandbox.
I have played WOW for 4 years, and my account has all level 80 characters with maxed out crafting and exploring on every one. However, I have never been on a raid. I have never grouped with the same group more than once. I have never been in a guild outside of my own characters that I only use the guild bank as storage/sharing between them. Every piece of clothing all my characters have on them are player made. Now what am I suppose to do with WOW? Wait until they increase the level to 90? Or perhaps I should join the wow mainstream and start raiding to acquire the ubber stupid armor that you couldn’t possible physically walk in, let alone fight in.
I don’t expect anyone to have some unforeseen information on a game that has all of this and more that I have just not seen. However, I will carefully read every reply that people make to see if I am missing something in general on what is out there. Everything I have wrote here are my personal feelings, and I hope I have not offended anyone along the way. Don’t stick me in the back for my grammar; I tend to get carried away when I type.
Thanks for letting me share my thought….
I read your post and It actually made me smile, to know that i'm not the only one that feels this way. there is no immersion in MMO's anymore, its either a themepark game with the ultimate contest to see who has bigger numbers. I originally went from EQ to dark age of camelot to WoW and now EvE.
are u serious about the highlighted statement? do you have experience making a game? I am a game art generalist looking for any project I can get my hands on for the experience and something to put in my portfolio. my experience includes environment/character creation, animation, lighting, texturing and rigging.
I'm a programmer full time...but have been trying to keep the sandbox era alive at home. There's a bunch of ideas that I think can really integrate well into today's world of MMOs that also tie into yesterday's MMOs. It's just a matter of having enough resources to put it out there and get it tested. I really think a non-class system could still be really fun now adays if it's overly polished and looks professionally done. And hell, throw in achievements and challenges for people who want the numbers. But keep the core gameplay fun , entertaining, and make every aspect of the game worth playing...not just PvP and not just PvE.
P.S. On an unrelated note...I know people don't like traveling now-a-days but what was wrong with UO's rune/recall system? You can explore anywhere you want and mark a rune to it to go back instantly later. It wasn't pre-defined where you could go......it was any XY coordinate in the world! They should really put that back now adays
I love UO's rune marking system. The need to travel there first, to mark a rune, then share the rune with others if you want, or sell it. Guild houses with rune stones in them for guild use. Players marking runes to other player's places to use their runes, gate travel. It felt "realistic" in a fantasy way, yet offered the ease that many players need to play with their friends.
If I were making a game (if only I had something to offer!), I'd have this in there.
Xsyon is promised to have everything you are looking for. Realistic world, a bear would never drop a weapon or shield or even money, everything is crafted by players, no instances, player housing and player built towns, no classes, you can learn and train more than 50 skills. The game is in beta now, not all of the features are implemented yet, but its definitely getting better with every updates. It is exactly about that you mentioned...to make a living in a game.
Check it out if you like, and again, the game is in beta and far from being finished, tribe (guild) features and hopefully construction are coming soon with the next update in like 1-2 weeks.
Sorry Xajar but OP is way too long for a theme park audience. By the second paragraph they would be wondering why they had not made a level yet.
Other posters have listed the best of the sandbox MMO’s, hopefully you find sanctuary there. As always I would recomend a P2P or hybrid revenue model MMO not F2P.
Thanks for all your comments and ideas. I am currently looking at some of the games others have listed that I have not played. I have played almost every main stream game out there, and my wife laughs at me because I have a shelf with every game that I have bought lined up in order that I bought/played. Sadly, all I see is the $ signs now
To clear up some comments:
PVP - I am not against PVP, I just dont care to do PVP. PVP has to be part of the game system, otherwise there is no risk. That is what was fun about UO, trying to hid your items under other items in your bag so theives didnt peek in there and steal. Or running around with only what you had to have, in case you died. Keeping an extra set of armor in the bank for when you did die. For keeping your rune stones inside the bank for your house, so theives wouldnt gain access. That is also the driving force behind EVE, if it wasnt for PVP I wouldnt have made that first bookmark 1500m past the gate. It was the risk that made it fun, and it was the frustration of the PK'er when they couldnt kill me, I loved it. BUT ... what is the reward for PVP in todays world? Do you get to loot the corpse? Do you get the coin they are carring? Does the foe have to do a corpse run? Or, is the reward a metal that once you have 10,000 you can turn in for a ubber orange armor? Bring back the /corpsedrag
STONES - When I said "touch a stone and transport" I was not refering to UO Rune Stones, I was refering to what EQ did in the expansions that basically did away with porting from druids. They created a hub that allowed you to travel to any part of the world within seconds, no more 2 hour newbie run from Qeynos to Freeport. I have to give it to WOW for at least putting you on a bird or tram.
AVATAR - If you were going to get involved in a game to the point where you feel as if it was real, then how can you make that tie to a ship? If you want to "dress up", do you get a new paint job on your ship? (not a bad idea btw). People relate to people in a sence that they say "this could have been me back int he 16th century" or whatever. So what better pat on the back then to display that new chestplate armor then to throw it on and strut around town? On a ship, you get a new weapon and go blow up some newbie miner? Also, other cannot see your accomplishments unless you upgrade your entire image (ship).
I think the comments here have been awsome, and I have enjoyed reading what everyone has to say. I really give hope that there will be a full circle that comes around, and that games like the days of old will come back. I just hope that I will still have the eyesight to focus on the screen
Yes, because the people that makes posts about how there are now “good” sandbox games are never going to be happy. When you set your mark of happiness incredibly small you will inevitably be disappointed. There are sandbox games out there and some of them can even be considered “good”.
This statement is completely wrong. How can you say that people who want sandbox games will never be satisfied when there has not been a SINGLE AAA sandbox game released in like 8 years or so? The only sandbox games released in recent history have been from indie companies that lack funding and have 8-9 year development cycles.
These games are usually lacking in features, and it's extremely obvious that they were developed by a indie company. All we want is an AAA sandbox title developed by a well-known and competent developer like UO was.
Have you guys actually tried to modify a game engine to your demands?
Lots of emulator software out there and with some effort you can put out interesting things.
Especially UO, though it has old graphics, can be adapted to satisfy almost any playstyle.
I've actually done as you suggested last year. I modified my own UO shard and hosted it. It wasn't very successful because I got drawn away by some other projects (I didn't like the idea of having success off of someone else's game client). The key that I think made my server fun was that I gave it the old PvP style people were looking for, but at the same time I ramped up the rewards for PvE pretty significantly. On top of that, I introduced customized crafting with things such as flaming arrows and exploding arrows that could do a lot of damage to monsters/animals. When you shoot a player with those arrows guess what happened? Nothing but base damage. I think someone else made a good point...a hybrid approach to attract the themepark gamers into a world that allows PvP (but not imbalance them) could work.
I also want to mention that "old games" and "sandobox" doesn't necessarily equal more grind or longer hours than themepark. I think it's possible to polish a game, hold the players hand, and still deliver enough content and rewards but not be cookie cutter. It just takes some unique ideas and implementations.
Disclaimer: This is not a troll post and is not here to promote any negative energy. Although this may be a criticism, it is not meant to offend anyone. If a moderator feels the post is inappropriate, please remove it immediately before it is subject to consideration for a warning. Thank you.
Comments
Well, 2012 or 2013 seems possibly dates but the official launch time was set on Q4 2011 and I never heard anything against that so it is still possible.
I am also a old Vampire and Mage player.
To be honest is this the only sandbox game right now I am looking forward too, the rest I heard about seems rather crappy.
Werewolf was by far my favorite to roleplay, but our GM just threw all the books together and let us be whatever. Although this often led to us killing each other before we ever got started. Which was, come to think of it, quite entertaining.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
When I first looked at the OP post I must admit I sighed at the length of text on the screen. However it was a topic I am quite passionate about and thought I would give it a go. I am so glad I did and to the OP I hereby salute you sir.
Never has a post hit the nail on the head more than this one and I would just like to say "YOU ARE DEFINATELY NOT ALONE"!!! I used to play SWG all the time during it's glory days before the CU. I, like you, were not interested in levelling, or gearing up or killing everything that moved simply for a green drop, I wanted something much more. I wanted to live in the Star Wars Universe.
SWG, at the time, allowed me to do this. I had a shop, a weaponsmith shop to be more precise. Heck I even called it 'Universal Weapons Emporium' and it was awesome. I had many customers and grew to have a reputation for creating great weapons, we chatted (in roleplay) about the universe, the war and how things were going. I even had a waiting area in my shop where people waited while I produced their product. Probably one of my best moments was standing next to my crafting station and seeing about 7 or 8 people in my shop all talking together about different things (in roleplay) and each waiting for their product. It was great!!!
Sometimes I would even head to Coruscant and sit outside the spaceport. You had doctors selling their buffs, people selling their wares, huge queues at the space port to board the ship that used to arrive every 10 minutes. It truelly felt like a real world and I was living in it.
Then the CU hit and everyone started to leave the game, it was still ok for a while and then the NGE hit and that was it. Nobody was around anymore and I left the game shortly afterwards. I know SWG had it's problems but to me it was a true MMORPG and it was a real virtual world. You could jump on a speeder point it in one direction and then just head out in the middle of no where if you chose. The game is a shadow of it's former self.
All MMORPG's or rather MMO's now are just about killing this to get that and then moving on to get the next piece of loot. The player base now seems to just want instant results with everything, no travelling, no waiting, no atmosphere lets just group, kill the thing and get the loot. They have no depth, no substance and the crafting is completely flat and pointless. It is truelly a sad state of affairs that there is nothing out there that even comes close to what I once loved. The ones that seem to be pointing in that direction are usually under funded, poorly developed and just don't have the resources to be made into anything like a true sandbox should be.
If anyone does manage to get the ball rolling here and start developing their own MMORPG sandbox than I wish you the best of luck. I have some ideas of how I would like it to work, I have no technical expertise but do have ideas. All the best!!!
You yearn for the social interaction, exploring and 'earning a living' and miss having 'no more PK'er that is hiding to ambush you' and yet your problems with EVE are pvp and the fact you are a ship? Incarna will not make EVE more of a sandbox, it will simply add 'human' avatars. I've played mmo's since the good old days to and what my online avatar looks like is the least of my worries in regards to what makes a good mmo.
Your post has it's merits OP, but deploring the lack of sandboxes and then saying you don't have an interest in pvp or more importantly (that you don't seem to want others to have ffa pvp) seems something of an oxymoron. There are sandbox games out there that are very good and/or have alot of promise; EVE and Darkfall spring to mind. That they do not appeal to you in that they have ship avatars or FFA pvp doesn't lessen them as sandboxes in any way, it just means that they don't appeal to you personally.
If UO was re released again today (pre Trammel ofc), then it would end up in much the same way as DF is now. It will attract a large pvp crowd because they are the ones attracted to sandboxes and anything goes combat. Back in the day UO had little competition and as such the mix of pvpers to pvers was more diluted as everyone congregated there, not just the pvpers.
I for one can't imagine anything more boring than a sandbox without ffa full loot pvp, whats the point in exploring if there is no risk?
So, there are good sanboxes out there, but they will remain niche for the foreseeable future as the major money is pumped into themeparks which is what the casual generation of gamers (alas) wants.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
A pve sandbox? Play Ryzom, Fallen Earth or even Eve strictly in high sec.
Earthrise will have a secure playing area also.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
many thanks for sharing your thoughts with us, xajar. but sadly i can add only one more game to the list besides the few which are named before: istaria - chronicles of the gifted. a very old game, sure with some weaknesses, but a great community and one of the best crafting and 'housing'-systems ever. link
for the future we can't expect that the big players in the gaming industry will fall back and spend money into complex sandbox games. too sweet are the buisness-reports about all the f2p games. we can only hope that independent companies will step up and take this challenge with f.e. earthrise or world of darkness.
besides: if the rumors does have a little bit of truth in it, ccp will add a 3rd person mmorpg to the eve universum. 'station walking' is only the beginning and - as far as i know - is based on the same engine like their world of darkness. so the conclusion that ccp will take this engine to get the pilots out of their ships down on a planet is not so far away. but, as i said, only rumors.
I love UO's rune marking system. The need to travel there first, to mark a rune, then share the rune with others if you want, or sell it. Guild houses with rune stones in them for guild use. Players marking runes to other player's places to use their runes, gate travel. It felt "realistic" in a fantasy way, yet offered the ease that many players need to play with their friends.
If I were making a game (if only I had something to offer!), I'd have this in there.
Once upon a time....
To the OP:
Xsyon is promised to have everything you are looking for. Realistic world, a bear would never drop a weapon or shield or even money, everything is crafted by players, no instances, player housing and player built towns, no classes, you can learn and train more than 50 skills. The game is in beta now, not all of the features are implemented yet, but its definitely getting better with every updates. It is exactly about that you mentioned...to make a living in a game.
Check it out if you like, and again, the game is in beta and far from being finished, tribe (guild) features and hopefully construction are coming soon with the next update in like 1-2 weeks.
You can find it at xsyon.com .
Sorry Xajar but OP is way too long for a theme park audience. By the second paragraph they would be wondering why they had not made a level yet.
Other posters have listed the best of the sandbox MMO’s, hopefully you find sanctuary there. As always I would recomend a P2P or hybrid revenue model MMO not F2P.
Thanks for all your comments and ideas. I am currently looking at some of the games others have listed that I have not played. I have played almost every main stream game out there, and my wife laughs at me because I have a shelf with every game that I have bought lined up in order that I bought/played. Sadly, all I see is the $ signs now
To clear up some comments:
PVP - I am not against PVP, I just dont care to do PVP. PVP has to be part of the game system, otherwise there is no risk. That is what was fun about UO, trying to hid your items under other items in your bag so theives didnt peek in there and steal. Or running around with only what you had to have, in case you died. Keeping an extra set of armor in the bank for when you did die. For keeping your rune stones inside the bank for your house, so theives wouldnt gain access. That is also the driving force behind EVE, if it wasnt for PVP I wouldnt have made that first bookmark 1500m past the gate. It was the risk that made it fun, and it was the frustration of the PK'er when they couldnt kill me, I loved it. BUT ... what is the reward for PVP in todays world? Do you get to loot the corpse? Do you get the coin they are carring? Does the foe have to do a corpse run? Or, is the reward a metal that once you have 10,000 you can turn in for a ubber orange armor? Bring back the /corpsedrag
STONES - When I said "touch a stone and transport" I was not refering to UO Rune Stones, I was refering to what EQ did in the expansions that basically did away with porting from druids. They created a hub that allowed you to travel to any part of the world within seconds, no more 2 hour newbie run from Qeynos to Freeport. I have to give it to WOW for at least putting you on a bird or tram.
AVATAR - If you were going to get involved in a game to the point where you feel as if it was real, then how can you make that tie to a ship? If you want to "dress up", do you get a new paint job on your ship? (not a bad idea btw). People relate to people in a sence that they say "this could have been me back int he 16th century" or whatever. So what better pat on the back then to display that new chestplate armor then to throw it on and strut around town? On a ship, you get a new weapon and go blow up some newbie miner? Also, other cannot see your accomplishments unless you upgrade your entire image (ship).
I think the comments here have been awsome, and I have enjoyed reading what everyone has to say. I really give hope that there will be a full circle that comes around, and that games like the days of old will come back. I just hope that I will still have the eyesight to focus on the screen
More comments welcome!
Have you guys actually tried to modify a game engine to your demands?
Lots of emulator software out there and with some effort you can put out interesting things.
Especially UO, though it has old graphics, can be adapted to satisfy almost any playstyle.
This statement is completely wrong. How can you say that people who want sandbox games will never be satisfied when there has not been a SINGLE AAA sandbox game released in like 8 years or so? The only sandbox games released in recent history have been from indie companies that lack funding and have 8-9 year development cycles.
These games are usually lacking in features, and it's extremely obvious that they were developed by a indie company. All we want is an AAA sandbox title developed by a well-known and competent developer like UO was.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I've actually done as you suggested last year. I modified my own UO shard and hosted it. It wasn't very successful because I got drawn away by some other projects (I didn't like the idea of having success off of someone else's game client). The key that I think made my server fun was that I gave it the old PvP style people were looking for, but at the same time I ramped up the rewards for PvE pretty significantly. On top of that, I introduced customized crafting with things such as flaming arrows and exploding arrows that could do a lot of damage to monsters/animals. When you shoot a player with those arrows guess what happened? Nothing but base damage. I think someone else made a good point...a hybrid approach to attract the themepark gamers into a world that allows PvP (but not imbalance them) could work.
I also want to mention that "old games" and "sandobox" doesn't necessarily equal more grind or longer hours than themepark. I think it's possible to polish a game, hold the players hand, and still deliver enough content and rewards but not be cookie cutter. It just takes some unique ideas and implementations.
Disclaimer: This is not a troll post and is not here to promote any negative energy. Although this may be a criticism, it is not meant to offend anyone. If a moderator feels the post is inappropriate, please remove it immediately before it is subject to consideration for a warning. Thank you.