Speaking of torrenting I'll admit I do it myself, I'm not going to claim it's okay to do so nor do I think it's my right, for me personally it's the fact I don't think any single-player only game is worth the full price tag they put on all new games. I torrented both Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Origins, I loved both games but still since I beat them the one time I've had no desire to go back and play them again... and that there is the only reason I decided to torrent said games instead of buy them. Was I wrong to do so? Sure, but I did save myself 60 bucks per game.
I recently just torrented Civilzation V and I love the game, and because it has multiplayer I'll be buying it shortly. That one key thing I always look for in a game is multiplayer because it adds so many more hours of enjoyment to a title, plus I'm a social gamer.
I don't expect anyone to believe me in the fact I do buy some of the games I've torrented, I just want you to try and see through my eyes on the matter. I'm a student and can't afford to buy all the great games that come out, for that reason I focus on buying the multiplayer games like Starcraft II and soon Civilization V.
For the record it's rare for me to try and torrent a game I know is mostly played online.
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There are exceptions to my rule in regards to single player games, the Elder Scrolls series for example. Why? Because of the endless time you can spend in said games, games like Mass Effect 2 and even Dragon Age Origins simply felt very confined, they did not have the same replay value I'd place on Oblivion or even the older Morrowind.
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Take from this what you will, call me a pirate or a thief and I won't really care. Feel free to comment if you like.
Well, I have had a discussion with several CM's over at the Official SWTOR site concerning a comment I made about some gaming news a while back, which I recieved a warning for. Here is their stance:
Discussion, posting, or conversing openly or during any testing phase, on the forums, or on any official or affiliated bioware site of illegal or questionable software circumvention practices or material is a totally bannable offense. They have a zero tolerance for anything approaching an nda violation or behavior that might encourage afore mentioned behaviors. In the beta agreement it flat out says, we have and reserve the right to remove you from beta at anytime not limited to forum, beta, bioware web, biofeed, or any affiliated account with no notice or explination.
In short, if you ONLY got banned for beta. You're lucky. They technically can ban your forum account, bioware account, and all previously purchased actived bioware cd keys if you even have a dream about doing, saying, or posting anything contrary to their posted stance. The mmo divison of videogaming is estimating over 1.24 BILLION in revenue this year alone. Videogaming in general is a 10billion a year industry. Just because these guys are gamers doesnt mean people are not out to get every bit of info to use for itself and push the cometition into the ground. With SWTOR dev costs approaching 200million this is serious serious money. Countries have been overthrown for less.
Remember warhammer? The tome of knowledge and the achievement system and all the rampant beta violations? 1 week after war launched Blizzard launched their "Achievement system" which was a major detractor from war's overall appeal. These companies will beg, borrow, steal, rob and violate the shit out of each other to gain an advantage any way possible. SWTOR has been pushing story story story, choice matters, chaning a persistant world. Any coincidence Guildwars 2's new market campaign is focusing on the same line, spouting the same party-line? IMO no, no coincidence at all. It's a cut throat business. I'm sorry you lost your privelage of playing in the beta, but honestly, you deserved it. We are all responsible for the things that come out of our own mouths. All they did was hold you responsible, and imo, appropriately. I personally would have completely banned you from the game and forum. If you put 5+ years of a man/companies work in jeapordy by recklessly running off at the mouth, no matter how innocent or nonmalicious the intent was. BioWare has, had, and most likely always will have 1 repeated mantra: CHOICE MATTERS. You made yours, They made theirs. Sorry again for the loss, but as someone who has followed this game since it was a rumor, and would sell his soul for a chance to test and play, and give anything to help this game be everything that it has the potential to be, I cannot blame them at all. Hope to see you ingame and let me finish by saying although I despise the concept of piracy, i respect your humility and owning up to the choice you made and the reprecussions you endured. I hope to see you ingame when it goes live. Cheers to you.
Well, I have had a discussion with several CM's over at the Official SWTOR site concerning a comment I made about some gaming news a while back, which I recieved a warning for. Here is their stance:
Discussion, posting, or conversing openly or during any testing phase, on the forums, or on any official or affiliated bioware site of illegal or questionable software circumvention practices or material is a totally bannable offense. They have a zero tolerance for anything approaching an nda violation or behavior that might encourage afore mentioned behaviors. In the beta agreement it flat out says, we have and reserve the right to remove you from beta at anytime not limited to forum, beta, bioware web, biofeed, or any affiliated account with no notice or explination.
In short, if you ONLY got banned for beta. You're lucky. They technically can ban your forum account, bioware account, and all previously purchased actived bioware cd keys if you even have a dream about doing, saying, or posting anything contrary to their posted stance. The mmo divison of videogaming is estimating over 1.24 BILLION in revenue this year alone. Videogaming in general is a 10billion a year industry. Just because these guys are gamers doesnt mean people are not out to get every bit of info to use for itself and push the cometition into the ground. With SWTOR dev costs approaching 200million this is serious serious money. Countries have been overthrown for less.
Remember warhammer? The tome of knowledge and the achievement system and all the rampant beta violations? 1 week after war launched Blizzard launched their "Achievement system" which was a major detractor from war's overall appeal. These companies will beg, borrow, steal, rob and violate the shit out of each other to gain an advantage any way possible. SWTOR has been pushing story story story, choice matters, chaning a persistant world. Any coincidence Guildwars 2's new market campaign is focusing on the same line, spouting the same party-line? IMO no, no coincidence at all. It's a cut throat business. I'm sorry you lost your privelage of playing in the beta, but honestly, you deserved it. We are all responsible for the things that come out of our own mouths. All they did was hold you responsible, and imo, appropriately. I personally would have completely banned you from the game and forum. If you put 5+ years of a man/companies work in jeapordy by recklessly running off at the mouth, no matter how innocent or nonmalicious the intent was. BioWare has, had, and most likely always will have 1 repeated mantra: CHOICE MATTERS. You made yours, They made theirs. Sorry again for the loss, but as someone who has followed this game since it was a rumor, and would sell his soul for a chance to test and play, and give anything to help this game be everything that it has the potential to be, I cannot blame them at all. Hope to see you ingame and let me finish by saying although I despise the concept of piracy, i respect your humility and owning up to the choice you made and the reprecussions you endured. I hope to see you ingame when it goes live. Cheers to you.
I couldnt read that whole thing, sorry wall of text took out of one of my eyes, and thats where I draw the line!
But I read most of it, and I cant help but think a solution would be full time paid beta testers. I am an honest person, and if I was playing in a closed (atm) beta, I wouldnt want to break the rules. However if a personal friend asked me what the game was like, I would probably tell them.
But the moment, my "Livelihood" is involved.....my lips are sealed. I dont care if my grandmother on her death bed wants to know about the game, sorry grams.
I know these companies already use paid beta testers, I think they should use a WHOLE lot more.
Sorry but I don't agree with beta testers being banned for exploits. In fact they should be exploiting so these problems can be fixed before the game goes live.
True Neutral Half-Elf Ranger Mage Follower Of Silvanus
Well, I have had a discussion with several CM's over at the Official SWTOR site concerning a comment I made about some gaming news a while back, which I recieved a warning for. Here is their stance:
Discussion, posting, or conversing openly or during any testing phase, on the forums, or on any official or affiliated bioware site of illegal or questionable software circumvention practices or material is a totally bannable offense. They have a zero tolerance for anything approaching an nda violation or behavior that might encourage afore mentioned behaviors. In the beta agreement it flat out says, we have and reserve the right to remove you from beta at anytime not limited to forum, beta, bioware web, biofeed, or any affiliated account with no notice or explination.
In short, if you ONLY got banned for beta. You're lucky. They technically can ban your forum account, bioware account, and all previously purchased actived bioware cd keys if you even have a dream about doing, saying, or posting anything contrary to their posted stance. The mmo divison of videogaming is estimating over 1.24 BILLION in revenue this year alone. Videogaming in general is a 10billion a year industry. Just because these guys are gamers doesnt mean people are not out to get every bit of info to use for itself and push the cometition into the ground. With SWTOR dev costs approaching 200million this is serious serious money. Countries have been overthrown for less.
Remember warhammer? The tome of knowledge and the achievement system and all the rampant beta violations? 1 week after war launched Blizzard launched their "Achievement system" which was a major detractor from war's overall appeal. These companies will beg, borrow, steal, rob and violate the shit out of each other to gain an advantage any way possible. SWTOR has been pushing story story story, choice matters, chaning a persistant world. Any coincidence Guildwars 2's new market campaign is focusing on the same line, spouting the same party-line? IMO no, no coincidence at all. It's a cut throat business. I'm sorry you lost your privelage of playing in the beta, but honestly, you deserved it. We are all responsible for the things that come out of our own mouths. All they did was hold you responsible, and imo, appropriately. I personally would have completely banned you from the game and forum. If you put 5+ years of a man/companies work in jeapordy by recklessly running off at the mouth, no matter how innocent or nonmalicious the intent was. BioWare has, had, and most likely always will have 1 repeated mantra: CHOICE MATTERS. You made yours, They made theirs. Sorry again for the loss, but as someone who has followed this game since it was a rumor, and would sell his soul for a chance to test and play, and give anything to help this game be everything that it has the potential to be, I cannot blame them at all. Hope to see you ingame and let me finish by saying although I despise the concept of piracy, i respect your humility and owning up to the choice you made and the reprecussions you endured. I hope to see you ingame when it goes live. Cheers to you.
I agree with everything you said other than the personal opinion on his ban, i have none and can only refer to the T & Cs, they are there to be abided by. Also your stance on Piracy, i don't have the same stance as i see it as a means to and end, ie the companies should learn more from it in regard to offline games/DLC. They realy could make more bucks if they took a few leafs from that book ingested and incorporated them. 10 years from now things will be completely different on the retail side due to piracy, and i don't mean more crappy DRM but rather them learning how to distribute to the masses at more affordable prices (affordable for everyone).
Sorry but I don't agree with beta testers being banned for exploits. In fact they should be exploiting so these problems can be fixed before the game goes live.
I agree, but if they dont REPORT the exploits...wouldnt that be a problem?
So let me get this straight. You are in a limited beta for a game company.. And you are ingame talking in chat (regardless if it global chat or whispers) and you are talking about pirating games from said company and implying that its a ok thing to do.
Well first of all you should have known that it being a limited beta EVERYTHING is logged and checked for feedback. It's not a uncommon thing for companys to do when they are trying to perfect there game and its generally a great way to get true feedback without having to rely on polls and questioners and such.
Heck in the early stages of Warhammer beta everything was logged and checked over on a daily bases to see what people where enjoying and what was not working. It was very easy to do since the beta stages where limited in time frame and very specificly focused on certain things.
SWTOR is using a similar system so I imagine they are employing some similar backend setups for mining data and seeing what people are talking about among each other.
You should take this as a lesson that there is no safe place on the internet. Rather its a forum, private chat room, or chat in game. Everything is logged and anyone can easily read it if they so choose to do so.
We won't even get into the torrenting debate other then its far from as safe as alot of people make it out to be. It's easy to grab anyones IP from a torrent tracker and within the US that is all that is needed to open a legal case ageanst you.
As far as pirates hurting Bioware. I doubt they are doing much of anything to there bottom line. Just about every Bioware game has sold over a million copies. Most go on to sell over 2 million and that more then makes up for there development costs and funding for there next project / project(s).
The point in all what I've said early is that I, personaly, can't understand why this kind of things are so TABU...It's like someone talks about that he likes nazzi because of some things and later on being dragged to prison and killed for it. Where is the damn democracy, cuz all I see about this crap is just a US form of comunism...you have freedom of speech, but when touching a soft spot you are treated like the worst criminal; you have the right to choose, but you choose only what others gives you. This is on topic mates, because that pour bastard was treated as a non grata person by that company and above all the rules and such, we tend to believe we live in democracy (right, democracy of some and "shut up, scum" for the rest). This kind of treatment is available to all things, not just this case. Remind that ignorance kills...we will never live in real democracy if we give credits to some that we think they desirve the right to dictate rules. Also, if they want us to spend OUR time testing their software with soooo many rules...ok, we're doing like they want, but pay us! Being volunteer and also getting booted in the backdoor ain't the slightest fare thing to do...Again, my oppinion
About companies and piracy...Cut the crappy false advertising and give people real reasons to buy your product without questioning. Invest in quality, not in damn stupid piracy protection - that's the way to beat piracy!
Originally posted by endersshadow Big Brother is watching! Monitoring chat for the loss.
So I dont get banned here... cause they are watching lol, I DONT SUPPORT PIRATING SOFTWARE. After spending money on a game that was a Terrible Port Job to PC, eh gave me second thoughts.
Terrible port? Dragon Age was a 1000 times better on the PC than on the consoles.
You needn't worry about Bioware banning you for being a pirate, they'd just ban you for having no taste.
Originally posted by Bainwalker Speaking of torrenting I'll admit I do it myself, I'm not going to claim it's okay to do so nor do I think it's my right, for me personally it's the fact I don't think any single-player only game is worth the full price tag they put on all new games. I torrented both Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Origins, I loved both games but still since I beat them the one time I've had no desire to go back and play them again... and that there is the only reason I decided to torrent said games instead of buy them. Was I wrong to do so? Sure, but I did save myself 60 bucks per game.
I recently just torrented Civilzation V and I love the game, and because it has multiplayer I'll be buying it shortly. That one key thing I always look for in a game is multiplayer because it adds so many more hours of enjoyment to a title, plus I'm a social gamer.
I don't expect anyone to believe me in the fact I do buy some of the games I've torrented, I just want you to try and see through my eyes on the matter. I'm a student and can't afford to buy all the great games that come out, for that reason I focus on buying the multiplayer games like Starcraft II and soon Civilization V.
For the record it's rare for me to try and torrent a game I know is mostly played online. -------------------
There are exceptions to my rule in regards to single player games, the Elder Scrolls series for example. Why? Because of the endless time you can spend in said games, games like Mass Effect 2 and even Dragon Age Origins simply felt very confined, they did not have the same replay value I'd place on Oblivion or even the older Morrowind.
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Take from this what you will, call me a pirate or a thief and I won't really care. Feel free to comment if you like.
Wow...did you really just type out an essay in some vain attempt to validate being a pirate?
You aren't a "better type of thief" because there is no such thing. You are simply a thief. Who apparently lacks the strength of will to look in the mirror and go...ya, so what; and instead has to convolute some ridiculous drivel on why it's "different" just in your special case?
Screw that. You don't steal games because they don't have multilayer, you steal games because you're a self-serving jerk. It's really that simple. Essays need not apply.
And if you really had any sense of morality, you'd have just waited for price drops if you don't believe Bioware games are worth 60 bucks. I picked up ME2 a couple of weeks ago for $20.
If you are in a closed beta, don't do anything that could give them a reason to boot you, including typing ignorant things in the in game chat/exploiting/ and generally acting like a fool.
Actually, you should exploit things and post it on the official forum, that is a part of beta testing.
The devs will need to remove anything like that and there will be a character wipe anyways. Betas is about finding bugs, exploits and to balance the game together wit opting the performance of the game.
Big Brother is watching! Monitoring chat for the loss.
So I dont get banned here... cause they are watching lol, I DONT SUPPORT PIRATING SOFTWARE.
After spending money on a game that was a Terrible Port Job to PC, eh gave me second thoughts.
Terrible port? Dragon Age was a 1000 times better on the PC than on the consoles.
You needn't worry about Bioware banning you for being a pirate, they'd just ban you for having no taste.
...and I was not talking about Dragon Age. I was talking about mass effect. The reaction time when I was aiming/moving, it wasnt sharp and reactive. Thats a big pet peeve for me. And I paid 20 dollars for it.
Good job getting all high and mighty on two posters. You do know that Bioware doesnt have a Valhalla for being a short bus fanboi, right?
However, I'm sorry to say that I notice you don't really take the NDA very seriously, by just reading your previous thread.
Just because he doesnt take something very seriously is not in and of itself a reason to get banned. He could of Not took it very serious but still followed the rules is my point.
So no matter how ridiculous it seems, you revealing that you were banned from the testing, detailing the email and so forth, is a breach of NDA in itself.
What reason does he not have to talk about the game now? Its kind of like your best friend telling you some intimate secret . Then your best friend stabs you in the back and has sleeps with your girlfriend. You going to keep that secret?
Its like McDonalds...o wait that doesnt work here... darn...
If he breaks the NDA now, you could say it doesn't matter, but depending on the ban he got now, they can also ban him permanently (after launch as well) from the use of their product.
I'm just saying it's striking that he breaks the NDA in posting emails of how he got banned, as well as other things (which is why the other thread got closed).
I can not believe they banned him for mentioning 'torrents' once; talking about torrents is not talking about pirated content in particular.
Torrenting itself is not illegal and several legal files can be torrented as well.
But he does not seem to pay a particular amount of notice to the NDA agreement, so I'd think it's more likely he got banned through that route.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
However, I'm sorry to say that I notice you don't really take the NDA very seriously, by just reading your previous thread.
Just because he doesnt take something very seriously is not in and of itself a reason to get banned. He could of Not took it very serious but still followed the rules is my point.
So no matter how ridiculous it seems, you revealing that you were banned from the testing, detailing the email and so forth, is a breach of NDA in itself.
What reason does he not have to talk about the game now? Its kind of like your best friend telling you some intimate secret . Then your best friend stabs you in the back and has sleeps with your girlfriend. You going to keep that secret?
Its like McDonalds...o wait that doesnt work here... darn...
If he breaks the NDA now, you could say it doesn't matter, but depending on the ban he got now, they can also ban him permanently (after launch as well) from the use of their product.
I'm just saying it's striking that he breaks the NDA in posting emails of how he got banned, as well as other things (which is why the other thread got closed).
I can not believe they banned him for mentioning 'torrents' once; talking about torrents is not talking about pirated content in particular.
Torrenting itself is not illegal and several legal files can be torrented as well.
But he does not seem to pay a particular amount of notice to the NDA agreement, so I'd think it's more likely he got banned through that route.
This, very solid point. There are hundreds of sites that allow you to torrent free and public files. Such as websites for upcoming artists that allow them to post up their tracks for people to torrent. Simply mentioning "torrents" constitutes no reason for a ban. It's more likely he slipped up somewhere else and either broke the NDA or said something silly a day or two ago and the investigation had just completed.
I happen to work for a video game company and they flat out told me. You can't say that you pirate any sort of software even in jest or you'll be out of work. They take a very harsh stance on pirating or torrenting. Remember the companies are on the opposite side of any pirating or copying of software, it costs then money. Also they gotta figure this. If your "chill" with torrenting then your probably also okay with alot of other things, like giving out information to other people.
In that case they are worried about you breaking their NDA and trust me. They take that contract VERY seriously. If they let you into the beta, they are letting you into a unfinished game that if information of any kind gets out (even data) it could otherwise hurt their product severely. the gaming industry itself is very secretive.
Most people get into beta and think cool free chance to try the game. But what is actually going on is your getting "special" access to the game that is not released. If the company is serious about their game, they will be making sure that security wall they put up is ironclad. They don't like hearing things like i'm cool with torrenting because your seeding data to alot of other people and thus data is getting out into the open. Whether this occurs or not is a non factor. They can't track what you do off their site, but they can take the safer side and figure it's better to get another couple of testers rather then someone who is "chill" with sharing our data to unknown sources.
Basic safe road, if you sign a non disclosure agreement. Just don't say anything outside of what is in the game itself. Your there to test their product first. Use IRC or something to talk about random stuff.
But i figure you know all this and (surprising for this forum) apologized for before . It takes great courage to come out and say you made a mistake. Not alot of people can do that now a days. I guess the point here is to show what the company thinks and for future (hopefully) useful reference in case you get into another beta with an NDA.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I agree that most (Including myself) that torrent games would NOT buy them otherwise.
I've torrented a few games, mostly when i was bored, looking for something to kill time, i would NOT go buy a game to kill some time, thats for sure.
To be honest torrenting gives great exposure to game titles, for example, if i hadn't torrented Dragon Ages, i wouldn't haver realized what an awesome game it is, so when Dragon Age 2 launches i'll be purchasing it.
I think BioWare banning you over some rather ambigious talk about torrenting is extreme, sure they can do what they want, but that kinda mindset won't help with future MMORPGS they title out, as this is their first.
The problem lies that torrents seed data after they are done. A company hearing your okay with sharing data with other people is kinda like saying i'm okay with giving your data out to other people. They are not OK with this. NDA say basically you can't share any information (data or otherwise) with any other source not approved by our company.
Companies that are serious about their game are harsh about what you say. the gaming industry is a very competative field. Every company is looking for the next greatest thing. If one company gets ahold of information from your games company through you and copies it before your company can. Then your company loses alot of money for being a rehash of what another company (the one who got the idea through you) did and doesn't make as much money as they otherwise would have. If they find out it's you who did it they will fire you immediately and most likely fine you to at the very least a portion of what they lost.
Now in this case all that happen was a ban from the beta which i think is okay in this case. Leastwise he can still get into the game. Lesson learned i suppose.
Final note: Torrents of public data is okay to an extent depend on the circumstances but thats all public data. The data in ToR is not public yet.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I can not believe they banned him for mentioning 'torrents' once; talking about torrents is not talking about pirated content in particular.
Torrenting itself is not illegal and several legal files can be torrented as well.
True, WoW and other games use torrents to distribute their updates/patches.
This is 100% correct. You are an absolute fool if you really do think torrenting is that bad. Why? That's like your friend handing you a cd he just bought, and put on his computer so you can now put it on yours. Illegal? I don't think so. Same thing as some one letting you "borrow" that CD. I hate to say it, but since the invention of the internet, anything you create or do will always be some where else, even if it is your own personal information.
Also agreeing with this person here, WoW is not the only game to use torrents in their patches. Before putting piracy and torrenting in the same category, you really should look at the fact that the only way the game will actually run is with the code. Granted , not all single player games have codes. But I guess you would have thought by now they would make personal cd - keys for each disc if they were that concerned with it. Which is true and a valid argument.
In my opinion , torrenting and stealing are completely different. Now if you are going to crack a code, that is now considered stealing. It's how it works. In other words, you illegally, cracked a code that was put on that cd for a reason.
EDIT: He probably didn't get banned for saying "torrenting" , may have been for something else. But either way, who knows. Although I would agree since the game isn't public yet, that would be a bad thing to say.
The biggest problem is this game is still under NDA, thus no talking about or even joking about giving information of any kinda (data or otherwise) to someone outside the game. You can't go into an airport and say bomb and not expect to get jumped by cops. Just as you can't go into beta and say i'm cool with sharing data with other people and expect to stay in the beta. Legality has nothing to do with it. Theres no cd at the moment. it's just all data. How does BW know that specific person won't take their downloaded copy of the game, put it in a torrent file and give it to hundreds of other people?
So while normally it's harsh to ban someone for saying torrent is chill under normal circumstances, it is not harsh when under NDA in a closed beta. Lots of closed betas don't work how normal brick and mortal type companies that you get paid do. They don't care if their data gets spread around because thats just more publicity. But bigger companies like BW prefer to not have their tech and ways of doing things spread out to the general public. By signing that NDA you agree you won't do that, joking about doing it or even talking about it, saying it's okay to do that sorta thing can worry a company. They'd prefer to drop you in lieu of a breach. (IE for example one person started talking about the things he did at work on his first day, was told not to come back. It's a newbie mistake but still the company fired him after one day because it wasn't safe to keep him.)
The OP understands this now and apologized for ranting before, which takes alot of courage to do, even on this forum which is like a lions den sometimes., Noone is quite sure what is safe, thats why you lean on the side of caution and think, if you have to ask is this okay to talk about, then figure it's not until your sure. Saying things like this is a mistake anyone could make, they usually only make it once though. This is just how things work that aren't released to the public, companies protect their products like gold and to them it is, if you threaten that in anyway, it's a tug between you and the money. I don't think i need to tell you who wins out in that case.
I suppose if they wanted to be nice they could have given him a warning instead of a ban but i don't know what went into it or what was on the NDA that was signed.
Do i think BW is wrong for doing it? No
Do i think this will affect BW game sales? Nope.
Do I think this is how this sorta thing normally works? Yep.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Comments
Good to see someone admit that they may actually have been wrong and not a common occurence on here.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
Speaking of torrenting I'll admit I do it myself, I'm not going to claim it's okay to do so nor do I think it's my right, for me personally it's the fact I don't think any single-player only game is worth the full price tag they put on all new games. I torrented both Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Origins, I loved both games but still since I beat them the one time I've had no desire to go back and play them again... and that there is the only reason I decided to torrent said games instead of buy them. Was I wrong to do so? Sure, but I did save myself 60 bucks per game.
I recently just torrented Civilzation V and I love the game, and because it has multiplayer I'll be buying it shortly. That one key thing I always look for in a game is multiplayer because it adds so many more hours of enjoyment to a title, plus I'm a social gamer.
I don't expect anyone to believe me in the fact I do buy some of the games I've torrented, I just want you to try and see through my eyes on the matter. I'm a student and can't afford to buy all the great games that come out, for that reason I focus on buying the multiplayer games like Starcraft II and soon Civilization V.
For the record it's rare for me to try and torrent a game I know is mostly played online.
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There are exceptions to my rule in regards to single player games, the Elder Scrolls series for example. Why? Because of the endless time you can spend in said games, games like Mass Effect 2 and even Dragon Age Origins simply felt very confined, they did not have the same replay value I'd place on Oblivion or even the older Morrowind.
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Take from this what you will, call me a pirate or a thief and I won't really care. Feel free to comment if you like.
Full Sail University - Game Design
Well, I have had a discussion with several CM's over at the Official SWTOR site concerning a comment I made about some gaming news a while back, which I recieved a warning for. Here is their stance:
Discussion, posting, or conversing openly or during any testing phase, on the forums, or on any official or affiliated bioware site of illegal or questionable software circumvention practices or material is a totally bannable offense. They have a zero tolerance for anything approaching an nda violation or behavior that might encourage afore mentioned behaviors. In the beta agreement it flat out says, we have and reserve the right to remove you from beta at anytime not limited to forum, beta, bioware web, biofeed, or any affiliated account with no notice or explination.
In short, if you ONLY got banned for beta. You're lucky. They technically can ban your forum account, bioware account, and all previously purchased actived bioware cd keys if you even have a dream about doing, saying, or posting anything contrary to their posted stance. The mmo divison of videogaming is estimating over 1.24 BILLION in revenue this year alone. Videogaming in general is a 10billion a year industry. Just because these guys are gamers doesnt mean people are not out to get every bit of info to use for itself and push the cometition into the ground. With SWTOR dev costs approaching 200million this is serious serious money. Countries have been overthrown for less.
Remember warhammer? The tome of knowledge and the achievement system and all the rampant beta violations? 1 week after war launched Blizzard launched their "Achievement system" which was a major detractor from war's overall appeal. These companies will beg, borrow, steal, rob and violate the shit out of each other to gain an advantage any way possible. SWTOR has been pushing story story story, choice matters, chaning a persistant world. Any coincidence Guildwars 2's new market campaign is focusing on the same line, spouting the same party-line? IMO no, no coincidence at all. It's a cut throat business. I'm sorry you lost your privelage of playing in the beta, but honestly, you deserved it. We are all responsible for the things that come out of our own mouths. All they did was hold you responsible, and imo, appropriately. I personally would have completely banned you from the game and forum. If you put 5+ years of a man/companies work in jeapordy by recklessly running off at the mouth, no matter how innocent or nonmalicious the intent was. BioWare has, had, and most likely always will have 1 repeated mantra: CHOICE MATTERS. You made yours, They made theirs. Sorry again for the loss, but as someone who has followed this game since it was a rumor, and would sell his soul for a chance to test and play, and give anything to help this game be everything that it has the potential to be, I cannot blame them at all. Hope to see you ingame and let me finish by saying although I despise the concept of piracy, i respect your humility and owning up to the choice you made and the reprecussions you endured. I hope to see you ingame when it goes live. Cheers to you.
Sorry if that came off a bit preachy. Still downing the morning coffee. Brain is not up to speed yet >_<
I couldnt read that whole thing, sorry wall of text took out of one of my eyes, and thats where I draw the line!
But I read most of it, and I cant help but think a solution would be full time paid beta testers. I am an honest person, and if I was playing in a closed (atm) beta, I wouldnt want to break the rules. However if a personal friend asked me what the game was like, I would probably tell them.
But the moment, my "Livelihood" is involved.....my lips are sealed. I dont care if my grandmother on her death bed wants to know about the game, sorry grams.
I know these companies already use paid beta testers, I think they should use a WHOLE lot more.
Sorry but I don't agree with beta testers being banned for exploits. In fact they should be exploiting so these problems can be fixed before the game goes live.
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I agree with everything you said other than the personal opinion on his ban, i have none and can only refer to the T & Cs, they are there to be abided by. Also your stance on Piracy, i don't have the same stance as i see it as a means to and end, ie the companies should learn more from it in regard to offline games/DLC. They realy could make more bucks if they took a few leafs from that book ingested and incorporated them. 10 years from now things will be completely different on the retail side due to piracy, and i don't mean more crappy DRM but rather them learning how to distribute to the masses at more affordable prices (affordable for everyone).
I agree, but if they dont REPORT the exploits...wouldnt that be a problem?
So let me get this straight. You are in a limited beta for a game company.. And you are ingame talking in chat (regardless if it global chat or whispers) and you are talking about pirating games from said company and implying that its a ok thing to do.
Well first of all you should have known that it being a limited beta EVERYTHING is logged and checked for feedback. It's not a uncommon thing for companys to do when they are trying to perfect there game and its generally a great way to get true feedback without having to rely on polls and questioners and such.
Heck in the early stages of Warhammer beta everything was logged and checked over on a daily bases to see what people where enjoying and what was not working. It was very easy to do since the beta stages where limited in time frame and very specificly focused on certain things.
SWTOR is using a similar system so I imagine they are employing some similar backend setups for mining data and seeing what people are talking about among each other.
You should take this as a lesson that there is no safe place on the internet. Rather its a forum, private chat room, or chat in game. Everything is logged and anyone can easily read it if they so choose to do so.
We won't even get into the torrenting debate other then its far from as safe as alot of people make it out to be. It's easy to grab anyones IP from a torrent tracker and within the US that is all that is needed to open a legal case ageanst you.
http://torrentfreak.com/how-any-bittorrent-user-can-collect-lawsuit-evidence-100903/
As far as pirates hurting Bioware. I doubt they are doing much of anything to there bottom line. Just about every Bioware game has sold over a million copies. Most go on to sell over 2 million and that more then makes up for there development costs and funding for there next project / project(s).
The point in all what I've said early is that I, personaly, can't understand why this kind of things are so TABU...It's like someone talks about that he likes nazzi because of some things and later on being dragged to prison and killed for it. Where is the damn democracy, cuz all I see about this crap is just a US form of comunism...you have freedom of speech, but when touching a soft spot you are treated like the worst criminal; you have the right to choose, but you choose only what others gives you. This is on topic mates, because that pour bastard was treated as a non grata person by that company and above all the rules and such, we tend to believe we live in democracy (right, democracy of some and "shut up, scum" for the rest). This kind of treatment is available to all things, not just this case. Remind that ignorance kills...we will never live in real democracy if we give credits to some that we think they desirve the right to dictate rules. Also, if they want us to spend OUR time testing their software with soooo many rules...ok, we're doing like they want, but pay us! Being volunteer and also getting booted in the backdoor ain't the slightest fare thing to do...Again, my oppinion
About companies and piracy...Cut the crappy false advertising and give people real reasons to buy your product without questioning. Invest in quality, not in damn stupid piracy protection - that's the way to beat piracy!
Again, my opinion
Terrible port? Dragon Age was a 1000 times better on the PC than on the consoles.
You needn't worry about Bioware banning you for being a pirate, they'd just ban you for having no taste.
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Wow...did you really just type out an essay in some vain attempt to validate being a pirate?
You aren't a "better type of thief" because there is no such thing. You are simply a thief. Who apparently lacks the strength of will to look in the mirror and go...ya, so what; and instead has to convolute some ridiculous drivel on why it's "different" just in your special case?
Screw that. You don't steal games because they don't have multilayer, you steal games because you're a self-serving jerk. It's really that simple. Essays need not apply.
And if you really had any sense of morality, you'd have just waited for price drops if you don't believe Bioware games are worth 60 bucks. I picked up ME2 a couple of weeks ago for $20.
Alltern8 Blog | Star Wars Space Combat and The Old Republic | Cryptic Studios - A Pre Post-Mortem | Klingon Preview, STO's Monster Play
Actually, you should exploit things and post it on the official forum, that is a part of beta testing.
The devs will need to remove anything like that and there will be a character wipe anyways. Betas is about finding bugs, exploits and to balance the game together wit opting the performance of the game.
...and I was not talking about Dragon Age. I was talking about mass effect. The reaction time when I was aiming/moving, it wasnt sharp and reactive. Thats a big pet peeve for me. And I paid 20 dollars for it.
Good job getting all high and mighty on two posters. You do know that Bioware doesnt have a Valhalla for being a short bus fanboi, right?
If he breaks the NDA now, you could say it doesn't matter, but depending on the ban he got now, they can also ban him permanently (after launch as well) from the use of their product.
I'm just saying it's striking that he breaks the NDA in posting emails of how he got banned, as well as other things (which is why the other thread got closed).
I can not believe they banned him for mentioning 'torrents' once; talking about torrents is not talking about pirated content in particular.
Torrenting itself is not illegal and several legal files can be torrented as well.
But he does not seem to pay a particular amount of notice to the NDA agreement, so I'd think it's more likely he got banned through that route.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
This, very solid point. There are hundreds of sites that allow you to torrent free and public files. Such as websites for upcoming artists that allow them to post up their tracks for people to torrent. Simply mentioning "torrents" constitutes no reason for a ban. It's more likely he slipped up somewhere else and either broke the NDA or said something silly a day or two ago and the investigation had just completed.
True, WoW and other games use torrents to distribute their updates/patches.
I happen to work for a video game company and they flat out told me. You can't say that you pirate any sort of software even in jest or you'll be out of work. They take a very harsh stance on pirating or torrenting. Remember the companies are on the opposite side of any pirating or copying of software, it costs then money. Also they gotta figure this. If your "chill" with torrenting then your probably also okay with alot of other things, like giving out information to other people.
In that case they are worried about you breaking their NDA and trust me. They take that contract VERY seriously. If they let you into the beta, they are letting you into a unfinished game that if information of any kind gets out (even data) it could otherwise hurt their product severely. the gaming industry itself is very secretive.
Most people get into beta and think cool free chance to try the game. But what is actually going on is your getting "special" access to the game that is not released. If the company is serious about their game, they will be making sure that security wall they put up is ironclad. They don't like hearing things like i'm cool with torrenting because your seeding data to alot of other people and thus data is getting out into the open. Whether this occurs or not is a non factor. They can't track what you do off their site, but they can take the safer side and figure it's better to get another couple of testers rather then someone who is "chill" with sharing our data to unknown sources.
Basic safe road, if you sign a non disclosure agreement. Just don't say anything outside of what is in the game itself. Your there to test their product first. Use IRC or something to talk about random stuff.
But i figure you know all this and (surprising for this forum) apologized for before . It takes great courage to come out and say you made a mistake. Not alot of people can do that now a days. I guess the point here is to show what the company thinks and for future (hopefully) useful reference in case you get into another beta with an NDA.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I don't see anything wrong with torrenting.
I agree that most (Including myself) that torrent games would NOT buy them otherwise.
I've torrented a few games, mostly when i was bored, looking for something to kill time, i would NOT go buy a game to kill some time, thats for sure.
To be honest torrenting gives great exposure to game titles, for example, if i hadn't torrented Dragon Ages, i wouldn't haver realized what an awesome game it is, so when Dragon Age 2 launches i'll be purchasing it.
I think BioWare banning you over some rather ambigious talk about torrenting is extreme, sure they can do what they want, but that kinda mindset won't help with future MMORPGS they title out, as this is their first.
The problem lies that torrents seed data after they are done. A company hearing your okay with sharing data with other people is kinda like saying i'm okay with giving your data out to other people. They are not OK with this. NDA say basically you can't share any information (data or otherwise) with any other source not approved by our company.
Companies that are serious about their game are harsh about what you say. the gaming industry is a very competative field. Every company is looking for the next greatest thing. If one company gets ahold of information from your games company through you and copies it before your company can. Then your company loses alot of money for being a rehash of what another company (the one who got the idea through you) did and doesn't make as much money as they otherwise would have. If they find out it's you who did it they will fire you immediately and most likely fine you to at the very least a portion of what they lost.
Now in this case all that happen was a ban from the beta which i think is okay in this case. Leastwise he can still get into the game. Lesson learned i suppose.
Final note: Torrents of public data is okay to an extent depend on the circumstances but thats all public data. The data in ToR is not public yet.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
This is 100% correct. You are an absolute fool if you really do think torrenting is that bad. Why? That's like your friend handing you a cd he just bought, and put on his computer so you can now put it on yours. Illegal? I don't think so. Same thing as some one letting you "borrow" that CD. I hate to say it, but since the invention of the internet, anything you create or do will always be some where else, even if it is your own personal information.
Also agreeing with this person here, WoW is not the only game to use torrents in their patches. Before putting piracy and torrenting in the same category, you really should look at the fact that the only way the game will actually run is with the code. Granted , not all single player games have codes. But I guess you would have thought by now they would make personal cd - keys for each disc if they were that concerned with it. Which is true and a valid argument.
In my opinion , torrenting and stealing are completely different. Now if you are going to crack a code, that is now considered stealing. It's how it works. In other words, you illegally, cracked a code that was put on that cd for a reason.
EDIT: He probably didn't get banned for saying "torrenting" , may have been for something else. But either way, who knows. Although I would agree since the game isn't public yet, that would be a bad thing to say.
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I think that if you download a game that you should have paid for should be treated the same as you had stolen someones car.
Various goverments are too soft on pirates.
Send them all to jail for three to five years.
And thats for the first offence.
The second offence should be six to ten.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
The biggest problem is this game is still under NDA, thus no talking about or even joking about giving information of any kinda (data or otherwise) to someone outside the game. You can't go into an airport and say bomb and not expect to get jumped by cops. Just as you can't go into beta and say i'm cool with sharing data with other people and expect to stay in the beta. Legality has nothing to do with it. Theres no cd at the moment. it's just all data. How does BW know that specific person won't take their downloaded copy of the game, put it in a torrent file and give it to hundreds of other people?
So while normally it's harsh to ban someone for saying torrent is chill under normal circumstances, it is not harsh when under NDA in a closed beta. Lots of closed betas don't work how normal brick and mortal type companies that you get paid do. They don't care if their data gets spread around because thats just more publicity. But bigger companies like BW prefer to not have their tech and ways of doing things spread out to the general public. By signing that NDA you agree you won't do that, joking about doing it or even talking about it, saying it's okay to do that sorta thing can worry a company. They'd prefer to drop you in lieu of a breach. (IE for example one person started talking about the things he did at work on his first day, was told not to come back. It's a newbie mistake but still the company fired him after one day because it wasn't safe to keep him.)
The OP understands this now and apologized for ranting before, which takes alot of courage to do, even on this forum which is like a lions den sometimes., Noone is quite sure what is safe, thats why you lean on the side of caution and think, if you have to ask is this okay to talk about, then figure it's not until your sure. Saying things like this is a mistake anyone could make, they usually only make it once though. This is just how things work that aren't released to the public, companies protect their products like gold and to them it is, if you threaten that in anyway, it's a tug between you and the money. I don't think i need to tell you who wins out in that case.
I suppose if they wanted to be nice they could have given him a warning instead of a ban but i don't know what went into it or what was on the NDA that was signed.
Do i think BW is wrong for doing it? No
Do i think this will affect BW game sales? Nope.
Do I think this is how this sorta thing normally works? Yep.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
99.9% of all torrent traffic is illegal, and you all know it. If you're a damn thief, just own up to it, stop trying to justify it.