A Rant from a Fan Girl

SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by maskedtears

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by maskedtears

Again I say, a discussion on what? If you say you hate pink, what do you want me to say? That's what I'm confused about. 

I'll post in.... hmm purplely pink. 

 To sum it up for you very briefly: On a PUBLIC forum you do not get to decide what people want to discuss. You can choose to participate or not and that is it. If someone says they like something, everyone else is 100% justified to say they don't like it. Simply because YOU personally want to have very defined discussion on what is allowed and what is not will never make it be the case. With a public forum everyone is entitled to say anything they want that doesn't break the rules, meaning everytime someone says they like FFXIV someone else can pop up and say they don't like it and that is allowed and perfectly fine.

 

To go back on something my original post said, I don't think forums is a place for you. You obviously don't like the format and/or hearing what other people want to say so you would probably be a happier person if you just didn't get involved in forums at all.

 

There are times where I will be involved in a discussion and I tire of it or feel it is going nowhere and I do the logical thing, move on. I let that discussion die off and get involved in something else. I don't make a long post on why I feel such discussions shouldn't happen and try to reinvent the public forum system to fit my needs.

I don't remember expressing a problem with the topic, I have a problem with people automatically expecting to hear the other side of the story when it wasn't asked for. And I obviously don't have a problem with people saying what they want, however I do have a problem with people assuming that just because I didn't say why I disagree means I don't have a reason. 

 

Sadly, you are wrong, I love forums. I find them addicting. In fact that was my favorite part of Darkfall.  Community discussions on the forums. So you are making assumptions based on what I didn't say. Which is the point I'm trying to make. People have been posting that fanbois think the game is perfect that there aren't any problems. Just because I haven't said what my problems were with the game doesn't mean that I don't have an opinion on it. 

 

You are assuming you know why I am making this post in the first place. I happened to read a post that someone posted (obviously) and someone said that all the fanbois don't have a problem with anything in the game, which is completely untrue. They then stated this as fact because we weren't making threads about it or talking about it. I don't understand this frame of thought and therefore made a thread to discuss this anomaly. 

 

You are doing exactly what I'm saying I don't understand. 

 No. I will put it either simpiler then the last time to help avoid the extra confusion.

 

If you don't like how people use the forums, then don't use them.

 

It doesn't matter if you like this forum or that forum etc. It all boils down to exactly one point only. If you don't like the way people post/use the MMORPG.com forums, then don't use them.

Klizzi

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

"Why do you involve yourself in forums at all if you don't like the back and forthing of discussion which is why forums exist? It makes no sense."

Oh come on, show me one recent FFXIV complaint thread where it's a discussion. The whole point she's trying to get across is people aren't even stating opinions as opinions or discussing. One person makes a negative thread, then goes around to everyone else's thread and tells people who enjoy the game why they shouldn't.

The following is a depiction of every current FFXIV thread.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV.

Poster 2: Well, you shouldn't, because it sucks and is slow.

poster 1: No it's not, it's way better than WoW's.

Poster 2: Nah it sucks, it's too slow.

The way you're saying it is and the way it should be, but isn't.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV

Poster 2: I found it a little too slow for my tastes.

Poster 1: It's not as slow once you pick up on the chain and combo attacks.

There is no discussion, it's just one person trying to force their views onto everyone else and then the opposing side attempting to do the same in the opposite direction. The threads don't go anywhere. The first and second post repeat for infinity.

Well, for example, look at your little discussion thread...

 

People will have negative complaints about the game.  ALL people won't like the same game.  In your "discussion" you bring up WoW and say this game is better in combat.  You have just brought the wrath of all the people that play WoW. 

 

I've noticed that the people who like the game have brought an elitist attitude to the discussion.  If people don't like the UI, then they are dumb for not trying to figure it out.  If people don't like the slow combat,  it's because they are WoW players who refuse to accept different combat styles. 

 

If people can discuss a game and what they like about it without the need to downplay another game, then I think the conversations would go a bit better.  But you, even in your example, degrade WoW.  That is not a good selling point for the game you like.

Uh huh. Now tell me how what you just said changes that fact that 8/10 threads about FFXIV here in some shape or form compare or bring up WoW? What you said in your second paragraph is how almost every single FFXIV complain or praise thread goes, which is what I said. And your third paragraph is pretty much exactly what I said. I don't see what point you're trying to make that is different from the one I stated above your post.

There is no discussion, it just comes down to elitist attitudes bashing people's opinions because they think their own is more correct.

The point I'm trying to make is that you, yourself, brought another game into the argument and state that some mechanics are better than that game.  A big NO NO when trying to prove your point.  Just state why you like the game.  You don't have to say the other person is stupid or a WoW player for not liking it.

Oh, I see. You didn't realize that those examples were examples of the kind of back and forth "discussions" that go on at this forum and not my personal views. I'm sorry I miscalculated the average intelligence of an MMORPG.com surfer.

Torment1982

Originally posted by Klizzi

Oh, I see. You didn't realize that those examples were examples of the kind of back and forth "discussions" that go on at this forum and not my personal views. I'm sorry I miscalculated the average intelligence of an MMORPG.com surfer.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, people will assume its a duck.  If it was in fact a dog you should really say so because sarcasm is a lot harder to translate over a forum.  Arrogance on the other hand, loud and clear.

maskedtears

Originally posted by Torment1982

Originally posted by maskedtears

I don't think that how I feel is everyone and their mother's business. But I do feel the need to defend the game from incorrect information. I also feel the need to speak up when a legitimate thread gets derailed by hate. If it starts out angry,not much I can do about it.

This part here is why I get involved in the debates.  You want to defend against overly negative ciriticism, other people want to defend against overly positive reviews.  I tend to the side against overly positive reviews, basically what looks like blind fanboism because people read reviews and then decide whether to buy a game.  Most of the time however, It basically boils bown to an armsrace of opinion because someone gets too extreme, or too insulting provoking others to jump in. 

I tend to take offense just as much at the people who post they hate the game and everyone should stay away as well as the ones that claim FFXIV is the best game with the best launch ever.  Both seem utterely rediculous to me, and both sides are more than happy to leap in and say why. 

This game managed to irk me more than others because I really like some of the systems they chose to use, so I SHOULD like this game, and yet its unfinished enough, with enough flaws that when people tell ME that its perfect it is going to cause me to tell them exactly why its not, raging ensues. 

I do not want to defend the game against overly negative criticism. I DO however want to keep talking about the game and not about the intelligence level of the other party.  Why do you assume that I'm talking about defending the game? Derail:  to obstruct the progress of. If someone is causing the discussion to grind to a stand still I do not approve. I'm confused as to where you came to that conclusion? 

So basically you are saying you are upset because you feel like people are telling you it's perfect even when you don't ask them what they feel could be improved. No one has said that the UI (for example) is perfect. We just don't find it the end of all ends like some people do. This is not elitist it just means our tolerance levels are different. Them not complaining about an issue that isn't on the top of their priorities is normal, just like you complaining about your priorities is normal. 

Klizzi

Originally posted by Torment1982

Originally posted by Klizzi

Oh, I see. You didn't realize that those examples were examples of the kind of back and forth "discussions" that go on at this forum and not my personal views. I'm sorry I miscalculated the average intelligence of an MMORPG.com surfer.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, people will assume its a duck.  If it was in fact a dog you should really say so because sarcasm is a lot harder to translate over a forum.  Arrogance on the other hand, loud and clear.

I'm sorry, you must have missed the obvious:

"The following is a depiction of every current FFXIV thread.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV.

Poster 2: Well, you shouldn't, because it sucks and is slow.

poster 1: No it's not, it's way better than WoW's.

Poster 2: Nah it sucks, it's too slow."

You're right. Arrogance is loud and clear. Almost as loud and clear as idiocy. =P

FreeBooteR

There are always two sides to this debate.

1) You disovered a new MMO and follow it closely only to discover that in your opinion you don't like the game. Your a good person at heart and you feel it is your duty as a fellow human being to warn all others of this complete tragedy of a game and quickly post on MMORPG dire warnings to prevent all your potential friends from being cruelly ripped off.

2) You discover a new MMO and reading everything you could gleam about it decide you love it. You are so thrilled you want to share your new passion with the whole world and come to MMORPG to bring it's golden fruit of knowledge to the masses. Upon discovering opinion #1 you are aghast at how such a low browed ignorant putz could dare defame such glory and surely they must bow down in supplication to such glowing divinity! An insult to your game is an insult to you personally and you must now venture forth on holy crusade to defeat this pathetic fool with a wall of crushing text to disavow them of their ill thought opinions!

 

Upshot: Both are right. How the hell else are you going to find out if the game is for you without reading released information and then listening to the opinions of your peers to see if it might be a fit for you. It's all good fun

maskedtears

 

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

I would agree that in most cases it's pointless to attempt convincing someone, on these boards particularly, that their view of a particular title is incorrect or invalid. When it comes to games, I usually ask myself if it's really even worth it, or if people are just arguing for the sake of arguing. While debate is a great hobby, most of it is pretty mindless and subjective here, and alot of credibility goes out the window when people keep referring to these separate groups, fanbois and trolls, as if they're the only two that exist.

As for why people try to convince others that their opinion is better, more educated, or founded on evidence: most of that boils down to wanting to see more games of a specific category that they enjoy. I want more sandbox games, for example, so I don't mind a friendly debate as to the benefits of either system, and how they relate to one another. It's important that I let people know how I feel, as anyone else with a strong passion for games should, because its a means to be heard, either by the community here, by developers on other boards, or by the people who just skim through them. It's okay that other players have different opinions. We don't have to label them in black and white, and it's a pretty frequent occurrence to see forum posters trying to discredit others by attempting to place them on one side of the argument or the other.

That being said, FFXIV isn't for me. I'm not going to waste my time trying to tell people why I think their opinion is wrong, but rather try to tell them why I feel the way I do about the game, and what particular elements made me feel that way (if I were to post my personal review or preview of the game). Discussion is a great tool to help us see another's perspective, but we actually have to try to project ourselves into a different state of mind to fully understand why someone else feels the way they do. What usually happens around here is a stubborn stand off, name calling, and personal attacks, which leads to nothing productive for either party. I know I've been guilty of this before, but that's why we make mistakes: so we can learn from them.

And I think this is fantastic. But by looking at the track-record for this industry, that doesn't happen. Developers make games they think people want to play, regardless of what players are actually discussing. Because people are all over in terms of what they want. 

Lawlmonster

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by Torment1982

Originally posted by Klizzi

Oh, I see. You didn't realize that those examples were examples of the kind of back and forth "discussions" that go on at this forum and not my personal views. I'm sorry I miscalculated the average intelligence of an MMORPG.com surfer.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, people will assume its a duck.  If it was in fact a dog you should really say so because sarcasm is a lot harder to translate over a forum.  Arrogance on the other hand, loud and clear.

I'm sorry, you must have missed the obvious:

"The following is a depiction of every current FFXIV thread.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV.

Poster 2: Well, you shouldn't, because it sucks and is slow.

poster 1: No it's not, it's way better than WoW's.

Poster 2: Nah it sucks, it's too slow."

You're right. Arrogance is loud and clear. Almost as loud and clear as idiocy. =P

It's easier to brand people with different opinions as mentally inferior, rather than try to examine why they feel the way they do. Some opinions can be frustrating to read, and I'd agree that I read something from time to time that gets on my nerves, but I'm not sure intelligence has anything to do with it. Opinions are based on experience, and if for whatever reason a particular individual has a differente experience, it doesn't make them dumb, or idiotic, it just makes them different.

maskedtears

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

Originally posted by maskedtears

Again I say, a discussion on what? If you say you hate pink, what do you want me to say? That's what I'm confused about. 

I'll post in.... hmm purplely pink. 

 To sum it up for you very briefly: On a PUBLIC forum you do not get to decide what people want to discuss. You can choose to participate or not and that is it. If someone says they like something, everyone else is 100% justified to say they don't like it. Simply because YOU personally want to have very defined discussion on what is allowed and what is not will never make it be the case. With a public forum everyone is entitled to say anything they want that doesn't break the rules, meaning everytime someone says they like FFXIV someone else can pop up and say they don't like it and that is allowed and perfectly fine.

 

To go back on something my original post said, I don't think forums is a place for you. You obviously don't like the format and/or hearing what other people want to say so you would probably be a happier person if you just didn't get involved in forums at all.

 

There are times where I will be involved in a discussion and I tire of it or feel it is going nowhere and I do the logical thing, move on. I let that discussion die off and get involved in something else. I don't make a long post on why I feel such discussions shouldn't happen and try to reinvent the public forum system to fit my needs.

I hate you. You smell and your opinions suck. I'm smarter than you, thus any possible retort made by you is pointless as it will not measure up to my level of awesomeness. You can defend yourself, but you'll be wrong, because I'm correct. And once again, smarter than you.

I've just summed up the FFXIV part of MMORPG. Where is the discussion in that? In the end I want to hear your response to her question.

-"Again I say, a discussion on what? If you say you hate pink, what do you want me to say? That's what I'm confused about. "

 Believe it or not one person saying they hate pink and another person saying they like it is also the definition of a discussion. It is as simple as that.

 

You want a DEBATE where people argue two different views on a topic, the reasoning behind it, while trying to convince the other poster/audience. A DISCUSSION is any form of comments back and forth between two people, it does not have to have depth or be a debate. A DEBATE is simply a different form of discussion.

 

Seeing that a forum is a place for discussions, that means there does not have to be any extra context in the conversation. It can, for all intents and purposes, be simply "I like X" "I dislike X". Guess what, you just had a discussion.

 

One of the biggest issues that happens on this site, in all forms of posts, is people confusing the definition of words. They decide that to them, for example, a discussion is a deep conversation with multiple angles and topics with factual information used to back up the different opinions. However, that is not the actual definition, just their interpretted one, and thus the confusion happens. Just look at the term MMO. Everyone has a slightly different thought on what the definition is for that term, and so the conversations tend to get stuck on that point instead of going any further.

 

So if you say you'd rather have meaningful debates on this site, that would be a wholly different topic. But both yourself, and the OP, focused on the term discussion and do not grasp the fact that even the simplest comments back and forth on the same topic makes for a discussion.

My point again is that if I don't respond to their I like pink comment, it ISN'T a discussion. Therefore I have to say something. Whether or not the person gets the answer they want or wanted to talk about is more dependent on them asking a question. Which was more my point. 

 

Back to the pink example. If you wanted me to explain why I liked blue instead of pink, I'm not going to know that from the simple statement. I like pink. Or I hate pink. Which is my point. 

 

So I don't understand WHY I have to give an opinion in a discussion where I'm not being asked the question upfront. 

Klizzi

"Believe it or not one person saying they hate pink and another person saying they like it is also the definition of a discussion. It is as simple as that."

Depends, are you providing your "I hate pink" statement to my "I love pink" statement without examining my argument? If you examine my argument and provide a counter argument, it becomes a discussion. If you read that I love pink and think that I'm stupid automatically because you don't like pink, it's not really a discussion.

Anyway, don't mean to hijack Masked's thread, just clearing that stuff up. Proceed.

Torment1982

I do not want to defend the game against overly negative criticism. I DO however want to keep talking about the game and not about the intelligence level of the other party.  Why do you assume that I'm talking about defending the game? Derail:  to obstruct the progress of. If someone is causing the discussion to grind to a stand still I do not approve. I'm confused as to where you came to that conclusion?

True enough , I misinterpreted what you said.  I, knowing you enjoy the game, made the assumption you would defend overly negative criticism first, if you just want a discussion that's fine, its pretty much what I'd prefer. 

So basically you are saying you are upset because you feel like people are telling you it's perfect even when you don't ask them what they feel could be improved. No one has said that the UI (for example) is perfect. We just don't find it the end of all ends like some people do. This is not elitist it just means our tolerance levels are different. Them not complaining about an issue that isn't on the top of their priorities is normal, just like you complaining about your priorities is normal. 

I respond to the tone of the argument, if they want to say why they like the game and why it should be improved then I will form a response with that in mind, or not bother because at that point I'm more of a lurker than a participant, interested but not engaged. 

If on the other hand, it looks like blind hate or blind fanboyism then I will respond in the same manner, while I could take the responsibility of trying to redirect the debate, I will not because I think its even more futile than debating with such an extreme opinion in the first place.  I find extreme opinions worth confronting on principle, but I don't expect to change their mind, I hope to sway those who come after.

 

 

 

Klizzi

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by Torment1982

Originally posted by Klizzi

Oh, I see. You didn't realize that those examples were examples of the kind of back and forth "discussions" that go on at this forum and not my personal views. I'm sorry I miscalculated the average intelligence of an MMORPG.com surfer.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, people will assume its a duck.  If it was in fact a dog you should really say so because sarcasm is a lot harder to translate over a forum.  Arrogance on the other hand, loud and clear.

I'm sorry, you must have missed the obvious:

"The following is a depiction of every current FFXIV thread.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV.

Poster 2: Well, you shouldn't, because it sucks and is slow.

poster 1: No it's not, it's way better than WoW's.

Poster 2: Nah it sucks, it's too slow."

You're right. Arrogance is loud and clear. Almost as loud and clear as idiocy. =P

It's easier to brand people with different opinions as mentally inferior, rather than try to examine why they feel the way they do. Some opinions can be frustrating to read, and I'd agree that I read something from time to time that gets on my nerves, but I'm not sure intelligence has anything to do with it. Opinions are based on experience, and if for whatever reason a particular individual has a differente experience, it doesn't make them dumb, or idiotic, it just makes them different.

Nah, the idiocy part had nothing to do with that comment. It was just an edition directed directly toward someone in retort due to them blindly responding to my statement without properly reading it. =P.

maskedtears

Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

 

 No. I will put it either simpiler then the last time to help avoid the extra confusion.

 

If you don't like how people use the forums, then don't use them.

 

It doesn't matter if you like this forum or that forum etc. It all boils down to exactly one point only. If you don't like the way people post/use the MMORPG.com forums, then don't use them.

I don't like the way some people drive, it doesn't mean I'm not going to drive. 

 

I already stated there are a lot of reasons why I like the forums, no I didn't say what these reasons were. You didn't ask. So I haven't stated it. 

 

Obviously since I am on the forums, those reasons outweigh my dislike of assumptions and what I perceive as bad logic 

junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

"Why do you involve yourself in forums at all if you don't like the back and forthing of discussion which is why forums exist? It makes no sense."

Oh come on, show me one recent FFXIV complaint thread where it's a discussion. The whole point she's trying to get across is people aren't even stating opinions as opinions or discussing. One person makes a negative thread, then goes around to everyone else's thread and tells people who enjoy the game why they shouldn't.

The following is a depiction of every current FFXIV thread.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV.

Poster 2: Well, you shouldn't, because it sucks and is slow.

poster 1: No it's not, it's way better than WoW's.

Poster 2: Nah it sucks, it's too slow.

The way you're saying it is and the way it should be, but isn't.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV

Poster 2: I found it a little too slow for my tastes.

Poster 1: It's not as slow once you pick up on the chain and combo attacks.

There is no discussion, it's just one person trying to force their views onto everyone else and then the opposing side attempting to do the same in the opposite direction. The threads don't go anywhere. The first and second post repeat for infinity.

Well, for example, look at your little discussion thread...

 

People will have negative complaints about the game.  ALL people won't like the same game.  In your "discussion" you bring up WoW and say this game is better in combat.  You have just brought the wrath of all the people that play WoW. 

 

I've noticed that the people who like the game have brought an elitist attitude to the discussion.  If people don't like the UI, then they are dumb for not trying to figure it out.  If people don't like the slow combat,  it's because they are WoW players who refuse to accept different combat styles. 

 

If people can discuss a game and what they like about it without the need to downplay another game, then I think the conversations would go a bit better.  But you, even in your example, degrade WoW.  That is not a good selling point for the game you like.

Uh huh. Now tell me how what you just said changes that fact that 8/10 threads about FFXIV here in some shape or form compare or bring up WoW? What you said in your second paragraph is how almost every single FFXIV complain or praise thread goes, which is what I said. And your third paragraph is pretty much exactly what I said. I don't see what point you're trying to make that is different from the one I stated above your post.

There is no discussion, it just comes down to elitist attitudes bashing people's opinions because they think their own is more correct.

The point I'm trying to make is that you, yourself, brought another game into the argument and state that some mechanics are better than that game.  A big NO NO when trying to prove your point.  Just state why you like the game.  You don't have to say the other person is stupid or a WoW player for not liking it.

Oh, I see. You didn't realize that those examples were examples of the kind of back and forth "discussions" that go on at this forum and not my personal views. I'm sorry I miscalculated the average intelligence of an MMORPG.com surfer.

As I said...people like you don't make the game sound appealing to anyone.  Degrading people is no way to sell a game.  If the average community of the game is like you...then I'll think I'll skip it.

maskedtears

Originally posted by FreeBooteR

There are always two sides to this debate.

1) You disovered a new MMO and follow it closely only to discover that in your opinion you don't like the game. Your a good person at heart and you feel it is your duty as a fellow human being to warn all others of this complete tragedy of a game and quickly post on MMORPG dire warnings to prevent all your potential friends from being cruelly ripped off.

2) You discover a new MMO and reading everything you could gleam about it decide you love it. You are so thrilled you want to share your new passion with the whole world and come to MMORPG to bring it's golden fruit of knowledge to the masses. Upon discovering opinion #1 you are aghast at how such a low browed ignorant putz could dare defame such glory and surely they must bow down in supplication to such glowing divinity! An insult to your game is an insult to you personally and you must now venture forth on holy crusade to defeat this pathetic fool with a wall of crushing text to disavow them of their ill thought opinions!

 

Upshot: Both are right. How the hell else are you going to find out if the game is for you without reading released information and then listening to the opinions of your peers to see if it might be a fit for you. It's all good fun

Of course they are both right which was my point haha. It's just that I've seen a lot of complaints about the lack of the other side making threads. And I'm just explaining why I haven't made a thread stating my glowing opinion of the game. Which is in fact not glowing, but since I've been thrown into the fanboy group even though I'm a girl. And banned from the Haters group because I've never played WoW and can't say if WoW is better or not. I know it is all good fun, but I have more of a problem with people assuming that fans don't have any problems just because they aren't stating them. 

Ozivois

Politics, politics, politics.

 

I was just talking to a friend yesterday about what is wrong with our country (USA) and why we are having trouble competing against Eastern industry.

 

The reason is because we value politics over work ethic around here too much.  Look at who is in charge of things where you work.  I would wager that most of the decision makers are part idiot, but mostly good at making their opinions sounds like the right ones.  I see alot of businesses failing because of stupid mistakes being made by the companies leaders and management, and the companies continue to hire and promote people who are good at politics but bad at the core of their job.

 

Our Amercian culture is becoming more and more engrained with the verbal politics, rhetoric, bullying and "smoke and mirrors".  Expect to see these values in practice in all these forums and anywhere else you see Americans communicating!

BeansnBread

Originally posted by maskedtears

 

I don't remember expressing a problem with the topic, I have a problem with people automatically expecting to hear the other side of the story when it wasn't asked for. And I obviously don't have a problem with people saying what they want, however I do have a problem with people assuming that just because I didn't say why I disagree means I don't have a reason. 

 

Sadly, you are wrong, I love forums. I find them addicting. In fact that was my favorite part of Darkfall.  Community discussions on the forums. So you are making assumptions based on what I didn't say. Which is the point I'm trying to make. People have been posting that fanbois think the game is perfect that there aren't any problems. Just because I haven't said what my problems were with the game doesn't mean that I don't have an opinion on it. 

 

You are assuming you know why I am making this post in the first place. I happened to read a post that someone posted (obviously) and someone said that all the fanbois don't have a problem with anything in the game, which is completely untrue. They then stated this as fact because we weren't making threads about it or talking about it. I don't understand this frame of thought and therefore made a thread to discuss this anomaly. 

 

You are doing exactly what I'm saying I don't understand. 

That's the issue. You should, from now on, expect people to automatically deliver the other side of the story when it isn't asked for.

Torment1982

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by Torment1982

Originally posted by Klizzi

Oh, I see. You didn't realize that those examples were examples of the kind of back and forth "discussions" that go on at this forum and not my personal views. I'm sorry I miscalculated the average intelligence of an MMORPG.com surfer.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, people will assume its a duck.  If it was in fact a dog you should really say so because sarcasm is a lot harder to translate over a forum.  Arrogance on the other hand, loud and clear.

I'm sorry, you must have missed the obvious:

"The following is a depiction of every current FFXIV thread.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV.

Poster 2: Well, you shouldn't, because it sucks and is slow.

poster 1: No it's not, it's way better than WoW's.

Poster 2: Nah it sucks, it's too slow."

You're right. Arrogance is loud and clear. Almost as loud and clear as idiocy. =P

It's easier to brand people with different opinions as mentally inferior, rather than try to examine why they feel the way they do. Some opinions can be frustrating to read, and I'd agree that I read something from time to time that gets on my nerves, but I'm not sure intelligence has anything to do with it. Opinions are based on experience, and if for whatever reason a particular individual has a differente experience, it doesn't make them dumb, or idiotic, it just makes them different.

Nah, the idiocy part had nothing to do with that comment. It was just an edition directed directly toward someone in retort due to them blindly responding to my statement without properly reading it. =P.

Pfft, I assume the highlighted part is what I missed? That doesn't mean it wasn't your opinion, it looked like a lot of other threads that basically do the same thing, sum up the thread in the worst possible light against the arguers to attempt to make their opinion more valid.  "Depiction" does not by default mean satire, or indicate an unbiased opinion. 

Still, better luck next time.

Klizzi

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

"Why do you involve yourself in forums at all if you don't like the back and forthing of discussion which is why forums exist? It makes no sense."

Oh come on, show me one recent FFXIV complaint thread where it's a discussion. The whole point she's trying to get across is people aren't even stating opinions as opinions or discussing. One person makes a negative thread, then goes around to everyone else's thread and tells people who enjoy the game why they shouldn't.

The following is a depiction of every current FFXIV thread.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV.

Poster 2: Well, you shouldn't, because it sucks and is slow.

poster 1: No it's not, it's way better than WoW's.

Poster 2: Nah it sucks, it's too slow.

The way you're saying it is and the way it should be, but isn't.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV

Poster 2: I found it a little too slow for my tastes.

Poster 1: It's not as slow once you pick up on the chain and combo attacks.

There is no discussion, it's just one person trying to force their views onto everyone else and then the opposing side attempting to do the same in the opposite direction. The threads don't go anywhere. The first and second post repeat for infinity.

Well, for example, look at your little discussion thread...

 

People will have negative complaints about the game.  ALL people won't like the same game.  In your "discussion" you bring up WoW and say this game is better in combat.  You have just brought the wrath of all the people that play WoW. 

 

I've noticed that the people who like the game have brought an elitist attitude to the discussion.  If people don't like the UI, then they are dumb for not trying to figure it out.  If people don't like the slow combat,  it's because they are WoW players who refuse to accept different combat styles. 

 

If people can discuss a game and what they like about it without the need to downplay another game, then I think the conversations would go a bit better.  But you, even in your example, degrade WoW.  That is not a good selling point for the game you like.

Uh huh. Now tell me how what you just said changes that fact that 8/10 threads about FFXIV here in some shape or form compare or bring up WoW? What you said in your second paragraph is how almost every single FFXIV complain or praise thread goes, which is what I said. And your third paragraph is pretty much exactly what I said. I don't see what point you're trying to make that is different from the one I stated above your post.

There is no discussion, it just comes down to elitist attitudes bashing people's opinions because they think their own is more correct.

The point I'm trying to make is that you, yourself, brought another game into the argument and state that some mechanics are better than that game.  A big NO NO when trying to prove your point.  Just state why you like the game.  You don't have to say the other person is stupid or a WoW player for not liking it.

Oh, I see. You didn't realize that those examples were examples of the kind of back and forth "discussions" that go on at this forum and not my personal views. I'm sorry I miscalculated the average intelligence of an MMORPG.com surfer.

As I said...people like you don't make the game sound appealing to anyone.  Degrading people is no way to sell a game.  If the average community of the game is like you...then I'll think I'll skip it.

I'm really starting to worry about you. I never made one statement in regards to my personal views about the game. I simply stated the common thread found here. I was never trying to, nor ever will try to, make the game sound appealing to anyone on this forum. Not to mention you called me arrogant as a direct result of your own arrogance. There's nothing else I can do for you. T_T

Your logic is and was flawed. Nothing there suggested it was my opinion, in fact one would have to go out of their way to make it seem as it were my opinion. You made an incorrect conclusion. Sorry I guess.

VirusDancer

Originally posted by junzo316

 

As I said...people like you don't make the game sound appealing to anyone.  Degrading people is no way to sell a game.  If the average community of the game is like you...then I'll think I'll skip it.

To an extent, that has been my overall gist in regard to FFXIV.  I was not put off by the people stating the "bad" things about the game, but it has pretty much been a case of To Hell With It based on those people that have been trying to defend or to tout the game...

...it gets to a point of having a difficult time trying to remember what the complaints actually were while reading through all the douche pundits supporting the game.

maskedtears

Originally posted by junzo316

 

As I said...people like you don't make the game sound appealing to anyone.  Degrading people is no way to sell a game.  If the average community of the game is like you...then I'll think I'll skip it.

I think you missed the point of the thread. Why are you assuming anyone is trying to honestly sell the game on this forum? People who dislike it dislike it. That's the way it is. People who like the game and the community don't really care what people think about it. Just like how you don't care about what the community is really like. 

 

However that's just an assumption based on the fact that you want to judge the lack of sales pitch from the community as a sign. 

Klizzi

Originally posted by maskedtears

Originally posted by junzo316

 

As I said...people like you don't make the game sound appealing to anyone.  Degrading people is no way to sell a game.  If the average community of the game is like you...then I'll think I'll skip it.

I think you missed the point of the thread. Why are you assuming anyone is trying to honestly sell the game on this forum? People who dislike it dislike it. That's the way it is. People who like the game and the community don't really care what people think about it. Just like how you don't care about what the community is really like. 

 

However that's just an assumption based on the fact that you want to judge the lack of sales pitch from the community as a sign. 

Because they're pushing for someone to say why they like the game so they can shoot down their opinions using their clearly superior minds and experience. It's too difficult for some people to grasp that something they don't like isn't the worst thing in the world.

maskedtears

Originally posted by Ozivois

Politics, politics, politics.

 

I was just talking to a friend yesterday about what is wrong with our country (USA) and why we are having trouble competing against Eastern industry.

 

The reason is because we value politics over work ethic around here too much.  Look at who is in charge of things where you work.  I would wager that most of the decision makers are part idiot, but mostly good at making their opinions sounds like the right ones.  I see alot of businesses failing because of stupid mistakes being made by the companies leaders and management, and the companies continue to hire and promote people who are good at politics but bad at the core of their job.

 

Our Amercian culture is becoming more and more engrained with the verbal politics, rhetoric, bullying and "smoke and mirrors".  Expect to see these values in practice in all these forums and anywhere else you see Americans communicating!

Sad but true. =(

 

 

Originally posted by colddog04

 

That's the issue. You should, from now on, expect people to automatically deliver the other side of the story when it isn't asked for.

Um... wait what? I said that I have a problem with people expecting me to give my side of the story when they didn't ask for it. Are you saying that from now on I should expect myself to automatically deliver my side of the story when it isn't asked for? 

 

I'm going to assume I don't understand. 

BeansnBread

Originally posted by maskedtears

Originally posted by Ozivois

Politics, politics, politics.

 

I was just talking to a friend yesterday about what is wrong with our country (USA) and why we are having trouble competing against Eastern industry.

 

The reason is because we value politics over work ethic around here too much.  Look at who is in charge of things where you work.  I would wager that most of the decision makers are part idiot, but mostly good at making their opinions sounds like the right ones.  I see alot of businesses failing because of stupid mistakes being made by the companies leaders and management, and the companies continue to hire and promote people who are good at politics but bad at the core of their job.

 

Our Amercian culture is becoming more and more engrained with the verbal politics, rhetoric, bullying and "smoke and mirrors".  Expect to see these values in practice in all these forums and anywhere else you see Americans communicating!

Sad but true. =(

I disagree.

 

I think it feels that way sometimes. But politics in the workplace has been going on in the US for as long as teh US has been a country. When it comes to economics, we seemed to do pretty well post World War 2.

 

Also, I am not willing to assume that office politics does not happen in other countries as much as it does in the US. Sounds like someone felt like their boss was stupid and therefor America is a place where the stupid people win.

junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

Originally posted by junzo316

Originally posted by Klizzi

"Why do you involve yourself in forums at all if you don't like the back and forthing of discussion which is why forums exist? It makes no sense."

Oh come on, show me one recent FFXIV complaint thread where it's a discussion. The whole point she's trying to get across is people aren't even stating opinions as opinions or discussing. One person makes a negative thread, then goes around to everyone else's thread and tells people who enjoy the game why they shouldn't.

The following is a depiction of every current FFXIV thread.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV.

Poster 2: Well, you shouldn't, because it sucks and is slow.

poster 1: No it's not, it's way better than WoW's.

Poster 2: Nah it sucks, it's too slow.

The way you're saying it is and the way it should be, but isn't.

Poster 1: I like the combat in FFXIV

Poster 2: I found it a little too slow for my tastes.

Poster 1: It's not as slow once you pick up on the chain and combo attacks.

There is no discussion, it's just one person trying to force their views onto everyone else and then the opposing side attempting to do the same in the opposite direction. The threads don't go anywhere. The first and second post repeat for infinity.

Well, for example, look at your little discussion thread...

 

People will have negative complaints about the game.  ALL people won't like the same game.  In your "discussion" you bring up WoW and say this game is better in combat.  You have just brought the wrath of all the people that play WoW. 

 

I've noticed that the people who like the game have brought an elitist attitude to the discussion.  If people don't like the UI, then they are dumb for not trying to figure it out.  If people don't like the slow combat,  it's because they are WoW players who refuse to accept different combat styles. 

 

If people can discuss a game and what they like about it without the need to downplay another game, then I think the conversations would go a bit better.  But you, even in your example, degrade WoW.  That is not a good selling point for the game you like.

Uh huh. Now tell me how what you just said changes that fact that 8/10 threads about FFXIV here in some shape or form compare or bring up WoW? What you said in your second paragraph is how almost every single FFXIV complain or praise thread goes, which is what I said. And your third paragraph is pretty much exactly what I said. I don't see what point you're trying to make that is different from the one I stated above your post.

There is no discussion, it just comes down to elitist attitudes bashing people's opinions because they think their own is more correct.

The point I'm trying to make is that you, yourself, brought another game into the argument and state that some mechanics are better than that game.  A big NO NO when trying to prove your point.  Just state why you like the game.  You don't have to say the other person is stupid or a WoW player for not liking it.

Oh, I see. You didn't realize that those examples were examples of the kind of back and forth "discussions" that go on at this forum and not my personal views. I'm sorry I miscalculated the average intelligence of an MMORPG.com surfer.

As I said...people like you don't make the game sound appealing to anyone.  Degrading people is no way to sell a game.  If the average community of the game is like you...then I'll think I'll skip it.

I'm really starting to worry about you. I never made one statement in regards to my personal views about the game. I simply stated the common thread found here. I was never trying to, nor ever will try, make the game sound appealing to anyone on this forum. Not to mention you called me arrogant as a direct result of your own arrogance. There's nothing else I can do for you. T_T

I never once stated anything about your arrogance.  Perhaps you assume to much.