So, instead of a review from an average modern-day MMO player, you would rather have a writer who the game was "made for." How is that any better?
First off, there's no such thing as the 'average modern-day MMO player," any more than there is such a thing as the 'average" person. It's a myth suting an overly simple view of the world.
Second, I shouldn't have to tell you that it's obviously a bad idea to review anything from the perspective of someone for whom that thing was never intended for. To review Final Fantasy XIV from the perspective of a person who would prefer World of Warcraft is like reviewing a stereo from the perspective of someone who is deaf. (Not a perfect analogy - I understand even deaf people can enjoy the feel of the vibrations.)
I don't think even Kotaku would pretend to call a "MMORPG Log" a proper review. I can tell, however, that this guy's not going to have a whole lot positive to say about it, it's pretty clear by what he writes that his expectations are in the wrong place.
What expectations should he have had? He went in for the story, found that it was utterly dull. He tried combat and found it okay, but boring. He then tried crafting and found it boring. He tried another character and it was the same.
I mean, maybe 9/10 MMORPG players that say this game sucks are just bloody idiots who were expecting a good game. What expectations did the people enjoying the game have? Did they just understand it would be unfinished, unpolished and akin to running your balls across a cheese grader and were thus satisfied?
The crafting sucks. The combat sucks. The gathering sucks. The story sucks. The translation to English sucks. The cut scenes suck and they're more frequent than the game play. The only people who are having fun with this game are the ones who never played anything better and thus never expected anything to be good.
The problem is when people like a game they feel everyone should like it as well. What they fail to understand is that not everyone will like the same thing.
'His expectations are in the wrong place' is a horrible defense for anything. Most people pick up a game based on reviews or other peoples opinions of the game. These people want to know the good and bad. Reading that article it was clear the guy was writing from the perspective of your average Joe Gamer, someone who might have seen an ad or the box sitting on a store shelf and wanted more info as well as other peoples takes on the game.
The only expectations someone should have about a game is if it's something they will like. If every review only focused on the positive or the opinions of fans, there would be a lot of people out there who would pick up the game, find out that it, in their eyes, is a horrible game and be stuck with a $50+ waste of money. People like the poster you quoted don't want others to have an opinion of their game because in some weird way it might hurt them. Simple fact is, I would rather have a review telling people the negatives, things that might keep them from buying the game off the bat, in hopes that I don't have to sit in the game and listen to people complain and moan about it while they use up their 30days.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
what attitude does everyone need to play ff14? the reviewer showed out his first impression to which MANY of people behind the fence will show.
tell us this speciall attitude. Am i not worthy now of playing the game because i posted this review?
Tune in till next week when i post the 2nd part. and so forth.
Basically the attitude is that you WANT to learn something new, rather than having all the negative internet feedback swimming through your head. Yes, it's a brand new release so it's buggy, yes it's complicated and feels a bit unfinished, yes the crafting is unforgiving. The best way to visualize FF14 is that it's a piece of art. When you go to an art gallery, everyone sees something different in a piece of art. Some will like it, some will love it, some will hate it.
It's a game the way square visioned it, but they'll fix bugs to make it as playable as they can. Bug-fixing takes time, every game has them, but the general feel of the game probably isn't going to change. Yet so many critiques are judging it based on the bugs that will undoubtedly be fixed. How silly is that to judge an mmo based on release bugs? Knock points down on the review for being released too early, but it shouldn't make or break a game, imo.
So, instead of a review from an average modern-day MMO player, you would rather have a writer who the game was "made for." How is that any better?
First off, there's no such thing as the 'average modern-day MMO player," any more than there is such a thing as the 'average" person. It's a myth suting an overly simple view of the world.
Second, I shouldn't have to tell you that it's obviously a bad idea to review anything from the perspective of someone for whom that thing was never intended for. To review Final Fantasy XIV from the perspective of a person who would prefer World of Warcraft is like reviewing a stereo from the perspective of someone who is deaf.
I disagree with you. I think it should be reviewed by whoever wants to review it. It is put upon the reader to decide whether or not the reviewer has similar views as their own. It works just like any other critic of any other thing. I think expecting a reviewer to automatically enjoy whatever they are reviewing before they review it is ludicrous.
And I find this particular reviewers concerns legitimate. This reviewer is going to give it a 4 week go. Most reviewers wouldn't give it that long a shot before they were done reviewing. It gives square an opportunity to shore up some of the inconsistencies that he perceives.
comon lets not avoid the question. once again what attitude is needed to play ff14?
Yeah, I don't ike being told I'm avoiding the question from the guy who apparently couldn't be bothered to read when I answered him the first time. Here, I'll make it really short, so you don't end up doing another monsterous block-quote:
That complexity is good, not something to malign.
That you don't need to be lead around, that some of the fun is in exploring and finding these things out for yourself.
That the point isn't the individual activities (mining, crafting, adventuring) but rather the greater significance outside of those activities (building into a player economy).
That investing effort into MMORPG isn't a bad thing, but rather something that helps make it worthwhile.
Originally posted by colddog04
I disagree with you. I think it should be reviewed by whoever wants to review it. It is put upon the reader to decide whether or not the reviewer has similar views as their own. It works just like any other critic of any other thing. I think expecting a reviewer to automatically enjoy whatever they are reviewing before they review it is ludicrous.
Yes, that would be ludicrious. But you missed the point. How to put it into words how silly it is to review something you have no intrest in? Lets try this:
Gene Siskel (film reviewer): Games cannot be art.
Whole World Of Gamers: WTF?
Gene Siskel (film reviewer): Okay, I was wrong to speak about something I have no interest in.
True story, google it.
It would seem that the point of reviews is to be objective about something you're knowledgable about. Due to the preconceived notions of this reviewer of FFXIV, it's clear he won't be objective. That is all.
So, instead of a review from an average modern-day MMO player, you would rather have a writer who the game was "made for." How is that any better?
First off, there's no such thing as the 'average modern-day MMO player," any more than there is such a thing as the 'average" person. It's a myth suting an overly simple view of the world.
Second, I shouldn't have to tell you that it's obviously a bad idea to review anything from the perspective of someone for whom that thing was never intended for. To review Final Fantasy XIV from the perspective of a person who would prefer World of Warcraft is like reviewing a stereo from the perspective of someone who is deaf. (Not a perfect analogy - I understand even deaf people can enjoy the feel of the vibrations.)
there are avarages, you just refuse to see it that way.
So tell me, where on the box of ff14 collectors and reg edition say this game is for the x type of player all others just should ignore.
Yeah it doesnt. Anyone can pick up the box. many final fantasy fans who may have never played an mmorpg will pick it up not knowing well what it is as well as many others. we posters are NOTHING compared to the avarage consumer. Yes i played closed beta and open, i followed the news of the game but that does NOT mean everyone will and it should NEVER be a requirement.
Everyone has a right to try the game out. WOW players or from any other game. Bashing on wow also does not make your points better as wow is indeed a good game. It pleases every one from pvpers who have their battle grounds and tournaments. the raiders who have their raids. The instant gratification people who have their dungeon finder and the pvers who have a vast world and tons of lore to enjoy. FF14 is fun in its own way , im getting it but not till its out on the ps3 giving the game time to be ironed out. Yet still i respect everyones opionion of the game and they all have the right to Like and Dislike the game
that wont change me from liking or disliking a game . if what other posters or reviewers didnt please your fandom why make such a big fuss why does it bother you so much what others think of the game you play, shouldnt this not be somthing to get ya pulling your hair over?
Some specifics on where I see he's already made up his mind about this game:
Final Fantasy XIV is an incredibly complex game. [...] The process was ridiculously complex.
At this point I was still struggling to make sense of my place in the world of Eorzea.
I was not aware of how this system worked, so initially I was confused. [...] Other players were having the same issue. Luckily we had some beta players on hand to set us straight.
Feeling lost, I head for bed.
Bored of combat and wanting to try something new, I purchased a pick from the Mining Guild and headed out into the lands surrounding the city to find my fortune. [...] At first mining frustrated me. [...] Mining is a complicated process.
That was a lot of work, and not particularly entertaining. I decided to try my hand at some crafts instead. [...] tred to alt-tab out of the game to consult such a website, but alt-tabbing crashed the game. Frustrated, I gave up.
I loged Fritti on long enough to take a couples videos of combat and mining. I try to find something to do, some driving motivation to continue, but I fail. After fooling about for an hour, I log off again.
Perhaps I've been spoiled by the user-friendly format of other massively-multiplayer online games, but I feel lost in Final Fantasy XIV. I'm used to being led about by quest after quest, but that's not how this game works. I'm used to having all the information I need at my fingertips, but so far FFXIV has fed me scraps and left me to my own devices.
I'm sure more experienced players could tell me what I am supposed to be doing. I just feel they shouldn't have to. This should be more intuitive. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
So, breaking that down, he hates the complexity, he's too used to not finding things out for himself, he's already bored of the all the activities in the game (combat, harvesting, crafting), he doesn't want to invest a lot of effort ("work") in the game, and already feels little-to-no motivation to play because apparently he requires constant incentive pointing him where to go.
It all points to one thing: this is not the kind of player the game was made for. He's gone into the game with all the wrong attitudes. I'm pretty sure the rest of this "review" will continue to nosedive - he already hates the game, he admits several times that he just doesn't get it, and how he expects to get through another 3 weeks of it is beyond me.
If I were hired by Blizzard to try to make the game look bad, this is exactly how I'd go about it: by appealing to the average World of Warcraft player's perpsective and painstakingly weave a compelling one-sided story over the period of four weeks just how silly it would be for them to even consider playing FFXIV.
Or, you know, he could be going for the perspective of the average player, not the 'omg i loves me FFXIV!!' player. His views are not as extremist as you try to make them sound, instead he's giving people a chance to see the game for what it is in the eyes of someone who might not have even heard of the game. No where on the box does the game state "This game is designed for players with this attitude or predilection toward a certain style of game play", so why should someone have to approach the game with any such state of mind?
Sure, if you sort of ignore the whole point of what I wrote that you quoted there where I clarify that it's clear he's gone into this "review" with expectations that will result him him to liking the game, and jump to the conclusion that the "average" player (mythical beast that they are) will definately have these same expectations, that's certainly a possibility.
As for me, I don't hold any aspirations to representing the people in their entirety by embodying averageness, partly because I lack the necessary omniescence such an approach would require, partly because it wouldn't be doing justice to individuals to streamline them out of the equation.
Originally posted by fyerwall
The log is in no way aimed at making people not like the game or even trying to convince people not to buy it. You, however seem to always try to convince people that anyone who has anything negative to say about the game is part of a larger conspiracy. You last paragraph even hints at the fact that Blizzard is hiring people to make the game look bad.
Whats one-sided is the way the die-hards of this game act when articles or opinions don't match their own. Is it really that hard to understand that just because you think the game is awesome many others may not agree?
Kindly ease off from attacking the individual who simply has a different opinion from you. If you can't address the issue, you've already lost. At the very least, if you're going to criticize me, do it in a way that doesn't make it look like you're jumping at shadows.
Originally posted by lzanon
wait what???? seriously what attitude are required to play this game???? seriously we have to look at a game with ciertian attitueds in order to enjoy the game?? Donno but hes getting paid for what he does and well frankly your not. hes gonna look at the game and COMPARE it to past experiences he has with mmorpgs. This is only the SOLO part as in not being part of the comunity lookup and next week we will see the next.
It's sort of a sad state of forums that, even though I've just written a giant message that specifically clarified what I meant by the reviewer needing the right attitude, even underlining and boldfacing the one sentence they needed to understand how that worked, it just gets ignored by somebody who follows it up asking me to write that message again. It's particularly annoying when they quoted the whole thing in doing so, as it indicates they apparently didn't read what they quoted.
I've learned that it's because they don't want an answer, they just want to argue. Sorry, I've outgrown this desire to mentally arm-wrestle with folk on forums, you're just going to have to try a little harder to understand what was written.
Not attacking you, just pointing out what you said in the post I quoted. What's funny though, is you telling me not to attack because someone has a different opinion, yet you are posting that the article is somehow skewed because the guy doesn't share your opinion...
There is no right expectation or attitude needed for playing a game. People expect a game to be fun, entertaining or accessible. Not everyone will like the game nor will they find every game accessible, entertaining or even fun. You want people like this to post their opinions, because someone, somewhere might share some or all of the same feelings toward the issues there people talk about. And if these people don't buy the game, thats less people you have clogging up their forums or ingame chats complaining about the game while burning up their 30 free days. These people might try the game later when there is a trial and find that they like/dislike the game without wasting money and might also be less inclined to hang around if they do in fact dislike it.
But as I stated, the article was aimed at your average player (which btw, are not mythical beasts) who might have seen the game on a shelf at Best Buy or from an ad in a magazine, etc. These people might want to know more about the game and what others think about it, both the good and the bad, before dropping money on something they cannot return once activated.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
comon lets not avoid the question. once again what attitude is needed to play ff14?
Yeah, I don't ike being told I'm avoiding the question from the guy who apparently couldn't be bothered to read when I answered him the first time. Here, I'll make it really short, so you don't end up doing another monsterous block-quote:
That complexity is good, not something to malign.
My problem is that I find it wholly un-complex. Yeah, it's confusing in the beginning, but there is not really a whole lot of complexity after you get used to it.
That you don't need to be lead around, that some of the fun is in exploring and finding these things out for yourself.
I feel like exploring is pointless in this game. I can look at every map and see everywhere I can go. I end up exploring by doing leves. Once I do get somewhere, that somewhere is almost completely pointless to be. The only thing I get out of it is the satisfaction of looking at a castle or something.
That the point isn't the individual activities (mining, crafting, adventuring) but rather the greater significance outside of those activities (building into a player economy).
I don't enjoy crafting. It could easily be argued that this game isn't for me because of that one simple fact. Too bad, really.
That investing effort into MMORPG isn't a bad thing, but rather something that helps make it worthwhile.
I've invested a ton of time into various MMORPGs. What matters is how much you enjoy that time.
I really don't see why the reviewer has to feel like you do before they review the game. Like you say, this game isn't for everybody. So the people that feel like the reviewer should walk away. Why knock the reviewer for not having the correct attitude before playing? It's a strange complaint to say the least.
comon lets not avoid the question. once again what attitude is needed to play ff14?
Yeah, I don't ike being told I'm avoiding the question from the guy who apparently couldn't be bothered to read when I answered him the first time. Here, I'll make it really short, so you don't end up doing another monsterous block-quote:
That complexity is good, not something to malign.
That you don't need to be lead around, that some of the fun is in exploring and finding these things out for yourself.
That the point isn't the individual activities (mining, crafting, adventuring) but rather the greater significance outside of those activities (building into a player economy).
That investing effort into MMORPG isn't a bad thing, but rather something that helps make it worthwhile.
Originally posted by colddog04
I disagree with you. I think it should be reviewed by whoever wants to review it. It is put upon the reader to decide whether or not the reviewer has similar views as their own. It works just like any other critic of any other thing. I think expecting a reviewer to automatically enjoy whatever they are reviewing before they review it is ludicrous.
Yes, that would be ludicrious. But you missed the point:
Gene Siskel (film reviewer): Games cannot be art.
Whole World Of Gamers: WTF?
Gene Siskel (film reviewer): Okay, I was wrong to speak about something I have no interest in.
The point of reviews is to be objective about something your knowledgable about. Due to the preconceived notions of this reviewer of FFXIV, it's clear he won't be objective. That is all.
and yet you dismiss his willingless to learn, admiting he is seeing the game from one prespective and should look at in another. Lets not forget that he even wants to try out getting a linkshell and grouping up with others.
IS THAT NOT SOMTHING YOU WANT AND HAVE WENT AGAINST OTHERS THAT FF14 IS A COMMUNITY GAME?
the reviewer is giving it a shot, those were his 1st impressions no matter how you want to point it out, hes with the right attitude but you try to bend it around and use slippery slopes to divert attention of what you try to point out as negitive.
if the reviewer is going to get into a linkshell, and group up, thus socialize does that not mean hes aiming to learn the game learn from others on things in the game hes not well versed at?
First off, there's no such thing as the 'average modern-day MMO player," any more than there is such a thing as the 'average" person. It's a myth suting an overly simple view of the world.
there are avarages, you just refuse to see it that way.
[He probably wrote other things, but at this point I lost any motivation to read them.]
Completely unreceptive to what I have to say, hmm? Your way or the highway, eh?
Yes, we're done. I hope you've enjoyed this little talk, because I have better things to do than argue with a wall.
Originally posted by fyerwall
Kindly ease off from attacking the individual who simply has a different opinion from you. If you can't address the issue, you've already lost. At the very least, if you're going to criticize me, do it in a way that doesn't make it look like you're jumping at shadows.
Not attacking you, just pointing out what you said in the post I quoted. What's funny though, is you telling me not to attack because someone has a different opinion, yet you are posting that the article is somehow skewed because the guy doesn't share your opinion...
[He probably wrote other things, but given that it was based on this false premise, it was pointless to read]
No, via a painstaking bulleted list, I was merely pointing out that he had expressed sentiment which made it clear he wasn't in the intended audience for the game. This is different from having a differing opinon. No, I'm not going to explain to you how it is if different. If you have to ask, I'd be explaining it to someone who can't understand.
The game is in store shelves for everyone to buy and uses an IP that is widely known by millions of people, I'd say that qualifies as "for everybody". The fact that a lot of people don't like it is a separate issue.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized" "The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
I disagree with you. I think it should be reviewed by whoever wants to review it. It is put upon the reader to decide whether or not the reviewer has similar views as their own. It works just like any other critic of any other thing. I think expecting a reviewer to automatically enjoy whatever they are reviewing before they review it is ludicrous.
Yes, that would be ludicrious. But you missed the point. How to put it into words how silly it is to review something you have no intrest in? Lets try this:
Gene Siskel (film reviewer): Games cannot be art.
Whole World Of Gamers: WTF?
Gene Siskel (film reviewer): Okay, I was wrong to speak about something I have no interest in.
True story, google it.
It would seem that the point of reviews is to be objective about something you're knowledgable about. Due to the preconceived notions of this reviewer of FFXIV, it's clear he won't be objective. That is all.
This reviewer is extremely knowledgeable in the MMORRPG genre. He is reviewing based on his extensive knowledge of MMORPGs. What are you getting at here? Do you accuse the reviewer of only liking WoW-style games? (Which is completely baseless).
His review looks fine to me. It doesn't look like he is being overly critical or biased about anything.
First off, there's no such thing as the 'average modern-day MMO player," any more than there is such a thing as the 'average" person. It's a myth suting an overly simple view of the world.
there are avarages, you just refuse to see it that way.
[He probably wrote other things, but at this point I lost any motivation to read them.]
Completely unreceptive to what I have to say, hmm? Your way or the highway, eh?
Yes, we're done. I hope you've enjoyed this little talk, because I have better things to do than argue with a wall.
Originally posted by fyerwall
Kindly ease off from attacking the individual who simply has a different opinion from you. If you can't address the issue, you've already lost. At the very least, if you're going to criticize me, do it in a way that doesn't make it look like you're jumping at shadows.
Not attacking you, just pointing out what you said in the post I quoted. What's funny though, is you telling me not to attack because someone has a different opinion, yet you are posting that the article is somehow skewed because the guy doesn't share your opinion...
[He probably wrote other things, but given that it was based on this false premise, it was pointless to read]
No, via a painstaking bulleted list, I was merely pointing out that he had expressed sentiment which made it clear he wasn't in the intended audience for the game. This is different from having a differing opinon. No, I'm not going to explain to you how it is if different. If you have to ask, I'd be explaining it to someone who can't understand.
Then why you keep posting. btw its basicly aloooot vs you. geeee i wonder why. you never asked yourself that?
I disagree with you. I think it should be reviewed by whoever wants to review it. It is put upon the reader to decide whether or not the reviewer has similar views as their own. It works just like any other critic of any other thing. I think expecting a reviewer to automatically enjoy whatever they are reviewing before they review it is ludicrous.
Yes, that would be ludicrious. But you missed the point. How to put it into words how silly it is to review something you have no intrest in? Lets try this:
Gene Siskel (film reviewer): Games cannot be art.
Whole World Of Gamers: WTF?
Gene Siskel (film reviewer): Okay, I was wrong to speak about something I have no interest in.
True story, google it.
It would seem that the point of reviews is to be objective about something you're knowledgable about. Due to the preconceived notions of this reviewer of FFXIV, it's clear he won't be objective. That is all.
This reviewer is extremely knowledgeable in the MMORRPG genre. He is reviewing based on his extensive knowledge of MMORPGs. What are you getting at here? Do you accuse the reviewer of only liking WoW-style games? (Which is completely baseless).
His review looks fine to me. It doesn't look like he is being overly critical or biased about anything.
It's not full of rainbows and cookies, so the FFFan brigade has to come tell us why it's a meaningless review. Negative review of FFXIV?! To the forums to tell everybody how the reviewer is wrong! He can't possibly review the game because it wasn't made for him. His mindset (that nobody really knows) is all wrong! I thought the guys at AoC launch were bad about this type of thing, but they can't compare to the FFXIV fanbois.
Do you accuse the reviewer of only liking WoW-style games? (Which is completely baseless).
Yes, I do, on the grounds that, had you read the original bulleted point list I made, it's pretty clear he expressed more than enough sentiments to support the base that he only likes WoW-style games.
Originally posted by lzanon
Then why you keep posting. btw its basicly aloooot vs you. geeee i wonder why. you never asked yourself that?
Sure, lets go with popular opinion = truth. Worked for Nazi Germany. Hello Godwin's Law, nice to see you again.
Although, truth be told, it's a little early yet to say if his and/or your opinion is truly the popular opinion.
First off, there's no such thing as the 'average modern-day MMO player," any more than there is such a thing as the 'average" person. It's a myth suting an overly simple view of the world.
there are avarages, you just refuse to see it that way.
Completely unreceptive to what I have to say, hmm? Yes, we're done. I hope you've enjoyed this little talk, because I have better things to do than argue with a wall.
Originally posted by fyerwall
Kindly ease off from attacking the individual who simply has a different opinion from you. If you can't address the issue, you've already lost. At the very least, if you're going to criticize me, do it in a way that doesn't make it look like you're jumping at shadows.
Not attacking you, just pointing out what you said in the post I quoted. What's funny though, is you telling me not to attack because someone has a different opinion, yet you are posting that the article is somehow skewed because the guy doesn't share your opinion...
No, via a painstaking bulleted list, Iwas clearly pointing out was that he wasn't in the intended audience for the game. This is different from having a differing opinon. No, I'm not going to explain to you how it is if different. If you have to ask, I'd be explaining it to someone who can't understand.
Nice deflection.
But still, you make little to no sense. The game is an MMO. It is sold as an MMO. The box nowhere states that it is aimed at specific player type.
Who is this so called intended audience?
Where does it state anywhere in the design notes of the game that it is aimed at this 'intended audience'?
last I checked SE made an MMO that was aimed at MMO players, and it was up to those players to find out for themselves if the game was meant for them or not. I am sorry to say that, bullet points or not, it is an opinion (your opinion that is) that he wasn't the intended audience.
So unless you can point out where it is stated that this game is for a specific 'intended audience' then I feel that you might be the someone who can't understand.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Then why you keep posting. btw its basicly aloooot vs you. geeee i wonder why. you never asked yourself that?
Sure, lets go with popular opinion = truth. Worked for Nazi Germany. Hello Godwin's Law, nice to see you again.
Originally posted by colddog04
Do you accuse the reviewer of only liking WoW-style games? (Which is completely baseless).
Yes, I do, on the grounds that, had you read the original bulleted point list I made, it's pretty clear he expressed more than enough sentiments to support the base that he only likes WoW-style games.
Huh. Cool. At least I now know where your argument comes from. I think it's completely baseless and without merit, but at least I know.
But still, you make little to no sense. The game is an MMO. It is sold as an MMO. The box nowhere states that it is aimed at specific player type.
Who is this so called intended audience?
Where does it state anywhere in the design notes of the game that it is aimed at this 'intended audience'?
last I checked SE made an MMO that was aimed at MMO players, and it was up to those players to find out for themselves if the game was meant for them or not. I am sorry to say that, bullet points or not, it is an opinion (your opinion that is) that he wasn't the intended audience.
So unless you can point out where it is stated that this game is for a specific 'intended audience' then I feel that you might be the someone who can't understand.
Okay, so apparently you want to argue all MMORPGs are intended for the same audience.
Have fun with that.
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Sure, lets go with popular opinion = truth. Worked for Nazi Germany. Hello Godwin's Law, nice to see you again.
Originally posted by colddog04
Do you accuse the reviewer of only liking WoW-style games? (Which is completely baseless).
Yes, I do, on the grounds that, had you read the original bulleted point list I made, it's pretty clear he expressed more than enough sentiments to support the base that he only likes WoW-style games.
Huh. Cool. At least I now know where your argument comes from. I think it's completely baseless and without merit, but at least I know.
And I am remdined why I should never bother with explaining myself on a forum. Even if it's something like a clear, bulleted list, a significant number of posters are just going to chuck out the window anything they don't want to agree with.
Do you accuse the reviewer of only liking WoW-style games? (Which is completely baseless).
Yes, I do, on the grounds that, had you read the original bulleted point list I made, it's pretty clear he expressed more than enough sentiments to support the base that he only likes WoW-style games.
Originally posted by lzanon
Then why you keep posting. btw its basicly aloooot vs you. geeee i wonder why. you never asked yourself that?
Sure, lets go with popular opinion = truth. Worked for Nazi Germany. Hello Godwin's Law, nice to see you again.
Although, truth be told, it's a little early yet to say if his and/or your opinion is truly the popular opinion.
oh more slippery slopes. you know those only work so far. you said it yourself its early yet you attempted to bash and disregard the reviewers and many other opinions of the game. btw who are you? how do you know perfectly well what type of mmorpgs the reviewer likes or dislikes. you know him. you spent years reaserching every moment of playtime he has put into mmorpgs and other games to make a deciding factor or are you just pointing out what is bait for you to use to make out a point out of his review. ?
But still, you make little to no sense. The game is an MMO. It is sold as an MMO. The box nowhere states that it is aimed at specific player type.
Who is this so called intended audience?
Where does it state anywhere in the design notes of the game that it is aimed at this 'intended audience'?
last I checked SE made an MMO that was aimed at MMO players, and it was up to those players to find out for themselves if the game was meant for them or not. I am sorry to say that, bullet points or not, it is an opinion (your opinion that is) that he wasn't the intended audience.
So unless you can point out where it is stated that this game is for a specific 'intended audience' then I feel that you might be the someone who can't understand.
Okay, so apparently you want to argue all MMORPGs are intended for the same audience.
Have fun with that.
MMO's are intended for whomever wants to play them. Ultimately it's up to the player to decide if a game is for them or not. I have seen people who hated MMOs pick up a game like LOTRO and suddenly love them. I have friends who always bashed PvP centric MMO's start playing a game and suddenly enjoy PvP.
But again, point out where it states there is a specific audience for this game.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
But still, you make little to no sense. The game is an MMO. It is sold as an MMO. The box nowhere states that it is aimed at specific player type.
Who is this so called intended audience?
Where does it state anywhere in the design notes of the game that it is aimed at this 'intended audience'?
last I checked SE made an MMO that was aimed at MMO players, and it was up to those players to find out for themselves if the game was meant for them or not. I am sorry to say that, bullet points or not, it is an opinion (your opinion that is) that he wasn't the intended audience.
So unless you can point out where it is stated that this game is for a specific 'intended audience' then I feel that you might be the someone who can't understand.
Okay, so apparently you want to argue all MMORPGs are intended for the same audience.
Have fun with that.
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Sure, lets go with popular opinion = truth. Worked for Nazi Germany. Hello Godwin's Law, nice to see you again.
Originally posted by colddog04
Do you accuse the reviewer of only liking WoW-style games? (Which is completely baseless).
Yes, I do, on the grounds that, had you read the original bulleted point list I made, it's pretty clear he expressed more than enough sentiments to support the base that he only likes WoW-style games.
Huh. Cool. At least I now know where your argument comes from. I think it's completely baseless and without merit, but at least I know.
And I am remdined why I should never bother with explaining myself. Even if it's something like a clear, bulleted list, a significant number of posters are just going to chuck out the window anything they don't want to agree with.
I actually already went over your bulleted list. You probably just didn't read the response. Sooo, I guess I am reminded why I should never bother explaining myself...
oh more slippery slopes. you know those only work so far. you said it yourself its early yet you attempted to bash and disregard the reviewers and many other opinions of the game. btw who are you? how do you know perfectly well what type of mmorpgs the reviewer likes or dislikes. you know him. you spent years reaserching every moment of playtime he has put into mmorpgs and other games to make a deciding factor or are you just pointing out what is bait for you to use to make out a point out of his review. ?
I'm just going to be flat out honest here: I haven't got a single post from you on this thread that has indicated you've either read a single thing I wrote nor even tried to challenge yoru existing beliefs. It's really put me in a sour mood to have anything to do with you, so I'm just going to add you to ignore now. You can call that a copout if you want.
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Sure, lets go with popular opinion = truth. Worked for Nazi Germany. Hello Godwin's Law, nice to see you again.
Originally posted by colddog04
Do you accuse the reviewer of only liking WoW-style games? (Which is completely baseless).
Yes, I do, on the grounds that, had you read the original bulleted point list I made, it's pretty clear he expressed more than enough sentiments to support the base that he only likes WoW-style games.
Huh. Cool. At least I now know where your argument comes from. I think it's completely baseless and without merit, but at least I know.
And I am remdined why I should never bother with explaining myself. Even if it's something like a clear, bulleted list, a significant number of posters are just going to chuck out the window anything they don't want to agree with.
I actually already went over your bulleted list. You probably just didn't read the response. Sooo, I guess I am reminded why I should never bother explaining myself...
You mean this? That was the wrong one. I meant the original bulleted list referring to all the points that supported the idea he was in the wrong audience, not the second bulleted list that explained some of the expectations a FFXIV player needs to have. That you're explaining to me that your opinions differed on the second list doesn't particularly matter, it just means that you, too, are not in the intended audience for the game.
Originally posted by fyerwall
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Originally posted by fyerwall
Nice deflection.
But still, you make little to no sense. The game is an MMO. It is sold as an MMO. The box nowhere states that it is aimed at specific player type.
Who is this so called intended audience?
Where does it state anywhere in the design notes of the game that it is aimed at this 'intended audience'?
last I checked SE made an MMO that was aimed at MMO players, and it was up to those players to find out for themselves if the game was meant for them or not. I am sorry to say that, bullet points or not, it is an opinion (your opinion that is) that he wasn't the intended audience.
So unless you can point out where it is stated that this game is for a specific 'intended audience' then I feel that you might be the someone who can't understand.
Okay, so apparently you want to argue all MMORPGs are intended for the same audience.
Have fun with that.
But again, point out where it states there is a specific audience for this game.
I believe this should be self-evident that any individual instance of entertainment has an intended audience, MMORPGs included, so no, I won't bother to point this out for you.
oh more slippery slopes. you know those only work so far. you said it yourself its early yet you attempted to bash and disregard the reviewers and many other opinions of the game. btw who are you? how do you know perfectly well what type of mmorpgs the reviewer likes or dislikes. you know him. you spent years reaserching every moment of playtime he has put into mmorpgs and other games to make a deciding factor or are you just pointing out what is bait for you to use to make out a point out of his review. ?
I'm just going to be flat out honest here: I haven't got a single post from you on this thread that has indicated you've either read a single thing I wrote nor even tried to challenge yoru existing beliefs, so I'm just going to add you to ignore now. You can call that a copout if you want.
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Sure, lets go with popular opinion = truth. Worked for Nazi Germany. Hello Godwin's Law, nice to see you again.
Originally posted by colddog04
Do you accuse the reviewer of only liking WoW-style games? (Which is completely baseless).
Yes, I do, on the grounds that, had you read the original bulleted point list I made, it's pretty clear he expressed more than enough sentiments to support the base that he only likes WoW-style games.
Huh. Cool. At least I now know where your argument comes from. I think it's completely baseless and without merit, but at least I know.
And I am remdined why I should never bother with explaining myself. Even if it's something like a clear, bulleted list, a significant number of posters are just going to chuck out the window anything they don't want to agree with.
I actually already went over your bulleted list. You probably just didn't read the response. Sooo, I guess I am reminded why I should never bother explaining myself...
You mean this? That was the wrong one. I meant the original bulleted list referring to all the points that supported the idea he was biased, not the second bulleted list that explained some of the expectations a FFXIV player needs to have.
Yay i guess i win then. /ignore me all you want its your choice.
im not exactly swayed away but your awsome bulliten capabilities as i can clearly see what your true intentions are. sadly they failed as you may end up ignoring many others as the thread builds up momentum.
Its clear that everyone has their right to post their opinion or even write a review of any game of choice. to bash someone elses opinion because it meet yours is just plain wrong.
the reviewer has the right attitude to go to the game, you failed to mention the special attitude needed for this game. you give more slippery slopes ever given in a rethoric class.
You mean this? That was the wrong one. I meant the original bulleted list referring to all the points that supported the idea he was biased, not the second bulleted list that explained some of the expectations a FFXIV player needs to have.
Yeeeahh... Anyway, I disagree with you. I think the reviewer is being completely fair and I believe that most people that read it will agree. So, if anyone is on the fence, I think this would be a good review to keep an eye on in the following weeks to help make your decision. It does look like they are trying to be more comprehensive than most.
Comments
First off, there's no such thing as the 'average modern-day MMO player," any more than there is such a thing as the 'average" person. It's a myth suting an overly simple view of the world.
Second, I shouldn't have to tell you that it's obviously a bad idea to review anything from the perspective of someone for whom that thing was never intended for. To review Final Fantasy XIV from the perspective of a person who would prefer World of Warcraft is like reviewing a stereo from the perspective of someone who is deaf. (Not a perfect analogy - I understand even deaf people can enjoy the feel of the vibrations.)
The problem is when people like a game they feel everyone should like it as well. What they fail to understand is that not everyone will like the same thing.
'His expectations are in the wrong place' is a horrible defense for anything. Most people pick up a game based on reviews or other peoples opinions of the game. These people want to know the good and bad. Reading that article it was clear the guy was writing from the perspective of your average Joe Gamer, someone who might have seen an ad or the box sitting on a store shelf and wanted more info as well as other peoples takes on the game.
The only expectations someone should have about a game is if it's something they will like. If every review only focused on the positive or the opinions of fans, there would be a lot of people out there who would pick up the game, find out that it, in their eyes, is a horrible game and be stuck with a $50+ waste of money. People like the poster you quoted don't want others to have an opinion of their game because in some weird way it might hurt them. Simple fact is, I would rather have a review telling people the negatives, things that might keep them from buying the game off the bat, in hopes that I don't have to sit in the game and listen to people complain and moan about it while they use up their 30days.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Basically the attitude is that you WANT to learn something new, rather than having all the negative internet feedback swimming through your head. Yes, it's a brand new release so it's buggy, yes it's complicated and feels a bit unfinished, yes the crafting is unforgiving. The best way to visualize FF14 is that it's a piece of art. When you go to an art gallery, everyone sees something different in a piece of art. Some will like it, some will love it, some will hate it.
It's a game the way square visioned it, but they'll fix bugs to make it as playable as they can. Bug-fixing takes time, every game has them, but the general feel of the game probably isn't going to change. Yet so many critiques are judging it based on the bugs that will undoubtedly be fixed. How silly is that to judge an mmo based on release bugs? Knock points down on the review for being released too early, but it shouldn't make or break a game, imo.
I disagree with you. I think it should be reviewed by whoever wants to review it. It is put upon the reader to decide whether or not the reviewer has similar views as their own. It works just like any other critic of any other thing. I think expecting a reviewer to automatically enjoy whatever they are reviewing before they review it is ludicrous.
And I find this particular reviewers concerns legitimate. This reviewer is going to give it a 4 week go. Most reviewers wouldn't give it that long a shot before they were done reviewing. It gives square an opportunity to shore up some of the inconsistencies that he perceives.
Yeah, I don't ike being told I'm avoiding the question from the guy who apparently couldn't be bothered to read when I answered him the first time. Here, I'll make it really short, so you don't end up doing another monsterous block-quote:
That complexity is good, not something to malign.
That you don't need to be lead around, that some of the fun is in exploring and finding these things out for yourself.
That the point isn't the individual activities (mining, crafting, adventuring) but rather the greater significance outside of those activities (building into a player economy).
That investing effort into MMORPG isn't a bad thing, but rather something that helps make it worthwhile.
Yes, that would be ludicrious. But you missed the point. How to put it into words how silly it is to review something you have no intrest in? Lets try this:
Gene Siskel (film reviewer): Games cannot be art.
Whole World Of Gamers: WTF?
Gene Siskel (film reviewer): Okay, I was wrong to speak about something I have no interest in.
True story, google it.
It would seem that the point of reviews is to be objective about something you're knowledgable about. Due to the preconceived notions of this reviewer of FFXIV, it's clear he won't be objective. That is all.
Everything Geldonyetich said is spot on.
The rest of you can stay in WoW or whatever game you are playing. That should fix your problem with FFXIV.
Good day now! Servers are about to go back up.
there are avarages, you just refuse to see it that way.
So tell me, where on the box of ff14 collectors and reg edition say this game is for the x type of player all others just should ignore.
Yeah it doesnt. Anyone can pick up the box. many final fantasy fans who may have never played an mmorpg will pick it up not knowing well what it is as well as many others. we posters are NOTHING compared to the avarage consumer. Yes i played closed beta and open, i followed the news of the game but that does NOT mean everyone will and it should NEVER be a requirement.
Everyone has a right to try the game out. WOW players or from any other game. Bashing on wow also does not make your points better as wow is indeed a good game. It pleases every one from pvpers who have their battle grounds and tournaments. the raiders who have their raids. The instant gratification people who have their dungeon finder and the pvers who have a vast world and tons of lore to enjoy. FF14 is fun in its own way , im getting it but not till its out on the ps3 giving the game time to be ironed out. Yet still i respect everyones opionion of the game and they all have the right to Like and Dislike the game
that wont change me from liking or disliking a game . if what other posters or reviewers didnt please your fandom why make such a big fuss why does it bother you so much what others think of the game you play, shouldnt this not be somthing to get ya pulling your hair over?
Not attacking you, just pointing out what you said in the post I quoted. What's funny though, is you telling me not to attack because someone has a different opinion, yet you are posting that the article is somehow skewed because the guy doesn't share your opinion...
There is no right expectation or attitude needed for playing a game. People expect a game to be fun, entertaining or accessible. Not everyone will like the game nor will they find every game accessible, entertaining or even fun. You want people like this to post their opinions, because someone, somewhere might share some or all of the same feelings toward the issues there people talk about. And if these people don't buy the game, thats less people you have clogging up their forums or ingame chats complaining about the game while burning up their 30 free days. These people might try the game later when there is a trial and find that they like/dislike the game without wasting money and might also be less inclined to hang around if they do in fact dislike it.
But as I stated, the article was aimed at your average player (which btw, are not mythical beasts) who might have seen the game on a shelf at Best Buy or from an ad in a magazine, etc. These people might want to know more about the game and what others think about it, both the good and the bad, before dropping money on something they cannot return once activated.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I really don't see why the reviewer has to feel like you do before they review the game. Like you say, this game isn't for everybody. So the people that feel like the reviewer should walk away. Why knock the reviewer for not having the correct attitude before playing? It's a strange complaint to say the least.
and yet you dismiss his willingless to learn, admiting he is seeing the game from one prespective and should look at in another. Lets not forget that he even wants to try out getting a linkshell and grouping up with others.
IS THAT NOT SOMTHING YOU WANT AND HAVE WENT AGAINST OTHERS THAT FF14 IS A COMMUNITY GAME?
the reviewer is giving it a shot, those were his 1st impressions no matter how you want to point it out, hes with the right attitude but you try to bend it around and use slippery slopes to divert attention of what you try to point out as negitive.
if the reviewer is going to get into a linkshell, and group up, thus socialize does that not mean hes aiming to learn the game learn from others on things in the game hes not well versed at?
Completely unreceptive to what I have to say, hmm? Your way or the highway, eh?
Yes, we're done. I hope you've enjoyed this little talk, because I have better things to do than argue with a wall.
No, via a painstaking bulleted list, I was merely pointing out that he had expressed sentiment which made it clear he wasn't in the intended audience for the game. This is different from having a differing opinon. No, I'm not going to explain to you how it is if different. If you have to ask, I'd be explaining it to someone who can't understand.
The game is in store shelves for everyone to buy and uses an IP that is widely known by millions of people, I'd say that qualifies as "for everybody". The fact that a lot of people don't like it is a separate issue.
"I'm not cheap I'm incredibly subconsciously financially optimized"
"The worst part of censorship is ------------------"
This reviewer is extremely knowledgeable in the MMORRPG genre. He is reviewing based on his extensive knowledge of MMORPGs. What are you getting at here? Do you accuse the reviewer of only liking WoW-style games? (Which is completely baseless).
His review looks fine to me. It doesn't look like he is being overly critical or biased about anything.
Then why you keep posting.
btw its basicly aloooot vs you. geeee i wonder why. you never asked yourself that?
It's not full of rainbows and cookies, so the FFFan brigade has to come tell us why it's a meaningless review. Negative review of FFXIV?! To the forums to tell everybody how the reviewer is wrong! He can't possibly review the game because it wasn't made for him. His mindset (that nobody really knows) is all wrong! I thought the guys at AoC launch were bad about this type of thing, but they can't compare to the FFXIV fanbois.
Yes, I do, on the grounds that, had you read the original bulleted point list I made, it's pretty clear he expressed more than enough sentiments to support the base that he only likes WoW-style games.
Sure, lets go with popular opinion = truth. Worked for Nazi Germany. Hello Godwin's Law, nice to see you again.
Although, truth be told, it's a little early yet to say if his and/or your opinion is truly the popular opinion.
Nice deflection.
But still, you make little to no sense. The game is an MMO. It is sold as an MMO. The box nowhere states that it is aimed at specific player type.
Who is this so called intended audience?
Where does it state anywhere in the design notes of the game that it is aimed at this 'intended audience'?
last I checked SE made an MMO that was aimed at MMO players, and it was up to those players to find out for themselves if the game was meant for them or not. I am sorry to say that, bullet points or not, it is an opinion (your opinion that is) that he wasn't the intended audience.
So unless you can point out where it is stated that this game is for a specific 'intended audience' then I feel that you might be the someone who can't understand.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Huh. Cool. At least I now know where your argument comes from. I think it's completely baseless and without merit, but at least I know.
Okay, so apparently you want to argue all MMORPGs are intended for the same audience.
Have fun with that.
And I am remdined why I should never bother with explaining myself on a forum. Even if it's something like a clear, bulleted list, a significant number of posters are just going to chuck out the window anything they don't want to agree with.
oh more slippery slopes. you know those only work so far. you said it yourself its early yet you attempted to bash and disregard the reviewers and many other opinions of the game. btw who are you? how do you know perfectly well what type of mmorpgs the reviewer likes or dislikes. you know him. you spent years reaserching every moment of playtime he has put into mmorpgs and other games to make a deciding factor or are you just pointing out what is bait for you to use to make out a point out of his review. ?
MMO's are intended for whomever wants to play them. Ultimately it's up to the player to decide if a game is for them or not. I have seen people who hated MMOs pick up a game like LOTRO and suddenly love them. I have friends who always bashed PvP centric MMO's start playing a game and suddenly enjoy PvP.
But again, point out where it states there is a specific audience for this game.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I actually already went over your bulleted list. You probably just didn't read the response. Sooo, I guess I am reminded why I should never bother explaining myself...
I'm just going to be flat out honest here: I haven't got a single post from you on this thread that has indicated you've either read a single thing I wrote nor even tried to challenge yoru existing beliefs. It's really put me in a sour mood to have anything to do with you, so I'm just going to add you to ignore now. You can call that a copout if you want.
You mean this? That was the wrong one. I meant the original bulleted list referring to all the points that supported the idea he was in the wrong audience, not the second bulleted list that explained some of the expectations a FFXIV player needs to have. That you're explaining to me that your opinions differed on the second list doesn't particularly matter, it just means that you, too, are not in the intended audience for the game.
I believe this should be self-evident that any individual instance of entertainment has an intended audience, MMORPGs included, so no, I won't bother to point this out for you.
Yay i guess i win then. /ignore me all you want its your choice.
im not exactly swayed away but your awsome bulliten capabilities as i can clearly see what your true intentions are. sadly they failed as you may end up ignoring many others as the thread builds up momentum.
Its clear that everyone has their right to post their opinion or even write a review of any game of choice. to bash someone elses opinion because it meet yours is just plain wrong.
the reviewer has the right attitude to go to the game, you failed to mention the special attitude needed for this game. you give more slippery slopes ever given in a rethoric class.
Yeeeahh... Anyway, I disagree with you. I think the reviewer is being completely fair and I believe that most people that read it will agree. So, if anyone is on the fence, I think this would be a good review to keep an eye on in the following weeks to help make your decision. It does look like they are trying to be more comprehensive than most.