Yay i guess i win then. /ignore me all you want its your choice.
Originally posted by colddog04
Yeeeahh... Anyway, I disagree with you. I think the reviewer is being completely fair and I believe that most people that read it will agree. So, if anyone is on the fence, I think this would be a good review to keep an eye on in the following weeks to help make your decision. It does look like they are trying to be more comprehensive than most.
Yay, the loose ends are tying up nicely.
Izanon "wins," which I knew was his goal to begin with. The thing, I've learned a thing or two about message boards over the decades, and perhaps one of the more important things is this: if it's your goal to win an argument, it's also your goal to disagree with the other guy. The funny thing is, it's not that hard to invent reasons to disagree, perpetually, forever. The usual warning indicator I look for is when they're not particularly paying attention to what I wrote, due to it being a whole lot more convenient to ignore them for purposes of inventing reasons to disagree. This is why I had to break it off: meaning no disrespect, but when I notice you're operating in that mode, it's simply futile for me to continue.
Colddog04's opinion remains his opinion based off of the importance of opinons in his mind. Right. Now, I can respect that, but when it's reached the point where you can't tell the difference between respecting opinions and identifying where bias will make for an unobjective review, you will be unable to see my point so long as that state remains.
Fyrewall hasn't posted yet, but I'm pretty sure what he'd like to do is to continue to argue that I need to prove there's such a thing as specific audiences different MMOPGs are intended for. I've already explained why this is ridiculous, but that has fallen on deaf ears. Perhaps one day in the near future, when he's reading something a MMORPG developer wrote, and notices references to "audiences" and "niche" or words like "casual" or "hardcore" being tossed about, it will click that this is actually what they were referring to, that they actually do intend to capture specific audiences, that different MMORPGs appeal to different people because it's more likely to generate players than trying to compete with established MMORPGs. However, it doesn't seem like he's in the mood to hear that from me, so...
It may seem I'm leaving these people with less-than-satisfactory resolutions. However, the way I see it, this lack of satisfaction comes from each one of them not particularly wanting to see things from my viewpoint. All I did was take several passages out of the original article that I felt clearly indicated how it is the reviewer had differing expectations from a the demographic of a player who is likely to enjoy this game. Somehow, it ended up in a number of odd tangents that had nothing to do with that.
The only way this could be resolved with a satisfactory resolution would be if there was greater effort expended in understanding what I was getting at. If they could shake this idea that I'm deliberately spouting falsehoods, what I'm writing makes perfect sense, and from there invest some of their creativity in understanding how what i wrote works instead of how I wrote doesn't work.
Unfortunately, it seems to be easier to disagree than agree. It's been my experience that explaining myself to anyone whose goal is to disagree will only give them more things to disagree with. On the other hand, were they actually attempting to agree, then my explainations would have worked as clarification instead of further obfuscatation.
Yay i guess i win then. /ignore me all you want its your choice.
Originally posted by colddog04
Yeeeahh... Anyway, I disagree with you. I think the reviewer is being completely fair and I believe that most people that read it will agree. So, if anyone is on the fence, I think this would be a good review to keep an eye on in the following weeks to help make your decision. It does look like they are trying to be more comprehensive than most.
Yay, the loose ends are tying up nicely. Izanon "wins," and Colddog04 opinion remains his opinion based off of the importance of opinons in his mind. Moving on...
Fahey's experience kind of mirrors mine so far. Looking to see what this weekend brings as I seek out a linkshell to join.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
oh more slippery slopes. you know those only work so far. you said it yourself its early yet you attempted to bash and disregard the reviewers and many other opinions of the game. btw who are you? how do you know perfectly well what type of mmorpgs the reviewer likes or dislikes. you know him. you spent years reaserching every moment of playtime he has put into mmorpgs and other games to make a deciding factor or are you just pointing out what is bait for you to use to make out a point out of his review. ?
I'm just going to be flat out honest here: I haven't got a single post from you on this thread that has indicated you've either read a single thing I wrote nor even tried to challenge yoru existing beliefs. It's really put me in a sour mood to have anything to do with you, so I'm just going to add you to ignore now. You can call that a copout if you want.
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Sure, lets go with popular opinion = truth. Worked for Nazi Germany. Hello Godwin's Law, nice to see you again.
Originally posted by colddog04
Do you accuse the reviewer of only liking WoW-style games? (Which is completely baseless).
Yes, I do, on the grounds that, had you read the original bulleted point list I made, it's pretty clear he expressed more than enough sentiments to support the base that he only likes WoW-style games.
Huh. Cool. At least I now know where your argument comes from. I think it's completely baseless and without merit, but at least I know.
And I am remdined why I should never bother with explaining myself. Even if it's something like a clear, bulleted list, a significant number of posters are just going to chuck out the window anything they don't want to agree with.
I actually already went over your bulleted list. You probably just didn't read the response. Sooo, I guess I am reminded why I should never bother explaining myself...
You mean this? That was the wrong one. I meant the original bulleted list referring to all the points that supported the idea he was biased, not the second bulleted list that explained some of the expectations a FFXIV player needs to have.
Originally posted by fyerwall
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Originally posted by fyerwall
Nice deflection.
But still, you make little to no sense. The game is an MMO. It is sold as an MMO. The box nowhere states that it is aimed at specific player type.
Who is this so called intended audience?
Where does it state anywhere in the design notes of the game that it is aimed at this 'intended audience'?
last I checked SE made an MMO that was aimed at MMO players, and it was up to those players to find out for themselves if the game was meant for them or not. I am sorry to say that, bullet points or not, it is an opinion (your opinion that is) that he wasn't the intended audience.
So unless you can point out where it is stated that this game is for a specific 'intended audience' then I feel that you might be the someone who can't understand.
Okay, so apparently you want to argue all MMORPGs are intended for the same audience.
Have fun with that.
But again, point out where it states there is a specific audience for this game.
I believe this should be self-evident that any individual instance of entertainment has an intended audience, MMORPGs included, so no, I won't bother to point this out for you.
You won't bother to because you cannot.
While yes, a lot of things may be aimed more toward a certain group of people than others, they are not 'intended'. Ultimately it is up to the individual to decide if something is for them or not. To say that the reviewer's opinion is skewed because he's used to a different style of play is just wrong. For all you know he might grow to love the game, which might be shown through the rest of the review as it comes out.
That's like saying that because I hated learning how to drive stick that manual transmissions were not intended for me and that anything I had to say on the subject was already skewed. But as I learned how to drive stick I actually started to like it as it gave me more control than an automatic. So now that I like driving with a manual transmission, does that mean that anything I have to say on the subject is now more valid than before? Does that mean that suddenly manual transmission became intended for me?
For all you know his review could start off the way it did and end up very positive, showing other people that they might enjoy the game once they get past it's many differences. The whole review might just be a sort of 'growing up' story. If it does, will he suddenly be part of the audience the game was 'intended' for?
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Funny thing is that person's experience is pretty much exactly what i went through,only i had it one step worse.I tried a culinarian for my second player and it was a total joke,they allow him to fight ,but what really is the point ,since he is a useless fighter....stone throw for 1 dmg,oh yeah i feel the fear in those mobs is mounting.:(
This person was actually being too kind to a poorly designed system he kept using the term complicated,umm not at all ,cumbersome and annoying is more like it.You want to see a REAL time sink try fishing,if it at least was FUN and had some fish animations it would be worth the time sink,but it doesn't and is not fun just cumbersome.
The game as mentioned by many others is truly still a console design,Square has not kept up with the times,all they did was make a new engine that can handle higher resolution textures and upgraded shader tech and better lighting,not much else is modernized in the entire game design.So Square improved the graphics/looks, but reading through countless forums they always say ....gameplay>graphics,and i agree.
I think for many coming from other poorly designed games FFFXIV may still be a viable game,but after being spoiled by FFXI,this game has taken only tiny baby steps to improve anything and actually made many things worse.... of course that is my opinion.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Yay i guess i win then. /ignore me all you want its your choice.
Originally posted by colddog04
Yeeeahh... Anyway, I disagree with you. I think the reviewer is being completely fair and I believe that most people that read it will agree. So, if anyone is on the fence, I think this would be a good review to keep an eye on in the following weeks to help make your decision. It does look like they are trying to be more comprehensive than most.
Yay, the loose ends are tying up nicely.
Izanon "wins," which I knew was his goal to begin with. The thing, I've learned a thing or two about message boards over the decades, and perhaps one of the more important things is this: if it's your goal to win an argument, it's also your goal to disagree with the other guy. The funny thing is, it's not that hard to invent reasons to disagree, perpetually, forever. The usual warning indicator I look for is when they're not particularly paying attention to what I wrote, due to it being a whole lot more convenient to ignore them for purposes of inventing reasons to disagree. This is why I had to break it off: meaning no disrespect, but when I notice you're operating in that mode, it's simply futile for me to continue.
Colddog04's opinion remains his opinion based off of the importance of opinons in his mind. Right. Now, I can respect that, but when it's reached the point where you can't tell the difference between respecting opinions and identifying where bias will make for an unobjective review, you will be unable to see my point so long as that state remains.
Fyrewall hasn't posted yet, but I'm pretty sure what he'd like to do is to continue to argue that I need to prove there's such a thing as specific audiences different MMOPGs are intended for. I've already explained why this is ridiculous, but that has fallen on deaf ears. Perhaps one day in the near future, when he's reading something a MMORPG developer wrote, and notices references to "audiences" and "niche" or words like "casual" or "hardcore" being tossed about, it will click that this is actually what they were referring to, that they actually do intend to capture specific audiences, that different MMORPGs appeal to different people because it's more likely to generate players than trying to compete with established MMORPGs. However, it doesn't seem like he's in the mood to hear that from me, so...
It may seem I'm leaving these people with less-than-satisfactory resolutions. However, the way I see it, this lack of satisfaction comes from each one of them not particularly wanting to see things from my viewpoint. All I did was take several passages out of the original article that I felt clearly indicated how it is the reviewer had differing expectations from a the demographic of a player who is likely to enjoy this game. Somehow, it ended up in a number of odd tangents that had nothing to do with that.
The only way this could be resolved with a satisfactory resolution would be if there was greater effort expended in understanding what I was getting at. If they could shake this idea that I'm deliberately spouting falsehoods, what I'm writing makes perfect sense, and from there invest some of their creativity in understanding how what i wrote works instead of how I wrote doesn't work.
Unfortunately, it seems to be easier to disagree than agree. It's been my experience that explaining myself to anyone whose goal is to disagree will only give them more things to disagree with. On the other hand, were they actually attempting to agree, then my explainations would have worked as clarification instead of further obfuscatation.
Wait i thought you put me in your special /ignore list.
Funny thing is that person's experience is pretty much exactly what i went through,only i had it one step worse.I tried a culinarian for my second player and it was a total joke,they allow him to fight ,but what really is the point ,since he is a useless fighter....stone throw for 1 dmg,oh yeah i feel the fear in those mobs is mounting.:(
This person was actually being too kind to a poorly designed system he kept using the term complicated,umm not at all ,cumbersome and annoying is more like it.You want to see a REAL time sink try fishing,if it at least was FUN and had some fish animations it would be worth the time sink,but it doesn't and is not fun just cumbersome.
The game as mentioned by many others is truly still a console design,Square has not kept up with the times,all they did was make a new engine that can handle higher resolution textures and upgraded shader tech and better lighting,not much else is modernized in the entire game design.So Square improved the graphics/looks, but reading through countless forums they always say ....gameplay>graphics,and i agree.
I think for many coming from other poorly designed games FFFXIV may still be a viable game,but after being spoiled by FFXI,this game has taken only tiny baby steps to improve anything and actually made many things worse.... of course that is my opinion.
I still see ff 11 much more superior that ff14 in its current state. heck playing the closed beta and open beta only did one thing. Make me resub ff 11 and enjoy a well made game.
Sadly even the japanese have a dislike to it and are complaining of the same things many here have complained about.
Wait i thought you put me in your special /ignore list.
am I that irresistible?
oh and its on colddog XD
I thought you deserved some closure. My mistake: you didn't read anything else I wrote, why would you have started now?
why should i read what you have posted,. are you some important person. After spending some time checking out your post history i see how you bash anything that breaths somthing negative about ff 14
well now you got their targeted country bashing the game. lot of work for you to do to defend the game. you can ignore me after all to your eyes im just some uninellegent monkey with a tinfoil hat, im not worthy of your time to explain things in one go. i am not worthy.
I don't think even Kotaku would pretend to call a "MMORPG Log" a proper review. I can tell, however, that this guy's not going to have a whole lot positive to say about it, it's pretty clear by what he writes that his expectations are in the wrong place.
I think it's fairly obvious that anyone expecting anything positive out of FFXIV must have their expectations in the wrong place. Don't you ever get tired of attacking every single person who has something bad to say about FFXIV?
I'm doing no such thing. In fact, I've had bad things to say about the game myself. I'm just pointing out exaggeration and/or subjective opinion where I see it.
... which seems to be pretty much any time someone has a negative remark about the game. I've been noticing your posting patterns as well, Geldon. It's pretty obvious.
Just about any post I read where people are voicing disappointment or issues with the game, you almost inevitably show up to spin or outright dismiss what they're saying in some fashion. And, no, it's not only the "troll posts" by "haters" you're doing it to.
Maybe you don't notice the trend when you're typing up your replies, but others can certainly notice it when they're reading them.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I don't think even Kotaku would pretend to call a "MMORPG Log" a proper review. I can tell, however, that this guy's not going to have a whole lot positive to say about it, it's pretty clear by what he writes that his expectations are in the wrong place.
I think it's fairly obvious that anyone expecting anything positive out of FFXIV must have their expectations in the wrong place. Don't you ever get tired of attacking every single person who has something bad to say about FFXIV?
I'm doing no such thing. In fact, I've had bad things to say about the game myself. I'm just pointing out exaggeration and/or subjective opinion where I see it.
... which seems to be pretty much any time someone has a negative remark about the game. I've been noticing your posting patterns as well, Geldon. It's pretty obvious.
Just about any post I read where people are voicing disappointment or issues with the game, you almost inevitably show up to spin or outright dismiss what they're saying in some fashion. And, no, it's not only the "troll posts" by "haters" you're doing it to.
Maybe you don't notice the trend when you're typing up your replies, but others can certainly notice it when they're reading them.
Not that it is needed but backing up Mike here, we all see it.
Side note, I know this game is probably one of the worst MMOs to date but I still feel compelled to go get it today. Just like Darkfall, I feel like I need to experience 'the worst MMO ever" and live to tell the tale. Also, it makes you really appreciate the well done MMOs (or games in general for that matter) a lot more afterwards. Is that crazy?
Side note, I know this game is probably one of the worst MMOs to date but I still feel compelled to go get it today. Just like Darkfall, I feel like I need to experience 'the worst MMO ever" and live to tell the tale. Also, it makes you really appreciate the well done MMOs (or games in general for that matter) a lot more afterwards. Is that crazy?
Clearly, your expectations are in the right place!
Some specifics on where I see he's already made up his mind about this game:
Final Fantasy XIV is an incredibly complex game. [...] The process was ridiculously complex.
At this point I was still struggling to make sense of my place in the world of Eorzea.
I was not aware of how this system worked, so initially I was confused. [...] Other players were having the same issue. Luckily we had some beta players on hand to set us straight.
Feeling lost, I head for bed.
Bored of combat and wanting to try something new, I purchased a pick from the Mining Guild and headed out into the lands surrounding the city to find my fortune. [...] At first mining frustrated me. [...] Mining is a complicated process.
That was a lot of work, and not particularly entertaining. I decided to try my hand at some crafts instead. [...] tred to alt-tab out of the game to consult such a website, but alt-tabbing crashed the game. Frustrated, I gave up.
I loged Fritti on long enough to take a couples videos of combat and mining. I try to find something to do, some driving motivation to continue, but I fail. After fooling about for an hour, I log off again.
Perhaps I've been spoiled by the user-friendly format of other massively-multiplayer online games, but I feel lost in Final Fantasy XIV. I'm used to being led about by quest after quest, but that's not how this game works. I'm used to having all the information I need at my fingertips, but so far FFXIV has fed me scraps and left me to my own devices.
I'm sure more experienced players could tell me what I am supposed to be doing. I just feel they shouldn't have to. This should be more intuitive. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.
So, breaking that down, he hates the complexity, he's too used to not finding things out for himself, he's already bored of the all the activities in the game (combat, harvesting, crafting), he doesn't want to invest a lot of effort ("work") in the game, and already feels little-to-no motivation to play because apparently he requires constant incentive pointing him where to go.
It all points to one thing: this is not the kind of player the game was made for. He's gone into the game with all the wrong attitudes. I'm pretty sure the rest of this "review" will continue to nosedive - he already hates the game, he admits several times that he just doesn't get it, and how he expects to get through another 3 weeks of it is beyond me.
If I were hired by Blizzard to try to make the game look bad, this is exactly how I'd go about it: by appealing to the average World of Warcraft player's perpsective and painstakingly weave a compelling one-sided story over the period of four weeks just how silly it would be for them to even consider playing FFXIV.
The game is not complex at all. It’s just full of anti-fun mechanics and needless mechanisms to slow your progression or over designed system for the sake of nothing but overly designed systems.
Why have one flight of stairs to the second floor when you can add 5 flights that take 4 times as long to climb and require you to only play for half that time unless you switch boots.
Wacking 300 fozzles that stand in a field is not complex.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
I've read a few of the mmo logs Kotaku has done in the past, they're half baked at best. Kotaku doesn't care about MMO gaming and is much more inclined to give a thousand insignificant posts about how the devs of the next Modern Warfare game farted than anything helpful related to MMOs. IMO go to a community that plays this genre regulary for info regarding these kinds of games.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
I've read a few of the mmo logs Kotaku has done in the past, they're half baked at best. Kotaku doesn't care about MMO gaming and is much more inclined to give a thousand insignificant posts about how the devs of the next Modern Warfare game farted than anything helpful related to MMOs. IMO go to a community that plays this genre regulary for info regarding these kinds of games.
LOL ! sorry i had to laugh for a moment there. Hate to break it to ya but they constantly announce mmorpg news, updates ect. its part of gaming thus they will cover it. Ironic that the first ones to mention apb closing the door was them eh? why dont you type mmorpg in their search list and tell me if they have not been covering mmorpgs. Lucid dreams man Lucid dreams your havin.
I don't think even Kotaku would pretend to call a "MMORPG Log" a proper review. I can tell, however, that this guy's not going to have a whole lot positive to say about it, it's pretty clear by what he writes that his expectations are in the wrong place.
I think it's fairly obvious that anyone expecting anything positive out of FFXIV must have their expectations in the wrong place. Don't you ever get tired of attacking every single person who has something bad to say about FFXIV?
I'm doing no such thing. In fact, I've had bad things to say about the game myself. I'm just pointing out exaggeration and/or subjective opinion where I see it.
all opinion is subjective, hence why it's called opinion. Not sure an objective opinion truely exists. Since a review is nothing but one mans opinion, there's nothing wrong about his review except if he gets any facts wrong about the game. Some of the facts might be because the game is so damned obtuse that finding the truth is like mining for diamonds with your forehead.
I'm not sure what kind of expectations you need going into FFXIV to actually like it. I guess y ou have to expect standing around a crystal, playing whack a mole kill x mob "quests" over and over with a short storyline quest every ten levels and no gear to like it. In that case i'm not sure who's going to be really all that jazzed. I really wanted to like ffxiv, i had absolutely no expectations going in as i wasn't following the game. The graphics were nice and that's all i knew. But after a few hours with teh game, i hated it. It had no redeeming qualities at all and was a snoozefest. I suspect most gamers will feel the same way.
I've read a few of the mmo logs Kotaku has done in the past, they're half baked at best. Kotaku doesn't care about MMO gaming and is much more inclined to give a thousand insignificant posts about how the devs of the next Modern Warfare game farted than anything helpful related to MMOs. IMO go to a community that plays this genre regulary for info regarding these kinds of games.
LOL ! sorry i had to laugh for a moment there. Hate to break it to ya but they constantly announce mmorpg news, updates ect. its part of gaming thus they will cover it. Ironic that the first ones to mention apb closing the door was them eh? why dont you type mmorpg in their search list and tell me if they have not been covering mmorpgs. Lucid dreams man Lucid dreams your havin.
You know, there's a difference between "constantly announcing MMORPG news, updates, ect" and "being inclined to say anything helpful in regards to MMOs." I can ramble on for hours about a topic of your choosing, but that doesn't mean I'll have anything worth listening to.
Originally posted by vanderghast
Originally posted by geldonyetich
Originally posted by TheEmpyreal
Originally posted by geldonyetich
I don't think even Kotaku would pretend to call a "MMORPG Log" a proper review. I can tell, however, that this guy's not going to have a whole lot positive to say about it, it's pretty clear by what he writes that his expectations are in the wrong place.
I think it's fairly obvious that anyone expecting anything positive out of FFXIV must have their expectations in the wrong place. Don't you ever get tired of attacking every single person who has something bad to say about FFXIV?
I'm doing no such thing. In fact, I've had bad things to say about the game myself. I'm just pointing out exaggeration and/or subjective opinion where I see it.
all opinion is subjective, hence why it's called opinion. Not sure an objective opinion truely exists. Since a review is nothing but one mans opinion, there's nothing wrong about his review except if he gets any facts wrong about the game. Some of the facts might be because the game is so damned obtuse that finding the truth is like mining for diamonds with your forehead.
Are you really trying to tell me what opinion means? I hate to break it to you, but my fourth grade teacher beat you to the punch, and you're just misunderstanding what was written here. When I'm saying "I'm pointing out subjective opinion where I see it," what I'm actually saying is, "if I see somebody pretending their subjective opinion as objective fact I point it out."
Originally posted by vanderghast
In that case i'm not sure who's going to be really all that jazzed. I really wanted to like ffxiv, i had absolutely no expectations going in as i wasn't following the game. The graphics were nice and that's all i knew. But after a few hours with teh game, i hated it.
And I have no problem with that. I'll even take it to the next level, "tough break, buddy, well I guess this game isn't for you then, you should go find one that is." This is, if anything, reaffirming the validity of your opinion.
What I disagree with is when somebody says, "I hated the game, therefore it is bad game, if you like it you are wrong, this is just plain bad design, games you like are badly designed and should be changed to designs of games I like, and you're giving developers monetary incentive to release garbage by paying them for garbage." That's going waay over the line of opinion, but you won't see a shortage of this narrow-minded approach.
If you're trying to malign somebody for not being able to tell the difference between opinion and fact, you might want to point your criticism towards someone other than the guy who is already pointing out the difference. (Not that such mistakes of understanding what was written in a thread are anything but commonplace on forums, alas.)
I've read a few of the mmo logs Kotaku has done in the past, they're half baked at best...
LOL ! sorry i had to laugh for a moment there. Hate to break it to ya but they constantly announce mmorpg news, updates ect. its part of gaming thus they will cover it. Ironic that the first ones to mention apb closing the door was them eh? why dont you type mmorpg in their search list and tell me if they have not been covering mmorpgs. Lucid dreams man Lucid dreams your havin.
First let me say that I find it very interesting that you feel the need to pimp Kotaku articles on a much smaller gaming website; i have my own theories but I'll refrain from saying them and stay on topic. Secondly if I were you I wouldn't ask for people to research unless you know what they're going to find. Which brings me to my next point...
Now today is September 30th and I'll go back one week to September 23rd and see if I find more garbage than MMO news.
Articles found by typing "mmorpg" into the search bar:
Oh boy and that's it? Well to be fair there was an FFXIV CE unboxing but that was the 22nd. Now let's see the crap I find just browsing (get your shovel ready):
Comments
Yay, the loose ends are tying up nicely.
Izanon "wins," which I knew was his goal to begin with. The thing, I've learned a thing or two about message boards over the decades, and perhaps one of the more important things is this: if it's your goal to win an argument, it's also your goal to disagree with the other guy. The funny thing is, it's not that hard to invent reasons to disagree, perpetually, forever. The usual warning indicator I look for is when they're not particularly paying attention to what I wrote, due to it being a whole lot more convenient to ignore them for purposes of inventing reasons to disagree. This is why I had to break it off: meaning no disrespect, but when I notice you're operating in that mode, it's simply futile for me to continue.
Colddog04's opinion remains his opinion based off of the importance of opinons in his mind. Right. Now, I can respect that, but when it's reached the point where you can't tell the difference between respecting opinions and identifying where bias will make for an unobjective review, you will be unable to see my point so long as that state remains.
Fyrewall hasn't posted yet, but I'm pretty sure what he'd like to do is to continue to argue that I need to prove there's such a thing as specific audiences different MMOPGs are intended for. I've already explained why this is ridiculous, but that has fallen on deaf ears. Perhaps one day in the near future, when he's reading something a MMORPG developer wrote, and notices references to "audiences" and "niche" or words like "casual" or "hardcore" being tossed about, it will click that this is actually what they were referring to, that they actually do intend to capture specific audiences, that different MMORPGs appeal to different people because it's more likely to generate players than trying to compete with established MMORPGs. However, it doesn't seem like he's in the mood to hear that from me, so...
It may seem I'm leaving these people with less-than-satisfactory resolutions. However, the way I see it, this lack of satisfaction comes from each one of them not particularly wanting to see things from my viewpoint. All I did was take several passages out of the original article that I felt clearly indicated how it is the reviewer had differing expectations from a the demographic of a player who is likely to enjoy this game. Somehow, it ended up in a number of odd tangents that had nothing to do with that.
The only way this could be resolved with a satisfactory resolution would be if there was greater effort expended in understanding what I was getting at. If they could shake this idea that I'm deliberately spouting falsehoods, what I'm writing makes perfect sense, and from there invest some of their creativity in understanding how what i wrote works instead of how I wrote doesn't work.
Unfortunately, it seems to be easier to disagree than agree. It's been my experience that explaining myself to anyone whose goal is to disagree will only give them more things to disagree with. On the other hand, were they actually attempting to agree, then my explainations would have worked as clarification instead of further obfuscatation.
Just for the record, I won, not Izanon. :P
Fahey's experience kind of mirrors mine so far. Looking to see what this weekend brings as I seek out a linkshell to join.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You won't bother to because you cannot.
While yes, a lot of things may be aimed more toward a certain group of people than others, they are not 'intended'. Ultimately it is up to the individual to decide if something is for them or not. To say that the reviewer's opinion is skewed because he's used to a different style of play is just wrong. For all you know he might grow to love the game, which might be shown through the rest of the review as it comes out.
That's like saying that because I hated learning how to drive stick that manual transmissions were not intended for me and that anything I had to say on the subject was already skewed. But as I learned how to drive stick I actually started to like it as it gave me more control than an automatic. So now that I like driving with a manual transmission, does that mean that anything I have to say on the subject is now more valid than before? Does that mean that suddenly manual transmission became intended for me?
For all you know his review could start off the way it did and end up very positive, showing other people that they might enjoy the game once they get past it's many differences. The whole review might just be a sort of 'growing up' story. If it does, will he suddenly be part of the audience the game was 'intended' for?
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Funny thing is that person's experience is pretty much exactly what i went through,only i had it one step worse.I tried a culinarian for my second player and it was a total joke,they allow him to fight ,but what really is the point ,since he is a useless fighter....stone throw for 1 dmg,oh yeah i feel the fear in those mobs is mounting.:(
This person was actually being too kind to a poorly designed system he kept using the term complicated,umm not at all ,cumbersome and annoying is more like it.You want to see a REAL time sink try fishing,if it at least was FUN and had some fish animations it would be worth the time sink,but it doesn't and is not fun just cumbersome.
The game as mentioned by many others is truly still a console design,Square has not kept up with the times,all they did was make a new engine that can handle higher resolution textures and upgraded shader tech and better lighting,not much else is modernized in the entire game design.So Square improved the graphics/looks, but reading through countless forums they always say ....gameplay>graphics,and i agree.
I think for many coming from other poorly designed games FFFXIV may still be a viable game,but after being spoiled by FFXI,this game has taken only tiny baby steps to improve anything and actually made many things worse.... of course that is my opinion.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Wait i thought you put me in your special /ignore list.
am I that irresistible?
oh and its on colddog XD
I still see ff 11 much more superior that ff14 in its current state. heck playing the closed beta and open beta only did one thing. Make me resub ff 11 and enjoy a well made game.
Sadly even the japanese have a dislike to it and are complaining of the same things many here have complained about.
I thought you deserved some closure. My mistake: you didn't read anything else I wrote, why would you have started now?
why should i read what you have posted,. are you some important person. After spending some time checking out your post history i see how you bash anything that breaths somthing negative about ff 14
well now you got their targeted country bashing the game. lot of work for you to do to defend the game. you can ignore me after all to your eyes im just some uninellegent monkey with a tinfoil hat, im not worthy of your time to explain things in one go. i am not worthy.
... which seems to be pretty much any time someone has a negative remark about the game. I've been noticing your posting patterns as well, Geldon. It's pretty obvious.
Just about any post I read where people are voicing disappointment or issues with the game, you almost inevitably show up to spin or outright dismiss what they're saying in some fashion. And, no, it's not only the "troll posts" by "haters" you're doing it to.
Maybe you don't notice the trend when you're typing up your replies, but others can certainly notice it when they're reading them.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Not that it is needed but backing up Mike here, we all see it.
Side note, I know this game is probably one of the worst MMOs to date but I still feel compelled to go get it today. Just like Darkfall, I feel like I need to experience 'the worst MMO ever" and live to tell the tale. Also, it makes you really appreciate the well done MMOs (or games in general for that matter) a lot more afterwards. Is that crazy?
Clearly, your expectations are in the right place!
The game is not complex at all. It’s just full of anti-fun mechanics and needless mechanisms to slow your progression or over designed system for the sake of nothing but overly designed systems.
Why have one flight of stairs to the second floor when you can add 5 flights that take 4 times as long to climb and require you to only play for half that time unless you switch boots.
Wacking 300 fozzles that stand in a field is not complex.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I've read a few of the mmo logs Kotaku has done in the past, they're half baked at best. Kotaku doesn't care about MMO gaming and is much more inclined to give a thousand insignificant posts about how the devs of the next Modern Warfare game farted than anything helpful related to MMOs. IMO go to a community that plays this genre regulary for info regarding these kinds of games.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
LOL ! sorry i had to laugh for a moment there. Hate to break it to ya but they constantly announce mmorpg news, updates ect. its part of gaming thus they will cover it. Ironic that the first ones to mention apb closing the door was them eh? why dont you type mmorpg in their search list and tell me if they have not been covering mmorpgs. Lucid dreams man Lucid dreams your havin.
all opinion is subjective, hence why it's called opinion. Not sure an objective opinion truely exists. Since a review is nothing but one mans opinion, there's nothing wrong about his review except if he gets any facts wrong about the game. Some of the facts might be because the game is so damned obtuse that finding the truth is like mining for diamonds with your forehead.
I'm not sure what kind of expectations you need going into FFXIV to actually like it. I guess y ou have to expect standing around a crystal, playing whack a mole kill x mob "quests" over and over with a short storyline quest every ten levels and no gear to like it. In that case i'm not sure who's going to be really all that jazzed. I really wanted to like ffxiv, i had absolutely no expectations going in as i wasn't following the game. The graphics were nice and that's all i knew. But after a few hours with teh game, i hated it. It had no redeeming qualities at all and was a snoozefest. I suspect most gamers will feel the same way.
You know, there's a difference between "constantly announcing MMORPG news, updates, ect" and "being inclined to say anything helpful in regards to MMOs." I can ramble on for hours about a topic of your choosing, but that doesn't mean I'll have anything worth listening to.
Are you really trying to tell me what opinion means? I hate to break it to you, but my fourth grade teacher beat you to the punch, and you're just misunderstanding what was written here. When I'm saying "I'm pointing out subjective opinion where I see it," what I'm actually saying is, "if I see somebody pretending their subjective opinion as objective fact I point it out."
And I have no problem with that. I'll even take it to the next level, "tough break, buddy, well I guess this game isn't for you then, you should go find one that is." This is, if anything, reaffirming the validity of your opinion.
What I disagree with is when somebody says, "I hated the game, therefore it is bad game, if you like it you are wrong, this is just plain bad design, games you like are badly designed and should be changed to designs of games I like, and you're giving developers monetary incentive to release garbage by paying them for garbage." That's going waay over the line of opinion, but you won't see a shortage of this narrow-minded approach.
If you're trying to malign somebody for not being able to tell the difference between opinion and fact, you might want to point your criticism towards someone other than the guy who is already pointing out the difference. (Not that such mistakes of understanding what was written in a thread are anything but commonplace on forums, alas.)
First let me say that I find it very interesting that you feel the need to pimp Kotaku articles on a much smaller gaming website; i have my own theories but I'll refrain from saying them and stay on topic. Secondly if I were you I wouldn't ask for people to research unless you know what they're going to find. Which brings me to my next point...
Now today is September 30th and I'll go back one week to September 23rd and see if I find more garbage than MMO news.
Articles found by typing "mmorpg" into the search bar:
A screenshot gallery from DC online http://kotaku.com/5652194/lex-luthor-is-definitely-compensating-for-something/gallery/
A FFXIV glich where someone was able to fall through the world but still play http://kotaku.com/5651398/legless-marathons-underground-final-fantasy-xiv-adventure
"Metal A Cappella" (didn't really have much to do with MMO's other than there is some gameplay footage from Runes of Magic)
http://kotaku.com/5647088/an-epic-tale-of-role+playing-and-a-cappella-metal
Oh boy and that's it? Well to be fair there was an FFXIV CE unboxing but that was the 22nd. Now let's see the crap I find just browsing (get your shovel ready):
Halo reach Dorritos http://kotaku.com/5652309/bungie-made-halo-reach-look-mountain-dew-and-doritos
Photographers can't take good pics of 3DS (wtf?) http://kotaku.com/5652215/skilled-photographers-struggling-to-snap-good-photos-of-nintendo-3ds/gallery/
Follow Kotaku on Facebook (see they can pimp themselves just fine)http://kotaku.com/5652183/why-not-follow-kotaku-on-facebook-go-on-you-know-you-want-to
Boba Fett shirt (it was sold out and I was bumed) http://kotaku.com/5651861/but-our-princess-is-frozen-in-carbonite
What would happen if Nintendo's President and Mario's creator had a child? http://kotaku.com/5651738/what-would-happen-if-nintendos-president-and-marios-creator-had-a-kid
And that dates back to just before today. Wow, you really do have to sift through a lot of crap just to get to any video game news. As for Kotaku having the APB closing down story first, Massively.com had it the same day as well: http://www.massively.com/2010/09/16/realtime-worlds-announces-the-closure-of-apb/ and Eurogamer hinted at Realtime world's demise as early as August: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-08-20-realtime-staff-sacked-via-tannoy. So you tell me, is Kotaku a good place to get news on MMOs?
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.