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What We Mean By 'Hardcore'
Melieza
Member Posts: 269
Alot of people have been throwing around that FFXIV is 'hardcore' and many are taking that as some type of excuse for the game to have flaws. That having a lack of direction equals hardcore and that makes it ok. That having a confusing GUI is hardcore and that makes it ok.
This isn't what the people who use the word 'hardcore' are trying to say.
I believe anyone who has played FFXI for a long period of time understands the definition of hardcore, but its hard to put into words. I'm going to try to though.
As an example, I was talking to my coworker who is a big gamer as well about FFXIV and I mentioned FFXIV does not sell anything but basic items and low end gear at NPCs, and that everything must be crafted. He responded 'wow, thats hardcore'.
My coworker gets it.
Basically, 'hardcore' is a term that means the game does not hand you good gear, money, or levels on a silver platter where anyone can just take them on a whim. All those things require effort, and a substantial amount.
Now, you may be saying 'well every game requires effort to do those things, it took me so and so hours to get from this level to that in this game'. The type of effort I'm speaking of is a bit different. The effort I am speaking of is not brute force effort, but something that also requires a bit of skill, thinking, and research.
WoW, for example, is not hardcore. This is because you can make due with brute forcing through WoW. You can grinding the quests, farm the loot, and be the best. Your crafting recipes are there is a book, every material is within reach as long as you are of the level, and success or failure is pretty basic. While I'm aware its not always true, good gear generally equals a better player.
This is a bit moot point though as I know few would say WoW is hardcore. Although, I will say that WoWs endgame raiding (at least in BC as thats as far as I played) is hardcore, and youll see why.
Aion then. Aion is also not hardcore. Again, due to the fact you can grind through like a machine, leveling, collecting gear, and ending up more powerful. Crafting is basically doing the repeatables from the crafting guilds over and over to skill up and rarely making anything that is better than what you can get as a drop.
You cannot brute force through FFXI. Making a good setup party, performing skillchains, and acquiring good gear all requires work. Naturally, this work ends up taking time. This is why hardcore is sometimes argued to 'just mean things take awhile'. I agree, they do kind of go hand in hand, but just because a game forces you to take time to do something does not make it hardcore. Its not a two way street.
Similarly, this is why FFXIV is hardcore. The constraints on quests, complex crafting, and everything being sort of a minigame, is why this people call this game that. Hardcore has to do with the games systems and how you get things accomplished. You cannot plow through FFXIV, which is where I think many of the complaints come from and why people respond "well, FFXIV is hardcore", and thus this misconception started.
As a sidenote, a GUI cannot be hardcore. A GUI is a GUI and is either easy to navigate or not. FFXIVs just happens to be the latter. In defense, FFXIs was the same. Many say "well FFXI was a 2003 game, its not ok anymore". I can see things from both side on the fence regarding that, but thats for another topic.
Similarly, the current Marketplace/Ward system which requires you check every single persons bazaar to find what you need, is not hardcore. Its just annoying.
Both of these things (GUI and Marketplace) are currently made to take longer than usual time, but as I said, just because something takes more time than standard does not make it hardcore. With this, ultimately it seems that hardcore is a term used to define gameplay and progression, not individual features.
I hope this clears up some misconceptions, feel free to comment if you believe I forgot something or am mistaken.
Comments
Thank you for sharing your definition of hardcore and why you think it applies to FFXIV. Here's mine: games are only as hardcore as the person playing them. A video game in and of itself is not hardcore, its how the player decides to approach it which determines a hardcore game experience or not.
I have seen so many posts like this trying put a definition to what hardcore is, when referred to gaming. The problem is, that its all opinion. I am not even going try to put a definition to it. Some think Mario Bros is hardcore and other think FFXIV is hardcore. It all depends on a person view and enjoyment of the game. Its all opinion.
In my opinion there is only two types of games. Fun and not fun. Unfortunately FFXIV falls on the not fun side for me. But hey, if you think a game is hardcore, then awesome. Keep at it.
I disagree and submit Demon's Souls as evidence exhibit A. There is no way to casually play this game.
I like to refer that as dedicated play. Meaning in order to stick with it its a time sink making it a dedicated play style.
I was referring to the loss of items and handicap imposed by death.
If you can open your inventory in this frikkin game, you're pretty hardcore in my book.
I jest
I am really enjoying the game, despite it's faults.
Hopefully they've been so silent on some of these issues because they've been working their butts off on fixing them.
LOL
I know... I know..
Yup, so true. When I was planning to make a good set of gear this morning I found out how really hard it is to make one even with a low lvl gear. And the first thing that I said in my mind is "What? This game is so hardcore", so basically for me the word "Hardcore" conveys how difficult a game is.
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." - Sun Tzu, Art of War
Demon Soul is not a game...
It's punishment :P
as for the OP:
But yeah, Hardcore and casual are pretty much terms used to vaguely describe something. While what I think is hardcore, you might think is more casual.
Most peoples definition of hardcore in the MMO genre seems to point more to dedicated - A hardcore player is someone who dedicates more time to the game than the average player.
Casual is usually defined as the opposite in the MMO genre, pointing more to someone who plays less than the average player or at a slower rate - a casual player is someone who only plays around 5 hours a week.
(Note the above are just examples made to show what I have seen the terms be used for.)
When it comes to what the OP is using the term to describe, it's a bit confusing to others, but I can see his point. Though I myself wouldn't call that hardcore, just hardmode or more complex. I don't feel it being 'hardcore'. I see that the game is aiming to make the economy almost purely crafter based.
So it's not 'hardcore' its just different.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
FFXIV IS NOT HARDCORE.
Battle Leave Quest :
WoW version of Hand holding questhelper - go there - we will mark the spot in the map for you, we will even tag the mobs just for you and your group - here's some gear + gill for you.
Crafting Leave:
talk to this guy at this place - he will give your all the mats - get down on your knees and get to work. huge time sink, spam ENTER every 2 seconds. turn in and you get a recipe posted in your chat, some gill and some materials. get all crafting skills to lvl 10 + your physical level will be 20+ in no time.
So what else is there? leveling is definitely HARDCORE. GRIND GRIND GRIND. you can level up any combat class from 1 - 10 easily by grinding the hell out of critters outside your starting zone + doing your battle leave quest.
so aside from grinding everything in the game - grind leaves - grind same mobs for mats - run around grinding for harvest spot. what is so hardcore about this game?
Why does everyone say "leave" it's:
LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE LEVE
You sound as if you haven't tried the crafting of the game, is that the only thing you can say about crafting? You haven't tried making some armor and weapons which aren't from doing local leves but for your own gears to use. If you have, then you'll probably say that's it's almost impossible to make because of the materials that are needed to craft just a single war garb or a weapon perhaps.
The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting." - Sun Tzu, Art of War
You're so hardcore you don't recognize anything as being hardcore.
I mean, what is Hard-Core then? Does Super Mario style jumping make a game hardcore? Is mashing a sequence of buttons in a set order hardcore? Is it hardcore to fight against one monster with 30 guys because the monster has so many hitpoints it takes all day to kill? It's all a time sink... Hardcore is as hardcore does.
Personally I am playing Final Fantasy XIV in a very casual way. I do a few regional leves and a couple local leves, then I log off. I'll come back later and search around for a good hunting spot and grind some yellow or orange mobs for a while, then switch classes and either kill some more for a while, or go fishing. I think the game is a great time sink, much along the lines of a virtual Final Fantasy life simulator. I only wish I could grow my own herbs for alchemy and had my own house, but I am hoping those things will come with time.
I was excited when I heard that the only way to get gear was to craft it. I often neglected my proffesions until endgame and ground them out. The problem does not lie in the fact that you have to make your own gear. There are a few other fatal flaws in the system.
I've always hated the "You need x items to make y. You need x of y to make z. You need x of z to make A." system. You are litterally grinding tens, sometimes hundreds, of the same item to get one piece of a whole. That alone wouldn't be so bad.
You sometimes need some rare compnents. Again, this would be no surprise to anyone that plays MMOs, nor would it normally be a problem. The problem lies with the fact that there is no worldwide chat channel. There is no AH. You literally have to sift through private stores for hours to find a single item.
Back to the no AH problem, how does one establish an economy without an auction house or auction channel? Do you look at all 1000 private stores, write down prices, get an average, then post the item in your own store at a median price? More likely, people will price gouge because checking prices is a huge pain in the butt.
Now, your economy is in shambles, the gil farmers now have a stranglehold on the economy, and everything costs a milllion gil to buy. End game of this result is you have to have an AION 2.0 type revamp. Basically, the economy is so boned, that they have to drop the banhammer on a ton of gold farmers, start handing out currency like candy via quests and drops, and having 30 million gil on you at any given time becomes routine. This is all to course correct huge inflation brought on by a lack of an actual trackable economy.
All of this doesn't make a game more "hardcore". Hardcore is a play style, not a game type. Tack on a wonky GUI, lackluster running narative, and the ability to only do 8 quests every 2 days, and you get a badly made game. This is in no way an anti-hand holding measure, or a mark of how hardcore it is. That would be like saying you lost your hands in a tractor accident because God felt like life was a little too easy, and he wanted to make it more "hardcore".
But hey, only one reference here so perhaps we shall wait until the other game sites who decided to grant FF14 additional time before reviewing. I beleive this post represents "your" opinion and view of hardcore and FF14 bias. Juat a thought.
Nice troll OP...
FFXI is hardcore if your a carebear.
Sic semper tyrannis "Democracy broke down, not when the Union
ceased to be agreeable to all its constituent States, but when it was upheld, like any other Empire, by force of arms."
However if you play FFXIV with it's annoying and time consuming mechanics your hardcore because it takes skill...
you people are too much.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
"I told u I was hardcore"
- Brandon Vedas AKA Ripper
I'll agree that is defiantly about the mechanics of how some things are done compared to so say like Darkfall where if you die you lose everything.(And, all those complaining about a grind try that game...)
I knew it! Hardcore = masochistic. Why would no one believe mah words of trooth?
Hardcore sounds a lot like time sink to me in relation to FFXIV.
By some definitions. To me hardcore isn't about time, it's about effort. You could have a game where I need to kill 100,000,000 one-shottable mobs that only spawn every 20 seconds and after spending all that time you earn [EPIX]. To me, this is not hardcore, it's a tedious grind. To some, it's hardcore.
To me hardcore is a difficult boss who will own you and your party over and over, fairly quickly, until you get the right pattern/sequences/reactions down and drop it for [EPIX]. I want an MMO that gives boss encounters like old-school (and one or two newschool) adventure type games. An example was the boss I fought last night in the new Castlevania, I probably spent 2 hours on it, and died dozen of times, but the reward of his death cutscene made it all worthwhile to me, and was hardcore.
Casual: No freakin way do I have time to get that.
Softcore: If at first you don't succeed, give up... nothing is worth that much effort.
Hardcore: Damn straight I'll get it, even if it kills me first... and it might.
Cash Shop: So, how much is that in tokens?
I'm with you on this. Time sink is not hardcore.
To me hardcore is going in mega-prepared with as much as you can carry to keep you alive, and STILL having only a few percent chance (if that) of obtaining it.
That percentage chance is to me what makes it or breaks it. It's not rare gear if EVERYONE is wearing it.
You guys are all wrong, this is Hardcore.