So now hardcore isnt about time invested its about spending time on tough encounters and clearing them?
LOL! You guys are awesome. Boss raids back in the day took time to learn and the "hardcore" guys cleared that because they spent hours working out the patterns and shit of the bosses.
So now hardcore isnt about time invested its about spending time on tough encounters and clearing them?
LOL! You guys are awesome. Boss raids back in the day took time to learn and the "hardcore" guys cleared that because they spent hours working out the patterns and shit of the bosses.
Yes they are spending time on "tough encounters" like rats and ladybugs...
very hardcore.
"It is my opinion, that my opinions are always right"
Alot of people have been throwing around that FFXIV is 'hardcore' and many are taking that as some type of excuse for the game to have flaws. That having a lack of direction equals hardcore and that makes it ok. That having a confusing GUI is hardcore and that makes it ok.
This isn't what the people who use the word 'hardcore' are trying to say.
I believe anyone who has played FFXI for a long period of time understands the definition of hardcore, but its hard to put into words. I'm going to try to though.
As an example, I was talking to my coworker who is a big gamer as well about FFXIV and I mentioned FFXIV does not sell anything but basic items and low end gear at NPCs, and that everything must be crafted. He responded 'wow, thats hardcore'.
My coworker gets it.
Basically, 'hardcore' is a term that means the game does not hand you good gear, money, or levels on a silver platter where anyone can just take them on a whim. All those things require effort, and a substantial amount.
Now, you may be saying 'well every game requires effort to do those things, it took me so and so hours to get from this level to that in this game'. The type of effort I'm speaking of is a bit different. The effort I am speaking of is not brute force effort, but something that also requires a bit of skill, thinking, and research.
WoW, for example, is not hardcore. This is because you can make due with brute forcing through WoW. You can grinding the quests, farm the loot, and be the best. Your crafting recipes are there is a book, every material is within reach as long as you are of the level, and success or failure is pretty basic. While I'm aware its not always true, good gear generally equals a better player.
This is a bit moot point though as I know few would say WoW is hardcore. Although, I will say that WoWs endgame raiding (at least in BC as thats as far as I played) is hardcore, and youll see why.
Aion then. Aion is also not hardcore. Again, due to the fact you can grind through like a machine, leveling, collecting gear, and ending up more powerful. Crafting is basically doing the repeatables from the crafting guilds over and over to skill up and rarely making anything that is better than what you can get as a drop.
You cannot brute force through FFXI. Making a good setup party, performing skillchains, and acquiring good gear all requires work. Naturally, this work ends up taking time. This is why hardcore is sometimes argued to 'just mean things take awhile'. I agree, they do kind of go hand in hand, but just because a game forces you to take time to do something does not make it hardcore. Its not a two way street.
Similarly, this is why FFXIV is hardcore. The constraints on quests, complex crafting, and everything being sort of a minigame, is why this people call this game that. Hardcore has to do with the games systems and how you get things accomplished. You cannot plow through FFXIV, which is where I think many of the complaints come from and why people respond "well, FFXIV is hardcore", and thus this misconception started.
As a sidenote, a GUI cannot be hardcore. A GUI is a GUI and is either easy to navigate or not. FFXIVs just happens to be the latter. In defense, FFXIs was the same. Many say "well FFXI was a 2003 game, its not ok anymore". I can see things from both side on the fence regarding that, but thats for another topic.
Similarly, the current Marketplace/Ward system which requires you check every single persons bazaar to find what you need, is not hardcore. Its just annoying.
Both of these things (GUI and Marketplace) are currently made to take longer than usual time, but as I said, just because something takes more time than standard does not make it hardcore. With this, ultimately it seems that hardcore is a term used to define gameplay and progression, not individual features.
I hope this clears up some misconceptions, feel free to comment if you believe I forgot something or am mistaken.
As a former FFXI player I am inclined to agree with the overwhelming majority of what you say here and I would like to clear something up in respect to it.
You are not saying that playing more makes someone hardcore because, irrespective of how much someone plays, skill is learned in time and not over time. Time simply doesn't replace skill.
However, what you are also not saying is that in a great many ways FFXI and, apparently, FFXIV were designed to be time-sinks, viz. there isn't a substantial reason why some things take so long or are so few and far between. When FFXI came out and until the FoV addition the game was all but party-centric, you simply couldn't solo or duo or even trio in an interesting and fun way without having a very specific party setup. The Fields of Valor addition did something to genuinely make that problem much less of a problem, however FFXI was still an incredibly party-centric game and by the time FoV came out players really should have known that. Ultimately, not matter when you played, leveling was still unnecessarily long due to the strength of monsters (the dreaded rarabs!), the need for full parties, players wanting incredibly specific combinations even in 2010 and the same old camps being cramped.
You are not saying that a game is holding your hand if you are guided in some real way in respect to a quest, nor are you saying that players shouldn't get some sort of genuinely helpful (sometimes even elite) loot for completing quests and crafting. Hardcore isn't scraping by with very little or slamming your face through a wall until you break through and reach the treasure chest, hardcore is working for your rewards and earning them.
However, what you are also not saying is that the crafting and questing in FFXI was impossibly unguided without meta-gaming via wikis or alakazham(sp?). FFXI and, apparently, even though FFXIV seems to do better, gave players only the slightest clue of what to do on very few recipes and the chances of items breaking that were incredibly hard to obtain was often heartbreaking for players. Questing and missions, well, they generally were terrible in terms of informing players on what they should be keeping an eye out for, not to mention having precious little clue who the questgivers were. The quest log is also something that provides scant information and cannot be relied on. Thes things, of course, are not hardcore but time-sinks designed to keep players in the game and paying Square-Enix.
Hardcore is a mindset, people who want a strong challenge in a game and respect earning their skills and achievements. You're absolutely right to point that out. That said, these people don't want a second job or unnecessary hurdles. FFXI and, from what I've been reading about FFXIV, is in part a game for the hardcore but also a game loaded with unnecessary hurdles. FFXIV is the spiritual successor to FFXI, both the good and the bad. SImply put, FFXI and FFXIV have been designed to be a second-job for players what want their MMORPG to be a second-job, or even second-life.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain. (2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
Alot of people have been throwing around that FFXIV is 'hardcore' and many are taking that as some type of excuse for the game to have flaws. That having a lack of direction equals hardcore and that makes it ok. That having a confusing GUI is hardcore and that makes it ok.
This isn't what the people who use the word 'hardcore' are trying to say.
I believe anyone who has played FFXI for a long period of time understands the definition of hardcore, but its hard to put into words. I'm going to try to though.
As an example, I was talking to my coworker who is a big gamer as well about FFXIV and I mentioned FFXIV does not sell anything but basic items and low end gear at NPCs, and that everything must be crafted. He responded 'wow, thats hardcore'.
My coworker gets it.
Basically, 'hardcore' is a term that means the game does not hand you good gear, money, or levels on a silver platter where anyone can just take them on a whim. All those things require effort, and a substantial amount.
Now, you may be saying 'well every game requires effort to do those things, it took me so and so hours to get from this level to that in this game'. The type of effort I'm speaking of is a bit different. The effort I am speaking of is not brute force effort, but something that also requires a bit of skill, thinking, and research.
WoW, for example, is not hardcore. This is because you can make due with brute forcing through WoW. You can grinding the quests, farm the loot, and be the best. Your crafting recipes are there is a book, every material is within reach as long as you are of the level, and success or failure is pretty basic. While I'm aware its not always true, good gear generally equals a better player.
This is a bit moot point though as I know few would say WoW is hardcore. Although, I will say that WoWs endgame raiding (at least in BC as thats as far as I played) is hardcore, and youll see why.
Aion then. Aion is also not hardcore. Again, due to the fact you can grind through like a machine, leveling, collecting gear, and ending up more powerful. Crafting is basically doing the repeatables from the crafting guilds over and over to skill up and rarely making anything that is better than what you can get as a drop.
You cannot brute force through FFXI. Making a good setup party, performing skillchains, and acquiring good gear all requires work. Naturally, this work ends up taking time. This is why hardcore is sometimes argued to 'just mean things take awhile'. I agree, they do kind of go hand in hand, but just because a game forces you to take time to do something does not make it hardcore. Its not a two way street.
Similarly, this is why FFXIV is hardcore. The constraints on quests, complex crafting, and everything being sort of a minigame, is why this people call this game that. Hardcore has to do with the games systems and how you get things accomplished. You cannot plow through FFXIV, which is where I think many of the complaints come from and why people respond "well, FFXIV is hardcore", and thus this misconception started.
As a sidenote, a GUI cannot be hardcore. A GUI is a GUI and is either easy to navigate or not. FFXIVs just happens to be the latter. In defense, FFXIs was the same. Many say "well FFXI was a 2003 game, its not ok anymore". I can see things from both side on the fence regarding that, but thats for another topic.
Similarly, the current Marketplace/Ward system which requires you check every single persons bazaar to find what you need, is not hardcore. Its just annoying.
Both of these things (GUI and Marketplace) are currently made to take longer than usual time, but as I said, just because something takes more time than standard does not make it hardcore. With this, ultimately it seems that hardcore is a term used to define gameplay and progression, not individual features.
I hope this clears up some misconceptions, feel free to comment if you believe I forgot something or am mistaken.
I really dont get the fact that if you have to craft your gear its being hardcore?? lest compare: wow you have to get 100 badges to get a lets say a Bow, FF you need to get 100 sticks to get a bow. What is the difference??? NONE, sticks or badges all the same thing.
And yes you need to get a balanced group to do raids and each of the players has their roles that they must fullfil. FFIV is hardcore in only one more way than WOW: ITS UI LAG.
Hardcore for me is when you need to throw out your best everytime you play the game or else you die.
I wouldn't call FF14 a hardcore game for what it currently offers. It just requires some time. In that sense, WoW is, comparatively, not a hardcore game on the most part either. It does offer some hardcore elements, e.g: Vanilla raids like Cthun, or getting the achievement to defeat Algalon without anyone dieing within a lockout period (forgot the exact title). I think the average player can miss out on these encounters, but still be said to have experienced the game adequately deeply.
So perhaps i would base the hardcore-ness of a game around requirement for player "skill", although I have somewhat mixed feelings towards the term and would use it judiciously. I would relate skill to what someone like a carpenter does, or a trained martial artist for example. I wouldn't readily equate "skill" in games to that; i just use it for the lack of a better word. Personal opinion though.
I wouldn't call FF14 a hardcore game for what it currently offers. It just requires some time. In that sense, WoW is, comparatively, not a hardcore game on the most part either. It does offer some hardcore elements, e.g: Vanilla raids like Cthun, or getting the achievement to defeat Algalon without anyone dieing within a lockout period (forgot the exact title). I think the average player can miss out on these encounters, but still be said to have experienced the game adequately deeply.
So perhaps i would base the hardcore-ness of a game around requirement for player "skill", although I have somewhat mixed feelings towards the term and would use it judiciously. I would relate skill to what someone like a carpenter does, or a trained martial artist for example. I wouldn't readily equate "skill" in games to that; i just use it for the lack of a better word. Personal opinion though.
and Hi everyone btw!
Aye,
'Hardcore' really has no actual definition when it comes to MMOs. It's used far too often to justify far too many things.
Some people say Time Invested = Hardcore
Some people say Effort = Hardcore
Others, needless time sinks = Hardcore
Difficulty = Hardcore
etc, etc, etc... you just can't really use the term for much without being told it's being used incorrectly.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
That's ridiculous. You have not the slightest idea what "hardcore" is. FF XIV is not hardcore, it's just tedious. Having too much spare time doesn't make someone "hardcore", the need to use skill is what makes something hardcore. In FF XIV there's no skill involved, the gameplay is not complex, it's actually very shallow just masked by tedium. Want to play something hardcore? Play Lineage 2 and try to survive the open pvp ther, try EVE and become a viable asset to your corporation.
FF XIV is as "hardcore" as "Hello Kitty-Online Adventures".
Thank you for sharing your definition of hardcore and why you think it applies to FFXIV. Here's mine: games are only as hardcore as the person playing them. A video game in and of itself is not hardcore, its how the player decides to approach it which determines a hardcore game experience or not.
100% agree!
At last somene who understands the term hardcore. you have enlightened me friend and made me realise that each game i play and think "now this is hardcore" it's actually myself and not the game.
This is why i see Darkfall as carebear and Everquest as Hardcore!
Hardcore is when after gathering your resources to craft you get killed and robbed of them all by another player.
Hardcore is when making a journey through space you get jumped by pirates and lose billions worth of cargo.
Seriously I can't personally see how a game that doesn't have FFA full loot mechanics can really be 'hardcore'.
Eh, it's like I said; 'hardcore' means many different things to many different people when it comes to MMOs.
You know, maybe it's time that we all band together and make an MMO dictionary. We could start by using a poll and give people choices to vote on for the definition of some of these vague terms. Highest votes by a certain date becomes the 'official MMORPG.com definition' of said term.
That way we can create a sticky that lists these terms so there won't be any more arguing over them :P
Anyone else agree?
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
As for the concept of "hardcore", I think we lost the meaning somewhere along the "casual road"--or "revolution", as they say. This habit of trying to use semantic oppositions to describe the world reaches its limits pretty soon; when not everything is binary, black-or-white, or even opposable to some degree.
That said, the word hardcore comes from inner studio jargon, dev slang, and it initially indicated a person or element which had two characteristics. First, it's in the "core" of the audience, the game systems, etc. The "core" is, by essence, the heart of things, the perfect middle, the "deep inside the shell". The core audience of a film is usually made of fans of the genre + fans of the prequel + fans of the director/actors (should they be in their usual trade), etc. The core audience of a game is exactly the same thing.
Secondly, "HARDcores", for what we called them some twenty years ago--much before the casual vs hardcore hype, at a time when most video games were difficult to beat--, were nothing more than "those among the core supporters who were pushing for more of the game". Tough players. The most "extreme" in their approach of the game--what a poster precisely said above. Coincidentally, you might find that those are the ones willing to put the most time and effort in playing, thus usually achieving more than your average customer, even than your average core audience. It's for those people that you have to re-play FF XII entirely if you opened that chest, or FF VI if you forgot that ribbon. Among many other "harsh" decisions. "Hardcore players" were those who chose "the hard way" when proposed with a choice that's exterior to the game, that's more psychological than logical, if you will. When designing this "hard way", you think of those players before any other else.
Designing a hardcore game may rely on totally different systems and mechanics, depending on which genre and audience you're talking about. What's hardcore for the typical Halo fan may not be hardcore at all to the Mario or FF fan. And vice-versa, of course.
Being a hardcore player has, too, very different meanings depending on where you come from. Some games will favor replayability, which in turn will make for most-enduring hardcore players. Other games will ask more of one's brains, and you get smart-ass hardcore players.
You see, it's all a matter of a match between certain challenges and certain personalities. A hardcore session is a happy reunion of a very dedicated gamer and a game tailored for his likes.
Which is why you need two things, ultimately, for it to happen: that the game is qualitatively on-par with its "core purpose", and that the player is able to relate to this purpose.
--
That being said, I tried FF XIV extensively, but above all I talked to a lot of people about it to gather their feelings. The first conclusion I can draw is that few games are so polarizing in that pretty much everyone loves something and hates something about it at the same time. Usually, I hear more coherent opinions, individually taken. The second conclusion I reached is that the core audience of FF XIV is satisfied with the experience, but will burn pretty fast until the UI is revamped--SE's supposedly working on that, according to the same fan opinions.
So if SE can pick up the slack, FF XIV has the potential to be a "hardcore game", simply because its mechanics are both deep and meet the likes of its active audience. However, a lot of its shortcomings (sluggish UI notably) tend to appear as "temporary" in the minds of fans, meaning they do in fact hope for some change down the road (and the sooner the better, even though they don't always admit it publicly not to feed the rage). However it's a total fallacy, from what I hear by many fans, to call those shortcomings 'hardcore" FF designs. It's just that SE is not that great a programmer--anymore--, period.
Last but not least, FF is known by its fans to be a genre where several elements (even core systems) tend to appear later in the progression. You often get some very basic skills in the late game, leaving you the option to level them up, should you want to, before you meet the last boss or something. FF XI tended to follow the same logic, unfolding its key elements one after another--the main city, more jobs, and so on--, evolving as time went by, much more than most other mmo's out there. Fans just hope the same will hold true to XIV, and that they will get their many "hardcore features" to grind--yes, most "hardcore" plays require doing the same thing again, and again, and again, because it's deemed by the "hardcore" player to be the single most efficient path.
Thank you for sharing your definition of hardcore and why you think it applies to FFXIV. Here's mine: games are only as hardcore as the person playing them. A video game in and of itself is not hardcore, its how the player decides to approach it which determines a hardcore game experience or not.
I disagree and submit Demon's Souls as evidence exhibit A. There is no way to casually play this game.
Ok you have perked my interest. What is Demon's soul? is it an mmo? i think i am going to have to look into this game.
Mention harsh death penalty and such and i get all excited.
Thank you for sharing your definition of hardcore and why you think it applies to FFXIV. Here's mine: games are only as hardcore as the person playing them. A video game in and of itself is not hardcore, its how the player decides to approach it which determines a hardcore game experience or not.
I disagree and submit Demon's Souls as evidence exhibit A. There is no way to casually play this game.
Ok you have perked my interest. What is Demon's soul? is it an mmo? i think i am going to have to look into this game.
Mention harsh death penalty and such and i get all excited.
It's a PS3 game that has some (really wierd yet kinda neat) online play.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
So now hardcore isnt about time invested its about spending time on tough encounters and clearing them?
LOL! You guys are awesome. Boss raids back in the day took time to learn and the "hardcore" guys cleared that because they spent hours working out the patterns and shit of the bosses.
Yes they are spending time on "tough encounters" like rats and ladybugs...
very hardcore.
I just thought it was hilarious that they say hardcore is not about time invested and then turn around and talk about time investment being hardcore lol.
Hardcore is when after gathering your resources to craft you get killed and robbed of them all by another player.
Hardcore is when making a journey through space you get jumped by pirates and lose billions worth of cargo.
Seriously I can't personally see how a game that doesn't have FFA full loot mechanics can really be 'hardcore'.
Eh, it's like I said; 'hardcore' means many different things to many different people when it comes to MMOs.
You know, maybe it's time that we all band together and make an MMO dictionary. We could start by using a poll and give people choices to vote on for the definition of some of these vague terms. Highest votes by a certain date becomes the 'official MMORPG.com definition' of said term.
That way we can create a sticky that lists these terms so there won't be any more arguing over them :P
Anyone else agree?
I'm well aware that it means many things to many people, but ultimately it comes down to difficulty. A game can have a great timesink, it can have twitch mechanics, it can have an incredibly complex crafting system and killer AI, but having FFA on top of that adds a whole new realm of difficulty to it.
A game which takes time to skill up vs a game which takes time to skill up and whilst you are doing so can be killed by other players. Which is more hardcore?
A game with complex crafting and resource gathering vs the same game where at any moment you may be killed and looted and have all your work taken from you. Which is more hardcore?
No matter which way you look at it, having the element of FFA makes any tasks in a game potentially more difficult and time consuming. It is such games that constitute the domain of the real hardcore in my opinion.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Thank you for sharing your definition of hardcore and why you think it applies to FFXIV. Here's mine: games are only as hardcore as the person playing them. A video game in and of itself is not hardcore, its how the player decides to approach it which determines a hardcore game experience or not.
I disagree and submit Demon's Souls as evidence exhibit A. There is no way to casually play this game.
Ok you have perked my interest. What is Demon's soul? is it an mmo? i think i am going to have to look into this game.
Mention harsh death penalty and such and i get all excited.
It's a PS3 game that has some (really wierd yet kinda neat) online play.
And realer hardcore would be total looting even of a players bank, destruction of their in game housing, and perma death....
even harder realer hardcore than that would be every time a player kills you can takes all your stuff you have to go out and buy the game again to play again....
even harder of the real hard hardcore would be when your character dies you are actually killed in your home by a ninja from the game designer....
And realer hardcore would be total looting even of a players bank, destruction of their in game housing, and perma death....
even harder realer hardcore than that would be every time a player kills you can takes all your stuff you have to go out and buy the game again to play again....
even harder of the real hard hardcore would be when your character dies you are actually killed in your home by a ninja from the game designer....
hardcore is all relative.
Indeed and as those kinds of games do not exist, hardcore reamins in the domain of ffa.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
you might say that they do not exist, but someone that views those extremes as hardcore would say your idea of hardcore is not hardcore....as someone playing the farm game on facebook might think their game is hardcore....hardcore is relative...to try to claim one is more hardcore than another is very subjective to what one individual thinks is hardcore.
And realer hardcore would be total looting even of a players bank, destruction of their in game housing, and perma death....
even harder realer hardcore than that would be every time a player kills you can takes all your stuff you have to go out and buy the game again to play again....
even harder of the real hard hardcore would be when your character dies you are actually killed in your home by a ninja from the game designer....
you might say that they do not exist, but someone that views those extremes as hardcore would say your idea of hardcore is not hardcore....as someone playing the farm game on facebook might think their game is hardcore....hardcore is relative...to try to claim one is more hardcore than another is very subjective to what one individual thinks is hardcore.
Hardcore is subjective in exactly the same way difficult is subject. Someone may find one task more difficult than someone else but there tends to be a common consensus was to what constitutes difficulty within a specific genre/theme.
Take two average people talking about sports, whilst one may find swimming more difficult than the other, both are likely to agree that swimming one mile is less difficult than swimming one mile through shark infested waters.
I'm sure someone playing the farm game on facebook may find it hardcore, if the game then added the ability for players to kill each other whilst they were trying to complete tasks (or whatever the feck they do on that game) do you think the same person would find it less or more hardcore, i'm betting it would be the latter.
As to the first part, well given that we are talking about mmos and more importantly mmos that exist, whether someone thinks something is not hardcore unless your family is gunned down every time your avatar gets hit by an npc really is a moot point.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Comments
This game is hardcore if you're brain-dead. Mindless grinding, tedious ui, content and game-play gating, etc is not hardcore.
"It is my opinion, that my opinions are always right"
YOu guys are comedians tonight huh?
So now hardcore isnt about time invested its about spending time on tough encounters and clearing them?
LOL! You guys are awesome. Boss raids back in the day took time to learn and the "hardcore" guys cleared that because they spent hours working out the patterns and shit of the bosses.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Yes they are spending time on "tough encounters" like rats and ladybugs...
very hardcore.
"It is my opinion, that my opinions are always right"
As a former FFXI player I am inclined to agree with the overwhelming majority of what you say here and I would like to clear something up in respect to it.
You are not saying that playing more makes someone hardcore because, irrespective of how much someone plays, skill is learned in time and not over time. Time simply doesn't replace skill.
However, what you are also not saying is that in a great many ways FFXI and, apparently, FFXIV were designed to be time-sinks, viz. there isn't a substantial reason why some things take so long or are so few and far between. When FFXI came out and until the FoV addition the game was all but party-centric, you simply couldn't solo or duo or even trio in an interesting and fun way without having a very specific party setup. The Fields of Valor addition did something to genuinely make that problem much less of a problem, however FFXI was still an incredibly party-centric game and by the time FoV came out players really should have known that. Ultimately, not matter when you played, leveling was still unnecessarily long due to the strength of monsters (the dreaded rarabs!), the need for full parties, players wanting incredibly specific combinations even in 2010 and the same old camps being cramped.
You are not saying that a game is holding your hand if you are guided in some real way in respect to a quest, nor are you saying that players shouldn't get some sort of genuinely helpful (sometimes even elite) loot for completing quests and crafting. Hardcore isn't scraping by with very little or slamming your face through a wall until you break through and reach the treasure chest, hardcore is working for your rewards and earning them.
However, what you are also not saying is that the crafting and questing in FFXI was impossibly unguided without meta-gaming via wikis or alakazham(sp?). FFXI and, apparently, even though FFXIV seems to do better, gave players only the slightest clue of what to do on very few recipes and the chances of items breaking that were incredibly hard to obtain was often heartbreaking for players. Questing and missions, well, they generally were terrible in terms of informing players on what they should be keeping an eye out for, not to mention having precious little clue who the questgivers were. The quest log is also something that provides scant information and cannot be relied on. Thes things, of course, are not hardcore but time-sinks designed to keep players in the game and paying Square-Enix.
Hardcore is a mindset, people who want a strong challenge in a game and respect earning their skills and achievements. You're absolutely right to point that out. That said, these people don't want a second job or unnecessary hurdles. FFXI and, from what I've been reading about FFXIV, is in part a game for the hardcore but also a game loaded with unnecessary hurdles. FFXIV is the spiritual successor to FFXI, both the good and the bad. SImply put, FFXI and FFXIV have been designed to be a second-job for players what want their MMORPG to be a second-job, or even second-life.
(1)TL:DR must be your way of saying that thinking hurts. Then again, this may explain why it looks like you responded to the post without using your brain.
(2) It's not about community, is it? You just have nothing better to do.
maybe diablo should put in an auction house as well lol.
I really dont get the fact that if you have to craft your gear its being hardcore?? lest compare: wow you have to get 100 badges to get a lets say a Bow, FF you need to get 100 sticks to get a bow. What is the difference??? NONE, sticks or badges all the same thing.
And yes you need to get a balanced group to do raids and each of the players has their roles that they must fullfil. FFIV is hardcore in only one more way than WOW: ITS UI LAG.
Hardcore for me is when you need to throw out your best everytime you play the game or else you die.
Hardcore is completing the following with only 1 token.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQZuidKexBQ
I wouldn't call FF14 a hardcore game for what it currently offers. It just requires some time. In that sense, WoW is, comparatively, not a hardcore game on the most part either. It does offer some hardcore elements, e.g: Vanilla raids like Cthun, or getting the achievement to defeat Algalon without anyone dieing within a lockout period (forgot the exact title). I think the average player can miss out on these encounters, but still be said to have experienced the game adequately deeply.
So perhaps i would base the hardcore-ness of a game around requirement for player "skill", although I have somewhat mixed feelings towards the term and would use it judiciously. I would relate skill to what someone like a carpenter does, or a trained martial artist for example. I wouldn't readily equate "skill" in games to that; i just use it for the lack of a better word. Personal opinion though.
and Hi everyone btw!
Aye,
'Hardcore' really has no actual definition when it comes to MMOs. It's used far too often to justify far too many things.
Some people say Time Invested = Hardcore
Some people say Effort = Hardcore
Others, needless time sinks = Hardcore
Difficulty = Hardcore
etc, etc, etc... you just can't really use the term for much without being told it's being used incorrectly.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
That's ridiculous. You have not the slightest idea what "hardcore" is. FF XIV is not hardcore, it's just tedious. Having too much spare time doesn't make someone "hardcore", the need to use skill is what makes something hardcore. In FF XIV there's no skill involved, the gameplay is not complex, it's actually very shallow just masked by tedium. Want to play something hardcore? Play Lineage 2 and try to survive the open pvp ther, try EVE and become a viable asset to your corporation.
FF XIV is as "hardcore" as "Hello Kitty-Online Adventures".
Hardcore is when after gathering your resources to craft you get killed and robbed of them all by another player.
Hardcore is when making a journey through space you get jumped by pirates and lose billions worth of cargo.
Seriously I can't personally see how a game that doesn't have FFA full loot mechanics can really be 'hardcore'.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
100% agree!
At last somene who understands the term hardcore. you have enlightened me friend and made me realise that each game i play and think "now this is hardcore" it's actually myself and not the game.
This is why i see Darkfall as carebear and Everquest as Hardcore!
Eh, it's like I said; 'hardcore' means many different things to many different people when it comes to MMOs.
You know, maybe it's time that we all band together and make an MMO dictionary. We could start by using a poll and give people choices to vote on for the definition of some of these vague terms. Highest votes by a certain date becomes the 'official MMORPG.com definition' of said term.
That way we can create a sticky that lists these terms so there won't be any more arguing over them :P
Anyone else agree?
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Very interesting topic. Thanks OP
As for the concept of "hardcore", I think we lost the meaning somewhere along the "casual road"--or "revolution", as they say. This habit of trying to use semantic oppositions to describe the world reaches its limits pretty soon; when not everything is binary, black-or-white, or even opposable to some degree.
That said, the word hardcore comes from inner studio jargon, dev slang, and it initially indicated a person or element which had two characteristics. First, it's in the "core" of the audience, the game systems, etc. The "core" is, by essence, the heart of things, the perfect middle, the "deep inside the shell". The core audience of a film is usually made of fans of the genre + fans of the prequel + fans of the director/actors (should they be in their usual trade), etc. The core audience of a game is exactly the same thing.
Secondly, "HARDcores", for what we called them some twenty years ago--much before the casual vs hardcore hype, at a time when most video games were difficult to beat--, were nothing more than "those among the core supporters who were pushing for more of the game". Tough players. The most "extreme" in their approach of the game--what a poster precisely said above. Coincidentally, you might find that those are the ones willing to put the most time and effort in playing, thus usually achieving more than your average customer, even than your average core audience. It's for those people that you have to re-play FF XII entirely if you opened that chest, or FF VI if you forgot that ribbon. Among many other "harsh" decisions. "Hardcore players" were those who chose "the hard way" when proposed with a choice that's exterior to the game, that's more psychological than logical, if you will. When designing this "hard way", you think of those players before any other else.
Designing a hardcore game may rely on totally different systems and mechanics, depending on which genre and audience you're talking about. What's hardcore for the typical Halo fan may not be hardcore at all to the Mario or FF fan. And vice-versa, of course.
Being a hardcore player has, too, very different meanings depending on where you come from. Some games will favor replayability, which in turn will make for most-enduring hardcore players. Other games will ask more of one's brains, and you get smart-ass hardcore players.
You see, it's all a matter of a match between certain challenges and certain personalities. A hardcore session is a happy reunion of a very dedicated gamer and a game tailored for his likes.
Which is why you need two things, ultimately, for it to happen: that the game is qualitatively on-par with its "core purpose", and that the player is able to relate to this purpose.
--
That being said, I tried FF XIV extensively, but above all I talked to a lot of people about it to gather their feelings. The first conclusion I can draw is that few games are so polarizing in that pretty much everyone loves something and hates something about it at the same time. Usually, I hear more coherent opinions, individually taken. The second conclusion I reached is that the core audience of FF XIV is satisfied with the experience, but will burn pretty fast until the UI is revamped--SE's supposedly working on that, according to the same fan opinions.
So if SE can pick up the slack, FF XIV has the potential to be a "hardcore game", simply because its mechanics are both deep and meet the likes of its active audience. However, a lot of its shortcomings (sluggish UI notably) tend to appear as "temporary" in the minds of fans, meaning they do in fact hope for some change down the road (and the sooner the better, even though they don't always admit it publicly not to feed the rage). However it's a total fallacy, from what I hear by many fans, to call those shortcomings 'hardcore" FF designs. It's just that SE is not that great a programmer--anymore--, period.
Last but not least, FF is known by its fans to be a genre where several elements (even core systems) tend to appear later in the progression. You often get some very basic skills in the late game, leaving you the option to level them up, should you want to, before you meet the last boss or something. FF XI tended to follow the same logic, unfolding its key elements one after another--the main city, more jobs, and so on--, evolving as time went by, much more than most other mmo's out there. Fans just hope the same will hold true to XIV, and that they will get their many "hardcore features" to grind--yes, most "hardcore" plays require doing the same thing again, and again, and again, because it's deemed by the "hardcore" player to be the single most efficient path.
Ok you have perked my interest. What is Demon's soul? is it an mmo? i think i am going to have to look into this game.
Mention harsh death penalty and such and i get all excited.
It's a PS3 game that has some (really wierd yet kinda neat) online play.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon's_Souls
That should give you the general idea.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I just thought it was hilarious that they say hardcore is not about time invested and then turn around and talk about time investment being hardcore lol.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
I'm well aware that it means many things to many people, but ultimately it comes down to difficulty. A game can have a great timesink, it can have twitch mechanics, it can have an incredibly complex crafting system and killer AI, but having FFA on top of that adds a whole new realm of difficulty to it.
A game which takes time to skill up vs a game which takes time to skill up and whilst you are doing so can be killed by other players. Which is more hardcore?
A game with complex crafting and resource gathering vs the same game where at any moment you may be killed and looted and have all your work taken from you. Which is more hardcore?
No matter which way you look at it, having the element of FFA makes any tasks in a game potentially more difficult and time consuming. It is such games that constitute the domain of the real hardcore in my opinion.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Thanks friend
Dont have a ps3 though
shame wouldn't mind trying that out.
And realer hardcore would be total looting even of a players bank, destruction of their in game housing, and perma death....
even harder realer hardcore than that would be every time a player kills you can takes all your stuff you have to go out and buy the game again to play again....
even harder of the real hard hardcore would be when your character dies you are actually killed in your home by a ninja from the game designer....
hardcore is all relative.
Indeed and as those kinds of games do not exist, hardcore reamins in the domain of ffa.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
you might say that they do not exist, but someone that views those extremes as hardcore would say your idea of hardcore is not hardcore....as someone playing the farm game on facebook might think their game is hardcore....hardcore is relative...to try to claim one is more hardcore than another is very subjective to what one individual thinks is hardcore.
soliders in afghanistan would call us all themepark players probably...no matter your "game"
Bah, That's still too carebear for me.
Hardcore means for me complexity and a high difficulty level.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Hardcore is subjective in exactly the same way difficult is subject. Someone may find one task more difficult than someone else but there tends to be a common consensus was to what constitutes difficulty within a specific genre/theme.
Take two average people talking about sports, whilst one may find swimming more difficult than the other, both are likely to agree that swimming one mile is less difficult than swimming one mile through shark infested waters.
I'm sure someone playing the farm game on facebook may find it hardcore, if the game then added the ability for players to kill each other whilst they were trying to complete tasks (or whatever the feck they do on that game) do you think the same person would find it less or more hardcore, i'm betting it would be the latter.
As to the first part, well given that we are talking about mmos and more importantly mmos that exist, whether someone thinks something is not hardcore unless your family is gunned down every time your avatar gets hit by an npc really is a moot point.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."