Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
Basing the only dynamic feature of the game on timed fetch or kill x number of quests; APB was better that this game. At least it had a world to do things in.
EQ1 at its launch, equally as bad UI / equally as poor Direction, still felt alive even with its ugly graphics.
There's no substance to FFXIV other than kill grinding and having a pretty place to chat with people. That's all fun for a bit, but MMOs should really have more.
If they expected players to run everything and find their own fun; then why didn't they make the world less static to begin with and more sandbox allowing players to truly make the economy?
For people having fun with this game I suggest trying Ball-In-A-Cup as well. It's cheaper and has a higher difficulty level and some engaging tactics.
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
But the problem with this game is not that its released with a few bugs or missing features. Its missing a decent mechanic, a ton of content and loads more. Its just a damn poor game.
If it was a single player release everyone would be agreeing, why is it so hard to be as objective for an MMO.
I think the developers are insane ... failed release after failed release ... and they still can't see what they are doing wrong!
So do you know what they are doing wrong? If so why are you not speaking up? I think we need to step back and think before we type. The amount of work into these games is enormous. The thousands of hours of testing, fixing, reworking, starting over....who are we to say they failed for having so little problems as they do. Your idea for a failed release is flawed.
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
EverQuest 2 had little downtime at launch and its features were in place. WoW's only problem was getting logged in, but once there you had things to do. City of Heroes had one of the cleanest launches in MMO history, and a long history of implimenting features suggested by the community. Age of Conan had a clean launch and plenty of content, but it wasn't really that impressive to begin with either.
FFXIV just doesn't hold water. Bugs aside, lag aside, lack of scaleablity aside, servers crashing constantly aside; it's too basic for its own good and uses a ton of restrictions to slow down progress rather than having content in the way.
Ever tried fishing? it's a minigame. Even if you run out of bait your toon casts one last time for you to eventually exit out of the minigame. It's such a needless time sink in so many ways, the game getting 25 out of 100 on metacritic is based on graphics alone.
Whilst i dont agree with some of the reasoning, we are perfectly entitled to say a game has failed ( from a personal) perspective. We are the gaming public - the ones who they are trying to tease the money from. They dont make these games for fun - its their job and the key part of that job is to get as many long term subscriptions as possible.
If we do not cry FAIL when a game is seriously flawed how do we expect the industry to evolve.
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
You are simply misunderstanding what people mean by finished. They are referring to it being fit for release, not that its missing all the content it will have just before they shutdown the servers for good, in X years time. FF XIV is the least fit for release AAA MMO launched, for many (many) years.
For a MMO we don't indeed expect a finished product, as we expect them to evolve with time. We do however expect one with suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish. The areas FF XIV lacks greatly in.
I believe this whole lame 'MMO's are never finished' line came from a dev back in the day as a way to explain the difference between an MMORPG and a single player RPG. Since that time it became a battle cry for poor release defenders, and frankly it's annoying, because simple fact is when someone says 'unfinished' when talking about MMOs at launch, they essentially mean release ready.
Everyone knows that MMO's are supposed to be a game that evolves over time. They also know that content will be added over time as well. When a game launches and people say its 'unfinished' they are talking about the state the game is in at release. When a company releases a game to the public at retail, the game should at least be out of a beta state with as minimal problems as possible.
FFXIV is an example of a game that was released before it was ready, therefore 'unfinished'. Issues that permeated the game throughout beta still existed at retail launch. Optimizations that should have been made in beta are still waiting to be made. Even Squeenix knew that the game was in a state unworthy of it's $60-$80 price tags, hence asking the media to not review it until after 30 days from its launch date.
To the OP asking people if they are insane:
People had faith in Squeenix. They believed that the devs would release a game that was in good shape and playable. What they got in return was a game that was about 6 months away from being ready for public consumption. And Squeenix knew what they were doing when they released it in that state. They knew that the Square Enix name as well as the Final Fantasy brand would sell the game to even the most unsure of customers. They knew that people equated those two names to quality. So in an attempt to make as much money as possible before the general public caught on to the deception, they sent out nice little emails and letters to media outlets (both in NA and the EU as well as in Japan) asking for a 30 day post launch review embargo.
So who is more insane?
The consumer who is used to a company being an example of quality...
Or the company who thought releasing an unready product to the market and then asking the media to remain hushed while they collect sales...
Bingo. Very well put.
People who are quick to jump on the "No MMO is ever finished at launch!" mantra seem to conveniently ignore similarly frequent remarks, often made in the same post/article: "the game wasn't ready for launch", or "the game needed more time". Both statements, in that context, have the same meaning: The game should not have been released when it was, as it needed more work. Erego, it was unfinished.
Of course, anyone reading such statements with any degree of intellectual honesty realizes and understands this relation. Others seem to conveniently ignore the "not ready for release", while spinning like tops, milking the whole "no MMO is ever finished!" argument for all its worth.
As for people who ask "name one MMO that was finished at launch!"...
Okay I will:
LoTRO. It was ready for launch when it went retail. It was "finished" in the way that a MMO should be when it goes live and the developer starts charging money to play it. That game had a functioning market system, it had an intuitive, responsive interface, it had plenty of core quest and story content to keep players entertained *consistently* - not merely in "chunks" divvied out every 36 hours and/or every 10 levels. And so forth... In the context of being "ready for retail", LoTRO was indeed "finished" at its launch. By and large, it was considered to have had an excellent launch.
Conversely, FFXIV was not ready for launch as it was not "finished" yet, and still needed more work.
It is also notable that SE would ask publications to not review the game for 30 days. While it's not the first time I've ever heard of a developer making such a request, it's certainly one of the few. It's particularly telling when it's coming from a AAA game developer with the history and reputation SE has.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
EverQuest 2 had little downtime at launch and its features were in place. WoW's only problem was getting logged in, but once there you had things to do. City of Heroes had one of the cleanest launches in MMO history, and a long history of implimenting features suggested by the community. Age of Conan had a clean launch and plenty of content, but it wasn't really that impressive to begin with either.
FFXIV just doesn't hold water. Bugs aside, lag aside, lack of scaleablity aside, servers crashing constantly aside; it's too basic for its own good and uses a ton of restrictions to slow down progress rather than having content in the way.
Ever tried fishing? it's a minigame. Even if you run out of bait your toon casts one last time for you to eventually exit out of the minigame. It's such a needless time sink in so many ways, the game getting 25 out of 100 on metacritic is based on graphics alone.
With better technolgy comes bigger problems...we are going to see more problems with next-gen games due to the hardware it takes to run these monsters. How many people do you think EverQuest 2 had crashing its servers? WOW had more problems then people logging in. They had bugs, crashes, plus the logging in. COH was smooth but is east when your game only had 10 different mobs skins and 10 building layouts. I didn't get on the AOC bandwagon.
I agree FF has a lot to live up to and admit that the game was trash when I played the beta which is why I didn't pre-order. I'm saying launch is a minor thing to get over. You should be more worried about the game itself than the launch.
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
EverQuest 2 had little downtime at launch and its features were in place. WoW's only problem was getting logged in, but once there you had things to do. City of Heroes had one of the cleanest launches in MMO history, and a long history of implimenting features suggested by the community. Age of Conan had a clean launch and plenty of content, but it wasn't really that impressive to begin with either.
FFXIV just doesn't hold water. Bugs aside, lag aside, lack of scaleablity aside, servers crashing constantly aside; it's too basic for its own good and uses a ton of restrictions to slow down progress rather than having content in the way.
Ever tried fishing? it's a minigame. Even if you run out of bait your toon casts one last time for you to eventually exit out of the minigame. It's such a needless time sink in so many ways, the game getting 25 out of 100 on metacritic is based on graphics alone.
With better technolgy comes bigger problems...we are going to see more problems with next-gen games due to the hardware it takes to run these monsters. How many people do you think EverQuest 2 had crashing its servers? WOW had more problems then people logging in. They had bugs, crashes, plus the logging in. COH was smooth but is east when your game only had 10 different mobs skins and 10 building layouts. I didn't get on the AOC bandwagon.
I agree FF has a lot to live up to and admit that the game was trash when I played the beta which is why I didn't pre-order. I'm saying launch is a minor thing to get over. You should be more worried about the game itself than the launch.
CoH had more to do in the game at launch than FFXIV.
You'd think more technology would be spent adding things to the game other than fetch and kill x number missions.
EDIT: I dare say CoH's creator alone at launch had more game play variety than FFXIV does.
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
You are simply misunderstanding what people mean by finished. They are referring to it being fit for release, not that its missing all the content it will have just before they shutdown the servers for good, in X years time. FF XIV is the least fit for release AAA MMO launched, for many (many) years.
For a MMO we do indeed not expect a finished product, as we expect them to evolve with time. We do however expect one with suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish. The areas FF XIV lacks greatly in.
Well that is debateable...I have very played a launch that didn't have problems..does that mean non of the games were finished? MMOs are not console games that have a finish product...MMO develop problems all the time...and new issues spring up after and during launch. People are throwing the word finish around alot. But no one has a good definition. Even games that are ports/weasternized have issues (Aion) but that doesn't mean it wasn't finished.
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
You are simply misunderstanding what people mean by finished. They are referring to it being fit for release, not that its missing all the content it will have just before they shutdown the servers for good, in X years time. FF XIV is the least fit for release AAA MMO launched, for many (many) years.
For a MMO we do indeed not expect a finished product, as we expect them to evolve with time. We do however expect one with suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish. The areas FF XIV lacks greatly in.
Well that is debateable...I have very played a launch that didn't have problems..does that mean non of the games were finished? MMOs are not console games that have a finish product...MMO develop problems all the time...and new issues spring up after and during launch. People are throwing the word finish around alot. But no one has a good definition. Even games that are ports/weasternized have issues (Aion) but that doesn't mean it wasn't finished.
Again, the launch has nothing to do with it. Its about the quaility of the product. Many a good MMO has had problems at launch, regarding lag, stability, etc. They have however sill been good games.
It is also not debateable, as FF XIV is being greatly panned by the industry and players.
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
You are simply misunderstanding what people mean by finished. They are referring to it being fit for release, not that its missing all the content it will have just before they shutdown the servers for good, in X years time. FF XIV is the least fit for release AAA MMO launched, for many (many) years.
For a MMO we do indeed not expect a finished product, as we expect them to evolve with time. We do however expect one with suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish. The areas FF XIV lacks greatly in.
Well that is debateable...I have very played a launch that didn't have problems..does that mean non of the games were finished? MMOs are not console games that have a finish product...MMO develop problems all the time...and new issues spring up after and during launch. People are throwing the word finish around alot. But no one has a good definition. Even games that are ports/weasternized have issues (Aion) but that doesn't mean it wasn't finished.
You're being very dishonest in your reply.
He specifically stated "suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish". That's 3 different categories. You respond by ignoring "content" and "gameplay" - two areas where FFXIV is being heavily criticized - and focus entirely on polish, which you defend with the canned response that "all MMOs have issues".
You accuse people of "not having a good defiition" for what unfinished is, right after being given a perfectly good one that MMOs are often measured by. You were given a good definition/explanation... you simply chose to ignore 2/3 of it.
Also, polish doesn't only relate to how many bugs or "issues" there are.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
EverQuest 2 had little downtime at launch and its features were in place. WoW's only problem was getting logged in, but once there you had things to do. City of Heroes had one of the cleanest launches in MMO history, and a long history of implimenting features suggested by the community. Age of Conan had a clean launch and plenty of content, but it wasn't really that impressive to begin with either.
FFXIV just doesn't hold water. Bugs aside, lag aside, lack of scaleablity aside, servers crashing constantly aside; it's too basic for its own good and uses a ton of restrictions to slow down progress rather than having content in the way.
Ever tried fishing? it's a minigame. Even if you run out of bait your toon casts one last time for you to eventually exit out of the minigame. It's such a needless time sink in so many ways, the game getting 25 out of 100 on metacritic is based on graphics alone.
With better technolgy comes bigger problems...we are going to see more problems with next-gen games due to the hardware it takes to run these monsters. How many people do you think EverQuest 2 had crashing its servers? WOW had more problems then people logging in. They had bugs, crashes, plus the logging in. COH was smooth but is east when your game only had 10 different mobs skins and 10 building layouts. I didn't get on the AOC bandwagon.
I agree FF has a lot to live up to and admit that the game was trash when I played the beta which is why I didn't pre-order. I'm saying launch is a minor thing to get over. You should be more worried about the game itself than the launch.
CoH had more to do in the game at launch than FFXIV.
You'd think more technology would be spent adding things to the game other than fetch and kill x number missions.
EDIT: I dare say CoH's creator alone at launch had more game play variety than FFXIV does.
Sad to say I had more fun in COH then I did in FF. But I don't mind killing X missions as long as the killing is fun. FF didn't make it fun for me but that doesn't make it unfinished.
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
You are simply misunderstanding what people mean by finished. They are referring to it being fit for release, not that its missing all the content it will have just before they shutdown the servers for good, in X years time. FF XIV is the least fit for release AAA MMO launched, for many (many) years.
For a MMO we do indeed not expect a finished product, as we expect them to evolve with time. We do however expect one with suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish. The areas FF XIV lacks greatly in.
Well that is debateable...I have very played a launch that didn't have problems..does that mean non of the games were finished? MMOs are not console games that have a finish product...MMO develop problems all the time...and new issues spring up after and during launch. People are throwing the word finish around alot. But no one has a good definition. Even games that are ports/weasternized have issues (Aion) but that doesn't mean it wasn't finished.
The problem is you are looking at 'finished' from a console/single player point of view.
When people say 'finished' while talking about MMOs they mean that once the game is released it should be as feature complete and polished with as little issues as possible. Will an MMO launch be laggy? Yes, it happens. Will an MMO launch maybe have queues? Again yes.
New issues will always pop up over time in the life of an MMO, thats a given. But when a lot of issues are hold overs from several phases of betas, thats not acceptable.
What we are talking about is when a game releases in the same state as it was in beta, thats when an MMO is considered 'unfinished'. In FFXIV's case it the lack of everything being fleshed out, such as the Market wards, the group gains bug (or feature as some have called it), the lack of all but the most minimal amount of content... the fact that Squeenix felt the game was ready for retail yet not ready enough for the media to review.... This is what constitutes 'unfinished'. I mean Squeenix knew the game was unfinished yet everyone who defends the game refuses to admit it.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
You are simply misunderstanding what people mean by finished. They are referring to it being fit for release, not that its missing all the content it will have just before they shutdown the servers for good, in X years time. FF XIV is the least fit for release AAA MMO launched, for many (many) years.
For a MMO we do indeed not expect a finished product, as we expect them to evolve with time. We do however expect one with suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish. The areas FF XIV lacks greatly in.
Well that is debateable...I have very played a launch that didn't have problems..does that mean non of the games were finished? MMOs are not console games that have a finish product...MMO develop problems all the time...and new issues spring up after and during launch. People are throwing the word finish around alot. But no one has a good definition. Even games that are ports/weasternized have issues (Aion) but that doesn't mean it wasn't finished.
You're being very dishonest in your reply.
He specifically stated "suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish". That's 3 different categories. You respond by ignoring the "content" and "gameplay" parts and focus entirely on polish, which you defend with the lazy canned response that "all MMOs have issues".
You accuse people of "not having a good defiition" for what unfinished is, right after being given a perfectly good one that MMOs are often measured by. You were given a good definition/explanation... you simply chose to ignore 2/3 of it.
So lets discuss this. Content, gameplay, polished...in my opinion a finished gamed has to only have gameplay and enough content to keep me happy. Polished games usually come with time (bugs,crashes, errors etc). I expect a game to grab my attention with its content and gameplay. Everyone opinion on finished will be different. Also why is it lazy to say all MMO's have problems? Its the truth...MMO's have more moving parts therefore more problems...as a matter of fact any company providing service to a mass of people will have problems. Cell phones, cable, internet...these are all products that all have issue througout the time you have service with them. Why is gaming held to such a higher standards than other products?
I think the developers are insane ... failed release after failed release ... and they still can't see what they are doing wrong!
So do you know what they are doing wrong? If so why are you not speaking up? I think we need to step back and think before we type. The amount of work into these games is enormous. The thousands of hours of testing, fixing, reworking, starting over....who are we to say they failed for having so little problems as they do. Your idea for a failed release is flawed.
Hmmm, thought my remark was quite self explanatory, guess not since you felt you had to belittle me.
What I ment to say here was that people do not accept unfinished games anymore. We used to 10 years ago, but not in this day and present age.
When I say failed release after failed release, I'm talking the range of mmo's released the past couple of years, nowhere did I say SE in particulary.
When developers look at the track record of those failed releases, they should ponder to why they failed and make damn sure they don't get screwed by the same problems. A major issue would be ... product released to early in general.
If they did thousands of hours of testing the product sure does not reflect that. Also from alpha forwards to open beta we know they did not listen to beta testers and glaring issues stayed unresolved, so your statement about fixing, reworking, starting over does not quite hold up.
In short:
I think the developers are insane ... : because
failed release after failed release ... : the range of recent failures with the likes of WAR, AOC, MO, DF, etc
and they still can't see what they are doing wrong!: should make a dev'er question what those games did wrong and make sure not to repeat the mistakes. Apparently SE was not capable of doing this by judging the released product.
I'm sorry you didn't grasp all this from my original post, but I'm not used to hand holding. So maybe you are not hardcore enough and my type of post is not for you since you lack the intelectual capabilities of discovering what was ment by it for yourself. /sarcasm
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
You are simply misunderstanding what people mean by finished. They are referring to it being fit for release, not that its missing all the content it will have just before they shutdown the servers for good, in X years time. FF XIV is the least fit for release AAA MMO launched, for many (many) years.
For a MMO we do indeed not expect a finished product, as we expect them to evolve with time. We do however expect one with suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish. The areas FF XIV lacks greatly in.
Well that is debateable...I have very played a launch that didn't have problems..does that mean non of the games were finished? MMOs are not console games that have a finish product...MMO develop problems all the time...and new issues spring up after and during launch. People are throwing the word finish around alot. But no one has a good definition. Even games that are ports/weasternized have issues (Aion) but that doesn't mean it wasn't finished.
You're being very dishonest in your reply.
He specifically stated "suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish". That's 3 different categories. You respond by ignoring the "content" and "gameplay" parts and focus entirely on polish, which you defend with the lazy canned response that "all MMOs have issues".
You accuse people of "not having a good defiition" for what unfinished is, right after being given a perfectly good one that MMOs are often measured by. You were given a good definition/explanation... you simply chose to ignore 2/3 of it.
So lets discuss this. Content, gameplay, polished...in my opinion a finished gamed has to only have gameplay and enough content to keep me happy. Polished games usually come with time (bugs,crashes, errors etc). I expect a game to grab my attention with its content and gameplay. Everyone opinion on finished will be different. Also why is it lazy to say all MMO's have problems? Its the truth...MMO's have more moving parts therefore more problems...as a matter of fact any company providing service to a mass of people will have problems. Cell phones, cable, internet...these are all products that all have issue througout the time you have service with them. Why is gaming held to such a higher standards than other products?
Great strawman, but you are again missing the point.
All those services you have mentioned are held to the same standards. Gaming is held to the same standards. The problem is you will have people loyal to those companies/services who will defend them for the sake of defending them, no matter how poor the quality happens to be.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
You are simply misunderstanding what people mean by finished. They are referring to it being fit for release, not that its missing all the content it will have just before they shutdown the servers for good, in X years time. FF XIV is the least fit for release AAA MMO launched, for many (many) years.
For a MMO we do indeed not expect a finished product, as we expect them to evolve with time. We do however expect one with suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish. The areas FF XIV lacks greatly in.
Well that is debateable...I have very played a launch that didn't have problems..does that mean non of the games were finished? MMOs are not console games that have a finish product...MMO develop problems all the time...and new issues spring up after and during launch. People are throwing the word finish around alot. But no one has a good definition. Even games that are ports/weasternized have issues (Aion) but that doesn't mean it wasn't finished.
The problem is you are looking at 'finished' from a console/single player point of view.
When people say 'finished' while talking about MMOs they mean that once the game is released it should be as feature complete and polished with as little issues as possible. Will an MMO launch be laggy? Yes, it happens. Will an MMO launch maybe have queues? Again yes.
New issues will always pop up over time in the life of an MMO, thats a given. But when a lot of issues are hold overs from several phases of betas, thats not acceptable.
What we are talking about is when a game releases in the same state as it was in beta, thats when an MMO is considered 'unfinished'. In FFXIV's case it the lack of everything being fleshed out, such as the Market wards, the group gains bug (or feature as some have called it), the lack of all but the most minimal amount of content... the fact that Squeenix felt the game was ready for retail yet not ready enough for the media to review.... This is what constitutes 'unfinished'. I mean Squeenix knew the game was unfinished yet everyone who defends the game refuses to admit it.
Well to be fair Enix wanted a fair shake in the review department. So once they have live servers with thousands of people on them, its only makes sense to see what problems arise and deal with them accordingly. You can't review the game play well if you dealing with issues that hinder its performance. Some issues with the game can only be revealed at release. That doesn't mean its unfinished.
The starting post hit the nail right on the head. It was like I wrote it. I had also pre-ordered, but after reading so many negitive things lucky for me I could cancil and get my money back. Been playing online games since the very first one and over the last few years have basically lost intrest. Hoping Guild Wars is good,. But basically I beleive in life , you get what you pay for, With Guild wars being free I am a little leary as it is free. .
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
You are simply misunderstanding what people mean by finished. They are referring to it being fit for release, not that its missing all the content it will have just before they shutdown the servers for good, in X years time. FF XIV is the least fit for release AAA MMO launched, for many (many) years.
For a MMO we do indeed not expect a finished product, as we expect them to evolve with time. We do however expect one with suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish. The areas FF XIV lacks greatly in.
Well that is debateable...I have very played a launch that didn't have problems..does that mean non of the games were finished? MMOs are not console games that have a finish product...MMO develop problems all the time...and new issues spring up after and during launch. People are throwing the word finish around alot. But no one has a good definition. Even games that are ports/weasternized have issues (Aion) but that doesn't mean it wasn't finished.
You're being very dishonest in your reply.
He specifically stated "suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish". That's 3 different categories. You respond by ignoring the "content" and "gameplay" parts and focus entirely on polish, which you defend with the lazy canned response that "all MMOs have issues".
You accuse people of "not having a good defiition" for what unfinished is, right after being given a perfectly good one that MMOs are often measured by. You were given a good definition/explanation... you simply chose to ignore 2/3 of it.
So lets discuss this. Content, gameplay, polished...in my opinion a finished gamed has to only have gameplay and enough content to keep me happy. Polished games usually come with time (bugs,crashes, errors etc). I expect a game to grab my attention with its content and gameplay. Everyone opinion on finished will be different. Also why is it lazy to say all MMO's have problems? Its the truth...MMO's have more moving parts therefore more problems...as a matter of fact any company providing service to a mass of people will have problems. Cell phones, cable, internet...these are all products that all have issue througout the time you have service with them. Why is gaming held to such a higher standards than other products?
Great strawman, but you are again missing the point.
All those services you have mentioned are held to the same standards. Gaming is held to the same standards. The problem is you will have people loyal to those companies/services who will defend them for the sake of defending them, no matter how poor the quality happens to be.
Your never safisfied huh? lol
Well its funny that people expect all their products to be prefect when they never were. Its like chasing the a ghost of perfection. I expect stuff to happen and I have standards. As I said before, FF not being polished didn't stop me from playing. The gameplay and quality of content did. I guess my point is bugs, crashes, and graphic problems are things we should come to accept because no matter what they will happen. ITs how they are handled that matters to me most.
Everyone that plays MMO's knows they are never buying a "finished" product at launch. It just depends on how finished.
Now, THIS is insanity.
As customers, we expect a finished, well polished product.
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
You are simply misunderstanding what people mean by finished. They are referring to it being fit for release, not that its missing all the content it will have just before they shutdown the servers for good, in X years time. FF XIV is the least fit for release AAA MMO launched, for many (many) years.
For a MMO we do indeed not expect a finished product, as we expect them to evolve with time. We do however expect one with suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish. The areas FF XIV lacks greatly in.
Well that is debateable...I have very played a launch that didn't have problems..does that mean non of the games were finished? MMOs are not console games that have a finish product...MMO develop problems all the time...and new issues spring up after and during launch. People are throwing the word finish around alot. But no one has a good definition. Even games that are ports/weasternized have issues (Aion) but that doesn't mean it wasn't finished.
You're being very dishonest in your reply.
He specifically stated "suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish". That's 3 different categories. You respond by ignoring the "content" and "gameplay" parts and focus entirely on polish, which you defend with the lazy canned response that "all MMOs have issues".
You accuse people of "not having a good defiition" for what unfinished is, right after being given a perfectly good one that MMOs are often measured by. You were given a good definition/explanation... you simply chose to ignore 2/3 of it.
So lets discuss this. Content, gameplay, polished...in my opinion a finished gamed has to only have gameplay and enough content to keep me happy. Polished games usually come with time (bugs,crashes, errors etc). I expect a game to grab my attention with its content and gameplay. Everyone opinion on finished will be different. Also why is it lazy to say all MMO's have problems? Its the truth...MMO's have more moving parts therefore more problems...as a matter of fact any company providing service to a mass of people will have problems. Cell phones, cable, internet...these are all products that all have issue througout the time you have service with them. Why is gaming held to such a higher standards than other products?
Great strawman, but you are again missing the point.
All those services you have mentioned are held to the same standards. Gaming is held to the same standards. The problem is you will have people loyal to those companies/services who will defend them for the sake of defending them, no matter how poor the quality happens to be.
Your never safisfied huh? lol
Well its funny that people expect all their products to be prefect when they never were. Its like chasing the a ghost of perfection. I expect stuff to happen and I have standards. As I said before, FF not being polished didn't stop me from playing. The gameplay and quality of content did. I guess my point is bugs, crashes, and graphic problems are things we should come to accept because no matter what they will happen. ITs how they are handled that matters to me most.
Eh, thing is if people don't demand better quality and just accept what they get you will have companies doing as little as possible from the start. And if people still accept that, the companies assume that they can get away with doing even less the next time. People buying a product and expecting better quality each time is what keeps these companies striving for excellence. Demanding better quality makes these companies look at ways they can deliver a better product.
It's like accepting your kid getting straight C's in school. Sure that might be passing, but wouldn't you want your kid to do their best rather than just scraping by?
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Random internet posters thoughts on MMO design and "quality" aside, who cares. Now I know each of the people trolling this game and pointing out how terrible it is all have just great qualifications so we should listen to them, as do people who write gaming reviews professionally. Never before have these two groups led me astray.
These good hearted people's warnings aside I really like the game, have been playing since beta and certainly have a much harder time wanting to log off than I ever do logging in.
I'm having a great time in FFXIV, and I wouldn't just play anything because I certainly have no interest in playing anything else on the market (and haven't for over a year now after playing MMO's the previous ten).
Comments
Name a launch that didn't have problems....even the almighty WOW was horrible at launch. Why is everyone so shocked? Go make your own MMO then come here and complain.
Living up to hype is one deal.
Basing the only dynamic feature of the game on timed fetch or kill x number of quests; APB was better that this game. At least it had a world to do things in.
EQ1 at its launch, equally as bad UI / equally as poor Direction, still felt alive even with its ugly graphics.
There's no substance to FFXIV other than kill grinding and having a pretty place to chat with people. That's all fun for a bit, but MMOs should really have more.
If they expected players to run everything and find their own fun; then why didn't they make the world less static to begin with and more sandbox allowing players to truly make the economy?
For people having fun with this game I suggest trying Ball-In-A-Cup as well. It's cheaper and has a higher difficulty level and some engaging tactics.
People aren't complaining about the launch, its about the poor standard and quaility of the game.
Its just a damn poor game.
If it was a single player release everyone would be agreeing, why is it so hard to be as objective for an MMO.
To err is human....to play is divine
So do you know what they are doing wrong? If so why are you not speaking up? I think we need to step back and think before we type. The amount of work into these games is enormous. The thousands of hours of testing, fixing, reworking, starting over....who are we to say they failed for having so little problems as they do. Your idea for a failed release is flawed.
EverQuest 2 had little downtime at launch and its features were in place. WoW's only problem was getting logged in, but once there you had things to do. City of Heroes had one of the cleanest launches in MMO history, and a long history of implimenting features suggested by the community. Age of Conan had a clean launch and plenty of content, but it wasn't really that impressive to begin with either.
FFXIV just doesn't hold water. Bugs aside, lag aside, lack of scaleablity aside, servers crashing constantly aside; it's too basic for its own good and uses a ton of restrictions to slow down progress rather than having content in the way.
Ever tried fishing? it's a minigame. Even if you run out of bait your toon casts one last time for you to eventually exit out of the minigame. It's such a needless time sink in so many ways, the game getting 25 out of 100 on metacritic is based on graphics alone.
Whilst i dont agree with some of the reasoning, we are perfectly entitled to say a game has failed ( from a personal) perspective. We are the gaming public - the ones who they are trying to tease the money from. They dont make these games for fun - its their job and the key part of that job is to get as many long term subscriptions as possible.
If we do not cry FAIL when a game is seriously flawed how do we expect the industry to evolve.
To err is human....to play is divine
Arguing quality is hardly has anything to do with a game being finished. You have a responsiblity as a customer to research before you buy. Don't pre-order/rush buy and then say "As customers, we expect a finished and well polished product." That is BS do some research and stop cry when you get burned cause you didn't.
You are simply misunderstanding what people mean by finished. They are referring to it being fit for release, not that its missing all the content it will have just before they shutdown the servers for good, in X years time. FF XIV is the least fit for release AAA MMO launched, for many (many) years.
For a MMO we don't indeed expect a finished product, as we expect them to evolve with time. We do however expect one with suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish. The areas FF XIV lacks greatly in.
Bingo. Very well put.
People who are quick to jump on the "No MMO is ever finished at launch!" mantra seem to conveniently ignore similarly frequent remarks, often made in the same post/article: "the game wasn't ready for launch", or "the game needed more time". Both statements, in that context, have the same meaning: The game should not have been released when it was, as it needed more work. Erego, it was unfinished.
Of course, anyone reading such statements with any degree of intellectual honesty realizes and understands this relation. Others seem to conveniently ignore the "not ready for release", while spinning like tops, milking the whole "no MMO is ever finished!" argument for all its worth.
As for people who ask "name one MMO that was finished at launch!"...
Okay I will:
LoTRO. It was ready for launch when it went retail. It was "finished" in the way that a MMO should be when it goes live and the developer starts charging money to play it. That game had a functioning market system, it had an intuitive, responsive interface, it had plenty of core quest and story content to keep players entertained *consistently* - not merely in "chunks" divvied out every 36 hours and/or every 10 levels. And so forth... In the context of being "ready for retail", LoTRO was indeed "finished" at its launch. By and large, it was considered to have had an excellent launch.
Conversely, FFXIV was not ready for launch as it was not "finished" yet, and still needed more work.
It is also notable that SE would ask publications to not review the game for 30 days. While it's not the first time I've ever heard of a developer making such a request, it's certainly one of the few. It's particularly telling when it's coming from a AAA game developer with the history and reputation SE has.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
With better technolgy comes bigger problems...we are going to see more problems with next-gen games due to the hardware it takes to run these monsters. How many people do you think EverQuest 2 had crashing its servers? WOW had more problems then people logging in. They had bugs, crashes, plus the logging in. COH was smooth but is east when your game only had 10 different mobs skins and 10 building layouts. I didn't get on the AOC bandwagon.
I agree FF has a lot to live up to and admit that the game was trash when I played the beta which is why I didn't pre-order. I'm saying launch is a minor thing to get over. You should be more worried about the game itself than the launch.
CoH had more to do in the game at launch than FFXIV.
You'd think more technology would be spent adding things to the game other than fetch and kill x number missions.
EDIT: I dare say CoH's creator alone at launch had more game play variety than FFXIV does.
Well that is debateable...I have very played a launch that didn't have problems..does that mean non of the games were finished? MMOs are not console games that have a finish product...MMO develop problems all the time...and new issues spring up after and during launch. People are throwing the word finish around alot. But no one has a good definition. Even games that are ports/weasternized have issues (Aion) but that doesn't mean it wasn't finished.
Again, the launch has nothing to do with it. Its about the quaility of the product. Many a good MMO has had problems at launch, regarding lag, stability, etc. They have however sill been good games.
It is also not debateable, as FF XIV is being greatly panned by the industry and players.
You're being very dishonest in your reply.
He specifically stated "suitable levels of content, gameplay and polish". That's 3 different categories. You respond by ignoring "content" and "gameplay" - two areas where FFXIV is being heavily criticized - and focus entirely on polish, which you defend with the canned response that "all MMOs have issues".
You accuse people of "not having a good defiition" for what unfinished is, right after being given a perfectly good one that MMOs are often measured by. You were given a good definition/explanation... you simply chose to ignore 2/3 of it.
Also, polish doesn't only relate to how many bugs or "issues" there are.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Sad to say I had more fun in COH then I did in FF. But I don't mind killing X missions as long as the killing is fun. FF didn't make it fun for me but that doesn't make it unfinished.
The problem is you are looking at 'finished' from a console/single player point of view.
When people say 'finished' while talking about MMOs they mean that once the game is released it should be as feature complete and polished with as little issues as possible. Will an MMO launch be laggy? Yes, it happens. Will an MMO launch maybe have queues? Again yes.
New issues will always pop up over time in the life of an MMO, thats a given. But when a lot of issues are hold overs from several phases of betas, thats not acceptable.
What we are talking about is when a game releases in the same state as it was in beta, thats when an MMO is considered 'unfinished'. In FFXIV's case it the lack of everything being fleshed out, such as the Market wards, the group gains bug (or feature as some have called it), the lack of all but the most minimal amount of content... the fact that Squeenix felt the game was ready for retail yet not ready enough for the media to review.... This is what constitutes 'unfinished'. I mean Squeenix knew the game was unfinished yet everyone who defends the game refuses to admit it.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
So lets discuss this. Content, gameplay, polished...in my opinion a finished gamed has to only have gameplay and enough content to keep me happy. Polished games usually come with time (bugs,crashes, errors etc). I expect a game to grab my attention with its content and gameplay. Everyone opinion on finished will be different. Also why is it lazy to say all MMO's have problems? Its the truth...MMO's have more moving parts therefore more problems...as a matter of fact any company providing service to a mass of people will have problems. Cell phones, cable, internet...these are all products that all have issue througout the time you have service with them. Why is gaming held to such a higher standards than other products?
Hmmm, thought my remark was quite self explanatory, guess not since you felt you had to belittle me.
What I ment to say here was that people do not accept unfinished games anymore. We used to 10 years ago, but not in this day and present age.
When I say failed release after failed release, I'm talking the range of mmo's released the past couple of years, nowhere did I say SE in particulary.
When developers look at the track record of those failed releases, they should ponder to why they failed and make damn sure they don't get screwed by the same problems. A major issue would be ... product released to early in general.
If they did thousands of hours of testing the product sure does not reflect that. Also from alpha forwards to open beta we know they did not listen to beta testers and glaring issues stayed unresolved, so your statement about fixing, reworking, starting over does not quite hold up.
In short:
I think the developers are insane ... : because
failed release after failed release ... : the range of recent failures with the likes of WAR, AOC, MO, DF, etc
and they still can't see what they are doing wrong!: should make a dev'er question what those games did wrong and make sure not to repeat the mistakes. Apparently SE was not capable of doing this by judging the released product.
I'm sorry you didn't grasp all this from my original post, but I'm not used to hand holding. So maybe you are not hardcore enough and my type of post is not for you since you lack the intelectual capabilities of discovering what was ment by it for yourself. /sarcasm
Great strawman, but you are again missing the point.
All those services you have mentioned are held to the same standards. Gaming is held to the same standards. The problem is you will have people loyal to those companies/services who will defend them for the sake of defending them, no matter how poor the quality happens to be.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Well to be fair Enix wanted a fair shake in the review department. So once they have live servers with thousands of people on them, its only makes sense to see what problems arise and deal with them accordingly. You can't review the game play well if you dealing with issues that hinder its performance. Some issues with the game can only be revealed at release. That doesn't mean its unfinished.
The starting post hit the nail right on the head. It was like I wrote it. I had also pre-ordered, but after reading so many negitive things lucky for me I could cancil and get my money back. Been playing online games since the very first one and over the last few years have basically lost intrest. Hoping Guild Wars is good,. But basically I beleive in life , you get what you pay for, With Guild wars being free I am a little leary as it is free. .
King of the world
Your never safisfied huh? lol
Well its funny that people expect all their products to be prefect when they never were. Its like chasing the a ghost of perfection. I expect stuff to happen and I have standards. As I said before, FF not being polished didn't stop me from playing. The gameplay and quality of content did. I guess my point is bugs, crashes, and graphic problems are things we should come to accept because no matter what they will happen. ITs how they are handled that matters to me most.
Eh, thing is if people don't demand better quality and just accept what they get you will have companies doing as little as possible from the start. And if people still accept that, the companies assume that they can get away with doing even less the next time. People buying a product and expecting better quality each time is what keeps these companies striving for excellence. Demanding better quality makes these companies look at ways they can deliver a better product.
It's like accepting your kid getting straight C's in school. Sure that might be passing, but wouldn't you want your kid to do their best rather than just scraping by?
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Random internet posters thoughts on MMO design and "quality" aside, who cares. Now I know each of the people trolling this game and pointing out how terrible it is all have just great qualifications so we should listen to them, as do people who write gaming reviews professionally. Never before have these two groups led me astray.
These good hearted people's warnings aside I really like the game, have been playing since beta and certainly have a much harder time wanting to log off than I ever do logging in.
I'm having a great time in FFXIV, and I wouldn't just play anything because I certainly have no interest in playing anything else on the market (and haven't for over a year now after playing MMO's the previous ten).
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan