Another misinformed thread from someone who probably doesn't even play the game. It's hard to believe they do, because it doesn't reflect the reality of what's in the game. How can you complain about customization when anyone who is serious about their character mostly uses the cookie cutter builds, with slight dabbling? And the dabbling was talents that were mostly inconsequential anyway. Anyone who mentions NGE obviously wasn't around when Sony did that to SWG because it's something completely different. We're talking about whole classes (in some cases, removed classes) and game mechanics changing.
Once again, people will complain no matter what Blizzard does. They could be running a lemonade stand and people will bitch that there are not enough lemons.
Oh how often have you heard of a blood spec DK tank pre-patch? I was one of a small handful on my server where most were frost spec.(atleast before I stopped playing my DK) Ask a hunter/mage/pvp priest the rough % of points they had in other trees pre-patch. ask how many people spent dots in other trees before 70 pre-patch.
As a Hunter main, I'll tell you this much, there were atleast 3 MM specs, 2 survival, 2 beast, and 1 hybrid specs that were all good even with personal variation to them pre-patch. Go ask your hunter friends/guildies how many there are now. I'd tell you but obviously you won't believe me.
Don't go fanboi sweeping everyone that has complaints under the pile of haters. Many are valid. I like warcraft, but I just don't like the path they are taking with the talents, especially on my hunter. I can survive without volley, though I love it to death(hell in BC it was just for looks anyway), but forcing a generic talent path on me(31 points in 1 tree before you can talent another) is a game breaker. I was a beating most classes in boss dps without the old bottom 2 tiers of marks, now I got to get it because they're better than the only other 4 talent options? Cripes it sucks, my DK has more talent choice than my hunter.
Oh, ask a hunter to duel a similar geared&skilled melee character that they could beat pre-patch, and watch how he does.
For the thousandth time, no. The game is not simplified just because pointless and useless talents were removed from the game and the good talents, the talents everyone love, were left.
Seriously, tell me how much sense it made for me to use 5 talent points for 5% more mana. It was stupid to start with and finally its been fixed.
The only people truly complaining were ones who do not know how to play their class and are mad that now they cannot rule WOW with a two buttoned, macro'ed, button smashing ignorance. Trust me, after doing a few randoms tanks who can manage threat, DPS who can watch their agro and crowd control that knows what to do will become a precious commodity.
EDIT: And Possum is correct. Addons dumb the game down, not the game itself. I raided with healers that could not play if Healbot was broken and Druids who couldn't decurse if Decursive was broken. Play the game minus the addons and we'll chat.
Pointless and useless talents, thats what I keep hearing But for every bad ass player with hybrid builds there is someone out there cursing you for your ignorance. Sub rogues HAD to hybrid because their bottom talents were just not that good, Ghostcrawler was often and repeated critisized for making bad End tree talents, he wants to say he solved a lot of problems with the trees by Forcing everyone to use the same lame end tree talents while at the same time reducing their choices outside the trees.
I can see rogues and Shaman being really agitated right off the bat, this puts a HUGE dent in Shadow priest defensive abilities, because they like the other classes that are DPS trees now forced to be PURE DPS as in no PVP dps builds and that is probably correct for healers as well, pigeon holed into being pure healz not BG hybrid healers or specilzed half and half pvp builds.
What the simple minded and players that dont want to think dont understand is that this removes not only chioces in the trees but the flexibility just so GC can feel good about himself and pat himself on the back. I mentioned the haste hunter and someone said, well whats wrong with Marksmen hunters being forced into haste builds. What you dont understand is that IS the Marks hunter tree now, a Haste DPS build.. period, no choice, no customization within the tree or any divergence outside of it. Where you could onece take Survival Marks or Marks Survival trees, tie them up and make a custom build for your particular situation now you take cookie cutter hunter builds, and believe me when I made a hybrid Marks/BM hunter I didnt have ANY useless talents, there are not many useless talents.. well maybe a few..... but there are DEFINATELY Many useless players.
As an experienced priest, I'd just like to say that when I built my new shadow spec I was really excited to take him into pvp, which was never the case before. As for those hybrid specs you're talking about - they never existed. A hybrid spec previously meant average-at-best pvp and worthless for raid healing. If you wanted to do dps AND heals, or pvp AND raid, you dual spec'ed. I tried to make a hybrid shadow / heals priest and came up with the best possible build for it. All I accomplished was gimping my dps for crap heals. I tried running my pvp Discipline spec in 5 man heroics to see if I could do good dps while healing. Not really. Don't think I ever did better than 1900 dps in a 5 man while healing. On the other hand, I guarantee that I'll be topping that now with my Smite Disc spec. Honestly, though, it still seems that WoW has been designed to accommodate multiple roles through dual spec'ing. It has not been designed to have hybrid roles work successfully since vanilla, and I'm completely fine with that. At least now you have options of HOW you want to go about doing your dps or healing within your primary spec - which really was not the case before.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
Yes, its all over now. This site will create a wow vets forum and we will all go there and whine for the next 6 years. Seriously though, this is a fun read until the servers go back up.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Another misinformed thread from someone who probably doesn't even play the game. It's hard to believe they do, because it doesn't reflect the reality of what's in the game. How can you complain about customization when anyone who is serious about their character mostly uses the cookie cutter builds, with slight dabbling? And the dabbling was talents that were mostly inconsequential anyway. Anyone who mentions NGE obviously wasn't around when Sony did that to SWG because it's something completely different. We're talking about whole classes (in some cases, removed classes) and game mechanics changing.
Once again, people will complain no matter what Blizzard does. They could be running a lemonade stand and people will bitch that there are not enough lemons.
Oh how often have you heard of a blood spec DK tank pre-patch? I was one of a small handful on my server where most were frost spec.(atleast before I stopped playing my DK) Ask a hunter/mage/pvp priest the rough % of points they had in other trees pre-patch. ask how many people spent dots in other trees before 70 pre-patch.
As a Hunter main, I'll tell you this much, there were atleast 3 MM specs, 2 survival, 2 beast, and 1 hybrid specs that were all good even with personal variation to them pre-patch. Go ask your hunter friends/guildies how many there are now. I'd tell you but obviously you won't believe me.
Don't go fanboi sweeping everyone that has complaints under the pile of haters. Many are valid. I like warcraft, but I just don't like the path they are taking with the talents, especially on my hunter. I can survive without volley, though I love it to death(hell in BC it was just for looks anyway), but forcing a generic talent path on me(31 points in 1 tree before you can talent another) is a game breaker. I was a beating most classes in boss dps without the old bottom 2 tiers of marks, now I got to get it because they're better than the only other 4 talent options? Cripes it sucks, my DK has more talent choice than my hunter.
Oh, ask a hunter to duel a similar geared&skilled melee character that they could beat pre-patch, and watch how he does.
I hated WotLK hunter changes so I haven't played mine in a long time. That said - it looks like this guy is doing fine.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
The game seem's to have been dumbed down, simplied, can Blizzard pull off what SOE could not with SWG it's not quite as drastic as what SOE done but damn it seems to have changed to core of the game. Wonder if it will have the same effect on it's player base as the NGE did on SWG.
If WoW was any difficult for you before and some expansion / patch is 'making it easy', you've got some intelligence issues.
The game seem's to have been dumbed down, simplied, can Blizzard pull off what SOE could not with SWG it's not quite as drastic as what SOE done but damn it seems to have changed to core of the game. Wonder if it will have the same effect on it's player base as the NGE did on SWG.
a) not everything has been dumbed down. For example there are now three types of glyphs instead of two
b) WoW, like MMORPGs in general, try to appeal to the masses (hence massive online roleplaying game). The masses dislike complex stuff. As such, MMORPGs are in general pretty straightforward, and thus dumbing down can't really happen
c) WoW has also become easier with the past two expansions, and it didn't hurt the game or the playerbase
So, nope, it won't be that bad. In the end, most people will like the changes. And if you look for complexity, you shouldn't be playing MMORPGs anyway.
The game seem's to have been dumbed down, simplied, can Blizzard pull off what SOE could not with SWG it's not quite as drastic as what SOE done but damn it seems to have changed to core of the game. Wonder if it will have the same effect on it's player base as the NGE did on SWG.
b) WoW, like MMORPGs in general, try to appeal to the masses (hence massive online roleplaying game). The masses dislike complex stuff. As such, MMORPGs are in general pretty straightforward, and thus dumbing down can't really happen
c) WoW has also become easier with the past two expansions, and it didn't hurt the game or the playerbase
This. MMORPGs are simple. The only difficult part is the time sink element. Hardcore MMOs don't require skill. They require time investement.
I can tell you straight up from personal experience - this is not BC, nor is it WotLK. Gone is the day of AOE'ing everything down. DPS'ers will have to learn to control their threat again or die. CC's are very necessary. Healers will have to make choices on who to keep healed if things go bad. This is not the same WoW we had - it is no longer faceroll through dungeons and instances....Blizzard turned the heat up and we're seeing who is a good player and who isn't now. The game is actually challenging once again.
Oh I thought most of the wotlk changes sucked too. Regardless, that hunter had a 6500 gear rating, it's pretty damn easy to stomp 80 newblets in BGs from gear alone regardless of spec or class. Oh right and the Vid was made 10/1/10 Before BM was nerfed on the PTR to be more balanced.
Good try sir.
Originally posted by Teala
I can tell you straight up from personal experience - this is not BC, nor is it WotLK. Gone is the day of AOE'ing everything down. DPS'ers will have to learn to control their threat again or die. CC's are very necessary. Healers will have to make choices on who to keep healed if things go bad. This is not the same WoW we had - it is no longer faceroll through dungeons and instances....Blizzard turned the heat up and we're seeing who is a good player and who isn't now. The game is actually challenging once again.
That part I'm fine with, that part I like. My traps were getting rusty from neglect. Though not much of a game changer as reseting the clock back to vanilla or BC. I truely missed the days when people knew me because of my CC skills, not lolz volley spam.
The game seem's to have been dumbed down, simplied, can Blizzard pull off what SOE could not with SWG it's not quite as drastic as what SOE done but damn it seems to have changed to core of the game. Wonder if it will have the same effect on it's player base as the NGE did on SWG.
The only thing that was "Dumbed down" is now they streamlined the talent system which honestly was terrible before. Pre patch each tree had talents that literally no one would ever pick up. They were essentially useless.
cataclysm is changing the world not the system... at least not as much as nge did.
many wow players got bored by the old world and now the get a new one to explore.
in one point you are right, wow is going to be dumbed down and soon you will only have to start the game and an addon will play the whole game for you.
You don't get it why the game that allready has the most dumbed down system gets dumbed down even more?
Its to make room for Blizzards new MMO, WoW will be the entry level MMO, the new MMO will be the place where the experienced players want to go, the challenging place, the place where stats are intrigueing and choices are meaningfull..
Thats why they keep dumbing down the game to get even more people attached to it. The orriginal goal for WoW development was easy to learn hard to master.... Its always been easy to learn and in my MC days in one of the first raiding guilds the top level content was also hard to master... But these days, its all down the drain for most experienced players.
So everyone should be prepared to jump the GW2 bandwagon...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I can tell you straight up from personal experience - this is not BC, nor is it WotLK. Gone is the day of AOE'ing everything down. DPS'ers will have to learn to control their threat again or die. CC's are very necessary. Healers will have to make choices on who to keep healed if things go bad. This is not the same WoW we had - it is no longer faceroll through dungeons and instances....Blizzard turned the heat up and we're seeing who is a good player and who isn't now. The game is actually challenging once again.
Yup. I mean it doesn't seem that way just yet since we are still in lich but once cata releases it'll be a real blast from the past.
I can tell you straight up from personal experience - this is not BC, nor is it WotLK. Gone is the day of AOE'ing everything down. DPS'ers will have to learn to control their threat again or die. CC's are very necessary. Healers will have to make choices on who to keep healed if things go bad. This is not the same WoW we had - it is no longer faceroll through dungeons and instances....Blizzard turned the heat up and we're seeing who is a good player and who isn't now. The game is actually challenging once again.
Yup. I mean it doesn't seem that way just yet since we are still in lich but once cata releases it'll be a real blast from the past.
Agreed. People are already complaining about things being harder than before the patch when in most cases, every class recieved huge buffs while the PvE content remained about the same. Once Cata hits, it's going to be like running into a brick wall for many players.
For the thousandth time, no. The game is not simplified just because pointless and useless talents were removed from the game and the good talents, the talents everyone love, were left. Seriously, tell me how much sense it made for me to use 5 talent points for 5% more mana. It was stupid to start with and finally its been fixed. The only people truly complaining were ones who do not know how to play their class and are mad that now they cannot rule WOW with a two buttoned, macro'ed, button smashing ignorance. Trust me, after doing a few randoms tanks who can manage threat, DPS who can watch their agro and crowd control that knows what to do will become a precious commodity. EDIT: And Possum is correct. Addons dumb the game down, not the game itself. I raided with healers that could not play if Healbot was broken and Druids who couldn't decurse if Decursive was broken. Play the game minus the addons and we'll chat.
Pointless and useless talents, thats what I keep hearing But for every bad ass player with hybrid builds there is someone out there cursing you for your ignorance. Sub rogues HAD to hybrid because their bottom talents were just not that good, Ghostcrawler was often and repeated critisized for making bad End tree talents, he wants to say he solved a lot of problems with the trees by Forcing everyone to use the same lame end tree talents while at the same time reducing their choices outside the trees. I can see rogues and Shaman being really agitated right off the bat, this puts a HUGE dent in Shadow priest defensive abilities, because they like the other classes that are DPS trees now forced to be PURE DPS as in no PVP dps builds and that is probably correct for healers as well, pigeon holed into being pure healz not BG hybrid healers or specilzed half and half pvp builds. What the simple minded and players that dont want to think dont understand is that this removes not only chioces in the trees but the flexibility just so GC can feel good about himself and pat himself on the back. I mentioned the haste hunter and someone said, well whats wrong with Marksmen hunters being forced into haste builds. What you dont understand is that IS the Marks hunter tree now, a Haste DPS build.. period, no choice, no customization within the tree or any divergence outside of it. Where you could onece take Survival Marks or Marks Survival trees, tie them up and make a custom build for your particular situation now you take cookie cutter hunter builds, and believe me when I made a hybrid Marks/BM hunter I didnt have ANY useless talents, there are not many useless talents.. well maybe a few..... but there are DEFINATELY Many useless players.
As an experienced priest, I'd just like to say that when I built my new shadow spec I was really excited to take him into pvp, which was never the case before. As for those hybrid specs you're talking about - they never existed. A hybrid spec previously meant average-at-best pvp and worthless for raid healing. If you wanted to do dps AND heals, or pvp AND raid, you dual spec'ed. I tried to make a hybrid shadow / heals priest and came up with the best possible build for it. All I accomplished was gimping my dps for crap heals. I tried running my pvp Discipline spec in 5 man heroics to see if I could do good dps while healing. Not really. Don't think I ever did better than 1900 dps in a 5 man while healing. On the other hand, I guarantee that I'll be topping that now with my Smite Disc spec. Honestly, though, it still seems that WoW has been designed to accommodate multiple roles through dual spec'ing. It has not been designed to have hybrid roles work successfully since vanilla, and I'm completely fine with that. At least now you have options of HOW you want to go about doing your dps or healing within your primary spec - which really was not the case before.
An experienced priest is not a good priest ,I know that because in my years as a shadow Priest, one maybe two guys that ever came into a BG played their class correctly, most shadows kill two people and die 30 times in AV. I routinely got over 60 kills in BGs in the Whirlwind battle group,so forgive me if I trust my opinion over yours.
I agree just from looking at it that the DPS looks far better, however survivability looks like garbage. Most pvp Shadows had 15+ points in Disc for a REASON, a few interesting souls threw points into holy. All DPS looks higher, but the thought behind class builds is gone, its just cookie cutter dps specs now. The raid content is probably much better but the PVP content, hybrid builds that cant be predicted is all gone. Its just a DPS hit the other guy and hope he dies before you do.. I mean you can do that on Everquest2.. thats why their pvp is terrible.
Also if you believe hybrid Shadow priest specs were bad for pvp before this patch or any priest spec for that matter, that tells me right away you have No idea what you are talking about. Not a clue.
Well guys told ya so. You are in Ghostcrawlers world now -> World of Ghostcrawlercraft if you think patch 4.0.1 will be the end no its just the beginning of constantly nerfs, overpowering aso. We have a golden rule in the IT "if its not broken don't fix it".
I mean hunters without arrows and a whole new focus mechanic wtf? Why not just convert mana into focus which would have been basically a renaming nothing more. If someone would have told me that they somehow manage to dumb down this game even further I'd have told them "wtf this game can't become any easier" sadly Ghostcrawler again surprised everyone :-)
Posts like the one above are rather false in the idea 'It's been dumbed down!' just because of the talent trees. Here are the problems with it.
1. A majority of the playerbase held similar specs pre-Patch. This whole arguement of choice and options is quite honestly...retarded. There were certain specs for your dps to get max output and most of the playerbase used those specs. It was a rare moment to find someone with a spec that was so 'hybrid' and different. There was a certain way to spec and if you didn't have it then it meant not getting that raid invite or not performing up to standard in pvp etc. So acting like there was a lot of flexibility taken is a stretch of the imagination.
2. There is more to a game than just talent specs. The game was freaking on cruise control with the AoE fests and tanking was easy as can be. The patch changed that but that seems to be ignored by the posters with the whole 'dumbed down' argument. DPS will actually have to watch their threat. AoE tanking is no longer as simple as before. Crowd control is actually needed again. So in other words folks will actually have to think about more than just mash button, kill kill. After Wrath I never had to touch my Feint button as a rogue or Vanish to erase my threat. My mage didn't have to poly a darn thing. The spell became obsolete.
So if having to think more and use more of your abilities is dumbed down then I don't know what to tell you. The game went the complete opposite direction of dumbed down and I applaud them for doing as I am always one on the verge of leaving (if something worth a damn would get released by someone).
Leave it to this board to call a filet mignon a cheap little steak. I bet they think breathing is over simplified and too easy too. I wonder how'd they fair if they stop having to do it?
this argument would actually be pretty good if blizzard didn't breath for its players.
I can tell you straight up from personal experience - this is not BC, nor is it WotLK. Gone is the day of AOE'ing everything down. DPS'ers will have to learn to control their threat again or die. CC's are very necessary. Healers will have to make choices on who to keep healed if things go bad. This is not the same WoW we had - it is no longer faceroll through dungeons and instances....Blizzard turned the heat up and we're seeing who is a good player and who isn't now. The game is actually challenging once again.
This is spot on. Those saying its "being dumbed down even more" either do not play the game or cannot handlte the challenges the changes bring. I find the game better than its been since vanilla.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
I can tell you straight up from personal experience - this is not BC, nor is it WotLK. Gone is the day of AOE'ing everything down. DPS'ers will have to learn to control their threat again or die. CC's are very necessary. Healers will have to make choices on who to keep healed if things go bad. This is not the same WoW we had - it is no longer faceroll through dungeons and instances....Blizzard turned the heat up and we're seeing who is a good player and who isn't now. The game is actually challenging once again.
This is spot on. Those saying its "being dumbed down even more" either do not play the game or cannot handlte the challenges the changes bring. I find the game better than its been since vanilla.
Exactly. Also, are people really complaining about this? This patch has been covered in-depth for the past 2 months now! Everyone had ample time to brace for the changes. And in all honesty, I welcome the changes. Now you have to actually fear normal mobs too!
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
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I can tell you straight up from personal experience - this is not BC, nor is it WotLK. Gone is the day of AOE'ing everything down. DPS'ers will have to learn to control their threat again or die. CC's are very necessary. Healers will have to make choices on who to keep healed if things go bad. This is not the same WoW we had - it is no longer faceroll through dungeons and instances....Blizzard turned the heat up and we're seeing who is a good player and who isn't now. The game is actually challenging once again.
This is spot on. Those saying its "being dumbed down even more" either do not play the game or cannot handlte the challenges the changes bring. I find the game better than its been since vanilla.
What we basically got is the challanging type content from Vanilla/BC with better quality of life and expanded toolkits. As far as "dumbing down" goes NONE of my characters are less complex than before. My priest is a lot more complex and fun to play, instead of healing with a realatively small number of my abilities I now have a reason to use every ability and several new abilities to boot. On top of that if I mix a few smites in with my healing I get a buff that I can build up and eventually use to regain mana and empower healing.
Its WAY more complicated than the old system of infinate mana + power word shield spam + flash heal + pennance = Dead Raid boss. I think a lot of the people that are screaming "everything's broken" are either way too hung up on the numbers or just can't be bothered with the newer more complex system.
I can tell you straight up from personal experience - this is not BC, nor is it WotLK. Gone is the day of AOE'ing everything down. DPS'ers will have to learn to control their threat again or die. CC's are very necessary. Healers will have to make choices on who to keep healed if things go bad. This is not the same WoW we had - it is no longer faceroll through dungeons and instances....Blizzard turned the heat up and we're seeing who is a good player and who isn't now. The game is actually challenging once again.
This is spot on. Those saying its "being dumbed down even more" either do not play the game or cannot handlte the challenges the changes bring. I find the game better than its been since vanilla.
Exactly. Also, are people really complaining about this? This patch has been covered in-depth for the past 2 months now! Everyone had ample time to brace for the changes. And in all honesty, I welcome the changes. Now you have to actually fear normal mobs too!
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Actually, these last two highlighted comments have raised my interest in WOW higher than it has been since I left before TBC launched. A more challenging WOW actually sounds like fun......
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have to eat some serious crow here. My original opinion of the changes were Ohhhh this might make the game more Vanilla. Then, the changes came and there was SO little GOOD or CORRECT info out there. Mostly perpetuated by people (like myself) who had read or heard or whathaveyou how things were playing out. I got on and looking through my toons I was VERY VERY upset. I ragequit. I got mad and posted my own negatives. Not because the game was flawed but because in my OPINION I should not have to relearn all of my lvl 80 classes (for the record Priest (Holy/Shadow) 80, Hunter (BM) 80, Paly (53, heirlooms pre-patch).
Having felt that, I was around for Vanilla. I regularly complain to some of my guildies about having to grind for Blackdragonscale for Warlock mounts and armor and whathaveyou. They've made the game so people could play it while doing quantum mechanics. As a result, instances have become LESS about the instance than 1 'tard in a hurry rushing through lvls, AOEing everything, and making people catch up. #'s became more important than the ability to play your style. You could be blind and deaf and have a 5K GS and be accepted over a GOOD player.
I sat down and started to seriously look at all the mechanics. I started on my Paly because my plan was to have my first tank up at 80 for Cat (he's now at 54 for 2.5 days play time). I found a couple people who have calculated out some of the different possibilities and he formed his own rotation. I built upon that info. I noticed that if I tweaked a couple of my glyphs and changed up the rotation for more of a priority order and I have to say, my Paly right now is SMOKING these guys. As a 50, I was running through Un'goro and PWNING devilsaurs and steg's 3-4 at a time.
I'm sorry, I am now sold thanks to Blizzard that this is a smarter way to go. If this is IN FACT the LAST expansion for WoW, then they need to set themselves up and have a game that 5 year olds can't just log in and smash a macro button.
(hops off my soapbox)
EDIT: Finally, one major complaint is that Blizzard dumbed down talents. I thought this was true to. But seriously take a face value look. ON AVERAGE, 1 or 2, builds exist for a given talent tree and people cookie cutter those bad boys left and right. Why not take out some of the more garbage lines and put in something that is utility? That's all Blizzard did. There is a line you take and you travel on down the line. There are 1-2 utility talents every line or two where characters can focus on things that make more sense to them.
I have to eat some serious crow here. My original opinion of the changes were Ohhhh this might make the game more Vanilla. Then, the changes came and there was SO little GOOD or CORRECT info out there. Mostly perpetuated by people (like myself) who had read or heard or whathaveyou how things were playing out. I got on and looking through my toons I was VERY VERY upset. I ragequit. I got mad and posted my own negatives. Not because the game was flawed but because in my OPINION I should not have to relearn all of my lvl 80 classes (for the record Priest (Holy/Shadow) 80, Hunter (BM) 80, Paly (53, heirlooms pre-patch).
Having felt that, I was around for Vanilla. I regularly complain to some of my guildies about having to grind for Blackdragonscale for Warlock mounts and armor and whathaveyou. They've made the game so people could play it while doing quantum mechanics. As a result, instances have become LESS about the instance than 1 'tard in a hurry rushing through lvls, AOEing everything, and making people catch up. #'s became more important than the ability to play your style. You could be blind and deaf and have a 5K GS and be accepted over a GOOD player.
I sat down and started to seriously look at all the mechanics. I started on my Paly because my plan was to have my first tank up at 80 for Cat (he's now at 54 for 2.5 days play time). I found a couple people who have calculated out some of the different possibilities and he formed his own rotation. I built upon that info. I noticed that if I tweaked a couple of my glyphs and changed up the rotation for more of a priority order and I have to say, my Paly right now is SMOKING these guys. As a 50, I was running through Un'goro and PWNING devilsaurs and steg's 3-4 at a time.
I'm sorry, I am now sold thanks to Blizzard that this is a smarter way to go. If this is IN FACT the LAST expansion for WoW, then they need to set themselves up and have a game that 5 year olds can't just log in and smash a macro button.
(hops off my soapbox)
EDIT: Finally, one major complaint is that Blizzard dumbed down talents. I thought this was true to. But seriously take a face value look. ON AVERAGE, 1 or 2, builds exist for a given talent tree and people cookie cutter those bad boys left and right. Why not take out some of the more garbage lines and put in something that is utility? That's all Blizzard did. There is a line you take and you travel on down the line. There are 1-2 utility talents every line or two where characters can focus on things that make more sense to them.
The Red is what people are doing, Green is what people NEED to be doing and Gold is exactly that. Almost every class has lost "rotations" rotations are DEAD its all about priority. For example on my DK if I need health, or if my diseases are far from running out I can use my runes on a deathstrike to get health. But if my health is fine and my diseases are low I will want to use Fester to reset the cooldown on the diseases.
That's just one example though, there are all kinds of different abilities that can have priority depending on the situation.
I can tell you straight up from personal experience - this is not BC, nor is it WotLK. Gone is the day of AOE'ing everything down. DPS'ers will have to learn to control their threat again or die. CC's are very necessary. Healers will have to make choices on who to keep healed if things go bad. This is not the same WoW we had - it is no longer faceroll through dungeons and instances....Blizzard turned the heat up and we're seeing who is a good player and who isn't now. The game is actually challenging once again.
This is spot on. Those saying its "being dumbed down even more" either do not play the game or cannot handlte the challenges the changes bring. I find the game better than its been since vanilla.
Exactly. Also, are people really complaining about this? This patch has been covered in-depth for the past 2 months now! Everyone had ample time to brace for the changes. And in all honesty, I welcome the changes. Now you have to actually fear normal mobs too!
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Actually, these last two highlighted comments have raised my interest in WOW higher than it has been since I left before TBC launched. A more challenging WOW actually sounds like fun......
Uhm....I'm right there with ya, Kyleran. I have paid next to NO attention to WoW since I left it in February of this year. But I am smelling a hint of vanilla on the breeze of change and it's, in all honestly.....rather compelling.
My family and I haven't made any absolute decision on the matter yet, BUT....we have been discussing the possibilities of playing both WoW AND GW2 in 2011....something that we would have NEVER considered just 8 months ago.
I'm actually feeling a little bit of ....
"Damn you, Blizzard. Just when I feel I'm finally free from your clutches."
I can tell you straight up from personal experience - this is not BC, nor is it WotLK. Gone is the day of AOE'ing everything down. DPS'ers will have to learn to control their threat again or die. CC's are very necessary. Healers will have to make choices on who to keep healed if things go bad. This is not the same WoW we had - it is no longer faceroll through dungeons and instances....Blizzard turned the heat up and we're seeing who is a good player and who isn't now. The game is actually challenging once again.
This is spot on. Those saying its "being dumbed down even more" either do not play the game or cannot handlte the challenges the changes bring. I find the game better than its been since vanilla.
Exactly. Also, are people really complaining about this? This patch has been covered in-depth for the past 2 months now! Everyone had ample time to brace for the changes. And in all honesty, I welcome the changes. Now you have to actually fear normal mobs too!
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Actually, these last two highlighted comments have raised my interest in WOW higher than it has been since I left before TBC launched. A more challenging WOW actually sounds like fun......
Uhm....I'm right there with ya, Kyleran. I have paid next to NO attention to WoW since I left it in February of this year. But I am smelling a hint of vanilla on the breeze of change and it's, in all honestly.....rather compelling.
My family and I haven't made any absolute decision on the matter yet, BUT....we have been discussing the possibilities of playing both WoW AND GW2 in 2011....something that we would have NEVER considered just 8 months ago.
I'm actually feeling a little bit of ....
"Damn you, Blizzard. Just when I feel I'm finally free from your clutches."
/e shakes just1 to her senses.. LOL
As much as I see 1 potential PRO in the changes I see more CONS.. such as:
1) Does Blizzard still support closed end raiding.. Sorry Only 10 or 25 people can join us.. tough shit to everyone else.
2) Will gear still be the primary focus to determine rather a class is invited to raid or not? (aka gear score)
3) Justice Points? This was to replace emblems.. great.. however the vendor ONLY sell's BLUE items, no epics.. NERF??
I think I'll just hold out for GW2 and other games coming around the corner.. Chances of me ever returning to WoW are slim to none and slim just left the building.. I loathe games that are anti social and promote epeen esport..
Comments
Oh how often have you heard of a blood spec DK tank pre-patch? I was one of a small handful on my server where most were frost spec.(atleast before I stopped playing my DK) Ask a hunter/mage/pvp priest the rough % of points they had in other trees pre-patch. ask how many people spent dots in other trees before 70 pre-patch.
As a Hunter main, I'll tell you this much, there were atleast 3 MM specs, 2 survival, 2 beast, and 1 hybrid specs that were all good even with personal variation to them pre-patch. Go ask your hunter friends/guildies how many there are now. I'd tell you but obviously you won't believe me.
Don't go fanboi sweeping everyone that has complaints under the pile of haters. Many are valid. I like warcraft, but I just don't like the path they are taking with the talents, especially on my hunter. I can survive without volley, though I love it to death(hell in BC it was just for looks anyway), but forcing a generic talent path on me(31 points in 1 tree before you can talent another) is a game breaker. I was a beating most classes in boss dps without the old bottom 2 tiers of marks, now I got to get it because they're better than the only other 4 talent options? Cripes it sucks, my DK has more talent choice than my hunter.
Oh, ask a hunter to duel a similar geared&skilled melee character that they could beat pre-patch, and watch how he does.
As an experienced priest, I'd just like to say that when I built my new shadow spec I was really excited to take him into pvp, which was never the case before. As for those hybrid specs you're talking about - they never existed. A hybrid spec previously meant average-at-best pvp and worthless for raid healing. If you wanted to do dps AND heals, or pvp AND raid, you dual spec'ed. I tried to make a hybrid shadow / heals priest and came up with the best possible build for it. All I accomplished was gimping my dps for crap heals. I tried running my pvp Discipline spec in 5 man heroics to see if I could do good dps while healing. Not really. Don't think I ever did better than 1900 dps in a 5 man while healing. On the other hand, I guarantee that I'll be topping that now with my Smite Disc spec. Honestly, though, it still seems that WoW has been designed to accommodate multiple roles through dual spec'ing. It has not been designed to have hybrid roles work successfully since vanilla, and I'm completely fine with that. At least now you have options of HOW you want to go about doing your dps or healing within your primary spec - which really was not the case before.
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
Yes, its all over now. This site will create a wow vets forum and we will all go there and whine for the next 6 years. Seriously though, this is a fun read until the servers go back up.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
I hated WotLK hunter changes so I haven't played mine in a long time. That said - it looks like this guy is doing fine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sliPKoVmxgY
I was pleasantly surprised when I went from Apprentice to full 5 star Elite in under 2 months. I was pleasantly surprised again when I went from Elite to just barely Hardcore in 2 weeks. Apprentice, here I come!
If WoW was any difficult for you before and some expansion / patch is 'making it easy', you've got some intelligence issues.
a) not everything has been dumbed down. For example there are now three types of glyphs instead of two
b) WoW, like MMORPGs in general, try to appeal to the masses (hence massive online roleplaying game). The masses dislike complex stuff. As such, MMORPGs are in general pretty straightforward, and thus dumbing down can't really happen
c) WoW has also become easier with the past two expansions, and it didn't hurt the game or the playerbase
So, nope, it won't be that bad. In the end, most people will like the changes. And if you look for complexity, you shouldn't be playing MMORPGs anyway.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
This. MMORPGs are simple. The only difficult part is the time sink element. Hardcore MMOs don't require skill. They require time investement.
I can tell you straight up from personal experience - this is not BC, nor is it WotLK. Gone is the day of AOE'ing everything down. DPS'ers will have to learn to control their threat again or die. CC's are very necessary. Healers will have to make choices on who to keep healed if things go bad. This is not the same WoW we had - it is no longer faceroll through dungeons and instances....Blizzard turned the heat up and we're seeing who is a good player and who isn't now. The game is actually challenging once again.
Oh I thought most of the wotlk changes sucked too. Regardless, that hunter had a 6500 gear rating, it's pretty damn easy to stomp 80 newblets in BGs from gear alone regardless of spec or class. Oh right and the Vid was made 10/1/10 Before BM was nerfed on the PTR to be more balanced.
Good try sir.
That part I'm fine with, that part I like. My traps were getting rusty from neglect. Though not much of a game changer as reseting the clock back to vanilla or BC. I truely missed the days when people knew me because of my CC skills, not lolz volley spam.
The only thing that was "Dumbed down" is now they streamlined the talent system which honestly was terrible before. Pre patch each tree had talents that literally no one would ever pick up. They were essentially useless.
You don't get it why the game that allready has the most dumbed down system gets dumbed down even more?
Its to make room for Blizzards new MMO, WoW will be the entry level MMO, the new MMO will be the place where the experienced players want to go, the challenging place, the place where stats are intrigueing and choices are meaningfull..
Thats why they keep dumbing down the game to get even more people attached to it. The orriginal goal for WoW development was easy to learn hard to master.... Its always been easy to learn and in my MC days in one of the first raiding guilds the top level content was also hard to master... But these days, its all down the drain for most experienced players.
So everyone should be prepared to jump the GW2 bandwagon...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Yup. I mean it doesn't seem that way just yet since we are still in lich but once cata releases it'll be a real blast from the past.
Agreed. People are already complaining about things being harder than before the patch when in most cases, every class recieved huge buffs while the PvE content remained about the same. Once Cata hits, it's going to be like running into a brick wall for many players.
An experienced priest is not a good priest ,I know that because in my years as a shadow Priest, one maybe two guys that ever came into a BG played their class correctly, most shadows kill two people and die 30 times in AV. I routinely got over 60 kills in BGs in the Whirlwind battle group,so forgive me if I trust my opinion over yours.
I agree just from looking at it that the DPS looks far better, however survivability looks like garbage. Most pvp Shadows had 15+ points in Disc for a REASON, a few interesting souls threw points into holy. All DPS looks higher, but the thought behind class builds is gone, its just cookie cutter dps specs now. The raid content is probably much better but the PVP content, hybrid builds that cant be predicted is all gone. Its just a DPS hit the other guy and hope he dies before you do.. I mean you can do that on Everquest2.. thats why their pvp is terrible.
Also if you believe hybrid Shadow priest specs were bad for pvp before this patch or any priest spec for that matter, that tells me right away you have No idea what you are talking about. Not a clue.
LOL
Truer words could not be spoken.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Posts like the one above are rather false in the idea 'It's been dumbed down!' just because of the talent trees. Here are the problems with it.
1. A majority of the playerbase held similar specs pre-Patch. This whole arguement of choice and options is quite honestly...retarded. There were certain specs for your dps to get max output and most of the playerbase used those specs. It was a rare moment to find someone with a spec that was so 'hybrid' and different. There was a certain way to spec and if you didn't have it then it meant not getting that raid invite or not performing up to standard in pvp etc. So acting like there was a lot of flexibility taken is a stretch of the imagination.
2. There is more to a game than just talent specs. The game was freaking on cruise control with the AoE fests and tanking was easy as can be. The patch changed that but that seems to be ignored by the posters with the whole 'dumbed down' argument. DPS will actually have to watch their threat. AoE tanking is no longer as simple as before. Crowd control is actually needed again. So in other words folks will actually have to think about more than just mash button, kill kill. After Wrath I never had to touch my Feint button as a rogue or Vanish to erase my threat. My mage didn't have to poly a darn thing. The spell became obsolete.
So if having to think more and use more of your abilities is dumbed down then I don't know what to tell you. The game went the complete opposite direction of dumbed down and I applaud them for doing as I am always one on the verge of leaving (if something worth a damn would get released by someone).
this argument would actually be pretty good if blizzard didn't breath for its players.
This is spot on. Those saying its "being dumbed down even more" either do not play the game or cannot handlte the challenges the changes bring. I find the game better than its been since vanilla.
WOW isnt great because it has 12 million players. WOW has 12 million players because its great.
Exactly. Also, are people really complaining about this? This patch has been covered in-depth for the past 2 months now! Everyone had ample time to brace for the changes. And in all honesty, I welcome the changes. Now you have to actually fear normal mobs too!
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
Come Join us at www.globalequestria.com - Meet other fans of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic!
What we basically got is the challanging type content from Vanilla/BC with better quality of life and expanded toolkits. As far as "dumbing down" goes NONE of my characters are less complex than before. My priest is a lot more complex and fun to play, instead of healing with a realatively small number of my abilities I now have a reason to use every ability and several new abilities to boot. On top of that if I mix a few smites in with my healing I get a buff that I can build up and eventually use to regain mana and empower healing.
Its WAY more complicated than the old system of infinate mana + power word shield spam + flash heal + pennance = Dead Raid boss. I think a lot of the people that are screaming "everything's broken" are either way too hung up on the numbers or just can't be bothered with the newer more complex system.
Dem hibbies! Dey be wrong!
Actually, these last two highlighted comments have raised my interest in WOW higher than it has been since I left before TBC launched. A more challenging WOW actually sounds like fun......
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I have to eat some serious crow here. My original opinion of the changes were Ohhhh this might make the game more Vanilla. Then, the changes came and there was SO little GOOD or CORRECT info out there. Mostly perpetuated by people (like myself) who had read or heard or whathaveyou how things were playing out. I got on and looking through my toons I was VERY VERY upset. I ragequit. I got mad and posted my own negatives. Not because the game was flawed but because in my OPINION I should not have to relearn all of my lvl 80 classes (for the record Priest (Holy/Shadow) 80, Hunter (BM) 80, Paly (53, heirlooms pre-patch).
Having felt that, I was around for Vanilla. I regularly complain to some of my guildies about having to grind for Blackdragonscale for Warlock mounts and armor and whathaveyou. They've made the game so people could play it while doing quantum mechanics. As a result, instances have become LESS about the instance than 1 'tard in a hurry rushing through lvls, AOEing everything, and making people catch up. #'s became more important than the ability to play your style. You could be blind and deaf and have a 5K GS and be accepted over a GOOD player.
I sat down and started to seriously look at all the mechanics. I started on my Paly because my plan was to have my first tank up at 80 for Cat (he's now at 54 for 2.5 days play time). I found a couple people who have calculated out some of the different possibilities and he formed his own rotation. I built upon that info. I noticed that if I tweaked a couple of my glyphs and changed up the rotation for more of a priority order and I have to say, my Paly right now is SMOKING these guys. As a 50, I was running through Un'goro and PWNING devilsaurs and steg's 3-4 at a time.
I'm sorry, I am now sold thanks to Blizzard that this is a smarter way to go. If this is IN FACT the LAST expansion for WoW, then they need to set themselves up and have a game that 5 year olds can't just log in and smash a macro button.
(hops off my soapbox)
EDIT: Finally, one major complaint is that Blizzard dumbed down talents. I thought this was true to. But seriously take a face value look. ON AVERAGE, 1 or 2, builds exist for a given talent tree and people cookie cutter those bad boys left and right. Why not take out some of the more garbage lines and put in something that is utility? That's all Blizzard did. There is a line you take and you travel on down the line. There are 1-2 utility talents every line or two where characters can focus on things that make more sense to them.
The Red is what people are doing, Green is what people NEED to be doing and Gold is exactly that. Almost every class has lost "rotations" rotations are DEAD its all about priority. For example on my DK if I need health, or if my diseases are far from running out I can use my runes on a deathstrike to get health. But if my health is fine and my diseases are low I will want to use Fester to reset the cooldown on the diseases.
That's just one example though, there are all kinds of different abilities that can have priority depending on the situation.
Dem hibbies! Dey be wrong!
Uhm....I'm right there with ya, Kyleran. I have paid next to NO attention to WoW since I left it in February of this year. But I am smelling a hint of vanilla on the breeze of change and it's, in all honestly.....rather compelling.
My family and I haven't made any absolute decision on the matter yet, BUT....we have been discussing the possibilities of playing both WoW AND GW2 in 2011....something that we would have NEVER considered just 8 months ago.
I'm actually feeling a little bit of ....
"Damn you, Blizzard. Just when I feel I'm finally free from your clutches."
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
/e shakes just1 to her senses.. LOL
As much as I see 1 potential PRO in the changes I see more CONS.. such as:
1) Does Blizzard still support closed end raiding.. Sorry Only 10 or 25 people can join us.. tough shit to everyone else.
2) Will gear still be the primary focus to determine rather a class is invited to raid or not? (aka gear score)
3) Justice Points? This was to replace emblems.. great.. however the vendor ONLY sell's BLUE items, no epics.. NERF??
I think I'll just hold out for GW2 and other games coming around the corner.. Chances of me ever returning to WoW are slim to none and slim just left the building.. I loathe games that are anti social and promote epeen esport..